I am certain that there are some jrpgs out there with good stories, I have not played one though. I enjoyed Grandia 2 because of the awesome combat system, but the story was not Hemingway, to put it bluntly. Rpgs like Oblivion, however, is really awesome because you actually get to, you know, play a role instead of having to accept that my character is totally lame and can't do anything right like in Final Fantasy Whatever.
.. so are you actually suggesting that oblivion is Hemingway? or somehow in the same league as pst?
hah. hahha.
Since when does saying "X is not Y" imply anything about "A"
I am certain that there are some jrpgs out there with good stories, I have not played one though. I enjoyed Grandia 2 because of the awesome combat system, but the story was not Hemingway, to put it bluntly. Rpgs like Oblivion, however, is really awesome because you actually get to, you know, play a role instead of having to accept that my character is totally lame and can't do anything right like in Final Fantasy Whatever.
.. so are you actually suggesting that oblivion is Hemingway? or somehow in the same league as pst?
hah. hahha.
Huh? He said he liked the gameplay in Oblivion. He didn't even mention the story.
yeah i sometimes dont bother to read or take in context, kinda ironic.
I am certain that there are some jrpgs out there with good stories, I have not played one though. I enjoyed Grandia 2 because of the awesome combat system, but the story was not Hemingway, to put it bluntly. Rpgs like Oblivion, however, is really awesome because you actually get to, you know, play a role instead of having to accept that my character is totally lame and can't do anything right like in Final Fantasy Whatever.
.. so are you actually suggesting that oblivion is Hemingway? or somehow in the same league as pst?
hah. hahha.
Since when does saying "X is not Y" imply anything about "A"
I enjoy RPGs because they are like interactive stories. That and they take almost no effort on my part to be good. I get annoyed when I start sucking at games, but in RPGs I can just run around killing mobs until I'm good again. In Geometry Wars... I know I'll never get good. :P
For example, the first RPG I tried to play was FF8.
Well this seems to be your problem right here.
A good dose of Oblivion should clear that right up for you.
I could never get into Oblivion. In my opinion the lack of many interesting/memorable characters killed the game for me.
TheSuperWoot on
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
In regards to be plot thing(not just for RPG but in general):
I like how some people think that a story has to be really "deep"(read: heavy-handed a good amount of the time) to be enjoyable. I remember I was like that when I was younger, than I remembered having fun was good too. Not to mention sometimes you don't want person x to give you some profound reason as to why you're slaying an orc while he laments...sometimes you just want to slay an orc.
People should talk more about why they like something instead of going oh boy this sucks or that sucks.
I LIKE PONIES
Pretty ponies?
yes
YES
and i like to role play them in turn based battles
i dont like ponies ponies suck you just dont know any better
Like I said, the OP dude should try out Mass Effect (which I haven't oooer), KotOR, Jade Empire, TWEWY, and possibly Persona 3. Though that one has a lot of the stuff he complains about. The others... don't.
I like RPGs for much of the same reasons I like strategy games. You build you party, like you build your base or empire, and personally command them to destroy your enemies. Its the same feel.
For that reason, I like RPGs with a strong strategic element, such as the Baldur's Gate series, or Ogre Battle/FFT.
Another reason I like RPGs is because the creators often put alot of effort into creating a believable and immersive world, which is fun to explore.
Of course, this thread will likely turn into some sort of jrpg/pc game shitfest, so whatever.
DisruptorX2 on
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
This thread just made me realize:
I don't know why I like RPGs,especially JRPGs. If I think about it, I actually come up with more negative than positive points about them. But I am still looking forward to them, play them and enjoy them a lot.
I really don't know why, but I am a sucker for RPGs.
Klyka on
SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
RPGs at first didn't require "twitch" to win. People can find that to be a plus.
I'm very much a turn-based gamer. I like my turn-based games; I like the pace; I like time to think.
Love my action game, too, or course, and have played far more than I can ever begin to count. But yeah, turn-based is a weakness for me.
You know it's kind of the exact opposite for me. I used to be really big on turn-based myself, now I'm more into action RPGs. I still enjoy turnbased and strategy though(played Persona 3 and FFTA) it's just that I like there to be some kind of twist in them these days.
Except FF8 hate, that is perfectly justifiable. :P
When it comes to RPGs, likeable characters is priority number one. If you like the characters then it doesn't matter as much if the story is ridiculous because those characters make it bearable. But on the flip-side, if the characters are bland and boring, then why would you care about what happens to them in the story?
This is why I like FF7 but not FF12. There are only like 2 characters in FF7 that I don't like and one of them is optional. The story isn't bad either, though it could be better, but the characters seal it for me. FF12 on the other hand... I couldn't really identify with any of the characters. The only one who seemed to have any personality was Balthier (I really thought he was wasted on FF12), so the fact that I found the characters boring and the fact that the story seemed to be happening in spite of them rather than because of them lead me to give up on the game.
