So what we've learned today is that different people like RPGs for different reasons, hence the reason why there is so much variety in the genre -- because we all have different wants, needs and desires when it comes to the sort of game we want to play -- and none of the reasons we like RPGs are wrong ... they're just different.
Screw that, its a lot more fun acting like the nerd version of West Side Story.
So what we've learned today is that different people like RPGs for different reasons, hence the reason why there is so much variety in the genre -- because we all have different wants, needs and desires when it comes to the sort of game we want to play -- and none of the reasons we like RPGs are wrong ... they're just different.
Screw that, its a lot more fun acting like the nerd version of West Side Story.
CHORUS
I like to be in America!
O.K. by me in America!
Non-linear plots in America
For a small fee in America!
ASH KETCHUM
I like the city of Tokyo.
PANCAKE
I know a boat you can get on.
ASH KETCHUM
Cherry blossoms in full bloom.
PANCAKE
Hundreds of encounters in each room!
ALL
Planescape T in America,
Neverwinter in America,
Baldur's Gate in America,
Very big deal in America!
RPGs can have great stories. But experiencing the story can be like trying to watch a serious documentary via google vids and a 56K connection. Ideas and concepts are broken up with so much 'buffering' that it becomes impossible to focus and enjoy.
That's a good point. Most RPGs have terrible pacing. I think that's why Chrono Trigger & Phantasy Star IV remain two of the best JRPGs even today; they were actually pretty fast paced with a minimal amount of filler.
I actually think that is one of the best things about TWEWY, that game tramples you at 1000bpm.8-)
Wow, I think I was the first person to mention TWEWY in this thread, guess that must be because all JRPGS are exactly the same, amirite thread? amirite?
/man i hate it when i get to threads right when the stupid ends.
seriously im worried. these are truly the end of days. duke nukem forever is coming out, and the best nintendo ds game on the horizon is a sonic the hedgehog rpg by bioware.
goddamn, i gave the ****er a smg and we went to kick gizmo out of junktown and i like completely forgot npcs are burst happy ****ers and i was standing in front of ian and i sniped out izo and then ian comes along and BOOM, im splatted in one ****ing shot.
goddamn. was so pissed off i decided to ignore it and call it a aibugout and carried on, i then did a **** load of stuff like getting tycho, dogmeat ect ect, and went to the hub, and ran into this guy who's home got taken over, and i decided to go help him out and those ****ing raiders. that bastard killed dogmeat i managed to take him out but then another dude blasted me away.. so decide to end this ironman run properly there. goddamn.
i need to think about my character next time, going to start from scratch tomorrow i think, i need to think about what quests to do and what fights to get into based on my abilities at the time, since i wont be abusing the quicksave feature like i usually do in rpgs like this.. now i got a feel for the game again (and reminded not to give npcs smg's) i can start a proper no reload ironman run.
tell you what tho.. loosing npcs in battle like that with no reloading is quite ****ing awesome feeling, im usualy like "ah damnit, reload!" and now its "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! DOGMEAT!! YOU ****ERS WILL PAY!"
I personally like RPGs but not all of them. I do tend to prefer real-time gameplay over turn-based since to me, there's more action going on and it's usually more challenging and engaging but I don't automatically think a game is bad just because it's turn-based. For example, I like FFVI (haven't finished yet even though I got it over a year ago) even though the combat is not done in real-time (I consider it time-based instead of turn-based). Some turn-based RPGs are not the type that allow you to automatically win just by selecting the "attack" option. In Super Mario RPG, players have to hit a certain button at just the right time to either do more damage or hit more enemies. I believe they're called timed-attacks. Also, hitting a certain button just as an enemy attack reduces damage taken.
As for story, I like story in games but I do not consider it to be nearly as important as gameplay. If a game, regardless of genre, has an awesome story but the gameplay sucks so badly it can be used as a vacuum cleaner, then the game is crap. That being said, I and others who like stories and games do like RPGs because of how story is one of the primary focuses but an RPG should still have good gameplay. If developers is going to put so much emphasis on story and character development that they throw the concept of fun gameplay out the window, then they should just either make a movie or tv show or write a book instead.
My least favorite type of RPG would be JRPG (I do like some of them) since Western RPGs (WRPGs) tend to be less linear in terms of gameplay and sometimes story. Not only that, JRPGs tend to have a problem involving forcing players to level grind (or in FFVI's case spell grind which is one reason why I haven't beaten it yet) just so that they have a chance at making it through the next area or beating a boss. To me, that's just a cheap way of adding length to a game.
