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[D&D]Psionics

ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
edited September 2006 in Critical Failures
Hi, I like to play Psionic Characters.

With the release of the XPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook) and Complete Psionics, I think Psionics is pretty damn plausible now, but there seems to still be a lot of "Psioniocs r dum/imba" bigotry still around.

I find being a Psion or a Wilder to be far more easy for someone to play than a Wizard or a Sorcerer. because a Wiz or a sorc require to have good teamwork, both from their end, and from the other players (especially fighters and barbarians.) ecause Wizards and Sorcerers get a multitude of Cone/line/AOE/etc. spells, or other very situational spells. while a Psion or Wilder in comparison have more single target or simple "Multi-target" powers and thus can more do their own thing.

also I find the Psion interesting to roleplay. because it's a class I can use to roleplay a rather young character without having to be a Fighter. Psions can start adventuring as early as Age 16! while wizards often start adventuring in their 40's at the least. while some people like playing older more feeble character, I like playing really young characters.

I want to have some discussion reguarding Psionics, Psionic Items, Psionic encounters and ways a DM can "Manage" Psionics, and why DM's HATE them so very much.

Clawshrimpy on
«13

Posts

  • ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Another problem that strikes me with Psionics, is the problems with Multi-classing. I will soon be playign with a group that starts 5th level using "gestalt" forced Multi-classing. of course I'm assuming this isn't I psionics biased DM who hates the system and wants "Traditional" D&D.

    I hate it when DM's go the "No Psionics" route. or worse..... Core Only.

    Clawshrimpy on
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited September 2006
    In my experience, DMs hate psionicists because they (we) can fudge our way into doing just about anything since the rules and abilities are so vague.

    Like this one time in a campaign my friend and I were up against a steel-enforced thick wooden door guarded by about 30 kobolds. It was probably somewhere we weren't supposed to be yet, as there was no way to get through it without fighting all of them. So I used my abilities to melt a hole in the door with the power of my mind. They got scared and ran away.

    I also brought a very dead person back to life.

    Good times.

    ceres on
    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
  • JoeslopJoeslop Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    I've never played with Psionics, but a lot of GMs seem to say that "combining" magic and psionics helps even things out. Or something, i'm bad at explaining.

    Joeslop on
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    I like psionics mainly for one reason.

    darksun.gif

    Its a bitch to DM a campaign with psionics, unless its the focus, though. Darksun has psionics as the norm, and mages being the rarity. Also, the AD&D 2nd edition psionics rules are terrible, which probably turns off the old schoolers, even though the new rules work well.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    They are also Quite easy to run in Eberron, being there is a whole NATION/RACE of Psionicists.

    Clawshrimpy on
  • YoshuaYoshua Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Never liked psionics in anything that was supposed to be a traditional fantasy setting. Just seems very anti-thematic to me and something better reserved for a sci fi campaign. Mind flayers were about the only exception to the rule in my book, but then they aren't playable creatures (normally).

    That's not even touching the munchkin-ness of some psionic/class combinations.

    Yoshua on
  • ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    What I'm trying to say is Psions are easier to play for someone like me who hasnt had much of a chance to play and hasnt gotten the experience required to play a Wizard or Sorcerer properly (or the patience to take nothing but copies of Magic Missile for much of the low level game.)

    Psions had more than Magic Missile in low level, and I have a whole arguement about when people make the "You can do anything with a Wizard or Sorcerer that you could do as a Psionicist."

    which is Bullshit, theres noting in Arcane magic that comes CLOSE to Metacreativity.

    Clawshrimpy on
  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    edited September 2006
    No DM i've ever had used Psionics. I've always wanted to try though.

    Bucketman on
  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Bucketman wrote:
    No DM i've ever had used Psionics. I've always wanted to try though.

