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Psychiatry, drugs, science, me, and Scientology, too.

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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    That's the thing. So far my boss is fine with it. And I thought he would be, that's why I started questioning him in the first place. But in a few months, once the season is over (working masonry renos), he'll probably be going in for some auditing. That'll be when the real test starts, because if he actually has a problem with me then it'll come up when they're prepping him for the auditing, and then he'll have to do something about me.

    Besides that, there's pressure from my mom, who doesn't really know what I think (though I'm sure she suspects). She wants me to get back on course. In fact, today she tried to get me in to help her with some students of hers (she's a course supervisor at a local mission). There was a little bit of an argument, but I got out of it; I just don't want to do that anymore.

    Originally I was going to find other work and get settled away from my family before I started anything overt, but working with my boss just tried my patience to the limit and I eventually started talking out. Once I put my feet on that path there was no turning back.

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    CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Out of curiosity, is the Scientology philosophy completely against all drugs, including caffeine and such, or just medical drugs?

    Cervetus on
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    themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I've been through the mild mill (when I say "mild" I mean drugs that a GP wouldn't be frightend to prescribe--I admit that a GP prescribing psych drugs might butress a Scientologist argument against meds). I went nuts ten years ago when I started having anxiety attacks out of the blue. My initial though was that it was physical (when you think you are dying and your heartrate shoots to 200 for no reason AND you have an instinctive belief that your "mind" is somehow not part of your physiology, you think this way). In the last ten years I've been on Paxil, Cymbala, Effexor, Wellbutrin and a fuckton of Alprazolam. I've also done a lot of illegal drugs including methamphetamine, heroin (and tons of other opiates), cocaine (never liked it) and alcohol. Of all the drugs I've taken, I was the most functional on methampetamine but had to ditch it because of the side effects. Of the legal drugs I've taken, Effexor was the best except for the non life threatening but nonetheless fatal side effect of not being able to have an orgasm. Wellbutrin was the best compromise. I decided to ditch that a year ago and try to go drug free and while I've managed the anxiety to some extent, I've encountered depression. I can't say whether the drugs are a cause or the lack of drugs are the cause. I can say that sometimes I wish I could ditch rationality for a cure. I suspect a lot of people who believe in religion have found their cure and I can't really blame them for buying into it.

    themightypuck on
    “Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius

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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    That's the strangest (and maybe the worst) side effect I've ever heard of. :/
    Cervetus wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, is the Scientology philosophy completely against all drugs, including caffeine and such, or just medical drugs?

    It's pretty muddy.

    There are religious reasons against drugs - that they cloud your perceptions and screw with your mental image pictures (memories and engrams), and that they temporarily remove the "bank" (all your negative emotions and ideas, basically), but bring it back on twice as hard once you come down. They're also seen as a crutch -- you're taking drugs to handle the symptoms, but you never handle the real problem.

    There are other ideas, like that all drugs stay in your body's fatty tissue for years after you've stopped taking them (this is the basis for the Purification Rundown, along with an absurd Cold War inspired fear of radiation). Doing the Purif is basically taking hand fulls of vitamins (you take a lot) and running around and hanging out in a sauna for hours. The idea is that you sweat all the bad stuff (toxins lol) out. My last boss (also a Scientologist), and I'm hoping he wasn't completely serious but he seemed so at the time, actually thought that the reason we sweat is not to keep cool, but it's to flush the toxins out of our bodies.

    There are certain drugs that are especially bad. If you take them then you become an "Illegal PC (pre-Clear)," which means that you can never receive auditing by normal means. You have the option to petition that, though, and if you work hard enough it usually gets lifted. I know someone who did just that. The list of drugs that will make you an Illegal PC is pretty short. LSD used to be the main one, but now its Prozac, and a few others in that family. This is driven home in briefings and headlines: "America: 200,000 new Illegal PCs every year," in response to a supposed rise in psych drugs throughout the school system in the US.

    For legal drugs things are pretty lax. I suppose somebody decided that certain things just were, and there was no point in fighting it. Most of these rules were formed in the 60s and 70s, LRH died in the 80s and they couldn't really change anything after that. Besides, LRH smoked and there are many pictures of him doing so. Lot's of Scientologists, at least the ones I know, smoke, and they all drink coffee. Nobody really cares outside of the normal health reasons. Drinking is expressly allowed, in moderation.

    I'd say it's strange that nobody mentions the way Clears and OTs still smoke, but it's pretty clear to me that most Scientologists have formed a few massive, and key, blind spots over the years.

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    voodoosporkvoodoospork Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    It looks like just about everyone in here has had much better experiences with mental health professionals than I have.

    I was diagnosed with depression when I was 14 or so. I went through the typical battery of drugs with nothing really helping until even my parents gave up and just let it be. I spent a lot of time in therapy, talking in circles. I think that probably the meds had failed so epically that therapy couldn't even begin to take hold.