I can't say I've played that many western RPGs (thus far, Fallout 1 and 2, KOTOR 1 and 2 (never beat 2, though) Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights 2 and Diablo II), but I find that JRPGs treat their supporting cast better than Western RPGs. JRPGs seem to make the supporting cast's backgrounds more integral to the main plot, whereas in Western RPGs you have to go out of your way to dig up your companions' pasts. I guess making it optional is helpful if you don't like the supporting cast and just want to get on with the story (looking at you, Carth Onasi), but if their background ends up being cool and something that would make you like them, and you just skip it over? Then you end up missing out.
I'm sure people will throw up examples that prove me wrong. I'm just speaking from the games that I've played, though.
I like both Western and JRPGs but I always worry too much that I'm going to be missing content in a Western RPG, or "oh shit was I supposed to go to these cities in this order? did I just miss out on a new party member? why does the whole city hate me now!"
Also, games that are too open (Oblivion) are just boring to me. In fact, Oblivion is probably the single most boring game I have ever played (generic LOTR ripoff fantasy + no memorable characters + huge open world = nothx). I think KOTOR had just the right amount of 'open'. You could pick where to go next, but you never lost sight of why you were going there. Every planet was key to the story, so you didn't end up going to some useless side-place by accident. I don't like it when there's so much optional content shoved into the middle of the game that you forget why you're doing what you're doing or where you're actually supposed to go next. It also kinda kills the urgency if you're on a big 'save the world' mission. I know some people are gonna be all "well why don't you just skip it", but if you're playing something for the first time it's very easy to stumble into the optional stuff without realizing it.
Take Fallout 2 for example, you only need to actually visit like.. what, 3 or so cities to get what you need to complete the story? So places like Modoc and New Reno are pretty useless and are basically only XP wells.
I'm kinda rambling now. I guess I just like the linearity of a JRPG more for story purposes, and I think games like Oblivion go way overboard on the open world thing. It felt like an MMO with no people in it.
I'm not even going to read this because I can imagine all the JRPG bashing that has gone on in here already.
But of course if I tried to say any bad words any those crazy CRPGs I'd get lambasted. I mean, I liked KOTOR well enough, but I tried to play something like NWN2 and I just got bored with it so quickly. Even cheating couldn't make it fun!
So anyway, different people like different things I guess.
Schide on
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
I don't know why I like RPGs,especially JRPGs. If I think about it, I actually come up with more negative than positive points about them. But I am still looking forward to them, play them and enjoy them a lot.
I really don't know why, but I am a sucker for RPGs.
Sir, it's simple. Because they're fun. Really, I can't give you an exact reason I like them myself.
I mean, I like forming parties of ragtag band of heroes out to stop evil, I like leveling the fuck up, sometimes grinding is even good(which is strange since I hate Disgaea and games like it), I like getting the sword of ultimate badassery and seeing trying to find the arena, and while the stories don't always have to be "deep" I find a lot of RPGs story to be pretty endearing and just fun to play. But those can be found in a number of games really, I guess it's just a combination.
RPGs at first didn't require "twitch" to win. People can find that to be a plus.
I'm very much a turn-based gamer. I like my turn-based games; I like the pace; I like time to think.
Love my action game, too, or course, and have played far more than I can ever begin to count. But yeah, turn-based is a weakness for me.
You know it's kind of the exact opposite for me. I used to be really big on turn-based myself, now I'm more into action RPGs. I still enjoy turnbased and strategy though(played Persona 3 and FFTA) it's just that I like there to be some kind of twist in them these days.
I tend to be this way as well nowadays. I think my kids have inflicted me with some sort of ADD or something. In turn based battles I tend to sit there going, "KILL IT KILL KILL IT!" There are definitely some notable exceptions, but in general I like to have a Hack At Evil Things Repeatedly button.
I'm not even going to read this because I can imagine all the JRPG bashing that has gone on in here already.
But of course if I tried to say any bad words any those crazy CRPGs I'd get lambasted. I mean, I liked KOTOR well enough, but I tried to play something like NWN2 and I just got bored with it so quickly. Even cheating couldn't make it fun!
So anyway, different people like different things I guess.
Could be because Kotor is a good game, while NWN 2 isn't.
RPGs at first didn't require "twitch" to win. People can find that to be a plus.
I'm very much a turn-based gamer. I like my turn-based games; I like the pace; I like time to think.
Love my action game, too, or course, and have played far more than I can ever begin to count. But yeah, turn-based is a weakness for me.
You know it's kind of the exact opposite for me. I used to be really big on turn-based myself, now I'm more into action RPGs. I still enjoy turnbased and strategy though(played Persona 3 and FFTA) it's just that I like there to be some kind of twist in them these days.
