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Moment of The Week 08-27-08

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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The word "Carnage" should be censored from everywhere.

    This is tragically wrong. Carnage makes -so- much more sense than Venom.

    Wha...buh....what????

    SatanIsMyMotor on
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    MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    In a What If, it bonded with a kid first or something, or someone very, very good and realised that its desire to get revenge on Peter wasn't worth what it was doing.

    But... the whole point of Peter rejecting it was that it made him a bad person.

    That makes no sense.

    MuddBudd on
    There's no plan, there's no race to be run
    The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    In a What If, it bonded with a kid first or something, or someone very, very good and realised that its desire to get revenge on Peter wasn't worth what it was doing.

    But... the whole point of Peter rejecting it was that it made him a bad person.

    That makes no sense.

    He had a lot of hatred within him though. Even if hes a good guy he resents all the people who hate on him despite doing good and wishes he could kill villains and put a final end to them instead of fucking about with them over and over.

    Granted I'mt aking that from the animated series but still.

    The symbiote made him close to acting on these desires.

    DarkWarrior on
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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    In a What If, it bonded with a kid first or something, or someone very, very good and realised that its desire to get revenge on Peter wasn't worth what it was doing.

    But... the whole point of Peter rejecting it was that it made him a bad person.

    That makes no sense.

    In every universe where Ben doesn't die, Peter kind of is a bad person. Could be that that's his natural state, and the symbiote was only indulging that because it thought it was what its host wanted without personally having any idea of its own of what good or bad even mean.

    Robos A Go Go on
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    In a What If, it bonded with a kid first or something, or someone very, very good and realised that its desire to get revenge on Peter wasn't worth what it was doing.

    But... the whole point of Peter rejecting it was that it made him a bad person.

    That makes no sense.

    In every universe where Ben doesn't die, Peter kind of is a bad person. Could be that that's his natural state, and the symbiote was only indulging that because it thought it was what its host wanted without personally having any idea of its own of what good or bad even mean.

    He was on that route in the main universe with his wrestling and showbusiness stuff. It seems to be that he's always the loser, gets the power and decides to take the attention and power route to make up for it except in universes where someone he loves dies which snaps him out of it.

    DarkWarrior on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    the symbiote does tap into the baser instincts of its host and uses that as its imprint.

    Brock was a vindictive prick, but he also had a very strict personal morality

    hence lethal protector venom

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    In a What If, it bonded with a kid first or something, or someone very, very good and realised that its desire to get revenge on Peter wasn't worth what it was doing.

    But... the whole point of Peter rejecting it was that it made him a bad person.

    That makes no sense.

    In every universe where Ben doesn't die, Peter kind of is a bad person. Could be that that's his natural state, and the symbiote was only indulging that because it thought it was what its host wanted without personally having any idea of its own of what good or bad even mean.

    He was on that route in the main universe with his wrestling and showbusiness stuff. It seems to be that he's always the loser, gets the power and decides to take the attention and power route to make up for it except in universes where someone he loves dies which snaps him out of it.

    They did a "What If" issue where he didn't get the power, but Flash, Betty Brant, etc did... He eventually ended up with the power in all of them as Spiderman without them ALL dying (Flash did die though I think).

    sportzboytjw on
    Walkerdog on MTGO
    TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
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    mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The word "Carnage" should be censored from everywhere.

    This is tragically wrong. Carnage makes -so- much more sense than Venom.

    Wha...buh....what????

    I'm not saying he's a great Spider-Man villain, but rather that the character makes so much more sense than Venom.

    Think about it: Venom is a journalist who apparently is just a jerk who elevates to murderer because his career gets accidentally damaged. Later retcons like his cancer make this even more illogical by trying to make him a 'nice guy'. His quasi-morality has basically no internal consistency. Moreover, the psychotic-lover concept of the symbiote, while interesting, is never fully explored because the symbiote never just -claims- Parker. I mean hell, it could crawl onto him while he's asleep, move him to a location too far from sonics or flame, and wait-out the time it takes to fully merge if its so obsessed with him.