    It was in a campaign called ascent I ran, which was effectively DnD tactics that made me realise how inane psionics were. The slaughter that could be effected on players by meta-gaming psionic using enemies was incredible. The players soon caught onto the idea and it became truly ridiculous. I eventually dropped the psionic enemies towards the middle of the campaign and the players obliged by LEERRRROOOYYYY JEEEENNNNKIIIINNNNSSS' off their psionic characters. T'was a good campaign that and really showed how fun the DnD combat system can be just for the tactical wargame aspect of it.

    I have never permitted psionics in my games again since and never will. I fail to see the need to tack on a pointless extra magic system that isn't even thematically in keeping with the high magic fantasy settings I typically run.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    People who abuse the system do not use it properly. I hate min-maxers who give us honest 3.5 Psionicists such a fucking bad name.


    I also blame Ad&D 2ed.

    Clawshrimpy on
  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited September 2006
    I'm not even particularly concerned by that, as far as I'm concerned it's another set of pointless rules I need to be familiar with that adds nothing of substance to the game and so I just ditch it. There is no particular reason for me to use psionics in a fantasy setting, where they have never actually managed to fit in and magic does in fact do everything it does and with less cheese.

    These two things are incentive enough. The fact they are still incredibly funny balance wise is just the icing on the cake.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    I also blame Ad&D 2ed.
    I own the 2nd ed Psionics Handbook and its a trainwreck, the rules are some of the worst I've ever seen.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited September 2006
    I also blame Ad&D 2ed.
    I own the 2nd ed Psionic's Handbook and its a trainwreck, the rules are some of the worst I've ever seen.

    In all fairness, the original 3.0 Psionic Rules weren't much better. On the other hand, the expanded psionics book at LEAST improves things considerably in many aspects.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Then again, fucking "red mages" can ruin any class. a friend of mine ended up banning any form of Rogue/Illusionist multiclassing because he had to deal with the most insanely min/maxed Arcane Trickster EVER.

    Clawshrimpy on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    I also blame Ad&D 2ed.
    I own the 2nd ed Psionics Handbook and its a trainwreck, the rules are some of the worst I've ever seen.

    Well, it's true to it's source material. 1st had a random roll to see if you were Psionic. If you were you got free nifty powers.

    Yea! Balance!

    XPH has some issues as well, but most of those strike me as obvious and Complete Psion fixed some of them. (Absurd power DC's for...er...Energy Stun I think? A few others to boot.)

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Aegeri wrote:
    I also blame Ad&D 2ed.
    I own the 2nd ed Psionic's Handbook and its a trainwreck, the rules are some of the worst I've ever seen.

    In all fairness, the original 3.0 Psionic Rules weren't much better. On the other hand, the expanded psionics book at LEAST improves things considerably in many aspects.

    The 3.0 psionics rules are basically magic under another name.

    2nd edition psionics are so ridiculously complicated I honestly have no clue where to start when describing them. I'm one of those who thinks 3rd ed. D&D made the game alot more complicated, but thats because I overlook stuff like the psionics rules. I understand how the revised 2nd ed. psionics work, but everything in the original book is a convoluted mess. I only own it for the power descriptions, which were still necessary.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Aegeri wrote:
    I also blame Ad&D 2ed.
    I own the 2nd ed Psionic's Handbook and its a trainwreck, the rules are some of the worst I've ever seen.

    In all fairness, the original 3.0 Psionic Rules weren't much better. On the other hand, the expanded psionics book at LEAST improves things considerably in many aspects.

    The 3.0 psionics rules are basically magic under another name.

    2nd edition psionics are so ridiculously complicated I honestly have no clue where to start when describing them. I'm one of those who thinks 3rd ed. D&D made the game alot more complicated, but thats because I overlook stuff like the psionics rules. I understand how the revised 2nd ed. psionics work, but everything in the original book is a convoluted mess. I only own it for the power descriptions, which were still necessary.

