Honestly, Brubaker has done such a good job of weaving his stories, that in all reality, Steve isn't even gone.
Some of the best parts of each and every issue of Cap are the flashbacks. Brubaker almost always works in a scene or two of WWII with Cap and Bucky fighting the Nazis. Hell, many of my favorite moments in this run have been set during the flashbacks.
One of Brubaker's greatest strengths as a writer is being able to develop a really great cast of supporting characters. The flashbacks that feature the original Human Torch and Namor have all been top notch. I love seeing Cap and Torch and Namor tearing it up in Europe. The cast of characters in the 1940s flashbacks is every bit as strong as the "modern day" cast of Sam and Natasha and Agent Carter.
In other words, there is no real need to bring Steve back, because he has never really left. He is still in almost every issue of Captain America that has been released since #25.
Is there any evidence that bringing Cap back is editorial mandate rather than something instigated by Brunbaker?
From the latest round of Marvel News (got it from their e-newsletter in my mailbox today):
..."We've been planning the story of Cap's return virtually from the moment that he died," reiterates editor Tom Brevoort. "[As] the story developed and we embraced the concept of Bucky as the new Cap, events elongated naturally, [but] you'll be able to look back into [CAPTAIN AMERICA #25] and the issues that followed and see the assorted seeds we planted once we reveal what's been going on in REBORN."...
This smells to me like it might be a "planned" resurrection, although its unclear if it's the "We" as in Marvel Editor Fiat or "we" as in Brubaker and Brevoort and company. Personally I just got used to Steve being dead - I hadn't even realized it'd been three years. This means pretty much zero to me on every level other then Marvel is once again stagnating the characters over meaningful long term change.
Mark Waid said to Newsarama yesterday (in the Reborn #1 preview article) that this is something Brubaker himself has been planning for a while
Which I frankly don't understand (and kind of goes against my original hypothesis!), so... we'll have to see, I guess.
On the other hand, when do these people ever tell the truth to the readers?
Mark Waid doesn't care enough about the fanbase to bullshit.
Also the only reason anyone is so hesitant to pin this on Brubaker is the whole MAGIC GUN/NOT REALLY DEAD thing, apparently forgetting that Bucky came back to his senses with the help of a Cosmic Cube and Brubaker made THAT work. There's no reason to think he can't this time.
EDIT: We're also forgetting that Brubaker said he had about two years of Steve-less stories ready to go. This was planned from the start.
I'll be picking up the issue today, but I'm a little confused on how this magic gun could create a withered old corpse that they showed in the Shield Morgue in SI...
1) It's not like Sharon has been a reliable narrator since #25
2) It would explain the body she thinks she may have seen in that tank
3) It would also explain the shriveled corpse beyond SS formula breakdown - it was a plant
Of course, I can't really buy the Red Skull not just killing him. Surely he's read the Evil Overlord list by now.
but didnt everyone, both science, mystical and wolverine's damn nose, say "it's him"
and didn't thor like summon him from the dead saying "I can bring you back"
"no brah, i'm cool"
the most frustrating part of this is that they spent like half a year of issues and arcs finalizing "yes. he's dead", but then just bring him back. I have to say that as much as I used to love steve's character, he played a better symbol dead than alive
I'm sure that Brubaker will write the return well, though I do wonder what'll happen to Bucky. Honestly, as much as I like Steve, it just seems like they could have brought him back in a year or 2 no problem, and still told some awesome stories in the mean time.
I'm not really inclined to complain, but it always seemed to me like the longer he was gone, the more impactful it would be when he came back.
So I started reading issue 600. Its huge and I'm taking my time with it.
But I just got to the section titled "The Other Steve Rogers." The art is by Howard Chaykin. UGH.
Chaykin's art is the reason I dropped Punisher War Journal. Its terrible. Its downright awful. How does this guy still have a job? Why does Marvel keep using him? The inclusion of him makes me hate this issue, and I haven't even finished reading it yet.
Actually, I just finished the Brubaker section of the book, and the writing wasn't bad. It was actually quite good. Sure the whole "gun thing" is a bit out there, but he hasn't explained it yet. All we have right now is that its a special gun. We don't know anything else, and I am going to remain optimistic that Brubaker knows what he's doing.
As I stated on the previous page, Bru's ability to bring out a strong supporting cast is evident again in #600. The part with Sam, Natasha, Sharon, Cage, and Clint was hands down the best part of the issue. I love the cast of characters in this book.