    I went without medication for about 5 years, managing it myself. I became pretty eccentric in my coping mechanisms, and some of the thought in Buddhism actually did help a lot. Unfortunately, things did eventually come to a head, and I was forced to seek help once again. I was in my early twenties now and I got a brand new diagnosis. Now I was bipolar with some extra personality disorders thrown in for fun.

    This time the meds were really fun. My cocktail changed every 4-6 weeks for a little under two years. 0% of these cocktails were without serious side effects. Severe fatigue was the common denominator with some nausea and/or appetite loss (This was actually pretty bad since I weigh about 120lbs soaking wet), depending on the month. The best part is how those meds fuck with cognition. I was used to being a pretty smart guy. Now, I could barely get through a sentence without flubbing it. I could still get my head around things in time, but it was just so clumsy. I guess it would be different if any of these medications had actually helped me. Sadly, I was even less functional than I was when I started this routine.

    Needless to say, I decided to go unmedicated once again. I did really well this time. I was quite content with life in general. That lasted for a few years until my situation changed drastically and my coping mechanisms were no longer available. Back to the doctors. After about 3 months of playing med roulette I was finally on something that didn't make me quite as sick and actually did take some of the edge off. Some of the mental fuzziness remains, but I don't feel completely retarded.

    I guess I'm a qualified success story now. I'd be off of this poison in a heartbeat if my circumstances were different, but the situation demands that I stay on them.

    I don't think you'll ever meet a doctor that won't reach for his prescription pad the second you say the word bipolar, so I tend to think that we probably are over-medicated. Maybe if your biggest problem is relatively mild depression, they might skip the drugs. But if we're not overmedicating now, I can't help but wonder what would have to happen for that to become the case.

    As a disclaimer, I know that drugs do help a lot of people. I'm not disputing the soundness of the theory behind their use. I'm just saying doctors tend to just take shots in the dark and hope for the best. This isn't really a criticism so much as an observation on the magnitude of the task set before them. Scientology's stance on mental health is twisted and all, but these guys aren't supermen either.

    voodoospork on
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    CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Page- wrote: »
    I'd say it's strange that nobody mentions the way Clears and OTs still smoke, but it's pretty clear to me that most Scientologists have formed a few massive, and key, blind spots over the years.

    That's pretty much true of everyone, even if they're not religious. It seems like making a bunch of exceptions and assumptions would be extra work, but forcing things to make sense is actually the harder way. Even with top notch scientists they'll sometimes make hypothesis based on what they want to believe, although the advantage to actually pursuing the truth is you can admit that it was a mistake and correct it.

    As someone in a Christian family I certainly see a lot of bending and fudging myself.

    Cervetus on
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    JebusUDJebusUD Adventure! Candy IslandRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Sounds like people aren't learning how to cope with their problems. I wonder where this comes from?

    Didn't LRH do speed and LSD? or somthing like that, locked in a room on his boat? Wasn't there some weird thing with him and little boys too?

    JebusUD on
    and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
    but they're listening to every word I say
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Of the legal drugs I've taken, Effexor was the best except for the non life threatening but nonetheless fatal side effect of not being able to have an orgasm.
    Page- wrote: »
    That's the strangest (and maybe the worst) side effect I've ever heard of. :/

    I assume that the second quote here relates to the first.

    Sexual side effects are very very common. Difficulty having an orgasm is one of the most common side effects of antidepressants.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    I don't think you'll ever meet a doctor that won't reach for his prescription pad the second you say the word bipolar, so I tend to think that we probably are over-medicated. Maybe if your biggest problem is relatively mild depression, they might skip the drugs. But if we're not overmedicating now, I can't help but wonder what would have to happen for that to become the case.
    Bipolar is an extremely serious diagnosis if accurate, and any doctor who understands that will be prescribing once the diagnosis is definitive because bipolar is an extremely serious diagnosis. I don't think it's possible to "overmedicate" for bipolar syndrome. Maybe it's possible to overdiagnose?, but I don't think that's the situation -- I yield to Feral's tack where the only populations where anything seems to be overdiagnosed is in the upper-middle class and above where psychiatric care is actually affordable and common, and even then I don't personally believe that much of anything besides maybe vanilla depression or anxiety are being overdiagnosed.

    Every mental hospital I've been interred in, every time, was occupied in majority by bipolar diagnoses -- almost all of whom who gone off their medication, or who hadn't been medicated prior. I seriously just don't understand how one can 'overmedicate' for bipolar.

    Oboro on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Oboro wrote: »
    I yield to Feral's tack where the only populations where anything seems to be overdiagnosed is in the upper-middle class and above where psychiatric care is actually affordable and common, and even then I don't personally believe that much of anything besides maybe vanilla depression or anxiety are being overdiagnosed.