    I have the 2nd ed psionics book because I used to play Dark Sun. Having psionics essentially another form of magic tacked on is probably just as bad as having it as such a convoluted system, hardly anyone understands how it works anyway.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    2nd edition psionics are so ridiculously complicated I honestly have no clue where to start when describing them. I'm one of those who thinks 3rd ed. D&D made the game alot more complicated, but thats because I overlook stuff like the psionics rules. I understand how the revised 2nd ed. psionics work, but everything in the original book is a convoluted mess. I only own it for the power descriptions, which were still necessary.

    The original 2nd ed. stuff all worked just like NWP's. With the simple addition of 1/2(IIRC) your powers had to be in your primary discipline.

    Now, it was shitty because it pretty much meant you had a hefty percentage chance of doing nothing, no reasonable way to improve your odds and some effects that were greatly out of level for 2nd edition. (I'm 1st level, I can dimension door....but better.)

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Aegeri wrote:

    I have the 2nd ed psionics book because I used to play Dark Sun.

    See what I posted a few responses above. :D

    Psionics are interesting in second edition because there's little middle ground in power. Its either "you are fucking dead in one hit" or "olol you take 1d6 damage". Its weird like that.
    Now, it was shitty because it pretty much meant you had a hefty percentage chance of doing nothing, no reasonable way to improve your odds and some effects that were greatly out of level for 2nd edition. (I'm 1st level, I can dimension door....but better.)

    Indeed, its either too powerful or too weak.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    I personally got into Psionics because I pissed a lot of people off when I played a Wizard or a Sorcerer, and I got bitched at when I was playing a Cleric it ended in something like this.

    Barbarian: Something got through a knicked me for 5 damages! Pop a Cure Serious on me!

    Me: Thats what I brewed you potions for, where did they go? I'd like to use my gods favor to burn heathens.

    Barbarian: *Turns greatsword at me* WHAT WAS THAT! *Intimidate*

    Me: *Fail* AFFERMATIVE HEALBOT IN ACTION!

    Clawshrimpy on
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Demanding that a cleric constantly cast healing spells on you seems kind of like metagaming to me. One who is not a spellcaster should know little to nothing about how magic works and what can or cannot be done.

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    This was in a Beginners Campeign and said Barbarian's player was 14 years old.

    Clawshrimpy on
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Demanding that a cleric constantly cast healing spells on you seems kind of like metagaming to me. One who is not a spellcaster should know little to nothing about how magic works and what can or cannot be done.

    Doesn't take a genius to figure "Hey, his hands glow and I feel better. DO THAT GLOWY HAND THING OR I'LL CUT YOU!"

    The Muffin Man on
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Demanding that a cleric constantly cast healing spells on you seems kind of like metagaming to me. One who is not a spellcaster should know little to nothing about how magic works and what can or cannot be done.

    Doesn't take a genius to figure "Hey, his hands glow and I feel better. DO THAT GLOWY HAND THING OR I'LL CUT YOU!"

    I don't think superstitious barbarian would harm a shaman or cleric who is an ally. That would be the same as attacking the god they represent, and who's power is obviously very real...

    And if they do decide to be an idiot, kill them. Clerics are quite strong in combat, and its already been stated he's hurt. :lol:

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Psionics in dark sun where crazy!!! Every player had at least 1 random power. But the problem was you could get ANY random power. You can get the equivelent of power work kill at the start of the game. What do you think my 3'rd level dwarf gladiator used all the time?

    Disco11 on
    PSN: Canadian_llama
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Disco11 wrote:
    Psionics in dark sun where crazy!!! Every player had at least 1 random power. But the problem was you could get ANY random power. You can get the equivelent of power work kill at the start of the game. What do you think my 3'rd level dwarf gladiator used all the time?

    Disintigrate? Doesn't it have a very low chance of working, though?

    DisruptorX2 on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited September 2006
    What does imba mean, anyways?

