I recently got to play in an early epic campaign with a Psion, and got to see the class go for the first time. Now the DM was throwing stuff at us that was simply "Hey see how powerful your characters are, do insanely awesome things with them...". You know, 'easy stuff' like dragons, assassins, and hoards of undead, so maybe it was just the session (The 'real challenge' being a race against the clock to solve a puzzle.).
Holy fuck she was strong.. Maybe it was what we were fighting, and yeah, at the end of the day she was nearly exhausted (Spending 75% of her points), whereas my Divine Trickster still had plenty of spells left. Still, when he was caught off gaurd she was killed fast. Oh and she could read minds. She got ambushed by an assassin, and forced the guy to kill himself.
Psions can easily dish out more damage then a Wizard, they can be incredibly self-capable, and can do a ton of things to piss off a DM. For instance, our Psion could make herself immune to all damage, second round cast something insane, and repeat. Get into trouble with authorities? True Mind Switch with something, heck Mind Switch with an extremely powerful thing. Or create a bunch of mind seeds. Or how about just knows in an instant if a guy is lying, drop baddies into commas, and force them to tell you their plans, how things work, and the like. Yeah a wizard or a cleric can do similar things, sometimes, if they have time to prepare.
Look, I don’t doubt psionics are as balanced against a properly trained DM, as say a Wizard or a Sorc, or a Cleric, but I came away from there with being glad that I had ruled against using them in my campaign. Just too many rules, too hard, and just to allow something insane like that. The DM and I had a lengthy discussion about it on the way back, and while he saw my points he didn't feel it was too strong. We'll see next time though.
Psions can out damage wizards/sorcerers...
Who cares? Damage is for fighters, control/utility is for wizards.
Anyway, the point is that psions arent difficult to keep in line, not like wizards at least.
Limed for truth. There isn't anything a psion can do a wizard can't do better.
Freedom of Movement.
I dont get it, they are the exact same spell...
except that the sorc/wizard can give it to other people as well as themselves.
You misspelled druid/cleric there. Oh, you might have meant bard/ranger, I am horrible at correcting spelling.
See, my subtle point is that the Wiz/Sor list doesn't have freedom of movement. This is one area where the Psion is so incredibly better off than his arcane counterparts. Combined with the "Expend Psionic Focus" to Take 15 on a concentration roll and they are much harder to catch with their pants down in melee.
Now, I don't think Psion's make Wizards look like bitches, but it is unfair to say that they can do nothing better than a wizard could.
Pretty much its true, arcane casting is ridiculously more strong then psionics. The lack of freedom of momement doesnt really hurt them, cause you know... dimension door(4th lvl), enervation, deep slumber, Fear, Black Tentacles, Slow, Ray of exhaustion, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep, Color Spray, displacement, major image(all the image spells really, they are pretty freaking incredible), False Life, Rope Trick, Glitterdust!, Darkness, Blindness/Deafness...
Not to mention the fact that arcane metamagic is so much stronger than metapsionics(which requires 3 feats to be decently effective).
3.5 psionics compared to 3.5 arcane magic, the arcane casters are much stronger, and they get a LOT more effective power points.
unoptimized Psions can easily dish out more damage then an unoptimized Wizard,
Fixed that for you. In a core only game sure, psions can dish out more damage than wizards. However comparing and contrasting the various nova builds out there, the wizard novas beat the everliving shit out of psion novas (it's been awhile since I read the nova threads but psions didn't top 30k damage in a round, wizards were over 50k). And once you take into account the massive, massive, massive amount of support that wizards and sorcerers get compared to the piddly crap psions do, they really come into their own. Also, while there are plenty of great wizard prestige classes, there are virtually no good psion prestige classes. Certainly nothing that comes close to incantatrix, halruaan elder, recaster, or even archmage, red wizard, or guild mage. Outside of Ectopic adept there is nothing I would ever take as a straight psion.
they can be incredibly self-capable, and can do a ton of things to piss off a DM. For instance, our Psion could make herself immune to all damage, second round cast something insane, and repeat. Get into trouble with authorities? True Mind Switch with something, heck Mind Switch with an extremely powerful thing. Or create a bunch of mind seeds. Or how about just knows in an instant if a guy is lying, drop baddies into commas, and force them to tell you their plans, how things work, and the like. Yeah a wizard or a cleric can do similar things, sometimes, if they have time to prepare.
Almost all of the really swell powers are in different schools that you can't take. As an example, a seer (master of telepathy, basically a diviner) cannot summon astral constructs. He won't get the good damage spells. He'll never see psionic shapechange. It isn't a matter of not having access to said power, it's a matter of flat out being banned from casting it. You can gain access to a non school power with a feat, but it's limited to spells of a level equal or less than the second highest power level you can manifest.
Anyway, the point is that psions arent difficult to keep in line, not like wizards at least.
Limed for truth. There isn't anything a psion can do a wizard can't do better.
Freedom of Movement.
Also, METACREATIVITY, ASTRAL CONSTRUCTS, AND THEY ARE NOT A FUCKING PAIN IN THE ASS TO PLAY BETWEEN 1ST AND 15TH LEVEL LIKE A WIZARD.
Freedom of movement is a joke right? Talk about all the worthless things you could bring up, and this is coming from someone who likes freedom of movement. I mean, if dimension door had somatic components it'd be a big deal, but they don't. And since no psionic power has somatic components, a psion with freedom of movement is really pretty damn silly (or playing in an underwater heavy campaign).