    Bipolar disorder is a special case. There's some concern that bipolar disorder, particularly in the US, is a catch-all diagnosis for people with other, more complicated psychological conditions.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    Oboro wrote: »
    I yield to Feral's tack where the only populations where anything seems to be overdiagnosed is in the upper-middle class and above where psychiatric care is actually affordable and common, and even then I don't personally believe that much of anything besides maybe vanilla depression or anxiety are being overdiagnosed.

    Bipolar disorder is a special case. There's some concern that bipolar disorder, particularly in the US, is a catch-all diagnosis for people with other, more complicated psychological conditions.
    Are you speaking cross-axes, or sticking to Axis I and physiological things? I can see how more nuanced disorders of personality or cognition could be interpreted as bipolar and consequently waved off, but can't think of anything on Axis I that it could be used as a catch-all for.

    Oboro on
    words
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    voodoosporkvoodoospork Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    The fact that my best times, spanning years, were unmedicated leads me to believe that a prudent rate of medication for bipolar might be somewhere under 100%. A real problem for me is that doctors manage to convince your entire support system that, despite their complete failure to produce any results whatsoever, the only road to happiness is a chemical shotgun tactic.

    The accuracy of diagnosis is a valid concern as well. In my case, we're one for one at best.

    voodoospork on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Oboro wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Oboro wrote: »
    I yield to Feral's tack where the only populations where anything seems to be overdiagnosed is in the upper-middle class and above where psychiatric care is actually affordable and common, and even then I don't personally believe that much of anything besides maybe vanilla depression or anxiety are being overdiagnosed.

    Bipolar disorder is a special case. There's some concern that bipolar disorder, particularly in the US, is a catch-all diagnosis for people with other, more complicated psychological conditions.
    Are you speaking cross-axes, or sticking to Axis I and physiological things? I can see how more nuanced disorders of personality or cognition could be interpreted as bipolar and consequently waved off, but can't think of anything on Axis I that it could be used as a catch-all for.

    Cross-axes. Borderline personality disorder, for instance.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    Oboro wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Oboro wrote: »
    I yield to Feral's tack where the only populations where anything seems to be overdiagnosed is in the upper-middle class and above where psychiatric care is actually affordable and common, and even then I don't personally believe that much of anything besides maybe vanilla depression or anxiety are being overdiagnosed.

    Bipolar disorder is a special case. There's some concern that bipolar disorder, particularly in the US, is a catch-all diagnosis for people with other, more complicated psychological conditions.
    Are you speaking cross-axes, or sticking to Axis I and physiological things? I can see how more nuanced disorders of personality or cognition could be interpreted as bipolar and consequently waved off, but can't think of anything on Axis I that it could be used as a catch-all for.

    Cross-axes. Borderline personality disorder, for instance.

    And psychotic disorders. Every now and then you find somebody with a pretty serious delusions with a BPD diagnosis, and it sounds like people went, "man, you have really really weird manic phases."

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    The fact that my best times, spanning years, were unmedicated leads me to believe that a prudent rate of medication for bipolar might be somewhere under 100%. A real problem for me is that doctors manage to convince your entire support system that, despite their complete failure to produce any results whatsoever, the only road to happiness is a chemical shotgun tactic.

    The accuracy of diagnosis is a valid concern as well. In my case, we're one for one at best.
    I have never met a doctor who tried to sabotage my or anyone else's support system by warding them away and saying, "No! Just let the meds work!"

    On the contrary, I've met psychiatrists who refused to work with me as a patient if I was not also actively participating in therapy at the time. Flat-out refused.

    Oboro on
    words
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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I've been thinking, it it's possible, it would be nice to just meet and speak with a psychiatrist, ask them what they do and why, how they feel about the drugs and any negative image they may have in pop-culture. I've never really known anyone who went into that field, though, and I'm not sure where I'd go to talk to someone in a non-patient capacity. There are a few psych hospitals I know of, I guess I could start there.

    No word from my boss yet. I sent him a bunch of anecdotal stories and testimonies from people who've been helped by psychs and psych drugs. I guess it'll be tomorrow.

    I honestly don't know that much about the side effects of these drugs. I don't know anyone who's on them, and I don't watch TV (especially not American TV, where I've heard commercials for drugs are pretty much all the time). It kind of makes sense that antidepressants would have that sort of side-effect, I just thought it was strange when I read it. :/

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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Page- wrote: »
    I've been thinking, it it's possible, it would be nice to just meet and speak with a psychiatrist, ask them what they do and why, how they feel about the drugs and any negative image they may have in pop-culture. I've never really known anyone who went into that field, though, and I'm not sure where I'd go to talk to someone in a non-patient capacity. There are a few psych hospitals I know of, I guess I could start there.

    No word from my boss yet. I sent him a bunch of anecdotal stories and testimonies from people who've been helped by psychs and psych drugs. I guess it'll be tomorrow.