    Fencingsax on
  • ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    it's WoW forums slang for "imbalanced"

    Clawshrimpy on
  • Mongrel IdiotMongrel Idiot Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Psionics always seemed neat to me, but I've never let them into a campaign because I firmly believe they have to be fully integrated from the start to be rad. That said, they will be in a campaign I'm running shortly, set in a continent-sized city (think Ravnica from MTG).

    Any tips?

    Mongrel Idiot on
  • AllonAllon Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Be sure to have an answer ready when your players ask where the food is coming. ^_^

    Allon on
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Psionics is tough to abuse, its more balanced than arcane spellcasting, or divine spellcasting for that matter.

    The only thing that gets annoys me about psionsics is the lack of psionic items/non integration of psionic/magic items and the fact that they are intelligence and not charisma based casters.

    Anyway, the point is that psions arent difficult to keep in line, not like wizards at least.

    Goumindong on
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  • ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Goumindong wrote:
    Anyway, the point is that psions arent difficult to keep in line, not like wizards at least.


    Limed for truth. Psions are just moderately more effective sorcerers. They still aren't up to par with wizards, clerics, or druids however.

    Arkady on
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Arkady wrote:
    Goumindong wrote:
    Anyway, the point is that psions arent difficult to keep in line, not like wizards at least.


    Limed for truth. There isn't anything a psion can do a wizard can't do better.

    Freedom of Movement.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • Paranoia833Paranoia833 Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Psionics always seemed neat to me, but I've never let them into a campaign because I firmly believe they have to be fully integrated from the start to be rad. That said, they will be in a campaign I'm running shortly, set in a continent-sized city (think Ravnica from MTG).

    Any tips?

    Got to say I agree with that basic philosophy. If you'd asked me a year ago about psionics I'd have kept them well, well away from any fantasy setting I did, but after getting into Eberron and seeing the awesomeness that is the Dreaming Dark... well I pretty much credit Eberron for persuading me to buy the XPH.

    Generally speaking I'd try to avoid treating psionics as merely another form of magic, even if you go the route of having psionics and magic being completely equivilent system wise (power res=spell res. dispell magic works against psionics etc). Generally speaking I prefer to have one as the 'science' of my world, a relitively tame if potentially dangerous force that nearly every well educated individual knows a bit about, and the other as being completely alien to the setting, a mysterious force people react to with suspicion.

    Funnily enough magic or psionics can fulfill either role. If you want magic as science go semi-steampunk or generic high fantasy. If you want magic as an alien, inscrutable force go Conan the Barbarian or A Song of Ice and Fire. Likewise if you want psionics as a science, go the Star Trek vulcan route, psionics is merely a the act of a highly evolved, disciplined mind imposing itself on reality. Alternatively, if you want to give psionics more edge, point out that pretty much all the naturally psionic creatures in core are evil Lovecraftian abberations whose minds are unfathomable to mere humans. Psionics stems from the alien, incomprehensible psyche of beings no mortal could ever hope to understand, and even if a psion wears a human face they are ultimately something greater or less than human in mind.

    Anyway that's how I do it.

    Paranoia833 on
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Arkady wrote:
    Goumindong wrote:
    Anyway, the point is that psions arent difficult to keep in line, not like wizards at least.


    Limed for truth. Psions are just moderately more effective sorcerers. They still aren't up to par with wizards, clerics, or druids however.

    Psions are not nearly as strong as sorcerers.

    Goumindong on
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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Arkady wrote:
    Goumindong wrote:
    Anyway, the point is that psions arent difficult to keep in line, not like wizards at least.


    Limed for truth. There isn't anything a psion can do a wizard can't do better.

    Freedom of Movement.

    I dont get it, they are the exact same spell...
    except that the sorc/wizard can give it to other people as well as themselves.

    Goumindong on
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  • MinionOfCthulhuMinionOfCthulhu Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    also I find the Psion interesting to roleplay. because it's a class I can use to roleplay a rather young character without having to be a Fighter. Psions can start adventuring as early as Age 16! while wizards often start adventuring in their 40's at the least. while some people like playing older more feeble character, I like playing really young characters.