    Carnage, on the other hand, makes perfect sense: a psycho killer gets a weapon that lets him be a better psycho killer, and what does he do? Go on a god-damned rampage, constantly, until he's in jail. There's no elaborate scheming, or ridiculous obsessions. There is just a killer, unleashed from normal physical limitations. The symbiote has no inane motivations, just a childlike bond with a much, much stronger personality to the point of complete subservience.

    mattharvest on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Venom is a murderer in the sense that Punisher is a murderer, he only kills criminals (and Spider-Man)

    the eddie brock version anyway, obviously the mac gargan venom is very different

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    And though he talks about eating people's spleens, he never really means it.

    Robos A Go Go on
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    JudasJudas Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    And though he talks about eating people's spleens, he never really means it.

    The Gargan Venom, however, has on at least one occasion sated his appetite with a human arm.

    ( poor Steel Spider )

    Judas on
    Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver.
    Situation excellent. I am attacking.

    - General Ferdinand Foch
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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Yeah, poor Steel Spider, the hapless sociopath of the Spider family.

    I wouldn't mind seeing that Z-List curiosity again.

    Robos A Go Go on
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    MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Does Gargan still have the Scorpion suit on under there?

    MuddBudd on
    There's no plan, there's no race to be run
    The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
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    WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I can kinda see Carnage as a reflection of Spidey though - another Spider-villain living by the maxim of 'with great power comes no responsibility'. That's all I got.

    Wildcat on
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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The word "Carnage" should be censored from everywhere.

    This is tragically wrong. Carnage makes -so- much more sense than Venom.

    Wha...buh....what????

    I'm not saying he's a great Spider-Man villain, but rather that the character makes so much more sense than Venom.

    Think about it: Venom is a journalist who apparently is just a jerk who elevates to murderer because his career gets accidentally damaged. Later retcons like his cancer make this even more illogical by trying to make him a 'nice guy'. His quasi-morality has basically no internal consistency. Moreover, the psychotic-lover concept of the symbiote, while interesting, is never fully explored because the symbiote never just -claims- Parker. I mean hell, it could crawl onto him while he's asleep, move him to a location too far from sonics or flame, and wait-out the time it takes to fully merge if its so obsessed with him.

    Carnage, on the other hand, makes perfect sense: a psycho killer gets a weapon that lets him be a better psycho killer, and what does he do? Go on a god-damned rampage, constantly, until he's in jail. There's no elaborate scheming, or ridiculous obsessions. There is just a killer, unleashed from normal physical limitations. The symbiote has no inane motivations, just a childlike bond with a much, much stronger personality to the point of complete subservience.

    I don't agree with you. For one thing, the reason he elevates to murderer is because he gets a crazy alien symbiote attached to him. That's a good enough reason for me.

    I think you're romanticizing Carnage as well. I think of him more as "Hey we have this Venom guy that's really popular. Why don't we basically make another Venom but he's crazy and red and, get this, his host will have red hair too! Let's go watch 90210."

    SatanIsMyMotor on
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    frayfray Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The word "Carnage" should be censored from everywhere.

    This is tragically wrong. Carnage makes -so- much more sense than Venom.

    Wha...buh....what????

    I'm not saying he's a great Spider-Man villain, but rather that the character makes so much more sense than Venom.

    Think about it: Venom is a journalist who apparently is just a jerk who elevates to murderer because his career gets accidentally damaged. Later retcons like his cancer make this even more illogical by trying to make him a 'nice guy'. His quasi-morality has basically no internal consistency. Moreover, the psychotic-lover concept of the symbiote, while interesting, is never fully explored because the symbiote never just -claims- Parker. I mean hell, it could crawl onto him while he's asleep, move him to a location too far from sonics or flame, and wait-out the time it takes to fully merge if its so obsessed with him.