    I honestly don't know that much about the side effects of these drugs. I don't know anyone who's on them, and I don't watch TV (especially not American TV, where I've heard commercials for drugs are pretty much all the time). It kind of makes sense that antidepressants would have that sort of side-effect, I just thought it was strange when I read it. :/

    Where's the closest college with a decent psych program to you?

    Also, the number one thing you need to know about side-effects: they're rare. Incredibly rare if everything was done right in getting the FDA's approval, which I will immediately admit is not always the case.

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I wouldn't know which ones have a good psych program. I could ask my friends.

    I know there are a few places downtown. CAMH (Centre for Addiction and Mental Health) is pretty big, and I've walked past it many times on my way to donate blood. I think that'll probably be the first place I try.

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    voodoosporkvoodoospork Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Oboro wrote: »
    I have never met a doctor who tried to sabotage my or anyone else's support system by warding them away and saying, "No! Just let the meds work!"

    On the contrary, I've met psychiatrists who refused to work with me as a patient if I was not also actively participating in therapy at the time. Flat-out refused.

    No, they're just so sure of themselves that they convince everyone that you just aren't trying if you're off the meds. I'll admit that my track record with therapy has been pretty spotty. I won't bore you with the details, but the whole routine gets pretty familiar after a while.
    Also, the number one thing you need to know about side-effects: they're rare. Incredibly rare if everything was done right in getting the FDA's approval, which I will immediately admit is not always the case.

    That depends entirely on what the drug is intended to treat.

    voodoospork on
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Oboro wrote: »
    I have never met a doctor who tried to sabotage my or anyone else's support system by warding them away and saying, "No! Just let the meds work!"

    On the contrary, I've met psychiatrists who refused to work with me as a patient if I was not also actively participating in therapy at the time. Flat-out refused.

    No, they're just so sure of themselves that they convince everyone that you just aren't trying if you're off the meds. I'll admit that my track record with therapy has been pretty spotty. I won't bore you with the details, but the whole routine gets pretty familiar after a while.
    If you just go off the meds, yeah, you just aren't trying. You should talk to your psychiatrist about alternative medications if side effects are a problem, or if you feel that the medicine isn't helping. If your psychiatrist is totally unreceptive, find a new one, but don't just throw the pills out the window and say, "Whoops! System fails!"

    Sorry, but you sound just like the typical revolving-door psychiatric patient. You profess to know more than your professionals, you are self-admittedly 'spotty' with your therapy ... yeah, it does get pretty familiar after a while. I see this all the time. :P

    Oboro on
    words
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited August 2008
    Anecdote anecdote lol:

    My wife suffers from panic disorder. She was a trainwreck for awhile during college, before she was diagnosed. Like, often couldn't get out of bed because she was literally terrified she was going to die. In the interest of full disclosure, I was often inadvertently a dick, because I was convinced that most instances of her not wanting to do something was just her not having enough willpower and that it could be remedied by just deciding she was going to get off her butt and act. I just plain didn't get it, and thought I was helping. I really, really wasn't.

    Eventually she got help and was placed on various drugs, starting with Paxil and moving through assorted cocktails. Paxil is fucking evil. It may work on some folks, and I won't claim that it's universally horrible, but if it's not properly prescribed, it is the goddamned devil. Over the years, her doctors refined her medications to the point where she went from hiding under the covers to being able to confront the world with various limitations to being more-or-less normal.

    Now she's on Zoloft (as well as assorted drugs to combat her allergies and asthma, which are terrible). She can ride elevators, where once she couldn't. She once skipped a job interview because she showed up to the building and couldn't find the stairs. She doesn't live in terror. She can deal emotionally with her asthma, whereas once she was crippled with fear of it. When you're afraid of death, having an affliction that makes you unable to breathe properly really fucking sucks. I've spent more than a few times rocking her on the ground while reassuring her that she wasn't going to die. She's still too scared to fly, but she at least entertains the idea that she'll conquer that fear, some day. Once, she would've laughed at the idea, then imagined herself on a plane and had a panic attack.

    If it wasn't for psychiatric medication, she would've either committed suicide long ago, or - as a best-case scenario - she would currently live huddled in a bedroom somewhere, constantly miserable. People who claim mind-altering medications are ineffective or do more harm than good are, to be blunt, plain wrong.

    That said, I can empathize with the skeptics, because it's impossible to get it when you haven't been there, either as the afflicted or as one of their loved ones. I do think drugs are over-prescribed, especially to children. I think many people rely excessively on doctors when they could just get by with some common sense or home remedy (no, not homeopathic shit, fuck that noise). And I have to be bleeding from multiple locations or have a severed limb before I will generally submit and go to the doctor. But I still recognize that mind-altering medications are extremely useful when properly used, and that to some people they are an absolute necessity.