Well yeah, me too. It's kind of odd, because while I gravitate to turn-based games, I no longer gravitate towards turn-based RPGs. That's because I found I don't enjoy the tone, style and approach of JRPGs that much, while to do like the tone, approach and style of western RPGs. In that way, I'm kind of forced to go teh action RPG route.
If there were some strong turn-based modern western RPGs, though, I'd be all over them.
to the OP: you pretty much answered yourself in your own post, as several others have noted.
i'll speak briefly to the great jrpg/rpg epeenery going on instead.
i like western rpgs. they are closer to the pen and paper stuff that birthed the genre. they are generally more focused on the choices you make affecting the plot. the plots themselves usually try to be something unique, but can often fall back on generic bad guy wants to conquer/destroy the world, and you are the chosen one. meh. some are so focused on plot and choice that they forget to add in morrowind. i mean dark messiah. i mean quality gameplay.
i like japanese rpgs. to me, they are a product of another country's interpretation of the pen and paper stuff that birthed the genre. throw those meaningful plot choices out. these are dungeon crawls and spreadsheet masturbation. where western rpgs can very often fall back on hackneyed vance/tolkein/ad&d archetypes for heroes, magic and monsters (my warmage casts magic arrow at the floating eyeball!), japanese rpgs take more liberties. if your goth wannabe is throwing her teddy-bear boomerang at a pile of monster poo given live by an evil spirit, you might be playing a japanese rpg. for me, their weakness is often plot and characterization- teenage girlboy with smooth chest but spunky personality must seek guidance of master with mysterious past to confront former best friend who is now siding with also androgynous magic guy to explode the galaxy before it is too late.
there are stand-outs for me in both genres. Disgaea. Torment. Happy Fun Get Lucky Date Palace.
wait, scratch that last one.
like the fans of punk and metal before them, the fans of jrpgs and rpgs are meant to be locked forever in meaningless flamey duels of little importance. sometimes you want pizza. sometimes you want domino's.
its best to ignore the opinions of the pretentious and go with your appetite.
They're interactive story books for people who like spreadsheets.
We are legion.
^^^^ correct answer here. I mean, you could expand on it, but when it comes down to it, I like moving numbers around to win, and I like having some interesting characters/story/etc while I do so.
RPGs at first didn't require "twitch" to win. People can find that to be a plus.
I'm very much a turn-based gamer. I like my turn-based games; I like the pace; I like time to think.
Love my action game, too, or course, and have played far more than I can ever begin to count. But yeah, turn-based is a weakness for me.
You know it's kind of the exact opposite for me. I used to be really big on turn-based myself, now I'm more into action RPGs. I still enjoy turnbased and strategy though(played Persona 3 and FFTA) it's just that I like there to be some kind of twist in them these days.
Well yeah, me too. It's kind of odd, because while I gravitate to turn-based games, I no longer gravitate towards turn-based RPGs. That's because I found I don't enjoy the tone, style and approach of JRPGs that much, while to do like the tone, approach and style of western RPGs. In that way, I'm kind of forced to go teh action RPG route.
If there were some strong turn-based modern western RPGs, though, I'd be all over them.
RPGs at first didn't require "twitch" to win. People can find that to be a plus.
I'm very much a turn-based gamer. I like my turn-based games; I like the pace; I like time to think.
Love my action game, too, or course, and have played far more than I can ever begin to count. But yeah, turn-based is a weakness for me.
You know it's kind of the exact opposite for me. I used to be really big on turn-based myself, now I'm more into action RPGs. I still enjoy turnbased and strategy though(played Persona 3 and FFTA) it's just that I like there to be some kind of twist in them these days.
Well yeah, me too. It's kind of odd, because while I gravitate to turn-based games, I no longer gravitate towards turn-based RPGs. That's because I found I don't enjoy the tone, style and approach of JRPGs that much, while to do like the tone, approach and style of western RPGs. In that way, I'm kind of forced to go teh action RPG route.
If there were some strong turn-based modern western RPGs, though, I'd be all over them.
RPGs at first didn't require "twitch" to win. People can find that to be a plus.
I'm very much a turn-based gamer. I like my turn-based games; I like the pace; I like time to think.
Love my action game, too, or course, and have played far more than I can ever begin to count. But yeah, turn-based is a weakness for me.
You know it's kind of the exact opposite for me. I used to be really big on turn-based myself, now I'm more into action RPGs. I still enjoy turnbased and strategy though(played Persona 3 and FFTA) it's just that I like there to be some kind of twist in them these days.
Well yeah, me too. It's kind of odd, because while I gravitate to turn-based games, I no longer gravitate towards turn-based RPGs. That's because I found I don't enjoy the tone, style and approach of JRPGs that much, while to do like the tone, approach and style of western RPGs. In that way, I'm kind of forced to go teh action RPG route.
