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Captain America: Now With 20% More Angst!

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Ok, I really don't want to go back and forth on this, so hopefully we can get over this. There are in fact rules and guidelines to drawing. I agree that conformity to these does not always need to be met in order for success, but there are some that are just practices that good artists follow. Style is defined as: (Fine Arts & Visual Arts / Art Terms) a distinctive, formal, or characteristic manner of expression in words, music, painting, etc. If you choose to express your women with huge breasts and small waists, I'm not complaining, I enjoy that. To make a woman's waist so small she'd have to carry her organs along in a shopping bag stretches your mind to accept something that is not plausible. To not be able to draw feet, a hand grasping an object or even simply adhering to the way the human body can actually contort is something that is important. The argument that comics present us with a world of unbelievable things is valid, but to a degree. Most things in the comic universe keep to some amount of realism - people need oxygen to breath, nourishment to survive, and (for most people) gravity holds us to the ground. Shit, look at that Captain America and tell me that doesn't strike you as odd. The point of art is not just to entertain, go look in a museum, there are plenty of pieces that no one enjoys. Art is meant to portray a message, regardless if it's good or bad. Most of us feel that Liefield's art is sloppy and careless and the only message it portrays is "Fuck you, pay me."

    If you are suggesting there are conventions that Liefield breaks, then I can accept that he is unconventional (I'll take your word that he is as I don't know the specifics of these conventions), but I disagree strongly that there is such thing as a bad artist, conventional or unconventional be damned. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say, and this beholder likes it while you do not. Liefield is unusual in that he portrays the anatomy in a certain way, but not necessarily "bad." It is a matter or opinion in all these cases.

    As for that Captain America, I agree that in our opinions that is poor art. Perhaps there are some who like it, however, which means that you cannot say it is bad. "Unconventional, and I don't like it," is fine. "Technically bad," is not.

    Perhaps we agree to disagree, yes?

    Solar on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Solar wrote: »
    Ok, I really don't want to go back and forth on this, so hopefully we can get over this. There are in fact rules and guidelines to drawing. I agree that conformity to these does not always need to be met in order for success, but there are some that are just practices that good artists follow. Style is defined as: (Fine Arts & Visual Arts / Art Terms) a distinctive, formal, or characteristic manner of expression in words, music, painting, etc. If you choose to express your women with huge breasts and small waists, I'm not complaining, I enjoy that. To make a woman's waist so small she'd have to carry her organs along in a shopping bag stretches your mind to accept something that is not plausible. To not be able to draw feet, a hand grasping an object or even simply adhering to the way the human body can actually contort is something that is important. The argument that comics present us with a world of unbelievable things is valid, but to a degree. Most things in the comic universe keep to some amount of realism - people need oxygen to breath, nourishment to survive, and (for most people) gravity holds us to the ground. Shit, look at that Captain America and tell me that doesn't strike you as odd. The point of art is not just to entertain, go look in a museum, there are plenty of pieces that no one enjoys. Art is meant to portray a message, regardless if it's good or bad. Most of us feel that Liefield's art is sloppy and careless and the only message it portrays is "Fuck you, pay me."

    If you are suggesting there are conventions that Liefield breaks, then I can accept that he is unconventional (I'll take your word that he is as I don't know the specifics of these conventions), but I disagree strongly that there is such thing as a bad artist, conventional or unconventional be damned. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say, and this beholder likes it while you do not. Liefield is unusual in that he portrays the anatomy in a certain way, but not necessarily "bad." It is a matter or opinion in all these cases.

    As for that Captain America, I agree that in our opinions that is poor art. Perhaps there are some who like it, however, which means that you cannot say it is bad. "Unconventional, and I don't like it," is fine. "Technically bad," is not.

    Perhaps we agree to disagree, yes?

    To be quite frank, it's people like you that keep people like Liefeld and Land working.

    Fencingsax on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Land is a different matter. He actually traces his work and commits plagiarism. The stuff he passes off as his is not really his (and I'm not a fan of it anyway). Liefield makes his own art, and who the fuck are you to say that I can't like it anyway?

    Solar on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Solar wrote: »
    Land is a different matter. He actually traces his work and commits plagiarism. The stuff he passes off as his is not really his (and I'm not a fan of it anyway). Liefield makes his own art, and who the fuck are you to say that I can't like it anyway?

    I didn't say you can't like it. I'm just saying that there's a reason why the 90's happened, and your attitude is a distinct part of it. Also the whole "Comics are not taken seriously by anyone" thing.

    Fencingsax on
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    WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Solar wrote: »
    It can be technically poor but entertaining at the same time. Cf: Jean-Claude Van Damme.