I don't read Young Avengers, and I have no idea who Nikki Barnes or Elijah Bradley are, but the few pages of the story that was titled "The Youth of Today" was excellent. The writing instantly endeared me to a character who I had no previous knowledge of, and now I'm actually interested in reading about these characters.
If anything, I would say 600 was a tremendous success. And we will just have to wait until July issue 601 and "Reborn" to find out what happens.
IGN Comics: Did you guys always have this planned to start after about 25 issues or was it more flexible than that?
Brevoort: Oh, not at all. Not at all. In fact, not to cast things onto him, but I think Ed was so fearful of going into this segment, to run the book without the lead character, that initially Ed was saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll bring him back by issue #30." And we all kind of smiled and went along for the moment and let him have his fantasies, knowing and hoping that this would be a much bigger deal and that we wouldn't be able to do it that quickly.
Oh, and Nikki Barnes isn't in Young Avengers, she's Heroes Reborn Cap's sidekick i believe.
H*R on
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Anyone want to take a sidebet that Bucky or Steve Rogers is going to be rolled into a different character?
Can you say...Nomad?
Heck, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if they threw someone new in the Iron Man suit.
I hope they don't do a "it's ok to have two Captain Americas" like they had two Supermen in DC comics.
And whats up with introducing Heroes Reborn Bucky? Patriot I can understand...but Heroes Reborn Bucky? There's too much sidekick undertoning in Captain America already. I swear, the first time they make a joke of someone calling out for "Bucky", and Original Bucky and HB Bucky both respond....
Thor visited Steve's grave at Arlington, and basically summoned him to have a farewell chat.
At first he is afraid that nothing is left of Steve. No spirit. Nothing. So he used Mjolnir to summon Steve from the aether, and he appears, shrouded but wearing the Cap costume, and glowing blue (and his star is glowing). Thor asks why he's not in Valhalla, and Steve says he doesn't believe in it. Thor replies that you earn a seat in the warrior's hall with actions, not beliefs, and Steve most certainly deserved it. Instead Steve has been relagated to a place of cold and darkness, of emptiness.
Thors swears vengeance on those who killed Steve, but he refuses. He tells Thor that what he wants is to be remembered as an apolitical symbol of America and not of politics.
Thor offers to release him completely, but Steve refuses. Then Thor goes off and does the whole JMS-stopping-the-world-to-think moment.
And whats up with introducing Heroes Reborn Bucky? Patriot I can understand...but Heroes Reborn Bucky? There's too much sidekick undertoning in Captain America already. I swear, the first time they make a joke of someone calling out for "Bucky", and Original Bucky and HB Bucky both respond....
It's not introducing so much as acknowledging that she's been knocked into/onto the 616 Earth.
If Steve Rogers is going to take back up the shield, I'd like to see Bucky go back to being the Winter Soldier, but without the soulless brainwashed mercenary part. The super-spy stuff is pretty cool, and it wouldn't be a bad direction to take him.
Is it weird that upon hearing of how they intend to bring Cap back (we all knew it was coming) I went through all 5 stages of mouring?
Edit: I see that Jack Eddy went from stage 1 to stage 3 without resorting to stage 2.
Don't hold it in. In this place you can express your nerd rage openly without fear of rejection. Kinda.
Oh, I'm pissed, and I think it's a damn fools decision, and cheapens everthing that has made Brubaker Cap great.
I just know it is happening. Steve is coming back. He is coming back now. I can always hope he comes back in the appropriate way to be the least shitstorm.
jeddy lee on
Backlog Challenge: 0%
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FF X replay
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God of War 1&2 HD
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MGS 4
Prince of Persia
Anyone want to take a sidebet that Bucky or Steve Rogers is going to be rolled into a different character?
Can you say...Nomad?
Man, they should just let Bucky be a good Winter Soldier, at the very least. No more Nomad. No one needs that.
FCD on
Gridman! Baby DAN DAN! Baby DAN DAN!
0
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
You know what is kind of funny and sad? Today was more of a slow news news day than Monday was, so if they released Cap as normal, it would have been a better option for them.
Huh, just picked up the little promo "Reborn" card from my local comic shop. Turns out the Red Skull is involved in this "resurrection".
My new theory is...the Red Skull is going to possess Steve Roger's body. Not like this is a first for the Red Skull, I believe at one time the Red Skull was in command of a Steve Roger's clone body.