    Carnage, on the other hand, makes perfect sense: a psycho killer gets a weapon that lets him be a better psycho killer, and what does he do? Go on a god-damned rampage, constantly, until he's in jail. There's no elaborate scheming, or ridiculous obsessions. There is just a killer, unleashed from normal physical limitations. The symbiote has no inane motivations, just a childlike bond with a much, much stronger personality to the point of complete subservience.

    I don't agree with you. For one thing, the reason he elevates to murderer is because he gets a crazy alien symbiote attached to him. That's a good enough reason for me.

    I think you're romanticizing Carnage as well. I think of him more as "Hey we have this Venom guy that's really popular. Why don't we basically make another Venom but he's crazy and red and, get this, his host will have red hair too! Let's go watch 90210."

    i've always seen it as not so much that he suddenly becomes a murdering psycho, it's more that he already had a lot of repressed anger, due to his messed-up relationship with his father, getting fired and losing his wife etc, and then he gets the symbiote which not only allows him but actually encourages him to act on that anger. In that context it's pretty believable that he becomes Venom. And I'd argue that the conflict between his morality and the symbiote trying to push him to kill was actually portrayed pretty consistently.

    I'm pretty much ignoring all the cancer stuff here because I think it's a bunch of utterly unneccesary bullshit, by the way.

    fray on
    "I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
    "And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
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    Mr PinkMr Pink I got cats for youRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    Does Gargan still have the Scorpion suit on under there?

    I don't think so, but I have been wrong before.

    Mr Pink on
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    WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I would guess not, as I think in Thunderbolts we've seen Venom partially retract from areas of Gargan's body (ie when Swordsman zapped him) but I don't recall seeing the Scorpion suit underneath. I may be wrong though.

    Wildcat on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    He does not have the Scorpion suit anymore

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    He rejected a new Scorpion suit built by Osborn in favour of the symbiote.

    DarkWarrior on
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    mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    BTW, Brock-Venom did kill people and did eat their brains.

    mattharvest on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    he ate criminal brains

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    He ate brains for justice!

    Robos A Go Go on
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    mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    he ate criminal brains

    Hi. Murder is murder. Until you can show me where Punisher or Venom had a government sanction to kill someone, or was operating under the normal legal loopholes for killing (e.g. self defense), he was a murderer.

    He killed people illegally, without legal justification, so he murdered them. A person who murders is a murderer. Then, he ate their brains.

    (Yes, obv. Gargan is legally sanctioned in Thunderbolts. I'm talking about Brock)

    mattharvest on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I am not disputing that, but you cannot deny there is a clear and significant difference between someone like the Brock venom, who kills only deliberately and with purpose and indiscriminate killers like Carnage.

    I even said earlier in the thread "Venom is a murderer like the Punisher is"

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    I am not disputing that, but you cannot deny there is a clear and significant difference between someone like the Brock venom, who kills only deliberately and with purpose and indiscriminate killers like Carnage.

    I even said earlier in the thread "Venom is a murderer like the Punisher is"

    There's a difference only in scale, not nature.

    Carnage kills more, but he isn't committing "murder" in any substantively different form than Punisher and Venom (Brock). The suggestion that it's somehow less immoral to murder a criminal than an innocent is a rather reprehensible and insupportable moral position. Murder is murder.

    Don't get me wrong: killing 10 people is worse than killing 1, but it's not different in nature.

    In fairness: I thought your "Venom is a murderer like the Punisher is" was a sarcastic comment, i.e. saying neither were murderers. My mistake then.

    mattharvest on
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    Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Here's my stance
    Everything you say is wrong because you like Carnage
    THE END

    Me Too! on
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    Cosmic SombreroCosmic Sombrero Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Alright, time to kick this thread out of bickering mode.

    You know what time it is?

    IT'S BRIT TIME!