If there were some strong turn-based modern western RPGs, though, I'd be all over them.
There's the simple fact that it's basically impossible for a turn based RPG to balance common enemies and bosses without sapping all semblance of strategy and difficulty (read: fun) from 90% of the game.
ARPGs will often be retardedly easy too, but smacking those level 1 slimes around in real time is still a hell of a lot more stimulating than hitting [Fight] > [Attack] four times every turn.
In fact, I'm almost positive that turn based combat outside of SRPGs will die the same way that random encounters have in the last few years.
Falstaff on
Still verbing the adjective noun.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
RPGs at first didn't require "twitch" to win. People can find that to be a plus.
I'm very much a turn-based gamer. I like my turn-based games; I like the pace; I like time to think.
Love my action game, too, or course, and have played far more than I can ever begin to count. But yeah, turn-based is a weakness for me.
You know it's kind of the exact opposite for me. I used to be really big on turn-based myself, now I'm more into action RPGs. I still enjoy turnbased and strategy though(played Persona 3 and FFTA) it's just that I like there to be some kind of twist in them these days.
Well yeah, me too. It's kind of odd, because while I gravitate to turn-based games, I no longer gravitate towards turn-based RPGs. That's because I found I don't enjoy the tone, style and approach of JRPGs that much, while to do like the tone, approach and style of western RPGs. In that way, I'm kind of forced to go teh action RPG route.
If there were some strong turn-based modern western RPGs, though, I'd be all over them.
*snip*
Oh man, I forgot I have that on my hard drive at home. MUST PLAY
That has got to be the most beautiful game I've ever seen.
Except FF8 hate, that is perfectly justifiable. :P
When it comes to RPGs, likeable characters is priority number one. If you like the characters then it doesn't matter as much if the story is ridiculous because those characters make it bearable. But on the flip-side, if the characters are bland and boring, then why would you care about what happens to them in the story?
This is why I like FF7 but not FF12. There are only like 2 characters in FF7 that I don't like and one of them is optional. The story isn't bad either, though it could be better, but the characters seal it for me. FF12 on the other hand... I couldn't really identify with any of the characters. The only one who seemed to have any personality was Balthier (I really thought he was wasted on FF12), so the fact that I found the characters boring and the fact that the story seemed to be happening in spite of them rather than because of them lead me to give up on the game.
I can't say I've played that many western RPGs (thus far, Fallout 1 and 2, KOTOR 1 and 2 (never beat 2, though) Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights 2 and Diablo II), but I find that JRPGs treat their supporting cast better than Western RPGs. JRPGs seem to make the supporting cast's backgrounds more integral to the main plot, whereas in Western RPGs you have to go out of your way to dig up your companions' pasts. I guess making it optional is helpful if you don't like the supporting cast and just want to get on with the story (looking at you, Carth Onasi), but if their background ends up being cool and something that would make you like them, and you just skip it over? Then you end up missing out.
I'm sure people will throw up examples that prove me wrong. I'm just speaking from the games that I've played, though.
I like both Western and JRPGs but I always worry too much that I'm going to be missing content in a Western RPG, or "oh shit was I supposed to go to these cities in this order? did I just miss out on a new party member? why does the whole city hate me now!"
Also, games that are too open (Oblivion) are just boring to me. In fact, Oblivion is probably the single most boring game I have ever played (generic LOTR ripoff fantasy + no memorable characters + huge open world = nothx). I think KOTOR had just the right amount of 'open'. You could pick where to go next, but you never lost sight of why you were going there. Every planet was key to the story, so you didn't end up going to some useless side-place by accident. I don't like it when there's so much optional content shoved into the middle of the game that you forget why you're doing what you're doing or where you're actually supposed to go next. It also kinda kills the urgency if you're on a big 'save the world' mission. I know some people are gonna be all "well why don't you just skip it", but if you're playing something for the first time it's very easy to stumble into the optional stuff without realizing it.
Take Fallout 2 for example, you only need to actually visit like.. what, 3 or so cities to get what you need to complete the story? So places like Modoc and New Reno are pretty useless and are basically only XP wells.
I'm kinda rambling now. I guess I just like the linearity of a JRPG more for story purposes, and I think games like Oblivion go way overboard on the open world thing. It felt like an MMO with no people in it.
Massive logical inconsistency aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh
So you dislike Western RPGs for being actual role playing games, criticize them for being stocked with stereotypical characters, where you influence the story and you have choices and an open world to explore and do additional things in... and you like JRPGs for being highly linear affairs, with no real extra content, and you cite the characters as a strength while neglecting to mention most of them are just stereotypical characters anyway? So basically, you like JRPGs because they are a movie with minimal interaction taking place, and dislike Western RPGs for actually living up to what the genre entails?