Red Skull was in a cloned Steve body for a long time. I could swear it was most of the 80s, but my memory is failing me.
That was how Cap was revived in Waid's(?) run when he last "died", after he was wearing the power armor because his body was failing. Sharon and Red Skull joined forces, gave Cap a transfusion, and then all three went on to kick some AIM ass.
I still think "Brand New Day" for Spider-man was a mistake. Granted, losing JMS (and making it so he won't come back) was a huge blow. But few of the post-BND Spider-mans have really grabbed me.
What really gets me is that none of the post-BND stories really required the absence of PP&MJ's marriage, with the exception of the Obama issue, when Peter Parker went on a date. Quesada's whole justification that BND would rejuvenate the Spider-man titles just seems flat to me.
Is Reborn going to be another BND?
I think the best case scenario for Reborn is that Steve Rogers will make a brief re-appearance as himself, just long enough to give Barnes his blessing, and then go back to the great here-after.
Anyone want to take a sidebet that Bucky or Steve Rogers is going to be rolled into a different character?
Can you say...Nomad?
Man, they should just let Bucky be a good Winter Soldier, at the very least. No more Nomad. No one needs that.
Upon thinking of Steve+Bucky+Nomad = Steve carrying Bucky on his back whilst brandishing a shotgun. In the same pose as I recall the Nomad character of the 90's upon his Marvel trading card.
Maybe Bucky could lose his legs and need Steve to carry him about!
Maybe Bucky could lose his legs and need Steve to carry him about!
Yeah, but then they call the GoG and their docs replace his legs while he's microwaving a burrito.
Am I alone in thinking that this really should be a team book, given the sheer size of the supporting cast of Caps, sidekicks and dames? And Sam, his brown not-the-gay-kind-bear partner.
Maybe Bucky could lose his legs and need Steve to carry him about!
Yeah, but then they call the GoG and their docs replace his legs while he's microwaving a burrito.
Am I alone in thinking that this really should be a team book, given the sheer size of the supporting cast of Caps, sidekicks and dames? And Sam, his brown not-the-gay-kind-bear partner.
Team America: World Police.
Shit, I think that's taken.
But really, how awesome does a team consisting of Steve, Bucky, Patriot, Rikki, Sam, Sharon, and Natasha sound? They may as well call it America, Fuck Yeah!
i've always thought that was really the secret brilliance of bru's cap stuff- he made the supporting characters (not a single one of whom i gave any kind of a shit about before his run started) so strongly drawn and so likable that i loved the book just as much even when cap was dead.
Huh, just picked up the little promo "Reborn" card from my local comic shop. Turns out the Red Skull is involved in this "resurrection".
My new theory is...the Red Skull is going to possess Steve Roger's body. Not like this is a first for the Red Skull, I believe at one time the Red Skull was in command of a Steve Roger's clone body.
Heh...clones...
Before he was in Lukin's body, I think Red Skull was in a Steve Rogers clone body. Makes sense that he'd go after the real thing now, though, since he's stuck in one of those Zola face-in-the-stomach deals.
Read #600 the other day- was pretty thoroughly unimpressed, which might be a first with Brubaker. Already kinda has an editorial mandate feel to it, but even if it is one I'm sure Brubaker will make the best of it.
I still think "Brand New Day" for Spider-man was a mistake. Granted, losing JMS (and making it so he won't come back) was a huge blow. But few of the post-BND Spider-mans have really grabbed me.
What really gets me is that none of the post-BND stories really required the absence of PP&MJ's marriage, with the exception of the Obama issue, when Peter Parker went on a date. Quesada's whole justification that BND would rejuvenate the Spider-man titles just seems flat to me.
Is Reborn going to be another BND?
I think the best case scenario for Reborn is that Steve Rogers will make a brief re-appearance as himself, just long enough to give Barnes his blessing, and then go back to the great here-after.
I liked JMS's run on AMS, but to their credit some of the recent storylines have been really good IMO. American Son is shaping up well. That said I hated OMD/BND, just because it was such a dumb way to make (unnecessary) editorial changes to the character. Basically, it just seemed like Quesada wanted the Spider-Man that he read as a kid back.
BostonGangler on
0
WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
Steve Rogers: Director of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Nick Fury just keeps on doing Secret Warriors stuff.
Weaver on
0
WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
Omega Corps, starring Steve Rogers as he assists the races of the universe in reconstructing the Kyln.
I liked the first one, I couldn't buy Steve doing things in space, that's what Nova's for.