In many WRPGs, players can also customize their characters, creating a hero (or possibly villain) they want to play while in JRPGs, the hero is usually some young, overly feminine teen who would make you think he was put in there just to attract horny schoolgirls (Vaan from FFXII is a prime example of this crap). I don't mind playing main characters who are teenagers but I think there are too many overly feminine male characters in JRPGs. The concepts in WRPGs is just suits me better. In fact, I think the concepts of games like FFX-2 and Persona 3 are just bad (not talking about gameplay but gameplay in Persona 3 doesn't interest me very much).
All this being said, I think that the RPG genre is a very good genre. I don't really have a favorite genre since I like all sorts of games by it would probably be either my 2nd or 3rd favorite.
The appeal of RPGs is similar to that of reading fantasy or sci fi. As a reader or player, the book or game provides an escape from the ordinary in the form of a detailed, well developed world and interesting characters. In the case of RPGs, the player assumes the role of one of the characters in a (hopefully) grand and exciting adventure.
Even if it is an illusion, pretending to be a hero or villain is very entertaining.
The typical earmarks of a game in the JRPG genre contain many problems, but I think the core issue is the lack of roleplaying. JRPGs rarely even attempt to provide roleplaying. Dialogue is all one-way, and the player usually doesn't get to interact with NPCs much, if at all. The story is typically linear and leaves little room for player choice. The player does not get to create his character, and in many games, does not even have many choices for customizing him through character advancement. Gameplay, like story, is mostly linear and doesn't give players many options for what to do when.
I realize that the definition of terms changes, and an "RPG" doesn't necessarily have to include roleplaying--it's just a term. That said, I feel that roleplaying is one of the core attractions of the genre, in both gameplay and storytelling. Western RPGs at least attempt to make the player feel like he's roleplaying. JRPGs, usually, do not.
That's the core problem.
Beyond that, I have issues with the gameplay as well. When I sit down and play a JRPG, I often feel like I'm not even playing a game. Character advancement is often shallow, so I don't get much out of the "building your character" part of gameplay. Without interactive dialogue and nonlinear exploration, parts of the game outside of combat lack much in the way of gameplay in general. Combat at least feels like you're playing a game, but it's a game that takes place almost entirely on menus. I'll grant that some modern JRPGs include positioning and other elements, but they still feel very menu-driven, like a series of cutscenes.
Now I could get into the issues of storytelling and art. I won't go into them in-depth, but I will shortly say that I can't stand anime-style art (this is subjective and personal preference) especially when it gets really silly as so many JRPGs do. The stories I feel are often poorly translated to the point where it's sometimes hard just to get past how bad the (non-interactive) dialogue is. The plotting is often very padded, with a ton of repetitive gameplay for each story advancement.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
0
cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited August 2008
There are some JRPGs with branching dialogue paths, but not nearly enough.
Growlanser II, for one, lets the player determine the main character's personality and eventually the factions he sides with. If he has a certain personality type, Wein can't choose certain options during later conversations.
Growlanser III ruined that great start by going the nameless protagonist route after that.
I think IV went the same way, and I know V did. They still have multiple dialogue options, but no personality behind them. Wein's at least a character.
I guess a lot of RPGs have this problem lately. Too much generic, not enough protagonist.
Yeah, I don't universally hate every game in the genre--I would never say that. I'm sure there are some that break the conventions I addressed. I just feel like they are conventions of the genre, and that's the issue.
My favorite JRPGs have been ones that have good gameplay outside of combat. If I could name two, they'd be Super Mario RPG (platforming, puzzles, and lots of secrets to find) and Lufia 2 (lots of great puzzles in most dungeons).
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
I think a big problem here is how the genre's been defined. Actual roleplaying isn't a requisite to fall into this genre. The original pen and paper games were extremely combat-centric, generally because of the "cowboys and indians" problem. ("Bang! You're dead!" "Nuh-uh, you missed! Thwip! You're dead!" "Nuh-uh, you missed!") You need rules to settle contests of character competency, but you rarely need a strong system for determining who "wins" a conversation... if such a thing is even possible. (Compare how D&D handles combat to how it handles diplomacy.) So, while you have two very different takes on the story-telling side (JRPGs tending to give you a clearly-defined protagonist and a strict sequence of events, and WRPGs giving you the freedom to make your own lead character and plot branches) with the same gameplay (more or less) at their core.