    Also, do Scientologists also object to pain-killers? Like, ibuprofen and the like? Because those are mind-altering drugs, too. They operate on the pain-centers of your brain, from what I understand, which is not functionally different from any other drug. At the end of the day, something is fucking with your brain.

    ElJeffe on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Oboro wrote: »
    If you just go off the meds, yeah, you just aren't trying. You should talk to your psychiatrist about alternative medications if side effects are a problem, or if you feel that the medicine isn't helping. If your psychiatrist is totally unreceptive, find a new one, but don't just throw the pills out the window and say, "Whoops! System fails!"

    Sorry, but you sound just like the typical revolving-door psychiatric patient. You profess to know more than your professionals, you are self-admittedly 'spotty' with your therapy ... yeah, it does get pretty familiar after a while. I see this all the time. :P

    Yeah, I was kind of thinking this but I wasn't quite sure how to say it.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    BarrakkethBarrakketh Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Paxil is fucking evil. It may work on some folks, and I won't claim that it's universally horrible, but if it's not properly prescribed, it is the goddamned devil.

    Elaborate on that. My experience with it (prescribed as an antidepressant) was that I basically couldn't tell if it was actually doing anything or not and didn't suffer from any side effects. That was back when I was around 14 years old.

    Barrakketh on
    Rollers are red, chargers are blue....omae wa mou shindeiru
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited August 2008
    Barrakketh wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Paxil is fucking evil. It may work on some folks, and I won't claim that it's universally horrible, but if it's not properly prescribed, it is the goddamned devil.

    Elaborate on that. My experience with it (prescribed as an antidepressant) was that I basically couldn't tell if it was actually doing anything or not and didn't suffer from any side effects. That was back when I was around 14 years old.

    In Julie's case, sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, and it may or may not have amplified the magnitude of her actual panic attacks. The biggest issue, though, was trying to go off it. Three weeks of agonizing withdrawal and wishing you were dead ftw.

    ElJeffe on
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    OboroOboro __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    Oboro wrote: »
    If you just go off the meds, yeah, you just aren't trying. You should talk to your psychiatrist about alternative medications if side effects are a problem, or if you feel that the medicine isn't helping. If your psychiatrist is totally unreceptive, find a new one, but don't just throw the pills out the window and say, "Whoops! System fails!"

    Sorry, but you sound just like the typical revolving-door psychiatric patient. You profess to know more than your professionals, you are self-admittedly 'spotty' with your therapy ... yeah, it does get pretty familiar after a while. I see this all the time. :P

    Yeah, I was kind of thinking this but I wasn't quite sure how to say it.
    It's funnier this way, because it's coming from Oboro. :P

    Oboro on
    words
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Yeah, of all the antidepressants, Paxil is one of the most likely to cause difficult withdrawals. It's a pretty common problem.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Also, do Scientologists also object to pain-killers? Like, ibuprofen and the like? Because those are mind-altering drugs, too. They operate on the pain-centers of your brain, from what I understand, which is not functionally different from any other drug. At the end of the day, something is fucking with your brain.

    They're generally avoided, and there are other ways of handling everyday pain or headaches. They're still seen as harmful, though. But it's really a cost/benefits thing; you're not supposed to be popping Aspirin whenever you feel a headache coming on, but if you're in the hospital for surgery then anaesthesia is unavoidable. It's kind of just dealing with the modern world. You can only completely avoid drugs up to a point.

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    voodoosporkvoodoospork Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Oboro wrote: »
    Oboro wrote: »
    I have never met a doctor who tried to sabotage my or anyone else's support system by warding them away and saying, "No! Just let the meds work!"

    On the contrary, I've met psychiatrists who refused to work with me as a patient if I was not also actively participating in therapy at the time. Flat-out refused.

    No, they're just so sure of themselves that they convince everyone that you just aren't trying if you're off the meds. I'll admit that my track record with therapy has been pretty spotty. I won't bore you with the details, but the whole routine gets pretty familiar after a while.
    If you just go off the meds, yeah, you just aren't trying. You should talk to your psychiatrist about alternative medications if side effects are a problem, or if you feel that the medicine isn't helping. If your psychiatrist is totally unreceptive, find a new one, but don't just throw the pills out the window and say, "Whoops! System fails!"

    Sorry, but you sound just like the typical revolving-door psychiatric patient. You profess to know more than your professionals, you are self-admittedly 'spotty' with your therapy ... yeah, it does get pretty familiar after a while. I see this all the time. :P

    Out of curiosity, what is an acceptable length of time to play guinea pig? It's not like they didn't have ample opportunity to find a cocktail that worked the last time I spent two years in a drug-induced haze. I didn't show up for a few tries and quit. Should I have gone for three years? Five? Ten?