    You know you don't have to randomly generate your character's age, right? You can choose it right off the bat. And if you're going by the random ages, wizards start out at a minimum of 17 years old (15 baseline plus +2 if you roll ones), with 27 at the max. This is for humans, of course.

    I myself have never had the chance to play a psionisist, as my DM does not really care for them, plus he doesn't have the book. I'm sure he'd let me play as them if I really wanted to (plus purchased the book), but to be honest I don't like psionics much. Maybe it's because I'm a curmudgeonly former second-edition player, but hearing 'psionics' brings to mind 'broken'. It also brings to mind "goofy captions under each picture in the Psionics Handbook".

    MinionOfCthulhu on
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Goumindong wrote:
    Arkady wrote:
    Goumindong wrote:
    Anyway, the point is that psions arent difficult to keep in line, not like wizards at least.


    Limed for truth. There isn't anything a psion can do a wizard can't do better.

    Freedom of Movement.

    I dont get it, they are the exact same spell...
    except that the sorc/wizard can give it to other people as well as themselves.

    You misspelled druid/cleric there. Oh, you might have meant bard/ranger, I am horrible at correcting spelling.

    See, my subtle point is that the Wiz/Sor list doesn't have freedom of movement. This is one area where the Psion is so incredibly better off than his arcane counterparts. Combined with the "Expend Psionic Focus" to Take 15 on a concentration roll and they are much harder to catch with their pants down in melee.

    Now, I don't think Psion's make Wizards look like bitches, but it is unfair to say that they can do nothing better than a wizard could.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • ClawshrimpyClawshrimpy Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    Arkady wrote:
    Goumindong wrote:
    Anyway, the point is that psions arent difficult to keep in line, not like wizards at least.


    Limed for truth. There isn't anything a psion can do a wizard can't do better.

    Freedom of Movement.

    Also, METACREATIVITY, ASTRAL CONSTRUCTS, AND THEY ARE NOT A FUCKING PAIN IN THE ASS TO PLAY BETWEEN 1ST AND 15TH LEVEL LIKE A WIZARD.

    Clawshrimpy on
  • Alexan DriteAlexan Drite Registered User regular
    edited September 2006
    I recently got to play in an early epic campaign with a Psion, and got to see the class go for the first time. Now the DM was throwing stuff at us that was simply "Hey see how powerful your characters are, do insanely awesome things with them...". You know, 'easy stuff' like dragons, assassins, and hoards of undead, so maybe it was just the session (The 'real challenge' being a race against the clock to solve a puzzle.).

    Holy fuck she was strong.. Maybe it was what we were fighting, and yeah, at the end of the day she was nearly exhausted (Spending 75% of her points), whereas my Divine Trickster still had plenty of spells left. Still, when he was caught off gaurd she was killed fast. Oh and she could read minds. She got ambushed by an assassin, and forced the guy to kill himself.

    Psions can easily dish out more damage then a Wizard, they can be incredibly self-capable, and can do a ton of things to piss off a DM. For instance, our Psion could make herself immune to all damage, second round cast something insane, and repeat. Get into trouble with authorities? True Mind Switch with something, heck Mind Switch with an extremely powerful thing. Or create a bunch of mind seeds. Or how about just knows in an instant if a guy is lying, drop baddies into commas, and force them to tell you their plans, how things work, and the like. Yeah a wizard or a cleric can do similar things, sometimes, if they have time to prepare.

    Look, I don’t doubt psionics are as balanced against a properly trained DM, as say a Wizard or a Sorc, or a Cleric, but I came away from there with being glad that I had ruled against using them in my campaign. Just too many rules, too hard, and just to allow something insane like that. The DM and I had a lengthy discussion about it on the way back, and while he saw my points he didn't feel it was too strong. We'll see next time though.

    Alexan Drite on
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