Metacreativity is not in the xph, I'd like to know what it does, especially since i remember it from 3.0 psionics which should not have any bearing on anything. Astral constructs are decent but lose out to the utility of the summon monster spells (and don't even get me started on how superior gate is to astral constructs), especially post errata, and psions are just as much a pain to play as a sorcerer, if not more so. It sure is nice being able to dish out 12d6 of damage with a second level spell as opposed to having to spend 12 power points to do it as a psion.
Psions are hampered by all the same problem sorcerers are and that is a hideious lack of flexibility. Being able to throw fireball 20 times a day isn't very useful when you need plane shift. That's part of the reason clerics and drudis are so dominant, immediate access to every spell on their list every day, no strings attached.
Now if you allow the Erudite variant from the back of complete psionics...
Are we playing the same game? Do you play with people who simply ignore the grappling rules as well as almost every battlefield control spell? Hell, Freedom of Movement shields you from getting totally fucked by Blasphemy so long as you're not stupidly lower level.
While certainly Dimension Door is the wizards answer to grapple it removes you from a single grapple usually requiring a DC 24 concentration check which at mid levels is usually still failable (but unlikely.) One Freedom of Movement tells grappling creatures to fuck themselves for the next hour, at least. Any Psion who is focused (not uncommon), has max ranks in Concentration (not uncommon) and doesn't have lower than an 8 con can gurantee that check. This is a huge advantage to the psion. Hell do it right and you've guranteed that the monster grappling you will waste a turn escaping the grapple.
There is however plenty of stuff the psion can't do. Haste would be pretty high on my list of great effects that psions can't realisiticly duplicate. Generally the psion is better at keeping himself alright than the wizard is but the wizard will allow the party to be far better off than the psion will.
Again, my main thesis is "Psions can do anything Wizards can do, but better." is false.
Edit: Arkady, what is the Errata comment directed at, specifically? I don't remember anything changing for Astral Construct (except the stupid, stupid forms in CP.) Astral Constructs lack utitility but they are just about the best you can get for summoned brutes. Those guys are rough. Making most of the druid summons look pathetic.
Wow, this thread reminds me of what I hate about "roleplaying" games. Its like reading people talk about world of warcraft. The point of making a fun character and roleplaying them is irrelevant because whats really fun is number crunching and powergaming. :roll:
Wow, this thread reminds me of what I hate about "roleplaying" games. Its like reading people talk about world of warcraft. The point of making a fun character and roleplaying them is irrelevant because whats really fun is number crunching and powergaming. :roll:
Personally? They're two seperate games to me. They occasionally intersect but generally I don't really play twinked out characters for any length of time. They get old fast.
The problem is this, Arcane isn't flexible, it's either Area of Effect or a Cone or some kind of "Battlefield Control" I just call them wall AOE's. THEY HAVE TOO FUCKING MANY OF THEM. Until a certain level they are pretty much glued to Melf's Acid Arrow and Magic Missile until later on, and even then, that's only if your Fighters and stuff know how to work with you, which 75% of the time, they don't.
Metacrativity is the Int Disipline of Psionics, it focuses mostly on using Ectoplasm. stuff like Astral Constucts, Ectoplasmic Shambler, Ectoplasmic Armor and such. Generally, a Psion's utility abilities are far more useful than a Wizard's. I find Ectoplasmic Cocoon to be more useful than Hold Person or crap like Grease
Astral Contructs are awesome In comparison to the shittyness of SUmmon Monster. at low level, you get to summon very weak wildlife, until you get up there to call Elementals, which costs your party money every time because Elementals are greedy fucks. It gets even worse at Planar ally and Gate. Big Elementals are REALLY greedy, Demons and Devils are soul-hungry, and Archons and Algels can be pretty greedy for church funds.
Wow, this thread reminds me of what I hate about "roleplaying" games. Its like reading people talk about world of warcraft. The point of making a fun character and roleplaying them is irrelevant because whats really fun is number crunching and powergaming. :roll:
That shit is boring to talk about. Nobody honestly gives a shit about your new characters backstory except your DM and they don't really lend themselves to discussion. Also, it has jack shit to do with the topic at hand.
Are we playing the same game? Do you play with people who simply ignore the grappling rules as well as almost every battlefield control spell? Hell, Freedom of Movement shields you from getting totally fucked by Blasphemy so long as you're not stupidly lower level.
Dimension door gets you out of everything freedom of movement does. My point wasn't that freedom of movement was weak so much as it's hardly a deal breaker or a super amazing awesome wow spell (unless fighting dragons, where it becomes really damn key). If you want me to amend my point to be "there is nothing of any significance a psion can do a wizard can't do better" so you can let go of the pedantry then consider it done.
Edit: Arkady, what is the Errata comment directed at, specifically? I don't remember anything changing for Astral Construct (except the stupid, stupid forms in CP.) Astral Constructs lack utitility but they are just about the best you can get for summoned brutes. Those guys are rough. Making most of the druid summons look pathetic.
Forget I said anything about errata. I was reading a thread on the wizard's board that implied you can only have one astral construct out at a time but checking actual xph errata, no such thing exists. Unless they reprinted the spell in complete psionics anyway, and all my books are in my car.
The problem is this, Arcane isn't flexible, it's either Area of Effect or a Cone or some kind of "Battlefield Control" I just call them wall AOE's. THEY HAVE TOO FUCKING MANY OF THEM. Until a certain level they are pretty much glued to Melf's Acid Arrow and Magic Missile until later on, and even then, that's only if your Fighters and stuff know how to work with you, which 75% of the time, they don't.