Personally, I prefer the JRPG style of storytelling. I like having a clearly defined protagonist character; however, I'll admit that the WRPG style could be appealing once we get past some of the limits of the present technology. Meaningful conversation is one of the toughest challenges in computer science (look up the Turing test sometime), so right now we resort to dialogue trees and other such discrete option selection methods. When trying to "roleplay" through that vehicle, I tend to feel like Arthur trying to get tea out of the Heart of Gold's synthesizers: I wind up with someone almost, but not quite, entirely unlike the character I'm attempting to depict. I find myself picking the option closest to what my character would say, rather than what they actually would say under the circumstances. There's also the potential to wind up with violations of common sense, like Khelgar's insistence that I could not possibly understand what makes Monks tick-- when it's been clearly established that I am a Monk (in NeverWinter Nights 2).
Kupi on
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
0
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
So what we've learned today is that different people like RPGs for different reasons, hence the reason why there is so much variety in the genre -- because we all have different wants, needs and desires when it comes to the sort of game we want to play -- and none of the reasons we like RPGs are wrong ... they're just different.
Screw that, its a lot more fun acting like the nerd version of West Side Story.
CHORUS
I like to be in America!
O.K. by me in America!
Non-linear plots in America
For a small fee in America!
ASH KETCHUM
I like the city of Tokyo.
PANCAKE
I know a boat you can get on.
ASH KETCHUM
Cherry blossoms in full bloom.
PANCAKE
Hundreds of encounters in each room!
ALL
Planescape T in America,
Neverwinter in America,
Baldur's Gate in America,
Very big deal in America!
I want to like traditional PC RPGs. I really do. I have a love/hate relationship with Planescape: Torment. On the one hand, the story and characters are fantastic. On the other hand, the gameplay just feels so clunky. If the game had been a graphic adventure or a JRPG, I'm sure it would be in my top 10 favorite games of all time, but as it is, I've started it many times, but never gotten much past the first few hours before getting sick of the gameplay.
Fallout is a similar story. It came out on GameTap a few weeks ago and I was way excited to try it out. I loved the character creation system, but when the actual game began, I was unimpressed. Clunky interface, awful graphics, slow combat, and kind of bleh objectives (so I can wander around aimlessly or go kill scorpions? Wee.). Maybe it gets better later on, but the gameplay & graphics just turns me off too quickly for me to tell. I'm still really excited about the new one though and hope it fixes my complaints while retaining the elements that I thought were cool about the game.
On the other hand, I like plenty of PC games that rigid fans of the RPG genre wouldn't consider proper RPGs: hack & slash games like Diablo & Titan Quest, hybrid games like Bioshock & its predecessor, and Bioware's console RPGs like Mass Effect & Knights of the Old Republic (which I view as kind of mixes between the Western & Japanese style of RPGs).
BioWare's "console" RPGs (they're PC RPGs as well) aren't really mixes between Western and Japanese RPGs--they're Western RPGs through and through. It's the same basic game structure the company has been using since Baldur's Gate in '98, in any case.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Yeah KOTOR is a by-the-numbers D20 game. It's basically a funnel. At the start you have a few places you can go, and then your choices get narrower and narrower, both in terms of locations and character development.
Yeah KOTOR is a by-the-numbers D20 game. It's basically a funnel. At the start you have a few places you can go, and then your choices get narrower and narrower, both in terms of locations and character development.
I can't say I've played that many western RPGs (thus far, Fallout 1 and 2, KOTOR 1 and 2 (never beat 2, though) Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights 2 and Diablo II), but I find that JRPGs treat their supporting cast better than Western RPGs. JRPGs seem to make the supporting cast's backgrounds more integral to the main plot, whereas in Western RPGs you have to go out of your way to dig up your companions' pasts. I guess making it optional is helpful if you don't like the supporting cast and just want to get on with the story (looking at you, Carth Onasi), but if their background ends up being cool and something that would make you like them, and you just skip it over? Then you end up missing out.