    But is it technically poor if it entertains, as it is doing exactly what it is designed to do?

    Yes, I think it can be really. Don't make me break out the crayons and prove it.

    Wildcat on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Wildcat wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    It can be technically poor but entertaining at the same time. Cf: Jean-Claude Van Damme.

    But is it technically poor if it entertains, as it is doing exactly what it is designed to do?

    Yes, I think it can be really. Don't make me break out the crayons and prove it.

    Also, Transformers 2.

    Fencingsax on
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    WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Wildcat wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    It can be technically poor but entertaining at the same time. Cf: Jean-Claude Van Damme.

    But is it technically poor if it entertains, as it is doing exactly what it is designed to do?

    Yes, I think it can be really. Don't make me break out the crayons and prove it.

    Also, Transformers 2.

    Ooh, yours is better.

    Wildcat on
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    LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Man, if you think there is no such thing as a bad artist I just don't know what to say.

    Just because art is largely subjective does not mean that there are not rules and objective parts to the form. I am a bad artist. I have trouble drawing stick figures.

    And like the example above, just because you are entertained by something that's bad (for instance I enjoy watching bad movies from time to time), doesn't make it actually good. It's still technically poor quality.

    Langly on
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    cardboard delusionscardboard delusions USAgent PSN: USAgent31Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I disagree strongly that there is such thing as a bad artist, conventional or unconventional be damned. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say, and this beholder likes it while you do not. Liefield is unusual in that he portrays the anatomy in a certain way, but not necessarily "bad." It is a matter or opinion in all these cases.

    I understand your angle, but you're justifying a means to an end. Art can be bad, even if someone likes something, it is not validated as being a success. You go to a restaurant and order chicken, if it comes out undercooked you can still eat it and be satiated, but that doesn't make it good. Standard convention is to fully cook that meal, some people may eat it that way, but you can't tell me the cook delivered something that was desired. I feel this is an accurate analogy because this art is not refined, just as if you threw extra garnish on an undercooked meal, you can only dress up crap so much. The argument that you're being entertained does not suffice. If I wanted to be entertained and the art was not a factor I'd pick up a book.
    As for that Captain America, I agree that in our opinions that is poor art. Perhaps there are some who like it, however, which means that you cannot say it is bad. "Unconventional, and I don't like it," is fine. "Technically bad," is not.

    Drawing Spongebob Squarepants is unconventional, we know that a sponge isn't an walking, talking thing. This would be an example of something valid for your argument of good/bad. Not everyone likes this cartoon, but it isn't drawn bad. If his hand is holding something or his legs are walking they do not defy the conventions of how this needs to be portrayed. Drawing a man (or superhero) whose powers are not morphing his chest outside of natural human form, should not be portrayed in such a fashion, and cannot be argued as the intention.

    cardboard delusions on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I didn't say you can't like it. I'm just saying that there's a reason why the 90's happened, and your attitude is a distinct part of it. Also the whole "Comics are not taken seriously by anyone" thing.

    Well, I didn't mean to project a bad attitude, but I felt that your statement was a bit of an implied insult, suggesting that it was the fault of "people like me" that the comic industry employs artists like Land and Liefield who i am assuming you dislike.
    I understand your angle, but you're justifying a means to an end. Art can be bad, even if someone likes something, it is not validated as being a success. You go to a restaurant and order chicken, if it comes out undercooked you can still eat it and be satiated, but that doesn't make it good. Standard convention is to fully cook that meal, some people may eat it that way, but you can't tell me the cook delivered something that was desired. I feel this is an accurate analogy because this art is not refined, just as if you threw extra garnish on an undercooked meal, you can only dress up crap so much. The argument that you're being entertained does not suffice. If I wanted to be entertained and the art was not a factor I'd pick up a book.

    I don't feel that analogy is accurate at all. Food is a necessity, uncooked chicken is bad for your health. Unconventional art is not. Also you cannot argue that Liefield doesn't deliver what is desired because his books are successful, though I don't see the relevence of what is "desired." They artist produces what they produce. If people like it then they like it, if not then they don't.

    Liefield produces something. I like it, in my opinion it is enjoyable. You do not like it, you feel that the lack of anatomical realism and conventional artistic design makes it worse. In your opinion it is not enjoyable.

    There are no rules. There are no rules that say "you must draw your person like this." People are taught by a set of conventions which may be popualr and widely accepted but they are not rules. As Captain Barbossa once said, "They be more like, guidelines."

    Langly, you said that art is largely subjective. I disagree. I believe that it is totally subjective. There are no rules.

    Solar on
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    KVWKVW Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Ugh, make an art post already. This is a cap thread.