Arcane is inflexible? Are you high? There are about 500 different arcane spells, and if you start going third party you could tack on 500 more. There are, at most, 200 psionic powers. Nevermind the superior flexibility of wizards. As a psion you can do energy line, energy ray, energy cone or energy burst. You don't have arcane missile, scorching ray, melf's acid arrow, blast of flame, force orb, firestorm, chain lightning (though there might be a psionic version of this), and any number of a hundred and one damage spells that do all sorts of silly things that nothing psionic does. Nevermind the whole wizards can learn whatever spell they damn well please without an arbitrary limitation (unless they feel like taking one through specialization).
Wow, this thread reminds me of what I hate about "roleplaying" games. Its like reading people talk about world of warcraft. The point of making a fun character and roleplaying them is irrelevant because whats really fun is number crunching and powergaming. :roll:
That shit is boring to talk about. Nobody honestly gives a shit about your new characters backstory except your DM and they don't really lend themselves to discussion. Also, it has jack shit to do with the topic at hand.
.
Go back and read the OP, thanks. And speak for youself.
Wow, this thread reminds me of what I hate about "roleplaying" games. Its like reading people talk about world of warcraft. The point of making a fun character and roleplaying them is irrelevant because whats really fun is number crunching and powergaming. :roll:
That shit is boring to talk about. Nobody honestly gives a shit about your new characters backstory except your DM and they don't really lend themselves to discussion. Also, it has jack shit to do with the topic at hand.
.
Go back and read the OP, thanks. And speak for youself.
Never, in real life or on forums, have I ever heard someone describe a characters background story and not have the person they're attempting to bore to death with their poor fanfiction immediately respond with, "wow that's pretty cool.You know I had this character once who was a..." I mean, I could sit here and regale you for a page or 2 with the backstory of my psi fighter/war mind who was an arena slave in a mind flayer city before escaping (and who died in the first session I played him in, fucking 3.0 game and a nat 1 on a disintegrate save), but I would wager nobody here would want to hear about it, topical or not. Besides, that sort of thing may very well fall under writer's block more than here.
The problem is this, Arcane isn't flexible, it's either Area of Effect or a Cone or some kind of "Battlefield Control" I just call them wall AOE's. THEY HAVE TOO FUCKING MANY OF THEM. Until a certain level they are pretty much glued to Melf's Acid Arrow and Magic Missile until later on, and even then, that's only if your Fighters and stuff know how to work with you, which 75% of the time, they don't.
Ok, you know that "Battlefield control" stuff. Yea, its pretty important. Take a spell like "deep slumber" one failed save and your <10 HD enemy is dead.
Slow is effectivly the same thing. 1 std action/round? And you can pick and choose the targets to get affected? Ridiculous!
The illusion image spells? Completly off the wall.
Glitterdust(reveals invisible enemies and blinds them!)
Not to mention how ridiculous it gets at high level. Moment of Precience = go first in nearly every battle.
Waves of Fatigue? Waves of Exhaustion? No save 60 foot cone to end running and charging? -6 to str and dex? Stacks with ray of enfeeblement?
Insane!
Claw, Wizards dont need to do damage. This is because your fighter can have a handy non-magical heavy pick on him and then power attack for full on a coup-de-grace smacking the creature for 100+ points of damage forcing a DC damage +10 fortitude save vs death. And then do it again the next round.
Wizards and Sorcerers arent about doing damage(not that sorcerers dont do damage better than psions anyway, since they dont have to augment their spells). Fighters can deal plenty of damage, that is their job. Wizards and Sorcerers are about making the battle easy.
Yea, you can cast fireball, but you can also cast slow, pick your targets and save your clerics healing spells. You could cast chain lightning, or you could empower a ray of enervation [1d4x1.5 negative levels! no save!]
Cone of Cold... or Telekinesis[1 trip/bullrush/disarm/ per round!].
Wow, this thread reminds me of what I hate about "roleplaying" games. Its like reading people talk about world of warcraft. The point of making a fun character and roleplaying them is irrelevant because whats really fun is number crunching and powergaming. :roll:
That shit is boring to talk about. Nobody honestly gives a shit about your new characters backstory except your DM and they don't really lend themselves to discussion. Also, it has jack shit to do with the topic at hand.
.
Go back and read the OP, thanks. And speak for youself.
Never, in real life or on forums, have I ever heard someone describe a characters background story and not have the person they're attempting to bore to death with their poor fanfiction immediately respond with, "wow that's pretty cool.You know I had this character once who was a..." I mean, I could sit here and regale you for a page or 2 with the backstory of my psi fighter/war mind who was an arena slave in a mind flayer city before escaping (and who died in the first session I played him in, fucking 3.0 game and a nat 1 on a disintegrate save), but I would wager nobody here would want to hear about it, topical or not. Besides, that sort of thing may very well fall under writer's block more than here.
Are we playing the same game? Do you play with people who simply ignore the grappling rules as well as almost every battlefield control spell? Hell, Freedom of Movement shields you from getting totally fucked by Blasphemy so long as you're not stupidly lower level.
Dimension door gets you out of everything freedom of movement does. My point wasn't that freedom of movement was weak so much as it's hardly a deal breaker or a super amazing awesome wow spell (unless fighting dragons, where it becomes really damn key). If you want me to amend my point to be "there is nothing of any significance a psion can do a wizard can't do better" so you can let go of the pedantry then consider it done.
DimDoor doesn't stop slow or paralysis at all but Freedom doesn't help deal with a 500' wall. I think this is one of those 'play style' differences and we'll chalk it up to that as I don't think either of us is having fun with this.
Er...oh and Psychic Reformation, but that's one of those powers that's probably "Not a Good Idea"TM so it's no wonder the effect isn't mimicked elsewhere.