This is about the exact opposite of me. I like both Western & JRPGs, but I very much prefer the way you get to interact with your party members in Western RPGs. Sure, you have to go out of your way to do it... but to me that makes the games more believable. What are the odds that all of your support characters' backstories are going to have some large effect on your overall quest? Pretty slim, I'd say. But in JRPGs this is like an everyday occurrence. Besides which if JRPG developers feel like they need to tie all their characters together it can be extremely clumsy (I'm looking at you FF8.) And if I really dislike a character, I sure as hell don't want to sit through their required backstory junk.
Anyway, what I really like about Western RPGs is getting to sort of dictate my main character's interactions with my party. Almost no JRPGs allow you to have direct conversations that you control with your party members, and that to me is a shame. I like being in control of my relationships with my party members and getting to learn more about them by actually talking to them and selecting dialogue options, rather than just watching cutscenes.
Cheesechick on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
That's what I meant. Sure, the gameplay is D20, but character development and plot are much more similar to the Japanese school of roleplaying.
Weeellll... no. I've never seen a JRPG that can give you 5-6 different gameplay experiences depending on how much of bastard you choose to be. Pretty much every JRPG I've ever played gives you almost the exactly the same development for a character no matter how many different times you play the game. JRPGS tend to give a set, definite character progression while character progression in Western RPGs depends very much on what you want out of a character.
Now, a proper Western Old West RPG is something I would kill for. An Old West JRPG, however, would cause me to kill.
So what we've learned today is that different people like RPGs for different reasons, hence the reason why there is so much variety in the genre -- because we all have different wants, needs and desires when it comes to the sort of game we want to play -- and none of the reasons we like RPGs are wrong ... they're just different.
Screw that, its a lot more fun acting like the nerd version of West Side Story.
CHORUS
I like to be in America!
O.K. by me in America!
Non-linear plots in America
For a small fee in America!
ASH KETCHUM
I like the city of Tokyo.
PANCAKE
I know a boat you can get on.
ASH KETCHUM
Cherry blossoms in full bloom.
PANCAKE
Hundreds of encounters in each room!
ALL
Planescape T in America,
Neverwinter in America,
Baldur's Gate in America,
Very big deal in America!
Unless JRPGs respond to this in song. WRPGs win by default.
I like to be a big god-like hero in a big world. Feeds my ego.
Bioware games are excellent at really drawing you into the game world and giving you the illusion of choice, despite being quite linear. I need that illusion; most other linear RPGs I simply can't play.
I also can't stand grinding. Again, Bioware is quite good at giving you many meaningful battles and fewer random enemies (at least to some degree). BG2 never felt like playing was a chore, but other similar games have; I can't quite quantify what makes Bioware games different.
If a game doesn't have those elements, it has to have a really really great story and sympathetic stories (this is why I also love many adventure games) or script (VtM: Bloodlines).
That's what I meant. Sure, the gameplay is D20, but character development and plot are much more similar to the Japanese school of roleplaying.
Now, a proper Western Old West RPG is something I would kill for. An Old West JRPG, however, would cause me to kill.
I'm early in the process of developing a space western RPG. With more riding horses on planets and less flying between them. Does that count?
By the way, I agree completely Janson--it's virtually impossible to have true roleplaying in a single-player game, but BioWare's approach creates the illusion of choice effectively enough that, at the best moments of their games, you really do feel like you have the fate of the world(s) in your hands.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Maybe it's Bioware's scripting. You nearly always get to choose what your character says - even if all of the outcomes are the same, the differences in the choices of how you can say it are great enough for you to stamp your own personality upon your character. In many other linear RPGs, any time a big chunk o' storyline comes up you simply have to lay down the controls and watch an extended cut scene, where you have absolutely no input into what your character says.
I like to be a big god-like hero in a big world. Feeds my ego.
Bioware games are excellent at really drawing you into the game world and giving you the illusion of choice, despite being quite linear. I need that illusion; most other linear RPGs I simply can't play.
I also can't stand grinding. Again, Bioware is quite good at giving you many meaningful battles and fewer random enemies (at least to some degree). BG2 never felt like playing was a chore, but other similar games have; I can't quite quantify what makes Bioware games different.
If a game doesn't have those elements, it has to have a really really great story and sympathetic stories (this is why I also love many adventure games) or script (VtM: Bloodlines).
Bioware hardly has a monopoly on those elements, its a staple of WRPGs. See Fallout, Planescape, Arcanum, The Witcher, Bloodlines, etc.
That's what I meant. Sure, the gameplay is D20, but character development and plot are much more similar to the Japanese school of roleplaying.