Swanson on
0
WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
Yeah the second one was the joke option. I could see Steve being a good choice for that role. He could really bring some trust back to the organization and reunite the super-hero community, especially depending on how things turn out with the current Iron Man arc.
Posts
Some of the best parts of each and every issue of Cap are the flashbacks. Brubaker almost always works in a scene or two of WWII with Cap and Bucky fighting the Nazis. Hell, many of my favorite moments in this run have been set during the flashbacks.
One of Brubaker's greatest strengths as a writer is being able to develop a really great cast of supporting characters. The flashbacks that feature the original Human Torch and Namor have all been top notch. I love seeing Cap and Torch and Namor tearing it up in Europe. The cast of characters in the 1940s flashbacks is every bit as strong as the "modern day" cast of Sam and Natasha and Agent Carter.
In other words, there is no real need to bring Steve back, because he has never really left. He is still in almost every issue of Captain America that has been released since #25.
From the latest round of Marvel News (got it from their e-newsletter in my mailbox today):
The article can be found here in full.
This smells to me like it might be a "planned" resurrection, although its unclear if it's the "We" as in Marvel Editor Fiat or "we" as in Brubaker and Brevoort and company. Personally I just got used to Steve being dead - I hadn't even realized it'd been three years. This means pretty much zero to me on every level other then Marvel is once again stagnating the characters over meaningful long term change.
Which I frankly don't understand (and kind of goes against my original hypothesis!), so... we'll have to see, I guess.
Mark Waid doesn't care enough about the fanbase to bullshit.
Also the only reason anyone is so hesitant to pin this on Brubaker is the whole MAGIC GUN/NOT REALLY DEAD thing, apparently forgetting that Bucky came back to his senses with the help of a Cosmic Cube and Brubaker made THAT work. There's no reason to think he can't this time.
EDIT: We're also forgetting that Brubaker said he had about two years of Steve-less stories ready to go. This was planned from the start.
1) It's not like Sharon has been a reliable narrator since #25
2) It would explain the body she thinks she may have seen in that tank
3) It would also explain the shriveled corpse beyond SS formula breakdown - it was a plant
Of course, I can't really buy the Red Skull not just killing him. Surely he's read the Evil Overlord list by now.
but didnt everyone, both science, mystical and wolverine's damn nose, say "it's him"
and didn't thor like summon him from the dead saying "I can bring you back"
"no brah, i'm cool"
the most frustrating part of this is that they spent like half a year of issues and arcs finalizing "yes. he's dead", but then just bring him back. I have to say that as much as I used to love steve's character, he played a better symbol dead than alive
I'm not really inclined to complain, but it always seemed to me like the longer he was gone, the more impactful it would be when he came back.
This ranks right up there with Spiderman making a deal with the Devil to undo his marriage. Seriously.
But I just got to the section titled "The Other Steve Rogers." The art is by Howard Chaykin. UGH.
Chaykin's art is the reason I dropped Punisher War Journal. Its terrible. Its downright awful. How does this guy still have a job? Why does Marvel keep using him? The inclusion of him makes me hate this issue, and I haven't even finished reading it yet.
Do not buy Cap #600. Don't reward bad work/writting/etc. Vote with your wallet and all that jazz.
As I stated on the previous page, Bru's ability to bring out a strong supporting cast is evident again in #600. The part with Sam, Natasha, Sharon, Cage, and Clint was hands down the best part of the issue. I love the cast of characters in this book.
I don't read Young Avengers, and I have no idea who Nikki Barnes or Elijah Bradley are, but the few pages of the story that was titled "The Youth of Today" was excellent. The writing instantly endeared me to a character who I had no previous knowledge of, and now I'm actually interested in reading about these characters.
If anything, I would say 600 was a tremendous success. And we will just have to wait until July issue 601 and "Reborn" to find out what happens.
Truth? Or blowing smoke? YOU be the judge!
IGN Comics: Did you guys always have this planned to start after about 25 issues or was it more flexible than that?
Brevoort: Oh, not at all. Not at all. In fact, not to cast things onto him, but I think Ed was so fearful of going into this segment, to run the book without the lead character, that initially Ed was saying, "Oh, yeah, I'll bring him back by issue #30." And we all kind of smiled and went along for the moment and let him have his fantasies, knowing and hoping that this would be a much bigger deal and that we wouldn't be able to do it that quickly.