Edit: Arkady, what is the Errata comment directed at, specifically? I don't remember anything changing for Astral Construct (except the stupid, stupid forms in CP.) Astral Constructs lack utitility but they are just about the best you can get for summoned brutes. Those guys are rough. Making most of the druid summons look pathetic.
Forget I said anything about errata. I was reading a thread on the wizard's board that implied you can only have one astral construct out at a time but checking actual xph errata, no such thing exists. Unless they reprinted the spell in complete psionics anyway, and all my books are in my car.
I'd forgotten they'd rewritten Astral Construct to limit itself to one at a time in Complete Psionic. (I love how they released 'errata' in book form.) This does weaken things a bit but one of those guys is still an awesome thug. Need to make a psionic summoner. Mmm....
I'd forgotten they'd rewritten Astral Construct to limit itself to one at a time in Complete Psionic. (I love how they released 'errata' in book form.) This does weaken things a bit but one of those guys is still an awesome thug. Need to make a psionic summoner. Mmm....
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong astral constructs beat ass, and with the ectopic adept it's pretty beefy asskicking.
Er...oh and Psychic Reformation, but that's one of those powers that's probably "Not a Good Idea"TM so it's no wonder the effect isn't mimicked elsewhere.
Well, if you want to go there... Wizards/sorcs can just Limited Wish for Psychic Reformation (and reset their spell choices, better for sorcerers) or for freedom of movement.
I'd forgotten they'd rewritten Astral Construct to limit itself to one at a time in Complete Psionic. (I love how they released 'errata' in book form.) This does weaken things a bit but one of those guys is still an awesome thug. Need to make a psionic summoner. Mmm....
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong astral constructs beat ass, and with the ectopic adept it's pretty beefy asskicking.
And it costs a hell of a lot less than building real constructs or hiring Elementals/Angels/Archons/Tanar'ri/Baatzu
My experience with psionics is pretty small. Pretty much just one character a friend of mine played. It was a pretty twinky game, with everyone min/maxing like crazy. He was running some kind of drow were-panther, who was part fighter/sorcerer/dragon disciple/forsaker/psionicist. Basically he took forsaker to get a bunch of stat bonuses, then took some psionicist to craft psionic items for himself to use.
And don't worry, everyone else was just as stupidly tricked out and multi-classed.
Er...oh and Psychic Reformation, but that's one of those powers that's probably "Not a Good Idea"TM so it's no wonder the effect isn't mimicked elsewhere.
Well, if you want to go there... Wizards/sorcs can just Limited Wish for Psychic Reformation (and reset their spell choices, better for sorcerers) or for freedom of movement.
The first is a fine use, the second isn't the best. I dislike spending XP to fix 'common' issues.
Of course, that the first is a fine use really makes me leery about Reformation, if a spell is good enough that people are popping much higher level slots and XP for it...it's probably misleveled. (Hi original Quill Blast, how have you been? Yes, nobody Miracles for you anymore, I know, it's sad.)
I should probably rephrase what I said too, Arcane is inflexible at LOW LEVELS. like pre 3rd level spells.
yea, but it doesnt need to be flexible, because you have 4 encounters per day roughly at your EL. Or one to two above, and sleep or ray of enfeeblement ends those encounters right quick.
unoptimized Psions can easily dish out more damage then an unoptimized Wizard,
Fixed that for you. In a core only game sure, psions can dish out more damage than wizards. However comparing and contrasting the various nova builds out there, the wizard novas beat the everliving shit out of psion novas (it's been awhile since I read the nova threads but psions didn't top 30k damage in a round, wizards were over 50k). And once you take into account the massive, massive, massive amount of support that wizards and sorcerers get compared to the piddly crap psions do, they really come into their own. Also, while there are plenty of great wizard prestige classes, there are virtually no good psion prestige classes. Certainly nothing that comes close to incantatrix, halruaan elder, recaster, or even archmage, red wizard, or guild mage. Outside of Ectopic adept there is nothing I would ever take as a straight psion.
Oh don't get me wrong, I know there are plenty of ways to do that as a Wizard. Heck we've found a bunch of game breaking stuff ourselves. I'm going to use a video game analogy to best describe this.
There are ways to break the game, using combos or unlocking various mechanisms, that were never meant to be and a good DM will patch it up quite fast with a houserule or a server ban for cheaters, or better, turn the tables back on them.
A Psion, on the other hand, is like rocket launchers, or say the sword in Halo. Yes, it's not the end all be all. Yes you can do more, and yes it can be beaten. But dang, it's powerful. In the right hands, shotguns, pistols, sniper rifles, these can be just as powerful, if not more so. And a lot of people find rocket whores lame. Especially if you're playing with newbs who might not know how to counter it.
I mean, an incantatrix can drop a twined maximized empowered scorching ray (216 damage?), or a wizard can cast meteor storm (max 192, plus splash). A rogue, under the right conditions at 20 can deal about 300 per round from a sneak attack. The DMG suggests arcane casters should be about at the 25 dice at that level. So when a caster dishes over 400 damage from one spell I raise an eyebrow. And it's not even like say, a spellsword channeling + arcane strike + other combos to get some insane hit off that can be done once a day or some other absurdity.
Obviously fighters, with splat books, can easily match that kind of damage. Inside core they tend to narrow to a more respectable 50-250 damage per round.
The psion wasn't absurd, it was just "I haven't seen power like that unless I take weird feats, do combos, set things up, overly power game, or play a druid" alert. It's the kind of thing that causes DM's to not allow the battle sorcerer.