People are going to prove you wrong because you are making no fucking sense
FYI the extra towns in Fallout 2 had some interesting quests you can go on, where items might be a reward in the end, but usually it was just an interesting story instead. Whereas in JRPGs, any side quests are typically just fetch & return, huge grinds, or.. I can't actually think of any side quests in a JRPG aside from impossibly strong monsters and long optional dungeons.
Oblivion might feel like an MMO with no one in it, but at least it doesn't feel like a world with absolutely no history, nothing going on, no politics, no soul, and no life... in addition to having no one in it (like FFVII!)
When did I say they were full of stereotypical characters?
Dude, I -like- western RPGs, I just wish they would be more up-front about what is going on with their characters. When I play games, I want to burn through the story and see what happens next, and having to do 20 sidequests to find out why my party members have issues gets in the way of seeing the main story play out.
I never criticised the characters or the content in western RPGs, I criticised how you have to dig so much to get at it. Half the time it feels like the designers don't even want you to see all this stuff they've done.
Please re-read my post and stop putting words in my mouth.
When did I say they were full of stereotypical characters?
Dude, I -like- western RPGs, I just wish they would be more up-front about what is going on with their characters. When I play games, I want to burn through the story and see what happens next, and having to do 20 sidequests to find out why my party members have issues gets in the way of seeing the main story play out.
I never criticised the characters or the content in western RPGs, I criticised how you have to dig so much to get at it. Half the time it feels like the designers don't even want you to see all this stuff they've done.
Please re-read my post and stop putting words in my mouth.
The whole point of an RPG is depth in the story and characters. Depth usually means something that lies beneath the surface - so it makes perfect sense to have to dig to find out about what your party members are up to. Even better is when the real meat of the world is hidden beyond your view. That way, you aren't beaten to death with history, and only the people who care can find out about it.
The Western RPG paradigm seems to be more nuanced with more left to self-discovery whereas the JRPG ideal seems to be heavy handed storytelling, beating your audience to death with stupid revelations, dubious motivations, extraordinary reliance on artificial plot devices and arbitrary decisions on the part of the characters (which in no way the player can influence). People who feel obligated to dig for the story like it is some kind of completion game where you need your achievement or 100% are missing the point. If you don't care, ignore it. If it is bothering you, stop doing it. Don't be an idiot.
In a Western RPG, it is likely that if a character is screwed up, it will be explained if you put in the effort. In a JRPG, some random thing will happen and all the sudden this character will open up and magically flower into a normal human being after she (it usually is a she, isn't it?) reveals what happened to make her so weird... if you get any explanation at all.
In a JRPG, some random thing will happen and all the sudden this character will open up and magically flower into a normal human being after she (it usually is a she, isn't it?) reveals what happened to make her so weird... if you get any explanation at all.
In a JRPG, some random thing will happen and all the sudden this character will open up and magically flower into a normal human being after she (it usually is a she, isn't it?) reveals what happened to make her so weird... if you get any explanation at all.
Whoa dude citation needed
Arc the Lad Twilight of the Spirits? That's what it sounds like to me.
In a JRPG, some random thing will happen and all the sudden this character will open up and magically flower into a normal human being after she (it usually is a she, isn't it?) reveals what happened to make her so weird... if you get any explanation at all.
Whoa dude citation needed
For some reason I think it was Star Ocean 2 but it has been ten years since I played that game, so I could be wrong
In a Western RPG, it is likely that if a character is screwed up, it will be explained if you put in the effort. In a JRPG, some random thing will happen and all the sudden this character will open up and magically flower into a normal human being after she (it usually is a she, isn't it?) reveals what happened to make her so weird... if you get any explanation at all.
That 'random thing' usually happens to be an integral plot point that connects with the character's past somehow.
For example, returning to Corel in pursuit of Sephiroth to find that the entire town hates Barret leads Barret to explain why they hate him and why he hates Shinra and joined AVALANCHE. This is not random, it makes sense. It also ties directly in to the main plot of the story.
There's pretty much an example like that for every character in 7. None of it is just them randomly sitting around and someone decides "oh hey, I will open up about my past". It's all triggered by a major story event, or visiting a place familiar to the character, or meeting up with someone from that character's past. I know it's pretty much the same in FFX, but I haven't played the game recently enough to remember specifics off the top of my head.
Whereas in KOTOR, as much as I like the game, you had to go back and make the rounds talking to everyone on the Ebon Hawk after you did each planet to progress in the 'learning about their past' conversation tree. It would have made more sense if instead of having to talk with Mission 6 times to trigger it, the story with her brother just happened as soon as you landed on the right planet. Or, you see her brother and then that prompts you to talk to her, or something. As it stands it's just you walking up to each party member and going "So! Tell me about your past!" How is that any 'deeper' than how character backstories are presented in FF6 or FF7?