Weeellll... no. I've never seen a JRPG that can give you 5-6 different gameplay experiences depending on how much of bastard you choose to be. Pretty much every JRPG I've ever played gives you almost the exactly the same development for a character no matter how many different times you play the game. JRPGS tend to give a set, definite character progression while character progression in Western RPGs depends very much on what you want out of a character.
Now, a proper Western Old West RPG is something I would kill for. An Old West JRPG, however, would cause me to kill.
Wild Arms 3 caused me to kill. Fortunately I was under 18 at the time.
I like to be a big god-like hero in a big world. Feeds my ego.
Bioware games are excellent at really drawing you into the game world and giving you the illusion of choice, despite being quite linear. I need that illusion; most other linear RPGs I simply can't play.
I also can't stand grinding. Again, Bioware is quite good at giving you many meaningful battles and fewer random enemies (at least to some degree). BG2 never felt like playing was a chore, but other similar games have; I can't quite quantify what makes Bioware games different.
If a game doesn't have those elements, it has to have a really really great story and sympathetic stories (this is why I also love many adventure games) or script (VtM: Bloodlines).
Bioware hardly has a monopoly on those elements, its a staple of WRPGs. See Fallout, Planescape, Arcanum, The Witcher, Bloodlines, etc.
I know, except apart from Bloodlines and KotOR2, games by other developers just haven't been able to capture my interest. Nope, not even Fallout or Planescape. Not sure exactly why, but there you go. That's why I specifically included Bioware in my post, because for me they're the only company to have hit upon a magic gaming formula that I like.
Janson on
0
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited August 2008
I want a game in which the entire gameplay part is being made by a western developer while the entire story/design/art side is being made by japanese.
I want a game in which the entire gameplay part is being made by a western developer while the entire story/design/art side is being made by japanese.
Who would hande the dialogue in this equation?
That was what I was thinking.
Also I'd rather have characters look a little awkward than look like bad anime.
Well I said the story would be done by the japanese so I guess they would handle the dialogue, but now that you mention it,I'd rather have the western developer handle it. Or maybe both do it 50/50?
I want a game in which the entire gameplay part is being made by a western developer while the entire story/design/art side is being made by japanese.
Who would hande the dialogue in this equation?
That was what I was thinking.
Also I'd rather have characters look a little awkward than look like bad anime.
Well I said the story would be done by the japanese so I guess they would handle the dialogue, but now that you mention it,I'd rather have the western developer handle it. Or maybe both do it 50/50?
The art in Fallout (like all the Pip Boy stuff) > the art in most JRPGs.
I want a game in which the entire gameplay part is being made by a western developer while the entire story/design/art side is being made by japanese.
Who would hande the dialogue in this equation?
That was what I was thinking.
Also I'd rather have characters look a little awkward than look like bad anime.
Well I said the story would be done by the japanese so I guess they would handle the dialogue, but now that you mention it,I'd rather have the western developer handle it. Or maybe both do it 50/50?
Why the hell would you let the Japanese handle the story? How many tales of teenagers destined to save the world from certain destruction at the hands of an ultimate evil do you need?
psycojester on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
I want a game in which the entire gameplay part is being made by a western developer while the entire story/design/art side is being made by japanese.
Who would hande the dialogue in this equation?
That was what I was thinking.
Also I'd rather have characters look a little awkward than look like bad anime.
Well I said the story would be done by the japanese so I guess they would handle the dialogue, but now that you mention it,I'd rather have the western developer handle it. Or maybe both do it 50/50?
Why the hell would you let the Japanese handle the story? How many tales of teenagers destined to save the world from certain destruction at the hands of an ultimate evil do you need?
well there's also enough "amnesia ridden mature man/woman has to save world from generic orc race/evil slave race lead by generic sorcerer/uber fighter".
I'm just sick of tolkien and orcs and stuff and I'd rather have some fairy tale like world.
But yeah,let them do the story 50/50 too.
I'm just speculating here, but do you think there is a correlation between people who like anime and people who like JRPGs? I know I like both, and I can't remember which I started with.
I think they're completely different kinds of games, though. Bosses in Final Fantasies tend to be pretty consistent. Take, say, Scarmiglione. He's weak against fire. Keep using fire, heal when he brings the pain, repeat.
Compare that to someone like the final boss from Digital Devil Saga 2. It has six different forms, so you have to constantly switch out the right players with their appropriate elemental weaknesses/strengths, and exploit the boss to kill it.