Looking back I think the main thing was the fact that our characters were all on a two hour clock (thus no time to prepare different spells), and what we fought emphasized a more glass cannon approach. I know Wizards are more flexible, excellent buffing and self buffing, debuffing, and battlefield control, things that are easy to forget when you see the numbers plop up. The Psion emphasized a more Black Magic approach: deal damage fast, hard, and now. Thinking about it more, he really could only do those a few things. She could dish out damage, respond fast, gather information/diplomacy/sense motive, and teleport extremely well. She can do these better then a lot of the classes that are supposed to be good at that. Rather like, a Barbarian versus as pure Fighter.
In closing, a penny-arcade comic that is somewhat relevant to this post.
Er...oh and Psychic Reformation, but that's one of those powers that's probably "Not a Good Idea"TM so it's no wonder the effect isn't mimicked elsewhere.
Well, if you want to go there... Wizards/sorcs can just Limited Wish for Psychic Reformation (and reset their spell choices, better for sorcerers) or for freedom of movement.
The first is a fine use, the second isn't the best. I dislike spending XP to fix 'common' issues.
Of course, that the first is a fine use really makes me leery about Reformation, if a spell is good enough that people are popping much higher level slots and XP for it...it's probably misleveled. (Hi original Quill Blast, how have you been? Yes, nobody Miracles for you anymore, I know, it's sad.)
The point is, that if the wizard/sorcerer really needs it, he can get it.
Also, Alexan... Fighters are better than Barbarians, rage not withstanding the extra feats allow the combat options that put the fighter on top.
I never take those kinds of spells because their useless, Crowd Control seems kinda useless to me.
When my mage goes isto MC, how often do I polymorph? Just Domo and that's it. DO I have to Frost nova? no, my job is to, you know, deal damage.
Just because you are stupid doesnt make it our fault.
But how about this...
In a battle that lasts at least 2 rounds with only 2 characters on your side[i.e. you and a fighter]. Haste will, on average, do more damage than a fireball.
How so, Fireball does a good amount of damage to multiple targets? how is being a support bitch like a fucking cleric useful OR fun?
A bard, plain ol bard, at level 20 is making all of the melees hit 20% more often and dealing 4 extra damage every round. If those melees then power attack for that extra 4, that's 4 more damage you can chalk up to the bard. An optimized bard at level 20 will be giving all the melee's +9 to hit (that would be a 45% increase) and damage, and be tossing around dc 34 dominate persons or dc 30 illusions and have a bluff check in the 60's.
A cleric, properly cheesed out will outmelee and outtank most fighters and even most non frenzied berzerker barbarians. Druids will outdps them but suck up the tanking job.
A wall of force can block off a large chunk of an enemies forces and keep them there. A charm person can turn that rampaging ogre barbarian raping your cleric into your new best friend. An evard's black tentacles can make it nearly impossible to cast spells in an area and hold up a few of the poorer rolling melee. A hold person is instant death to anyone who can't pass the save.
Either they forget I gave em pots, or they allways want to be "topped off"
So you tell them to go to hell and not cure them. If you've buffed yourself you will beat the shit out of them. Being a heal bitch is hardly a fault with mechanics and everything to do with your party being assholes.
Which does nothing If they are of Good alignment, most of the spells I load up on are speels that specifically target the Evil alignment, whith some dealing half damage to neutrals.
Which does nothing If they are of Good alignment, most of the spells I load up on are speels that specifically target the Evil alignment, whith some dealing half damage to neutrals.
That's your problem, damage spells suck. You want to kick ass as a cleric? I got 3 spells, a feat, and a magic item for you: Divine favor, Divine power, Righteous might, divine metamagic persistent and nightsticks.
Either they forget I gave em pots, or they allways want to be "topped off"
So you tell them to go to hell and not cure them. If you've buffed yourself you will beat the shit out of them. Being a heal bitch is hardly a fault with mechanics and everything to do with your party being assholes.
Finally Arkady, something we can wholeheartedly agree upon.
You only become a cure bitch when you act the cure bitch. All the people who can heal, can do alot more than heal and if they do the other part as well as they can, they find that less healing is needed. A timely Entangle, Sound Burst or Tasha's can point out to your party that tapping all your spells means they need more healing and are worse off than if you have 'em.
If you're looking to Psions (or Wizards) to be people who don't have to say no to healing, the problem is the ability to say no, not the class.
I like using stuff like Latern light, Holy Smite, Last Judgement, and a multitude of attack spells from the book of exalted deeds, or hell, just turn spell slots into 5d6 holy energy bolts as a Celestial Mystic.
Er...oh and Psychic Reformation, but that's one of those powers that's probably "Not a Good Idea"TM so it's no wonder the effect isn't mimicked elsewhere.
Well, if you want to go there... Wizards/sorcs can just Limited Wish for Psychic Reformation (and reset their spell choices, better for sorcerers) or for freedom of movement.
The first is a fine use, the second isn't the best. I dislike spending XP to fix 'common' issues.
Of course, that the first is a fine use really makes me leery about Reformation, if a spell is good enough that people are popping much higher level slots and XP for it...it's probably misleveled. (Hi original Quill Blast, how have you been? Yes, nobody Miracles for you anymore, I know, it's sad.)
The point is, that if the wizard/sorcerer really needs it, he can get it.
Also, Alexan... Fighters are better than Barbarians, rage not withstanding the extra feats allow the combat options that put the fighter on top.
Exactly, but in pure numbers from core only a barbarian can take more damage, and iirc do more damage per round. They also have a secondary effect of more skill points per level and better skill selection.
Yet Fighters are still better then Barbarians. In the same way, Wizards are better the psions. I think I was only looking at the things the Psion could do very well, Independence, immediacy, damage output, as well as their fantastic ability to control NPCs, and not looking at the larger picture.
We had to gather information, fast, from across the entire continent (we had two hours), and we faced a lot of things which were: do as much damage as possible, other types of spells likely won't work, things.