    KVW on
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    cardboard delusionscardboard delusions USAgent PSN: USAgent31Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Analogies don't imply necessity, nor are they to be taken literally. This example was to illustrate that even though a requisite is satisfied, it does not mean it was done well. Hey, let's make this an extreme. Were there people that liked Hitler? Yes. Was he a good man? No. Was he a good artist? Probably better than Liefield.

    Just for fun:
    PRESERVE : MORATORIUM ::
    a)tyrannize : revolt
    b)shade : tree
    c)solve : problem
    d)accumulate : collection
    e)cover : eclipse

    cardboard delusions on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Hey, let's agree to disagree, clearly we both have feelings about this that are pretty solid.

    Man, Captain America is cool right? Such a badass, I hope he staves Norman Osborn's head in with his Shield and then pimp slaps Tony Stark for being a bitch.

    Solar on
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    cardboard delusionscardboard delusions USAgent PSN: USAgent31Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Agreed, dead as dead.

    Fist bumps all around. Now some sweet Jim Lee Cap/Wolvie/Widow
    268-1.jpg

    cardboard delusions on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    *Fist Bump*

    I bet that team-up was awesome. I'd love for these guys to chill with Bucky talking about music and stuff from the thirties and forties.

    Solar on
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    SalmonOfDoubtSalmonOfDoubt Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    "Man, remember when women couldn't vote? Those were the days."

    SalmonOfDoubt on
    heavensidesig80.jpg
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    killing children would be hilarious
    Olivaw wrote: »
    HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE PENNY ARCADE FORUMS

    PLEASE ENJOY YOUR STAY

    AND THIS PENIS
    Man, I don't want to read about this lady's broken vagina.
    NotACrook wrote: »
    I am sitting here trying to come up with a tiered system for rating child molesters.
    cock vore is fuckin hilarious
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Black Widow is such a gender traitor...

    Solar on
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    Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    "Man, remember when women couldn't vote? Those were the days."

    "Having your buddies drag you to your car when you had too much to drink at the bar. Good times, good times."

    I think we need an entire thread of just this.

    Caveman Paws on
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Butch Guice is the new artist starting with Cap #606, which is also when Zemo shows up (probably to be completely screwed over character wise, since he's hinted at "finishing the job his father set out to do, and kill Bucky")

    TexiKen on
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    cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Butch Guice is the new artist starting with Cap #606, which is also when Zemo shows up (probably to be completely screwed over character wise, since he's hinted at "finishing the job his father set out to do, and kill Bucky")

    Bwa ha ha. Just like when I found a reference to Zemo being in Captain America, your source has been removed.

    cshadow42 on
    MTGO Handle - ArtfulDodger
    Diablo 3 - ArtfulDodger#1572
    Minecraft - ArtfulDodger42
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    What the fuck. CBR = Censoring, Blocking, and Removing. This is worse than Guatemala!

    TexiKen on
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    cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    TexiKen wrote: »
    What the fuck. CBR = Censoring, Blocking, and Removing. This is worse than Guatemala!

    Its a conspiracy!!!

    cshadow42 on
    MTGO Handle - ArtfulDodger
    Diablo 3 - ArtfulDodger#1572
    Minecraft - ArtfulDodger42
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Well, now the article's back. So yeah, Zemo is going to kill Bucky for some reason.

    I admit I'm not the biggest Brubaker fan here (his Sleeper and Criminal are good and some of his Batman stuff with McDaniel, other mainstream work not so much), but there's no reason to make Zemo a nazi badguy again to further some story he wants to tell.

    TexiKen on
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    Diablo FettDiablo Fett Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    this arc looks terrible :[[[

    Diablo Fett on
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    HenslerHensler Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I don't like this direction for Zemo. But I do like that it says there will be more WW2 scenes. I'd kill for a monthly Invaders or Cap book that is set during WW2.

    Hensler on
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Do you have Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty? That fit the bill for about 13 issues, although the last few really made no sense.

    TexiKen on
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    HenslerHensler Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Do you have Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty? That fit the bill for about 13 issues, although the last few really made no sense.

    I have just about everything Cap related from about 1985 onward. Still working on the older stuff. I really liked Sentinel of Liberty.

    Hensler on
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    Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    So did Zemo: Born Better just not happen now or what?

    Witch_Hunter_84 on
    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Here is Brubaker's interview with Newsarama about the new arc with Zemo:

    Nrama: But Zemo is a full-fledged villain in this, right?

    Brubaker: Definitely. One of the things that I think is nice about the Heroic Age is that we have this idea of hero and villain. Because over the years we've taken a lot of the cooler villains and, because people like them so much, they sort of make them into good guys. Like, for a while, it looked like Sabretooth was maybe going to be a good guy. And I was like, "No! Not Sabretooth!" But Juggernaut was one of the coolest villains of all time, and for a while he was a good guy! I mean, seriously? Juggernaut's going to be a good guy?