(Then again, there's also the Cerberus in DDS1, which is made of fire and has no weaknesses, which is basically just Atlus saying 'screw you'.)
That's one thing I really like about the SMT series. In FF there's usually not much difference between an enemy casting Fire or Ice on you, you'll take similar amounts of damage either way. (You could equip stuff to nullify elemental damage, but equipment like that doesn't come often.) But the different innate resistances your characters can have in SMT makes things more interesting.
That's one thing I really like about the SMT series. In FF there's usually not much difference between an enemy casting Fire or Ice on you, you'll take similar amounts of damage either way. (You could equip stuff to nullify elemental damage, but equipment like that doesn't come often.) But the different innate resistances your characters can have in SMT makes things more interesting.
I know that one of the things that turned me on to SMT was that buffs/debuffs and magic really mattered. I remember when I was in college, I bought Final Fantasy Tactics for the PS1. I started playing it and I meticulously built my party with a good balance of melee and magic, cultivating black mages and summoners and the like, and couldn't dream of a battle without my white mage.
One day I came home from work and found my roommate playing. I checked out his party and he had a team full of ninjas. I started telling him how dumb that was and then watched him destroy everything. At the time I was really upset. I'm messing around with Crisis Core right now and I all I do is spam attack all day because it's the most effective. Of course I'm only about three or four hours in so that might change, but I see no reason at this point to use anything other than my weapon.
Try doing that in SMT. See how long you last. I started playing and I had no idea what the hell a tarukaja was. I learned in a hurry though.
Posts
I wonder if we could figure out the real defining quality of a CRPG was.
Doubtful. In the end it'd probably be something like 'visible stats'
Screw that, its a lot more fun acting like the nerd version of West Side Story.
CHORUS
I like to be in America!
O.K. by me in America!
Non-linear plots in America
For a small fee in America!
ASH KETCHUM
I like the city of Tokyo.
PANCAKE
I know a boat you can get on.
ASH KETCHUM
Cherry blossoms in full bloom.
PANCAKE
Hundreds of encounters in each room!
ALL
Planescape T in America,
Neverwinter in America,
Baldur's Gate in America,
Very big deal in America!
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
I actually think that is one of the best things about TWEWY, that game tramples you at 1000bpm.8-)
Wow, I think I was the first person to mention TWEWY in this thread, guess that must be because all JRPGS are exactly the same, amirite thread? amirite?
/man i hate it when i get to threads right when the stupid ends.
As for story, I like story in games but I do not consider it to be nearly as important as gameplay. If a game, regardless of genre, has an awesome story but the gameplay sucks so badly it can be used as a vacuum cleaner, then the game is crap. That being said, I and others who like stories and games do like RPGs because of how story is one of the primary focuses but an RPG should still have good gameplay. If developers is going to put so much emphasis on story and character development that they throw the concept of fun gameplay out the window, then they should just either make a movie or tv show or write a book instead.
My least favorite type of RPG would be JRPG (I do like some of them) since Western RPGs (WRPGs) tend to be less linear in terms of gameplay and sometimes story. Not only that, JRPGs tend to have a problem involving forcing players to level grind (or in FFVI's case spell grind which is one reason why I haven't beaten it yet) just so that they have a chance at making it through the next area or beating a boss. To me, that's just a cheap way of adding length to a game.
In many WRPGs, players can also customize their characters, creating a hero (or possibly villain) they want to play while in JRPGs, the hero is usually some young, overly feminine teen who would make you think he was put in there just to attract horny schoolgirls (Vaan from FFXII is a prime example of this crap). I don't mind playing main characters who are teenagers but I think there are too many overly feminine male characters in JRPGs. The concepts in WRPGs is just suits me better. In fact, I think the concepts of games like FFX-2 and Persona 3 are just bad (not talking about gameplay but gameplay in Persona 3 doesn't interest me very much).
All this being said, I think that the RPG genre is a very good genre. I don't really have a favorite genre since I like all sorts of games by it would probably be either my 2nd or 3rd favorite.
Even if it is an illusion, pretending to be a hero or villain is very entertaining.
I realize that the definition of terms changes, and an "RPG" doesn't necessarily have to include roleplaying--it's just a term. That said, I feel that roleplaying is one of the core attractions of the genre, in both gameplay and storytelling. Western RPGs at least attempt to make the player feel like he's roleplaying. JRPGs, usually, do not.