My perspective of Psions was tainted by that experience.
How so, Fireball does a good amount of damage to multiple targets? how is being a support bitch like a fucking cleric useful OR fun?
Haste will make 1 fighter get 1 extra attack at full BAB. At level 5 a fighter ought to be hitting 75+% of the time, for at least 2d6+4 damage(if not more)
The extra attack per round give an average damage of 22 if they both hit. A failed save for the fireball gives 17 damage if it hits on average.
At level 10, with 35 average damage you still face the same problem, because the fighter is going to be doing 2d6+10 or so damage.
And that is if they fail their save.
And if the fireball is going to kill them, then they are weak enough that you dont have to worry about them anyawy and the fighter will mop em up.
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Psions can out damage wizards/sorcerers...
Who cares? Damage is for fighters, control/utility is for wizards.
Pretty much its true, arcane casting is ridiculously more strong then psionics. The lack of freedom of momement doesnt really hurt them, cause you know... dimension door(4th lvl), enervation, deep slumber, Fear, Black Tentacles, Slow, Ray of exhaustion, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleep, Color Spray, displacement, major image(all the image spells really, they are pretty freaking incredible), False Life, Rope Trick, Glitterdust!, Darkness, Blindness/Deafness...
Not to mention the fact that arcane metamagic is so much stronger than metapsionics(which requires 3 feats to be decently effective).
3.5 psionics compared to 3.5 arcane magic, the arcane casters are much stronger, and they get a LOT more effective power points.
Fixed that for you. In a core only game sure, psions can dish out more damage than wizards. However comparing and contrasting the various nova builds out there, the wizard novas beat the everliving shit out of psion novas (it's been awhile since I read the nova threads but psions didn't top 30k damage in a round, wizards were over 50k). And once you take into account the massive, massive, massive amount of support that wizards and sorcerers get compared to the piddly crap psions do, they really come into their own. Also, while there are plenty of great wizard prestige classes, there are virtually no good psion prestige classes. Certainly nothing that comes close to incantatrix, halruaan elder, recaster, or even archmage, red wizard, or guild mage. Outside of Ectopic adept there is nothing I would ever take as a straight psion.
Almost all of the really swell powers are in different schools that you can't take. As an example, a seer (master of telepathy, basically a diviner) cannot summon astral constructs. He won't get the good damage spells. He'll never see psionic shapechange. It isn't a matter of not having access to said power, it's a matter of flat out being banned from casting it. You can gain access to a non school power with a feat, but it's limited to spells of a level equal or less than the second highest power level you can manifest.
Freedom of movement is a joke right? Talk about all the worthless things you could bring up, and this is coming from someone who likes freedom of movement. I mean, if dimension door had somatic components it'd be a big deal, but they don't. And since no psionic power has somatic components, a psion with freedom of movement is really pretty damn silly (or playing in an underwater heavy campaign).
Metacreativity is not in the xph, I'd like to know what it does, especially since i remember it from 3.0 psionics which should not have any bearing on anything. Astral constructs are decent but lose out to the utility of the summon monster spells (and don't even get me started on how superior gate is to astral constructs), especially post errata, and psions are just as much a pain to play as a sorcerer, if not more so. It sure is nice being able to dish out 12d6 of damage with a second level spell as opposed to having to spend 12 power points to do it as a psion.
Psions are hampered by all the same problem sorcerers are and that is a hideious lack of flexibility. Being able to throw fireball 20 times a day isn't very useful when you need plane shift. That's part of the reason clerics and drudis are so dominant, immediate access to every spell on their list every day, no strings attached.
Now if you allow the Erudite variant from the back of complete psionics...
LoL: failboattootoot
Are we playing the same game? Do you play with people who simply ignore the grappling rules as well as almost every battlefield control spell? Hell, Freedom of Movement shields you from getting totally fucked by Blasphemy so long as you're not stupidly lower level.
While certainly Dimension Door is the wizards answer to grapple it removes you from a single grapple usually requiring a DC 24 concentration check which at mid levels is usually still failable (but unlikely.) One Freedom of Movement tells grappling creatures to fuck themselves for the next hour, at least. Any Psion who is focused (not uncommon), has max ranks in Concentration (not uncommon) and doesn't have lower than an 8 con can gurantee that check. This is a huge advantage to the psion. Hell do it right and you've guranteed that the monster grappling you will waste a turn escaping the grapple.
There is however plenty of stuff the psion can't do. Haste would be pretty high on my list of great effects that psions can't realisiticly duplicate. Generally the psion is better at keeping himself alright than the wizard is but the wizard will allow the party to be far better off than the psion will.
Again, my main thesis is "Psions can do anything Wizards can do, but better." is false.
Edit: Arkady, what is the Errata comment directed at, specifically? I don't remember anything changing for Astral Construct (except the stupid, stupid forms in CP.) Astral Constructs lack utitility but they are just about the best you can get for summoned brutes. Those guys are rough. Making most of the druid summons look pathetic.
Personally? They're two seperate games to me. They occasionally intersect but generally I don't really play twinked out characters for any length of time. They get old fast.
Metacrativity is the Int Disipline of Psionics, it focuses mostly on using Ectoplasm. stuff like Astral Constucts, Ectoplasmic Shambler, Ectoplasmic Armor and such. Generally, a Psion's utility abilities are far more useful than a Wizard's. I find Ectoplasmic Cocoon to be more useful than Hold Person or crap like Grease
Astral Contructs are awesome In comparison to the shittyness of SUmmon Monster. at low level, you get to summon very weak wildlife, until you get up there to call Elementals, which costs your party money every time because Elementals are greedy fucks. It gets even worse at Planar ally and Gate. Big Elementals are REALLY greedy, Demons and Devils are soul-hungry, and Archons and Algels can be pretty greedy for church funds.