    With regards to therapists, they all think their insights are so profound. Yes, I know my perspective is skewed by a physical problem in my brain. Yes, I know my behavior can be self-destructive. Yes, I know things will inevitably get better. I also know that I can't really internalize any of these things because of a quirk of brain chemistry. My record with therapy isn't spotty because I didn't go while under treatment. It's spotty because I'm difficult to engage a lot of the time. There are no communication problems, I just don't have any traumatic stories to tell. I have had a pretty average middle-class life with few problems of substance. There's no secret origin story other than a genetic history of mental illness.

    I've spent years at a time playing ball. I really don't claim to know any more than these people. I'm just unimpressed by their success rate.

    I would guess that it's pretty easy to be flippant when your tremors have never been bad enough to interfere with even feeding yourself. Tardive dyskinesia is just a pair of funny words before people start giving you odd looks. It would be nice to be typical, because maybe then one of these doctors would be able to effectively treat me.

    I think this has gotten a little off base though. I just figured someone should present a dissenting opinion. Psychiatry isn't malevolent like you might hear in Scientology, but you don't have to go far to find someone with first hand experience on how shoddy our understanding of the mind is. The state of things will get better as time goes on, but there is a certain level of overconfidence prevalent in my experience.

    voodoospork on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited August 2008
    Page- wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Also, do Scientologists also object to pain-killers? Like, ibuprofen and the like? Because those are mind-altering drugs, too. They operate on the pain-centers of your brain, from what I understand, which is not functionally different from any other drug. At the end of the day, something is fucking with your brain.

    They're generally avoided, and there are other ways of handling everyday pain or headaches. They're still seen as harmful, though. But it's really a cost/benefits thing; you're not supposed to be popping Aspirin whenever you feel a headache coming on, but if you're in the hospital for surgery then anaesthesia is unavoidable. It's kind of just dealing with the modern world. You can only completely avoid drugs up to a point.

    Sounds like they take a reasonable caution towards drug use and pump it through the Crazy-o-Matic. Yeah, you shouldn't take drugs if you can reasonably achieve the same results without drugs. I mean, duh. But jeez, man, if you can avoid a shit-ton of pain and displeasure by popping an Advil, do it. The fact that some people abuse drugs does not mean drugs are bad or useless. It means that some people fuck up.

    ElJeffe on
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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Page- wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Also, do Scientologists also object to pain-killers? Like, ibuprofen and the like? Because those are mind-altering drugs, too. They operate on the pain-centers of your brain, from what I understand, which is not functionally different from any other drug. At the end of the day, something is fucking with your brain.

    They're generally avoided, and there are other ways of handling everyday pain or headaches. They're still seen as harmful, though. But it's really a cost/benefits thing; you're not supposed to be popping Aspirin whenever you feel a headache coming on, but if you're in the hospital for surgery then anaesthesia is unavoidable. It's kind of just dealing with the modern world. You can only completely avoid drugs up to a point.

    Sounds like they take a reasonable caution towards drug use and pump it through the Crazy-o-Matic. Yeah, you shouldn't take drugs if you can reasonably achieve the same results without drugs. I mean, duh. But jeez, man, if you can avoid a shit-ton of pain and displeasure by popping an Advil, do it. The fact that some people abuse drugs does not mean drugs are bad or useless. It means that some people fuck up.

    Too true. :/

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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Out of curiosity, what is an acceptable length of time to play guinea pig? It's not like they didn't have ample opportunity to find a cocktail that worked the last time I spent two years in a drug-induced haze. I didn't show up for a few tries and quit. Should I have gone for three years? Five? Ten?

    voodoo, please understand that complaining about side effects is a common scapegoat for people who just don't want to deal with doctors. They won't say "I don't like taking pills because taking pills makes me feel like a crazy person," but they will say "I don't like taking pills because the pills give me headaches/nausea/sleepiness/etc." They won't say "I don't want to go to a doctor because only sick people go to doctors and I don't want to think that I'm sick," but they will say "I don't want to go to a doctor because doctors are arrogant and callous." Especially when the overall tone is one of suspicion and non-compliance. A patient who really wants to improve but just has a weird physiology and has strange drug allergies tends to put off a different attitude than one who doesn't want to take pills.

    It's possible that you tried 20 different drugs (a new drug every 4-6 weeks for two years) and none of them did you any good. It's possible that you developed tardive dyskinesia from that period of time. That would imply that all or most of those drugs were dopamine-active antipsychotics, which itself opens up the question: after the first few antipsychotics failed, why didn't they try something else? SSRIs? Lithium? Benzos?

    But this is a conversation I've had with a lot of people; more than I could possibly count or remember. You ask them, "Did you try X drug? Y drug? Z drug?" You can run down the entire list of drugs for a condition and every single one caused some really obscure side effect. "Yeah, tried Geodon, it gave me nightmares. Yeah, tried lithium, I had hallucinations. Yeah, tried Risperdal, it made my feet tingle." Etc.

