[WoW] Druid Thread: CLOSED FOR FLEA SPRAYING

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  • Mobile-DMobile-D Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    That's aggravating. Resto always picked it up, and it was no trouble for Balance to pick it up either. But now it shifts even more points out of Feral (to compensate for the HP nerf) and Feral was really damn tight on points to begin with.

    Mobile-D on
  • BerenBeren Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    King of the Jungle is pretty much necessary for any feral dps. Also, it speeds things up.. umm. a lot. You literally kill one mob twice as fast.

    Beren on
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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Mobile-D wrote: »
    That's aggravating. Resto always picked it up, and it was no trouble for Balance to pick it up either. But now it shifts even more points out of Feral (to compensate for the HP nerf) and Feral was really damn tight on points to begin with.
    Yeah, I was already upset about having to sack a point for Primal Gore. Now I'll feel obligated to get Imp MotW as well, so that's 3 points I really don't want to lose from elsewhere. I really wish Furor were a 3 point talent.

    forty on
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  • LednehLedneh shinesquawk Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Anyone on the PTR have any impressions of how well savage defense works?

    Ledneh on
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  • EriosErios Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Awful question, but I have not druided in forever so if anyone could tell me what the ideal feral spec is at 70, I would be most grateful.

    Erios on
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  • gigawatt666gigawatt666 Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I as well. My cousin gave back a level 50 horde druid, I haven't level'd a druid in quite a while. He is currently Resto. I'd like to ram him to level 80 quickly, feral'd be the way to go? or balance?
    * I've only played my druids as Resto. so im killing things waaaaaaay toooooooo slooooooow.

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  • Killer AvacadoKiller Avacado Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Erios wrote: »
    Awful question, but I have not druided in forever so if anyone could tell me what the ideal feral spec is at 70, I would be most grateful.

    Hoo boy...

    How about some keystone talents (since I'm at work and can't get to a calculator :P )?

    For leveling -

    Ferocity 5/5
    Feral Swiftness 2/2
    Sharpened Claws 3/3
    Pred Strikes 3/3
    Primal Fury 2/2
    Heart of the Wild 5/5
    *Survival of the Fittest 3/3 (optional, but +6% to all stats is really really nice)
    Leader of the Pack 1/1
    * Improved Leader of the Pack 2/2 (optional, but the free heals and mana regen are really handy for minimizing downtime - I'd strongly encourage it... )
    Predatory Instincts 5/5
    King of the Jungle 3/3
    Mangle 1/1
    * Improved Mangle 3/3 (options, very handy for kitty grinding)
    Rend and Tear 5/5 (for Rake + FB combo goodness)
    Naturalist 5/5
    Omen of Clarity 1/1

    Fill in where necessary.

    Killer Avacado on
  • rehtonAesoohCrehtonAesoohC Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    So druids.

    I joined a raiding guild on my druid as feral DPS, and though my gear is totally lacking (I had 2 piece tier 7, and like 7 blues), I was only able to do 3800 DPS on patchwerk. What can I do to improve my DPS?

    As for my rotation, I'd get rake up, then savage roar, then shred to 5 CPs, then rip, while trying to keep rake at 100% uptime. Any suggestions?

    rehtonAesoohC on
    Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Rip at 4CPs used to be the way in TBC, probably still is. And, uh, Mangle a bit?

    reVerse on
  • rehtonAesoohCrehtonAesoohC Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I wasn't worried about mangle, since there was a bear tanking... I just figured he'd be the mangle bitch.

    rehtonAesoohC on
    Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Well, yes, he would be. But you didn't mention the bear.

    reVerse on
  • Killer AvacadoKiller Avacado Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    reVerse wrote: »
    Rip at 4CPs used to be the way in TBC, probably still is. And, uh, Mangle a bit?

    Actually, Rip is now good at 5 CPs because it scales these days (in the past that last combo point just gave a flat damage increase, that's been changed).

    Basically:
    * Keep Savage Roar up
    * Keep Mangle up (assuming you don't have a mangle or trauma bot)
    * Keep Rake ticking
    * Keep Rip ticking
    * Use TF whenever it's up and you have < 40 energy
    * Use Berserk early so you have a shot at using it a second time during the fight, generally after a TF when you're close to full energy

    And, assuming you keep all that going, have plenty of time on all your timers, and are ~35 energy go ahead and toss in the occasional FB to boot.