That's the core problem.
Beyond that, I have issues with the gameplay as well. When I sit down and play a JRPG, I often feel like I'm not even playing a game. Character advancement is often shallow, so I don't get much out of the "building your character" part of gameplay. Without interactive dialogue and nonlinear exploration, parts of the game outside of combat lack much in the way of gameplay in general. Combat at least feels like you're playing a game, but it's a game that takes place almost entirely on menus. I'll grant that some modern JRPGs include positioning and other elements, but they still feel very menu-driven, like a series of cutscenes.
Now I could get into the issues of storytelling and art. I won't go into them in-depth, but I will shortly say that I can't stand anime-style art (this is subjective and personal preference) especially when it gets really silly as so many JRPGs do. The stories I feel are often poorly translated to the point where it's sometimes hard just to get past how bad the (non-interactive) dialogue is. The plotting is often very padded, with a ton of repetitive gameplay for each story advancement.
Growlanser II, for one, lets the player determine the main character's personality and eventually the factions he sides with. If he has a certain personality type, Wein can't choose certain options during later conversations.
Growlanser III ruined that great start by going the nameless protagonist route after that.
I think IV went the same way, and I know V did. They still have multiple dialogue options, but no personality behind them. Wein's at least a character.
I guess a lot of RPGs have this problem lately. Too much generic, not enough protagonist.
My favorite JRPGs have been ones that have good gameplay outside of combat. If I could name two, they'd be Super Mario RPG (platforming, puzzles, and lots of secrets to find) and Lufia 2 (lots of great puzzles in most dungeons).
I think a big problem here is how the genre's been defined. Actual roleplaying isn't a requisite to fall into this genre. The original pen and paper games were extremely combat-centric, generally because of the "cowboys and indians" problem. ("Bang! You're dead!" "Nuh-uh, you missed! Thwip! You're dead!" "Nuh-uh, you missed!") You need rules to settle contests of character competency, but you rarely need a strong system for determining who "wins" a conversation... if such a thing is even possible. (Compare how D&D handles combat to how it handles diplomacy.) So, while you have two very different takes on the story-telling side (JRPGs tending to give you a clearly-defined protagonist and a strict sequence of events, and WRPGs giving you the freedom to make your own lead character and plot branches) with the same gameplay (more or less) at their core.
Personally, I prefer the JRPG style of storytelling. I like having a clearly defined protagonist character; however, I'll admit that the WRPG style could be appealing once we get past some of the limits of the present technology. Meaningful conversation is one of the toughest challenges in computer science (look up the Turing test sometime), so right now we resort to dialogue trees and other such discrete option selection methods. When trying to "roleplay" through that vehicle, I tend to feel like Arthur trying to get tea out of the Heart of Gold's synthesizers: I wind up with someone almost, but not quite, entirely unlike the character I'm attempting to depict. I find myself picking the option closest to what my character would say, rather than what they actually would say under the circumstances. There's also the potential to wind up with violations of common sense, like Khelgar's insistence that I could not possibly understand what makes Monks tick-- when it's been clearly established that I am a Monk (in NeverWinter Nights 2).
I love you.
Fallout is a similar story. It came out on GameTap a few weeks ago and I was way excited to try it out. I loved the character creation system, but when the actual game began, I was unimpressed. Clunky interface, awful graphics, slow combat, and kind of bleh objectives (so I can wander around aimlessly or go kill scorpions? Wee.). Maybe it gets better later on, but the gameplay & graphics just turns me off too quickly for me to tell. I'm still really excited about the new one though and hope it fixes my complaints while retaining the elements that I thought were cool about the game.
On the other hand, I like plenty of PC games that rigid fans of the RPG genre wouldn't consider proper RPGs: hack & slash games like Diablo & Titan Quest, hybrid games like Bioshock & its predecessor, and Bioware's console RPGs like Mass Effect & Knights of the Old Republic (which I view as kind of mixes between the Western & Japanese style of RPGs).
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How so? They're better than any Japanese RPG I've ever played.
And worse than Planescape: Torment.
Note that "Western RPG" does not mean "strictly nonlinear open world".
This thread made me think of a wild west JRPG or at least a wild west rpg.
Enough blathering, on with the reading!
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
It's called Wild Arms.
Well, the closest thing, at least.
Wild Arms 3 being the closest to the Wild West theme, at least of the first three.