That shit is boring to talk about. Nobody honestly gives a shit about your new characters backstory except your DM and they don't really lend themselves to discussion. Also, it has jack shit to do with the topic at hand.
Dimension door gets you out of everything freedom of movement does. My point wasn't that freedom of movement was weak so much as it's hardly a deal breaker or a super amazing awesome wow spell (unless fighting dragons, where it becomes really damn key). If you want me to amend my point to be "there is nothing of any significance a psion can do a wizard can't do better" so you can let go of the pedantry then consider it done.
Forget I said anything about errata. I was reading a thread on the wizard's board that implied you can only have one astral construct out at a time but checking actual xph errata, no such thing exists. Unless they reprinted the spell in complete psionics anyway, and all my books are in my car.
Arcane is inflexible? Are you high? There are about 500 different arcane spells, and if you start going third party you could tack on 500 more. There are, at most, 200 psionic powers. Nevermind the superior flexibility of wizards. As a psion you can do energy line, energy ray, energy cone or energy burst. You don't have arcane missile, scorching ray, melf's acid arrow, blast of flame, force orb, firestorm, chain lightning (though there might be a psionic version of this), and any number of a hundred and one damage spells that do all sorts of silly things that nothing psionic does. Nevermind the whole wizards can learn whatever spell they damn well please without an arbitrary limitation (unless they feel like taking one through specialization).
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Go back and read the OP, thanks. And speak for youself.
I can't really stand d20/D&D any more, but I'd play for this setting and its rampant abuses of rules, psionics, and rolling mutliple characters.
He's even cast flaming hands on the party before just to hurt one or 2 monsters.
Never, in real life or on forums, have I ever heard someone describe a characters background story and not have the person they're attempting to bore to death with their poor fanfiction immediately respond with, "wow that's pretty cool.You know I had this character once who was a..." I mean, I could sit here and regale you for a page or 2 with the backstory of my psi fighter/war mind who was an arena slave in a mind flayer city before escaping (and who died in the first session I played him in, fucking 3.0 game and a nat 1 on a disintegrate save), but I would wager nobody here would want to hear about it, topical or not. Besides, that sort of thing may very well fall under writer's block more than here.
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Ok, you know that "Battlefield control" stuff. Yea, its pretty important. Take a spell like "deep slumber" one failed save and your <10 HD enemy is dead.
Slow is effectivly the same thing. 1 std action/round? And you can pick and choose the targets to get affected? Ridiculous!
The illusion image spells? Completly off the wall.
Glitterdust(reveals invisible enemies and blinds them!)
Not to mention how ridiculous it gets at high level. Moment of Precience = go first in nearly every battle.
Waves of Fatigue? Waves of Exhaustion? No save 60 foot cone to end running and charging? -6 to str and dex? Stacks with ray of enfeeblement?
Insane!
Claw, Wizards dont need to do damage. This is because your fighter can have a handy non-magical heavy pick on him and then power attack for full on a coup-de-grace smacking the creature for 100+ points of damage forcing a DC damage +10 fortitude save vs death. And then do it again the next round.
Wizards and Sorcerers arent about doing damage(not that sorcerers dont do damage better than psions anyway, since they dont have to augment their spells). Fighters can deal plenty of damage, that is their job. Wizards and Sorcerers are about making the battle easy.
Yea, you can cast fireball, but you can also cast slow, pick your targets and save your clerics healing spells. You could cast chain lightning, or you could empower a ray of enervation [1d4x1.5 negative levels! no save!]
Cone of Cold... or Telekinesis[1 trip/bullrush/disarm/ per round!].
Burning hands... or Color Spray!
I dont want to hear about it.
DimDoor doesn't stop slow or paralysis at all but Freedom doesn't help deal with a 500' wall. I think this is one of those 'play style' differences and we'll chalk it up to that as I don't think either of us is having fun with this.
Er...oh and Psychic Reformation, but that's one of those powers that's probably "Not a Good Idea"TM so it's no wonder the effect isn't mimicked elsewhere.
I'd forgotten they'd rewritten Astral Construct to limit itself to one at a time in Complete Psionic. (I love how they released 'errata' in book form.) This does weaken things a bit but one of those guys is still an awesome thug. Need to make a psionic summoner. Mmm....
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong astral constructs beat ass, and with the ectopic adept it's pretty beefy asskicking.
LoL: failboattootoot
Well, if you want to go there... Wizards/sorcs can just Limited Wish for Psychic Reformation (and reset their spell choices, better for sorcerers) or for freedom of movement.
And it costs a hell of a lot less than building real constructs or hiring Elementals/Angels/Archons/Tanar'ri/Baatzu
And don't worry, everyone else was just as stupidly tricked out and multi-classed.
The first is a fine use, the second isn't the best. I dislike spending XP to fix 'common' issues.
Of course, that the first is a fine use really makes me leery about Reformation, if a spell is good enough that people are popping much higher level slots and XP for it...it's probably misleveled. (Hi original Quill Blast, how have you been? Yes, nobody Miracles for you anymore, I know, it's sad.)
yea, but it doesnt need to be flexible, because you have 4 encounters per day roughly at your EL. Or one to two above, and sleep or ray of enfeeblement ends those encounters right quick.
There are ways to break the game, using combos or unlocking various mechanisms, that were never meant to be and a good DM will patch it up quite fast with a houserule or a server ban for cheaters, or better, turn the tables back on them.