    (P.S. - 3.8K DPS in half blues isn't exactly something to be ashamed of... )

    Killer Avacado on
  • rtylershawrtylershaw Registered User
    edited April 2009
    I've been deep PvE resto since the beginning of WotLK, and looking forward to dual-spec so I can, you know, actually kill something once in a while. Specifically, other players. The problem is that I suck at PvP but want to have fun anyway.

    Which is more noob-friendly, kitty PvP or boomkin PvP?

    rtylershaw on
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Kitty PvP, probably. Pounce, mangle, rake, rip, and then just switch to bear and outlast them while they're bleeding to death surprisingly quickly.

    Moonkin PvP is more "oh shit that guy is targeting me oh sh well now I'm dead".

    reVerse on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    *Survival of the Fittest 3/3 (optional, but +6% to all stats is really really nice)
    Do not listen to this man. He is out of his mind. Survival of the Fittest is not optional. It is the best talent in the game. Talented daze immunity cannot be passed up, as daze is the gayest thing ever.

    forty on
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  • Killer AvacadoKiller Avacado Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    forty wrote: »
    *Survival of the Fittest 3/3 (optional, but +6% to all stats is really really nice)
    Do not listen to this man. He is out of his mind. Survival of the Fittest is not optional. It is the best talent in the game. Talented daze immunity cannot be passed up, as daze is the gayest thing ever.

    If, like Forty, you hate daze with a passion that shakes you to the very core of your being; then yes SotF is required.

    If you remove the entire daze piece of the equation; then it drops to being a really really good leveling talent that you can pass up but probably shouldn't.

    (how's that?)

    Killer Avacado on
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    forty wrote: »
    *Survival of the Fittest 3/3 (optional, but +6% to all stats is really really nice)
    Do not listen to this man. He is out of his mind. Survival of the Fittest is not optional. It is the best talent in the game. Talented daze immunity cannot be passed up, as daze is the gayest thing ever.

    If, like Forty, you hate daze with a passion that shakes you to the very core of your being; then yes SotF is required.

    If you remove the entire daze piece of the equation; then it drops to being a really really good leveling talent that you can pass up but probably shouldn't.

    (how's that?)

    It's a great tanking talent (mandatory at 80) so if you wanna tank crap while leveling, take it.

    Also, it's good for PvP. Fuck you rogues, I've got no PvP gear and I still have 6% crit reduction. Hah!

    reVerse on
  • CharusCharus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Erios wrote: »
    Awful question, but I have not druided in forever so if anyone could tell me what the ideal feral spec is at 70, I would be most grateful.

    This is what I would spec at 70 if I had to level again. It's basically a tank spec, since that's generally more useful while leveling than a pure cat spec would be. Shred is pretty useless for questing, while a bear spec would make it easier on you to solo group quests and also for tanking instances while leveling up. To complete the spec, pick up Berserk, then the last three points in Rend and Tear, then three points in Protector of the Pack, then three points in Natural Reaction.

    Charus on
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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    SotF and hanging on to gear with high stamina was all I needed to tank leveling instances with a cat spec.

    forty on
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  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Actually, Rip is now good at 5 CPs because it scales these days (in the past that last combo point just gave a flat damage increase, that's been changed).

    Basically:
    * Keep Savage Roar up
    * Keep Mangle up (assuming you don't have a mangle or trauma bot)
    * Keep Rake ticking
    * Keep Rip ticking
    * Use TF whenever it's up and you have < 40 energy
    * Use Berserk early so you have a shot at using it a second time during the fight, generally after a TF when you're close to full energy

    And, assuming you keep all that going, have plenty of time on all your timers, and are ~35 energy go ahead and toss in the occasional FB to boot.

    (P.S. - 3.8K DPS in half blues isn't exactly something to be ashamed of... )
    Isn't the rule to use Finishing Blows with 4 if you land on it because the next attack could end up critting and you essentially losing a combo point? Or has that changed now?

    Opty on
  • CharusCharus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    forty wrote: »
    SotF and hanging on to gear with high stamina was all I needed to tank leveling instances with a cat spec.

    The only two important cat talents I didn't take in that spec are Predatory Instincts and Shredding attacks, though. I used roughly zero shreds leveling from 70-80 and my plummeting crit rating really wasn't bringing me much value from predatory instincts. Questing around, it's all just FF->mangle->(SR after 74)->Rake->TF->Manglespam->FB, there isn't much a cat spec does for you there that a bear spec doesn't do just as well.