Maybe it's just a BioWare thing, since it's basically the same in Mass Effect.
I can't believe nobody has mentioned Chrono Trigger yet. I never play RPG's, and yet Chrono Trigger is one of my favorite games of all time. I think what hooked me was the awesome and incredibly distinct characters. It wasn't so much about customization as it was about upgrading. Essentially, you find a better set of armor or a better weapon and you equip it. I could become more badass without grinding and without having to micro-manage too much.
I'm just now trying out various Final Fantasies and they all seem to be missing that certain magic that CT had. If the ability sphere in FFX, for example, were more linear, I think I'd like it better. Whenever it branches off, I can't help but always feel I'm making the wrong decision.
Another example is the job system in FFIII. My brain short-circuits because any character can be any job at any time. Not only are there character levels, but there are job levels. I get hung up on how to construct my party and flip-flop a lot. As a result, I end up with an underpowered party by the time the endgame rolls around and I can't be bothered to grind out decent enough stats to kill the last boss.
I think for me it's all about a good story and beefing up. Customization can go fuck itself.
Posts
yeah i sometimes dont bother to read or take in context, kinda ironic.
Well this seems to be your problem right here.
A good dose of Oblivion should clear that right up for you.
when b is c and f means q?
I could never get into Oblivion. In my opinion the lack of many interesting/memorable characters killed the game for me.
I like how some people think that a story has to be really "deep"(read: heavy-handed a good amount of the time) to be enjoyable. I remember I was like that when I was younger, than I remembered having fun was good too. Not to mention sometimes you don't want person x to give you some profound reason as to why you're slaying an orc while he laments...sometimes you just want to slay an orc.
But I like fun so whatever I guess.
I liked Oblivion until I got a ways into it and realized I didn't level the way I was supposed to. After that I was pretty much done with it.
This will be here until I receive an apology or Weedlordvegeta get any consequences for being a bully
I LIKE PONIES
Pretty ponies?
Oh why I have just the rpg for you!
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/aprilfools_mlprpg2.jpg
This will be here until I receive an apology or Weedlordvegeta get any consequences for being a bully
yes
YES
and i like to role play them in turn based battles
i dont like ponies ponies suck you just dont know any better
Like I said, the OP dude should try out Mass Effect (which I haven't oooer), KotOR, Jade Empire, TWEWY, and possibly Persona 3. Though that one has a lot of the stuff he complains about. The others... don't.
Love my action game, too, or course, and have played far more than I can ever begin to count. But yeah, turn-based is a weakness for me.
For that reason, I like RPGs with a strong strategic element, such as the Baldur's Gate series, or Ogre Battle/FFT.
Another reason I like RPGs is because the creators often put alot of effort into creating a believable and immersive world, which is fun to explore.
Of course, this thread will likely turn into some sort of jrpg/pc game shitfest, so whatever.
I don't know why I like RPGs,especially JRPGs. If I think about it, I actually come up with more negative than positive points about them. But I am still looking forward to them, play them and enjoy them a lot.
I really don't know why, but I am a sucker for RPGs.
You know it's kind of the exact opposite for me. I used to be really big on turn-based myself, now I'm more into action RPGs. I still enjoy turnbased and strategy though(played Persona 3 and FFTA) it's just that I like there to be some kind of twist in them these days.
Except FF8 hate, that is perfectly justifiable. :P
When it comes to RPGs, likeable characters is priority number one. If you like the characters then it doesn't matter as much if the story is ridiculous because those characters make it bearable. But on the flip-side, if the characters are bland and boring, then why would you care about what happens to them in the story?
This is why I like FF7 but not FF12. There are only like 2 characters in FF7 that I don't like and one of them is optional. The story isn't bad either, though it could be better, but the characters seal it for me. FF12 on the other hand... I couldn't really identify with any of the characters. The only one who seemed to have any personality was Balthier (I really thought he was wasted on FF12), so the fact that I found the characters boring and the fact that the story seemed to be happening in spite of them rather than because of them lead me to give up on the game.
I can't say I've played that many western RPGs (thus far, Fallout 1 and 2, KOTOR 1 and 2 (never beat 2, though) Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights 2 and Diablo II), but I find that JRPGs treat their supporting cast better than Western RPGs. JRPGs seem to make the supporting cast's backgrounds more integral to the main plot, whereas in Western RPGs you have to go out of your way to dig up your companions' pasts. I guess making it optional is helpful if you don't like the supporting cast and just want to get on with the story (looking at you, Carth Onasi), but if their background ends up being cool and something that would make you like them, and you just skip it over? Then you end up missing out.
I'm sure people will throw up examples that prove me wrong. I'm just speaking from the games that I've played, though.