A Psion, on the other hand, is like rocket launchers, or say the sword in Halo. Yes, it's not the end all be all. Yes you can do more, and yes it can be beaten. But dang, it's powerful. In the right hands, shotguns, pistols, sniper rifles, these can be just as powerful, if not more so. And a lot of people find rocket whores lame. Especially if you're playing with newbs who might not know how to counter it.
I mean, an incantatrix can drop a twined maximized empowered scorching ray (216 damage?), or a wizard can cast meteor storm (max 192, plus splash). A rogue, under the right conditions at 20 can deal about 300 per round from a sneak attack. The DMG suggests arcane casters should be about at the 25 dice at that level. So when a caster dishes over 400 damage from one spell I raise an eyebrow. And it's not even like say, a spellsword channeling + arcane strike + other combos to get some insane hit off that can be done once a day or some other absurdity.
Obviously fighters, with splat books, can easily match that kind of damage. Inside core they tend to narrow to a more respectable 50-250 damage per round.
The psion wasn't absurd, it was just "I haven't seen power like that unless I take weird feats, do combos, set things up, overly power game, or play a druid" alert. It's the kind of thing that causes DM's to not allow the battle sorcerer.
Looking back I think the main thing was the fact that our characters were all on a two hour clock (thus no time to prepare different spells), and what we fought emphasized a more glass cannon approach. I know Wizards are more flexible, excellent buffing and self buffing, debuffing, and battlefield control, things that are easy to forget when you see the numbers plop up. The Psion emphasized a more Black Magic approach: deal damage fast, hard, and now. Thinking about it more, he really could only do those a few things. She could dish out damage, respond fast, gather information/diplomacy/sense motive, and teleport extremely well. She can do these better then a lot of the classes that are supposed to be good at that. Rather like, a Barbarian versus as pure Fighter.
In closing, a penny-arcade comic that is somewhat relevant to this post.
When my mage goes isto MC, how often do I polymorph? Just Domo and that's it. DO I have to Frost nova? no, my job is to, you know, deal damage.
The point is, that if the wizard/sorcerer really needs it, he can get it.
Also, Alexan... Fighters are better than Barbarians, rage not withstanding the extra feats allow the combat options that put the fighter on top.
Just because you are stupid doesnt make it our fault.
But how about this...
In a battle that lasts at least 2 rounds with only 2 characters on your side[i.e. you and a fighter]. Haste will, on average, do more damage than a fireball.
He's stubborn.
He want's to play D&D his way and have the entire game revolve around him.
Tell you what, go play some WHFRP. That should break you of the "But I want my character to be awesome!" mindset, and then maybe you'll have some fun.
A bard, plain ol bard, at level 20 is making all of the melees hit 20% more often and dealing 4 extra damage every round. If those melees then power attack for that extra 4, that's 4 more damage you can chalk up to the bard. An optimized bard at level 20 will be giving all the melee's +9 to hit (that would be a 45% increase) and damage, and be tossing around dc 34 dominate persons or dc 30 illusions and have a bluff check in the 60's.
A cleric, properly cheesed out will outmelee and outtank most fighters and even most non frenzied berzerker barbarians. Druids will outdps them but suck up the tanking job.
A wall of force can block off a large chunk of an enemies forces and keep them there. A charm person can turn that rampaging ogre barbarian raping your cleric into your new best friend. An evard's black tentacles can make it nearly impossible to cast spells in an area and hold up a few of the poorer rolling melee. A hold person is instant death to anyone who can't pass the save.
All a fireball does is 35 damage on average.
LoL: failboattootoot
That's assuming you get to cast the good stuff. and not have to give in to all the "ZOMG HAEL PLZ."
Either they forget I gave em pots, or they allways want to be "topped off"
So you tell them to go to hell and not cure them. If you've buffed yourself you will beat the shit out of them. Being a heal bitch is hardly a fault with mechanics and everything to do with your party being assholes.
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Kill them. No, I'm not kidding. If somebody fucks with the servants of a god, its like fucking with the god themselves. Its your duty.
That's your problem, damage spells suck. You want to kick ass as a cleric? I got 3 spells, a feat, and a magic item for you: Divine favor, Divine power, Righteous might, divine metamagic persistent and nightsticks.
LoL: failboattootoot
Finally Arkady, something we can wholeheartedly agree upon.
You only become a cure bitch when you act the cure bitch. All the people who can heal, can do alot more than heal and if they do the other part as well as they can, they find that less healing is needed. A timely Entangle, Sound Burst or Tasha's can point out to your party that tapping all your spells means they need more healing and are worse off than if you have 'em.
If you're looking to Psions (or Wizards) to be people who don't have to say no to healing, the problem is the ability to say no, not the class.
Yet Fighters are still better then Barbarians. In the same way, Wizards are better the psions. I think I was only looking at the things the Psion could do very well, Independence, immediacy, damage output, as well as their fantastic ability to control NPCs, and not looking at the larger picture.
We had to gather information, fast, from across the entire continent (we had two hours), and we faced a lot of things which were: do as much damage as possible, other types of spells likely won't work, things.
My perspective of Psions was tainted by that experience.
Haste will make 1 fighter get 1 extra attack at full BAB. At level 5 a fighter ought to be hitting 75+% of the time, for at least 2d6+4 damage(if not more)
The extra attack per round give an average damage of 22 if they both hit. A failed save for the fireball gives 17 damage if it hits on average.
At level 10, with 35 average damage you still face the same problem, because the fighter is going to be doing 2d6+10 or so damage.
And that is if they fail their save.
And if the fireball is going to kill them, then they are weak enough that you dont have to worry about them anyawy and the fighter will mop em up.