    Charus on
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  • AresProphetAresProphet I see a darkness in my fate I'll drive my car without the brakesRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Opty wrote: »
    Actually, Rip is now good at 5 CPs because it scales these days (in the past that last combo point just gave a flat damage increase, that's been changed).

    Basically:
    * Keep Savage Roar up
    * Keep Mangle up (assuming you don't have a mangle or trauma bot)
    * Keep Rake ticking
    * Keep Rip ticking
    * Use TF whenever it's up and you have < 40 energy
    * Use Berserk early so you have a shot at using it a second time during the fight, generally after a TF when you're close to full energy

    And, assuming you keep all that going, have plenty of time on all your timers, and are ~35 energy go ahead and toss in the occasional FB to boot.

    (P.S. - 3.8K DPS in half blues isn't exactly something to be ashamed of... )
    Isn't the rule to use Finishing Blows with 4 if you land on it because the next attack could end up critting and you essentially losing a combo point? Or has that changed now?

    With 2T7 and Glyph of Rip, using Rip always at 5CPs no matter what is worth it. Otherwise you get 10 ticks of ~20% less damage which nullifies the benefit from the glyph or tier set bonus.

    SR is worth using at 4 though.

    FB, if you can squeeze it into the rotation is only worth using at 5CPs.

    But even in the case of SR using it at 4 is worth it if and only if you don't need that extra combo attack (rake/mangle/shred) to maintain 100% uptime on Rip. So if all you can run normally is a 2-finisher cycle (with FB thrown in only when you get lucky streaks of crits on combo attacks) then use SR at 5 every time. It's more energy efficient to use it at 6CPs for a 5CP duration (the equivalent of using it on 5CPs after a Shred crit on 4) than to use it on 4CPs, if that extra potential CP doesn't get FB in. Sometimes you'll take that gamble and get no crits on the next 3 combo moves, and FB won't be worth it and that 4CP SR is a DPS loss. Sometimes you'll crit on the next 2 in a row and you're golden. It's very randiom.

    Figuring this out is more of an art than a science, even if the math is exact from moment to moment. The amount of time you have to decide which move to use is about a 1.5-2 second window, and recognizing that you're generating enough CPs on crits to get FB in efficiently is something you have to get a feel for. Generally you should assume you'll only get in a 2 finisher cycle, but be aware that a 3-crit streak on Shred means that using FB is a DPS gain even if Rip and Rake spend a tick on downtime. Sometimes even 2 ticks of downtime on Rip is worth it. Remember that FB hits for 5 digits usually and a couple of lost ticks on Rip does signifiicantly less.

    Any kind of "rules" for Feral DPS are really more just guidelines. You can often break them to your benefit. If you crit on every single combo move you use, you can get in 2 FBs for every Rip. If you crit at exactly a 40% rate (about average for Heroic-geared raid-buffed druids on raid bosses) you'll never get FB in as a DPS gain. Recognize when you're lucky and take advantage of it. The break-even point for a guaranteed 3-finisher cycle is somewhere around a 66% crit rate which requires a 74% crit rate on your character sheet, and you'll never see that.

    The couple of rules to follow every time: never let bleeds tick without Mangle or Trauma on the target, never use FB or Rake or Rip without SR up, and never use FB without a bleed up. The rest of it is all up to you.

    AresProphet on
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  • rtylershawrtylershaw Registered User
    edited April 2009
    reVerse wrote: »
    Kitty PvP, probably. Pounce, mangle, rake, rip, and then just switch to bear and outlast them while they're bleeding to death surprisingly quickly.

    Moonkin PvP is more "oh shit that guy is targeting me oh sh well now I'm dead".

    Thanks very much. A follow-up question on gear, if you don't mind.

    Gearing up, I plan to prioritize resilience, agility, and stamina. That means starting out with full Eviscerator's and some miscellaneous PvE gear, upgrading the PvE slots with honor-purchased resil gear, and finally replacing the Eviscerator's with better resil gear as I continue to play.

    Or would I be better off just using the highest-stamina, highest-agility PvE gear I can find? (Bear gear, in other words.)

    rtylershaw on
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    somewhere around a 66% crit rate which requires a 74% crit rate on your character sheet, and you'll never see that.
    ?

    forty on
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  • AresProphetAresProphet I see a darkness in my fate I'll drive my car without the brakesRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    forty wrote: »
    somewhere around a 66% crit rate which requires a 74% crit rate on your character sheet, and you'll never see that.
    ?