    Eventually, people who are successful in therapy generally find a drug that has side effects that they can tolerate. They don't say, "Effexor made me twitchy so I quit," they say, "Effexor made me twitchy but it was better than crying all the time for no reason and wanting to kill myself." There is no perfect drug out there and the people who seem to expect drugs to be perfect have a tendency to be the same people who don't want to go to the doctor in the first place.

    On the other hand, there are people who sincerely have weird body chemistries and are sensitive to pharmaceuticals. It's hard to sort those people out over the Internet, so I'll just leave you with this: the placebo effect works both ways. If you expect a drug to make you uncomfortable, it probably will.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    Yeah, of all the antidepressants, Paxil is one of the most likely to cause difficult withdrawals. It's a pretty common problem.

    Yea Paxil and Prozac(Oh god I remember Prozac it was a nightmare) are older anti-depressants and were much more likely to cause really nasty side-effects. The newer drugs are considerably milder and easier on most folks.

    I took Prozac for like 2 weeks before I started getting suicidal thoughts and massive mood swings. Now I take Celexa and occasionally get a nasty taste in my mouth and a headache.

    nexuscrawler on
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    InfidelInfidel Heretic Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Page- wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Also, do Scientologists also object to pain-killers? Like, ibuprofen and the like? Because those are mind-altering drugs, too. They operate on the pain-centers of your brain, from what I understand, which is not functionally different from any other drug. At the end of the day, something is fucking with your brain.

    They're generally avoided, and there are other ways of handling everyday pain or headaches. They're still seen as harmful, though. But it's really a cost/benefits thing; you're not supposed to be popping Aspirin whenever you feel a headache coming on, but if you're in the hospital for surgery then anaesthesia is unavoidable. It's kind of just dealing with the modern world. You can only completely avoid drugs up to a point.

    Sounds like they take a reasonable caution towards drug use and pump it through the Crazy-o-Matic. Yeah, you shouldn't take drugs if you can reasonably achieve the same results without drugs. I mean, duh. But jeez, man, if you can avoid a shit-ton of pain and displeasure by popping an Advil, do it. The fact that some people abuse drugs does not mean drugs are bad or useless. It means that some people fuck up.

    It's not that I'm afraid of abuse. I admit my 'beliefs' are pretty messed up: I drink alcohol well into mind-altering territory, but I don't like taking painkillers. o_O It's the unpredictable / seemingly invasive drugs that scare me. But even when they're predictable, I still avoid them. I'll live with the headache, but I'll drink booze for the fun. Kinda inconsistent and irrational, I wonder if anyone else is like that.

    Infidel on
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    BarrakkethBarrakketh Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    Yeah, tried Risperdal, it made my feet tingle."
    I was put on that once. Being a kid it was never explained to me what problem they intended it to help with, but I can honestly say that I didn't like it at all. It basically redefined the word "apathy" for me because I found it impossible to care or get motivated about anything, and for the first two days I was basically sedated by it (I think they lowered the dosage after that).

    Barrakketh on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Barrakketh wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Yeah, tried Risperdal, it made my feet tingle."
    I was put on that once. Being a kid it was never explained to me what problem they intended it to help with, but I can honestly say that I didn't like it at all. It basically redefined the word "apathy" for me because I found it impossible to care or get motivated about anything, and for the first two days I was basically sedated by it (I think they lowered the dosage after that).

    I draw a line at giving kids antipsychotics like Risperdal. I find pediatric diagnoses of bipolar disorder and schizophrenia extremely suspect.

    But yeah, Risperdal and related drugs do tend to be very sedating, a lot of people feel like a zombie on them. Usually when the dosage is pulled down a little some of the sedation goes away, but rarely does it go away completely. (Interestingly, schizophrenics with negative symptoms - negative, in this case meaning "absence of action or emotion" - like catatonia, flat affect, etc. tend to become more active on antipsychotics.)

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2008
    Not to mention that pre-pubescent schizophrenia is damned near inexistent.

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    I wonder about diagnosing children with mental disorders. What's the exact logic behind the milder problems? Does a prepubescent child even have a fully formed mental personality?

    And I really do wonder, because I don't know. It seems like it's been pretty well established that children are kind of plastic in their formative years, but how long does that last? At what point do you go from "He's still learning," to "He's set like this and we need to fix it?"

    I guess that's in response to the supposed horror stories of 4 year olds being diagnosed with severe ADHD and put on meds. Whether that actually happens, I don't know.

    And what's up with the DSM? I heard there's basically a disorder for any tiny quirk a person could have in there. Scientology propaganda treats this like some sort of easy list for psychs trying to make a quick buck, since you can pretty much find something to medicate in any functioning human being (according to the manual, according to the propaganda).