    So my mission for this story is I want Zemo to be a really bad guy again. I want Zemo to be one of the best villain bad guys that I can turn him into while still finding a way to make that organically work with his whole history.

    That is all bullshit you just said, Brubaker. I knew Heroic Age would do this to some good characters.

    Busiek and (especially) Niceiza are probably throwing their hands up in the air going "oh what the fuck?!"

    TexiKen on
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    Diablo FettDiablo Fett Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    that is the worst interview i have ever read

    the idea of making Zemo into a Doom-like figure isn't bad, but pretty much retconning everything that came before that is just terrible

    Diablo Fett on
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    KVWKVW Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Found out Zemo was coming back. Heard Brubaker was writing. Saw awesome cover art. Read interview. Died a little inside. :cry:

    KVW on
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    BostonGanglerBostonGangler Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Wow. I'm not attached to Zemo like some here are (I never read Thunderbolts until post-Civil War), but on principle that does seem exceptionally lame. If the Heroic Age is about turning all villains back into one-dimensional psychopaths for no apparent reason, then count me out. Shades of gray are a good thing.

    BostonGangler on
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    See, everyone acted like it was no big deal for Karla to jump back to being a baddie under Ellis' T-Bolts run. "Oh, she's always been like that, that's nothing."

    And now, now they go after Zemo, and while I'm hella sad now you know how it felt.

    First they came for Juggernaut, and I did nothing because I didn't like the X-Men.
    Then they came for Moonstone, and I did nothing because she's kind of slutty.
    Then they came for Zemo, and I did nothing because I was in total shock.

    Then they came for me, because I butchered this poem.

    TexiKen on
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    iguanacusiguanacus Desert PlanetRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    In other news, looks like Hudlin is getting another shot at the Cap/Black Panther meeting, now in mini-series form.

    CAPTAIN AMERICA/BLACK PANTHER:
    FLAGS OF OUR FATHERS #1 (of 4)
    Written by REGINALD HUDLIN
    Pencils & Cover by DENYS COWAN
    For the first time ever, see the full story of the first meeting of Captain America and the Black Panther! It’s a World War Two adventure featuring a young Steve Rogers, the Black Panther and Nick Fury and his Howling Commandos in combat with the nastiest Nazi villains in the Marve Universe!

    iguanacus on
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    Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Here is Brubaker's interview with Newsarama about the new arc with Zemo:

    Nrama: But Zemo is a full-fledged villain in this, right?

    Brubaker: Definitely. One of the things that I think is nice about the Heroic Age is that we have this idea of hero and villain. Because over the years we've taken a lot of the cooler villains and, because people like them so much, they sort of make them into good guys. Like, for a while, it looked like Sabretooth was maybe going to be a good guy. And I was like, "No! Not Sabretooth!" But Juggernaut was one of the coolest villains of all time, and for a while he was a good guy! I mean, seriously? Juggernaut's going to be a good guy?

    So my mission for this story is I want Zemo to be a really bad guy again. I want Zemo to be one of the best villain bad guys that I can turn him into while still finding a way to make that organically work with his whole history.

    That is all bullshit you just said, Brubaker. I knew Heroic Age would do this to some good characters.

    Busiek and (especially) Niceiza are probably throwing their hands up in the air going "oh what the fuck?!"

    . . . goddammit.

    Witch_Hunter_84 on
    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Was Zemo ever a really cool bad guy, early Thunderbolts aside? I figured he was just a Z-Lister with a stupid mask glued to his face.

    Robos A Go Go on
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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    That was the first Zemo, this one just has a scarred face

    Antimatter on
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    That was Baron Heinrich Zemo who had the mask glued to his face.

    Helmut Zemo is the cool one, his son. He was brainwashed to believe in the master race stuff and wanted revenge on his father's killer (Cap), but he fell into a vat of Adhesive X that scarred his face, like a cross between Doom and the Joker.

    And then Thunderbolts made him a neat interesting character. He's basically a Lex Luthor now. He can save the world, just let him have the chance, stop trying to blow up his macguffin's and leave him be.

    He even repented for some of the things he did to Cap, like giving back the only photo he had of his mother that he tore up.

    TexiKen on
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    slessmanslessman __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2010
    Speaking of Captain America do you think that it would be cool to see him go after terrorists? I know that he had fun hunting down the Nazis in World War II. If he stands for American justice then they should definitely make a comic series with him in the Middle East kicking butt and taking names.

    slessman on
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    Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    You're thinking of USAgent.

    Witch_Hunter_84 on
    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
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