    Boss crit penalty

    AresProphet on
    oh, gimme some time
    show me the foothold from which I can climb
    yeah, when I feel low
    you show me a signpost for where I should go
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    There's a -8% crit chance on bosses??

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  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    forty wrote: »
    There's a -8% crit chance on bosses??

    I don't think it's that high, but there is a reduced crit chance.

    Edit: Although, I dunno, maybe it is higher for melee. For spells it is estimated to be about 3% on the high end, probably around 2.1%

    End on
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  • DroolDrool Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    So do you need all 3 points in survival of the fittest for the daze immunity, and why doesn't the description mention it?

    Drool on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2009
    Survival of the Fittest affects daze chance? I thought only defense did that.

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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    It's hardcoded into the talent. Survival of the Fittest is after all there to make sure Druids don't need defense, defense affects chance to be dazed because trying to position yourself while dazed is fucking awful, and for this reason Survival of the Fittest has the daze immunity coded into it.

    reVerse on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2009
    Well, that's new to me.

    Sterica on
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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Drool wrote: »
    So do you need all 3 points in survival of the fittest for the daze immunity, and why doesn't the description mention it?

    Because it's not the point of the talent. The daze immunity is a secondary benefit to being defense capped. Warriors, Pallies, and DKs who are defense capped are also immune to daze.

    From WOWwiki:
    All mob creatures have a chance to daze on each melee hit, ranging from 0% to a maximum 40%. Chance to daze is a function of player level, creature weapon skill and player base defense skill.

    Base chance to daze is 20% given that the mob weapon skill and player defense skill are equal. As the player's defense skill increases relative to the mob's weapon skill, chance to daze decreases to a minimum of zero. As defense skill decreases relative to weapon skill, chance to daze increases to a maximum of 40%. This effectively makes chance to daze a function of level difference - mobs that are below a player's level have less chance to daze, while mobs above his level have a higher chance, with equal level mobs having the base 20% chance.

    MuddBudd on
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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    For completeness, 3.0 is when SotF was given the daze immune feature. One thing I never tested is if the immunity only applies to +3 mobs at the highest, while red mobs and up could still daze (just like they can daze someone with 540 defense).

    forty on
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  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    forty wrote: »
    For completeness, 3.0 is when SotF was given the daze immune feature. One thing I never tested is if the immunity only applies to +3 mobs at the highest, while red mobs and up could still daze (just like they can daze someone with 540 defense).

    Well, having tanked Anub on 25-man via the kiting method, I can say I've never been dazed by him.

    MuddBudd on
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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    For completeness, 3.0 is when SotF was given the daze immune feature. One thing I never tested is if the immunity only applies to +3 mobs at the highest, while red mobs and up could still daze (just like they can daze someone with 540 defense).

    Well, having tanked Anub on 25-man via the kiting method, I can say I've never been dazed by him.

    Raid bosses are +3.

    reVerse on
  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    reVerse wrote: »
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    For completeness, 3.0 is when SotF was given the daze immune feature. One thing I never tested is if the immunity only applies to +3 mobs at the highest, while red mobs and up could still daze (just like they can daze someone with 540 defense).

    Well, having tanked Anub on 25-man via the kiting method, I can say I've never been dazed by him.

    Raid bosses are +3.

    Yes but when was the last time you saw a lvl 84 mob?

    MuddBudd on
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  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    forty wrote: »
    For completeness, 3.0 is when SotF was given the daze immune feature. One thing I never tested is if the immunity only applies to +3 mobs at the highest, while red mobs and up could still daze (just like they can daze someone with 540 defense).

    Well, having tanked Anub on 25-man via the kiting method, I can say I've never been dazed by him.

    Raid bosses are +3.

    Yes but when was the last time you saw a lvl 84 mob?

    We will see them in the next expansion, just like in this expansion we saw level 74 mobs.

    reVerse on
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2009
    Boss mobs are level 255!

    Sterica on
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  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    There's fairly noticeable differences between pvp and pve specs for both resto and feral, isn't there?

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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2009
    Feral has small differences. It comes down to whether or not you're taking it up the butt or giving it up the butt.

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