    Brit comes to check his sister out of the hospital.
    Brit-003.jpg
    Brit-004.jpg

    Poor Donald :<
    Brit-006.jpg

    I'm not sure why this part is even in the issue, but I love it.
    Brit-008.jpg

    Fastball Special, Backyard Style.
    Brit-012.jpg

    Space Woodstock is the best Woodstock. Yes, even better than Peanuts Woodstock.
    Brit-015.jpg

    Just call me David Coppafeel.
    davidcoppafeel.jpg

    Now, for the best moment of this issue. Scratch that, the best moment of the entire series.
    spacecrack.jpg

    Cosmic Sombrero on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The key though is that the Brock Venom and Punisher and any other character like that see themselves as being different.

    Obviously to Spider-Man its just as bad when one of them kills but thier own self-image is an important character aspect and frankly makes them much more compelling to read about that a mindless killer.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Nah, I don't think Spider-man sees it as just as bad, or he'd put more effort into catching Frank. Sure, he thinks it's wrong, but he sees in Frank a "moral system" that just isn't present in villians, making Frank, while not someone he likes, someone he sort of accepts.

    sportzboytjw on
    Walkerdog on MTGO
    TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
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    DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    please don't start the "how does punisher work in the marvel universe/why isn't he giving spider-man guns/ why isn't he in jail/whatever" nonsense in here.

    those brit panels are awesome. i keep meaning to try a kirkman image book some time, but i worry that i would buy them all. can't really afford the few i am buying right now

    DouglasDanger on
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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I don't think Venom is entirely responsible for his actions, so I'd cut him more slack than I would Punisher.

    Robos A Go Go on
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    Cosmic SombreroCosmic Sombrero Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    stop talking about Carnage and laugh at the stoned aliens you bastards

    Cosmic Sombrero on
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    JudasJudas Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    If nothing else, this thread has got me curious enough about Brit to go pick up an issue; those last 3 panels were damn funny.

    Judas on
    Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver.
    Situation excellent. I am attacking.

    - General Ferdinand Foch
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    sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I bought a brit thing a while back... it was kind of like a premium super-sized issue that had nice binding and a stiff cover, I didn't realize they were publishing more. I liked it.

    sportzboytjw on
    Walkerdog on MTGO
    TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
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    mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Brit is apparently genius, and I had no idea. That just moved ahead of Planetary in my trade buy list.

    mattharvest on
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    JudasJudas Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Is the art by Kevin O'Neill? Because it sure looks like it.

    I'm a huge fan of the man's style, and that would catapult this Brit to "must-buy" category for me.

    Judas on
    Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver.
    Situation excellent. I am attacking.

    - General Ferdinand Foch
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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    It's really worth picking up. And it's a fairly new title as well, so it's pretty easy to catch up. Two trades and you're into the current arc.

    If you've ever read Invincible it's almost exactly like that, except that instead of the story being from the perspective of a young hero finding his feet and getting to know the business, it's the perspective of a jaded, cynical, crotchety old guy who has seen it all a billion times before and is more than a little tired of it. It's pretty much exactly the same kind of humour, and drama, in both titles though. Well worth a look.

    Desktop Hippie on
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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Judas wrote: »
    Is the art by Kevin O'Neill? Because it sure looks like it.

    Nah, it's Mr. Nate Bellegarde, of Hector Plasm and Invincible Presents: Atom Eve semi-fame.

    And yes, everyone should buy Brit. There's currently two TPBs out; one by Robert Kirkman, with art by Tony Moore and Cliff Rathburn, and one by Bruce Brown with Rathburn on art again.

    They're both excellent, but I liked the second one more. I plugged Brit in the Goddamn Batman Would Have Words With Thee thread, and people seemed to dig it there too. Definitely one of the best books nobody's reading.

    Munch on
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    Sars_BoySars_Boy Rest, You Are The Lightning. Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I had like no fucking clue what happened in the second trade

    Sars_Boy on
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