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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Page- wrote: »
    I wonder about diagnosing children with mental disorders. What's the exact logic behind the milder problems? Does a prepubescent child even have a fully formed mental personality?

    The brain never really stops changing, though the most changes happen up to your mid-20s. So it's safe to say that your brain isn't fully "mature" until around 24 or 25, with the bulk of the development happening up until around 16 or 17.

    And it's probably not coincidental that most major endogenous* psychiatric disorders emerge between the ages of 16-17 to 24-25. (* - "Endogenous" means "arising from internal causes" like genetics or hormones or other consequences of biology. This is as opposed to "exogenous" which means due to external causes stress, trauma, drug abuse, etc.)

    Some disorders can definitely emerge earlier, like ADHD or depression. There is strong evidence that ADHD, even in children in grade school, is a biological issue. (Kids with ADHD have abnormal levels of certain byproducts of dopamine metabolism in their spinal fluid; they show structural and functional abnormalities on fMRIs, etc.) However, certain other disorders, like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, have long been understood to most commonly emerge in the very late teens or early 20s. So recent increases in incidence of these disease in childhood - particularly childhood bipolar disorder - are suspected by many doctors to be due to more aggressive diagnosing and prescribing patterns rather than reflective of an actual change in the population.
    Page- wrote: »
    I guess that's in response to the supposed horror stories of 4 year olds being diagnosed with severe ADHD and put on meds. Whether that actually happens, I don't know.

    It happens. Like I said, ADHD is a disease with solid evidence that it occurs in children. In general, when a child shows signs of having ADHD, the risks of medicating them (stunted growth, side effects) are usually less than the risks of not medicating them (behavioral problems, slowed academic development, getting held back in school, etc.). It's usually better to have a child who grows up to be two inches shorter than a child who failed math three years in a row.

    Part of the problem talking about this stuff is that every disease, and every drug is different. I think that the controversy surrounding ADHD is exaggerated by the media. I don't think that ADHD is overdiagnosed. I don't think that the rates of ADHD diagnoses in children is at all a cause for alarm. To contrast, I do think that the rise in bipolar diagnoses is a cause for alarm. Different diseases, different drugs, different situation. It's hard to talk about psych in general without delving into the nitty-gritty of individual conditions.
    Page- wrote: »
    And what's up with the DSM? I heard there's basically a disorder for any tiny quirk a person could have in there. Scientology propaganda treats this like some sort of easy list for psychs trying to make a quick buck, since you can pretty much find something to medicate in any functioning human being (according to the manual, according to the propaganda).

    Okay, here's the big thing to understand. Implicit in the clinical definition of a disease is the idea that a disease has to interfere with one's life or cause one significant distress. If it doesn't interfere with your life or cause distress, it's not a disease.

    So, yes, the DSM is full of diseases described in terms of personality quirks everybody has or normal behaviors everybody engages in from time to time. But doctors and mental health professionals are trained to know that until a quirk becomes so overwhelming that it's interrupting your life, it's just a benign quirk. The DSM has to be read with that in mind.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    AntinumericAntinumeric Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Anecdote time:

    At university I started becoming really morose and couldn't get motivated enough to do my work. I knew i needed to and wanted to but could not. This caused a downward spiral. After a few months of this one of my student advisers saw how bad I was, rang up the GP and booked an appointment for a half hour away and excused me to go there. The doctor diagnosed me with depression and prescribed me with Citalopram. This worked and I felt better and by the time of exams i was able to actually do them and passed. Then I did the most stupid thing possible, I forgot to go pick up my medication, I kept putting it off and off until I could not go even though I wanted to.
    After things started getting bad again, I managed to work up the motivation to go to the doctor's again, I had to convince myself to go by saying to myself "It helped last time". The doctor put me straight back on Citalopram, and I assumed that I would be able to recover. I did not.

    If you have never had suicidal thoughts come unbidden into your mind at every opportunity, pointing out exactly how you can end your life right now. You can not understand how painful it is. It is nigh impossible to do anything. I came off the drugs about two weeks after starting them hoping things would get better. I even think that there is a thread by me in H/A from then. Stopping only made things worse.

    I was like this during the entire exam season. It was a miracle that I passed. After a night spent weeping into my pillow for no reason I decided to go to the Doctors. After a long talk he prescribed me with Fluoxitine (Prozac). This has worked a minor miracle, after only a few weeks I felt like I had not in years. I have no doubt that at the moment if I were to stop taking these then I would be straight back to that mess. I hope someday to not have to rely on drugs, but at the moment they are really helping me.

    Oh and apparently I have anxiety/depression.

    Good luck talking to your boss!

    Antinumeric on
    In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.
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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited August 2008
    Well, that's it then. I just got an email from my boss saying it's over. Can't say I'm surprised, but I am disappointed, and now I've got a huge problem. :/

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