I like both Western and JRPGs but I always worry too much that I'm going to be missing content in a Western RPG, or "oh shit was I supposed to go to these cities in this order? did I just miss out on a new party member? why does the whole city hate me now!"
Also, games that are too open (Oblivion) are just boring to me. In fact, Oblivion is probably the single most boring game I have ever played (generic LOTR ripoff fantasy + no memorable characters + huge open world = nothx). I think KOTOR had just the right amount of 'open'. You could pick where to go next, but you never lost sight of why you were going there. Every planet was key to the story, so you didn't end up going to some useless side-place by accident. I don't like it when there's so much optional content shoved into the middle of the game that you forget why you're doing what you're doing or where you're actually supposed to go next. It also kinda kills the urgency if you're on a big 'save the world' mission. I know some people are gonna be all "well why don't you just skip it", but if you're playing something for the first time it's very easy to stumble into the optional stuff without realizing it.
Take Fallout 2 for example, you only need to actually visit like.. what, 3 or so cities to get what you need to complete the story? So places like Modoc and New Reno are pretty useless and are basically only XP wells.
I'm kinda rambling now. I guess I just like the linearity of a JRPG more for story purposes, and I think games like Oblivion go way overboard on the open world thing. It felt like an MMO with no people in it.
Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
Forget it...
But of course if I tried to say any bad words any those crazy CRPGs I'd get lambasted. I mean, I liked KOTOR well enough, but I tried to play something like NWN2 and I just got bored with it so quickly. Even cheating couldn't make it fun!
So anyway, different people like different things I guess.
Sir, it's simple. Because they're fun. Really, I can't give you an exact reason I like them myself.
I mean, I like forming parties of ragtag band of heroes out to stop evil, I like leveling the fuck up, sometimes grinding is even good(which is strange since I hate Disgaea and games like it), I like getting the sword of ultimate badassery and seeing trying to find the arena, and while the stories don't always have to be "deep" I find a lot of RPGs story to be pretty endearing and just fun to play. But those can be found in a number of games really, I guess it's just a combination.
Hell, still my favorite genre to this day.
Sometimes you just need to hack n' slash.
I tend to be this way as well nowadays. I think my kids have inflicted me with some sort of ADD or something. In turn based battles I tend to sit there going, "KILL IT KILL KILL IT!" There are definitely some notable exceptions, but in general I like to have a Hack At Evil Things Repeatedly button.
Could be because Kotor is a good game, while NWN 2 isn't.
If there were some strong turn-based modern western RPGs, though, I'd be all over them.
i'll speak briefly to the great jrpg/rpg epeenery going on instead.
i like western rpgs. they are closer to the pen and paper stuff that birthed the genre. they are generally more focused on the choices you make affecting the plot. the plots themselves usually try to be something unique, but can often fall back on generic bad guy wants to conquer/destroy the world, and you are the chosen one. meh. some are so focused on plot and choice that they forget to add in morrowind. i mean dark messiah. i mean quality gameplay.
i like japanese rpgs. to me, they are a product of another country's interpretation of the pen and paper stuff that birthed the genre. throw those meaningful plot choices out. these are dungeon crawls and spreadsheet masturbation. where western rpgs can very often fall back on hackneyed vance/tolkein/ad&d archetypes for heroes, magic and monsters (my warmage casts magic arrow at the floating eyeball!), japanese rpgs take more liberties. if your goth wannabe is throwing her teddy-bear boomerang at a pile of monster poo given live by an evil spirit, you might be playing a japanese rpg. for me, their weakness is often plot and characterization- teenage girlboy with smooth chest but spunky personality must seek guidance of master with mysterious past to confront former best friend who is now siding with also androgynous magic guy to explode the galaxy before it is too late.
there are stand-outs for me in both genres. Disgaea. Torment. Happy Fun Get Lucky Date Palace.
wait, scratch that last one.
like the fans of punk and metal before them, the fans of jrpgs and rpgs are meant to be locked forever in meaningless flamey duels of little importance. sometimes you want pizza. sometimes you want domino's.
its best to ignore the opinions of the pretentious and go with your appetite.
^^^^ correct answer here. I mean, you could expand on it, but when it comes down to it, I like moving numbers around to win, and I like having some interesting characters/story/etc while I do so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9Jqs9biPRE&feature=related
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Oh man, I forgot I have that on my hard drive at home. MUST PLAY
There's the simple fact that it's basically impossible for a turn based RPG to balance common enemies and bosses without sapping all semblance of strategy and difficulty (read: fun) from 90% of the game.
ARPGs will often be retardedly easy too, but smacking those level 1 slimes around in real time is still a hell of a lot more stimulating than hitting [Fight] > [Attack] four times every turn.