This is about the exact opposite of me. I like both Western & JRPGs, but I very much prefer the way you get to interact with your party members in Western RPGs. Sure, you have to go out of your way to do it... but to me that makes the games more believable. What are the odds that all of your support characters' backstories are going to have some large effect on your overall quest? Pretty slim, I'd say. But in JRPGs this is like an everyday occurrence. Besides which if JRPG developers feel like they need to tie all their characters together it can be extremely clumsy (I'm looking at you FF8.) And if I really dislike a character, I sure as hell don't want to sit through their required backstory junk.
Anyway, what I really like about Western RPGs is getting to sort of dictate my main character's interactions with my party. Almost no JRPGs allow you to have direct conversations that you control with your party members, and that to me is a shame. I like being in control of my relationships with my party members and getting to learn more about them by actually talking to them and selecting dialogue options, rather than just watching cutscenes.
Weeellll... no. I've never seen a JRPG that can give you 5-6 different gameplay experiences depending on how much of bastard you choose to be. Pretty much every JRPG I've ever played gives you almost the exactly the same development for a character no matter how many different times you play the game. JRPGS tend to give a set, definite character progression while character progression in Western RPGs depends very much on what you want out of a character.
Now, a proper Western Old West RPG is something I would kill for. An Old West JRPG, however, would cause me to kill.
Unless JRPGs respond to this in song. WRPGs win by default.
Bioware games are excellent at really drawing you into the game world and giving you the illusion of choice, despite being quite linear. I need that illusion; most other linear RPGs I simply can't play.
I also can't stand grinding. Again, Bioware is quite good at giving you many meaningful battles and fewer random enemies (at least to some degree). BG2 never felt like playing was a chore, but other similar games have; I can't quite quantify what makes Bioware games different.
If a game doesn't have those elements, it has to have a really really great story and sympathetic stories (this is why I also love many adventure games) or script (VtM: Bloodlines).
I'm early in the process of developing a space western RPG. With more riding horses on planets and less flying between them. Does that count?
By the way, I agree completely Janson--it's virtually impossible to have true roleplaying in a single-player game, but BioWare's approach creates the illusion of choice effectively enough that, at the best moments of their games, you really do feel like you have the fate of the world(s) in your hands.
Maybe it's Bioware's scripting. You nearly always get to choose what your character says - even if all of the outcomes are the same, the differences in the choices of how you can say it are great enough for you to stamp your own personality upon your character. In many other linear RPGs, any time a big chunk o' storyline comes up you simply have to lay down the controls and watch an extended cut scene, where you have absolutely no input into what your character says.
Bioware hardly has a monopoly on those elements, its a staple of WRPGs. See Fallout, Planescape, Arcanum, The Witcher, Bloodlines, etc.
Wild Arms 3 caused me to kill. Fortunately I was under 18 at the time.
That was what I was thinking.
Also I'd rather have characters look a little awkward than look like bad anime.
Well I said the story would be done by the japanese so I guess they would handle the dialogue, but now that you mention it,I'd rather have the western developer handle it. Or maybe both do it 50/50?
The art in Fallout (like all the Pip Boy stuff) > the art in most JRPGs.
Why the hell would you let the Japanese handle the story? How many tales of teenagers destined to save the world from certain destruction at the hands of an ultimate evil do you need?
well there's also enough "amnesia ridden mature man/woman has to save world from generic orc race/evil slave race lead by generic sorcerer/uber fighter".
I'm just sick of tolkien and orcs and stuff and I'd rather have some fairy tale like world.
But yeah,let them do the story 50/50 too.
I know that one of the things that turned me on to SMT was that buffs/debuffs and magic really mattered. I remember when I was in college, I bought Final Fantasy Tactics for the PS1. I started playing it and I meticulously built my party with a good balance of melee and magic, cultivating black mages and summoners and the like, and couldn't dream of a battle without my white mage.
One day I came home from work and found my roommate playing. I checked out his party and he had a team full of ninjas. I started telling him how dumb that was and then watched him destroy everything. At the time I was really upset. I'm messing around with Crisis Core right now and I all I do is spam attack all day because it's the most effective. Of course I'm only about three or four hours in so that might change, but I see no reason at this point to use anything other than my weapon.
Try doing that in SMT. See how long you last. I started playing and I had no idea what the hell a tarukaja was. I learned in a hurry though.