Oh, and Nikki Barnes isn't in Young Avengers, she's Heroes Reborn Cap's sidekick i believe.
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Can you say...Nomad?
Heck, at this point I wouldn't be surprised if they threw someone new in the Iron Man suit.
I hope they don't do a "it's ok to have two Captain Americas" like they had two Supermen in DC comics.
And whats up with introducing Heroes Reborn Bucky? Patriot I can understand...but Heroes Reborn Bucky? There's too much sidekick undertoning in Captain America already. I swear, the first time they make a joke of someone calling out for "Bucky", and Original Bucky and HB Bucky both respond....
Diablo 3 - ArtfulDodger#1572
Minecraft - ArtfulDodger42
No. That's not what happened.
Reposted from 4-11:
It's not introducing so much as acknowledging that she's been knocked into/onto the 616 Earth.
Oh, I'm pissed, and I think it's a damn fools decision, and cheapens everthing that has made Brubaker Cap great.
I just know it is happening. Steve is coming back. He is coming back now. I can always hope he comes back in the appropriate way to be the least shitstorm.
PS2
FF X replay
PS3
God of War 1&2 HD
Rachet and Clank Future
MGS 4
Prince of Persia
360
Bayonetta
Fable 3
DS
FF: 4 heroes of light
Man, they should just let Bucky be a good Winter Soldier, at the very least. No more Nomad. No one needs that.
My new theory is...the Red Skull is going to possess Steve Roger's body. Not like this is a first for the Red Skull, I believe at one time the Red Skull was in command of a Steve Roger's clone body.
Heh...clones...
Diablo 3 - ArtfulDodger#1572
Minecraft - ArtfulDodger42
That was how Cap was revived in Waid's(?) run when he last "died", after he was wearing the power armor because his body was failing. Sharon and Red Skull joined forces, gave Cap a transfusion, and then all three went on to kick some AIM ass.
Calling it now, the Cap we saw get killed was actually Ben Reilly
PS2
FF X replay
PS3
God of War 1&2 HD
Rachet and Clank Future
MGS 4
Prince of Persia
360
Bayonetta
Fable 3
DS
FF: 4 heroes of light
I still think "Brand New Day" for Spider-man was a mistake. Granted, losing JMS (and making it so he won't come back) was a huge blow. But few of the post-BND Spider-mans have really grabbed me.
What really gets me is that none of the post-BND stories really required the absence of PP&MJ's marriage, with the exception of the Obama issue, when Peter Parker went on a date. Quesada's whole justification that BND would rejuvenate the Spider-man titles just seems flat to me.
Is Reborn going to be another BND?
I think the best case scenario for Reborn is that Steve Rogers will make a brief re-appearance as himself, just long enough to give Barnes his blessing, and then go back to the great here-after.
Diablo 3 - ArtfulDodger#1572
Minecraft - ArtfulDodger42
Thats like taking the webbing design off the red and blue Spider-Man outfit, just doesn't look right without it.
Upon thinking of Steve+Bucky+Nomad = Steve carrying Bucky on his back whilst brandishing a shotgun. In the same pose as I recall the Nomad character of the 90's upon his Marvel trading card.
Maybe Bucky could lose his legs and need Steve to carry him about!
Why would you say such a horrible thing?
Yeah, but then they call the GoG and their docs replace his legs while he's microwaving a burrito.
Am I alone in thinking that this really should be a team book, given the sheer size of the supporting cast of Caps, sidekicks and dames? And Sam, his brown not-the-gay-kind-bear partner.
Team America: World Police.
Shit, I think that's taken.
But really, how awesome does a team consisting of Steve, Bucky, Patriot, Rikki, Sam, Sharon, and Natasha sound? They may as well call it America, Fuck Yeah!
Before he was in Lukin's body, I think Red Skull was in a Steve Rogers clone body. Makes sense that he'd go after the real thing now, though, since he's stuck in one of those Zola face-in-the-stomach deals.
Read #600 the other day- was pretty thoroughly unimpressed, which might be a first with Brubaker. Already kinda has an editorial mandate feel to it, but even if it is one I'm sure Brubaker will make the best of it.
I liked JMS's run on AMS, but to their credit some of the recent storylines have been really good IMO. American Son is shaping up well. That said I hated OMD/BND, just because it was such a dumb way to make (unnecessary) editorial changes to the character. Basically, it just seemed like Quesada wanted the Spider-Man that he read as a kid back.
Nick Fury just keeps on doing Secret Warriors stuff.