In fact, I'm almost positive that turn based combat outside of SRPGs will die the same way that random encounters have in the last few years.
Massive logical inconsistency aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh
So you dislike Western RPGs for being actual role playing games, criticize them for being stocked with stereotypical characters, where you influence the story and you have choices and an open world to explore and do additional things in... and you like JRPGs for being highly linear affairs, with no real extra content, and you cite the characters as a strength while neglecting to mention most of them are just stereotypical characters anyway? So basically, you like JRPGs because they are a movie with minimal interaction taking place, and dislike Western RPGs for actually living up to what the genre entails?
People are going to prove you wrong because you are making no fucking sense
FYI the extra towns in Fallout 2 had some interesting quests you can go on, where items might be a reward in the end, but usually it was just an interesting story instead. Whereas in JRPGs, any side quests are typically just fetch & return, huge grinds, or.. I can't actually think of any side quests in a JRPG aside from impossibly strong monsters and long optional dungeons.
Oblivion might feel like an MMO with no one in it, but at least it doesn't feel like a world with absolutely no history, nothing going on, no politics, no soul, and no life... in addition to having no one in it (like FFVII!)
When did I say they were full of stereotypical characters?
Dude, I -like- western RPGs, I just wish they would be more up-front about what is going on with their characters. When I play games, I want to burn through the story and see what happens next, and having to do 20 sidequests to find out why my party members have issues gets in the way of seeing the main story play out.
I never criticised the characters or the content in western RPGs, I criticised how you have to dig so much to get at it. Half the time it feels like the designers don't even want you to see all this stuff they've done.
Please re-read my post and stop putting words in my mouth.
Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
Forget it...
You need to play more rpgs
Edit: No offense there mate
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The whole point of an RPG is depth in the story and characters. Depth usually means something that lies beneath the surface - so it makes perfect sense to have to dig to find out about what your party members are up to. Even better is when the real meat of the world is hidden beyond your view. That way, you aren't beaten to death with history, and only the people who care can find out about it.
The Western RPG paradigm seems to be more nuanced with more left to self-discovery whereas the JRPG ideal seems to be heavy handed storytelling, beating your audience to death with stupid revelations, dubious motivations, extraordinary reliance on artificial plot devices and arbitrary decisions on the part of the characters (which in no way the player can influence). People who feel obligated to dig for the story like it is some kind of completion game where you need your achievement or 100% are missing the point. If you don't care, ignore it. If it is bothering you, stop doing it. Don't be an idiot.
In a Western RPG, it is likely that if a character is screwed up, it will be explained if you put in the effort. In a JRPG, some random thing will happen and all the sudden this character will open up and magically flower into a normal human being after she (it usually is a she, isn't it?) reveals what happened to make her so weird... if you get any explanation at all.
Whoa dude citation needed
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Arc the Lad Twilight of the Spirits? That's what it sounds like to me.
For some reason I think it was Star Ocean 2 but it has been ten years since I played that game, so I could be wrong
That 'random thing' usually happens to be an integral plot point that connects with the character's past somehow.
For example, returning to Corel in pursuit of Sephiroth to find that the entire town hates Barret leads Barret to explain why they hate him and why he hates Shinra and joined AVALANCHE. This is not random, it makes sense. It also ties directly in to the main plot of the story.
There's pretty much an example like that for every character in 7. None of it is just them randomly sitting around and someone decides "oh hey, I will open up about my past". It's all triggered by a major story event, or visiting a place familiar to the character, or meeting up with someone from that character's past. I know it's pretty much the same in FFX, but I haven't played the game recently enough to remember specifics off the top of my head.
Whereas in KOTOR, as much as I like the game, you had to go back and make the rounds talking to everyone on the Ebon Hawk after you did each planet to progress in the 'learning about their past' conversation tree. It would have made more sense if instead of having to talk with Mission 6 times to trigger it, the story with her brother just happened as soon as you landed on the right planet. Or, you see her brother and then that prompts you to talk to her, or something. As it stands it's just you walking up to each party member and going "So! Tell me about your past!" How is that any 'deeper' than how character backstories are presented in FF6 or FF7?
Maybe it's just a BioWare thing, since it's basically the same in Mass Effect.
Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
Forget it...
I'm just now trying out various Final Fantasies and they all seem to be missing that certain magic that CT had. If the ability sphere in FFX, for example, were more linear, I think I'd like it better. Whenever it branches off, I can't help but always feel I'm making the wrong decision.
Another example is the job system in FFIII. My brain short-circuits because any character can be any job at any time. Not only are there character levels, but there are job levels. I get hung up on how to construct my party and flip-flop a lot. As a result, I end up with an underpowered party by the time the endgame rolls around and I can't be bothered to grind out decent enough stats to kill the last boss.
I think for me it's all about a good story and beefing up. Customization can go fuck itself.