Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

A twinkless mmorpg server... (for improved balance and economy)

1246

Posts

  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Day wrote: »
    Bama wrote: »

    I also think that most people here (and in general) only complain about twinks in the context of pvp. To address the fps analogy, player experience is vastly different to character experience. It's like getting beaten in Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots because the other guy is a veteran versus getting beaten because the other guy put really long arms on his robot before the game started.

    So the really long arms were allowed in the contest but the one dude wasn't prepared? Bummer.

    Yeah, exactly. It's like going to a skiing tournament and complaining that other people spent $1000 on their skis but you could only afford what you got at Goodwill.

    Except the guy with the $1000 skis doesn't shave 70% off his run time down the mountain.
    Also, to be clear, I wasn't saying that either of those hypothetical losses were unfair, but rather that they were fundamentally different just like the competition in FPS games and RPGs are fundamentally different.

    Again, the problem isn't twinking, it's the itemization and class balance that twinks abuse.

    Bama on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Bama wrote: »
    Also, to be clear, I wasn't saying that either of those hypothetical losses were unfair, but rather that they were fundamentally different just like the competition in FPS games and RPGs are fundamentally different.

    Again, the problem isn't twinking, it's the itemization and class balance that twinks abuse.

    This I agree with. A healthy portion of the blame (if one believes there is blame to share) does indeed lie with the game designers that allowed such things to happen.

    I sincerely hope that we see significantly higher restrictions on the WLK enchants/patches/etc.

    Or maybe they'll make those level 35/45 or so too, and show very clearly that twinking is not only accepted buy expected.

    I don't mind someone getting a few good rares or an epic for their x9 twink. I do find it unsporting and of dubious gaming design to allow people to put excessively powerful enchants on gear to the point that they're gods among the mere mortals within the 'natural' BG's (people without excessively and obnoxiously expensive gear / enchants far beyond what a character at that level would have had access to).

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • acronomiconacronomicon Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    If everybody did that, then everybody would have killer gear at every bracket, and then everybody would be more or less evenly matched, and PvP would be more fun.

    And if the brackets were designed to take gear into account, nobody would care. PvP would be more fun, you'd be likely to actually playing against players at the same level as you are. To use a shooting competition analogy, different brackets allow different gear on your firearm. This serves to make sure, when you shoot, they're minimizing the effect that the amount of money you spent has on your ability to compete. If you've got the money to spend on a race gun, you compete with other people using that kind of weapon and go to town. Professional sports do it by a salary cap, ostensibly no team will end up too lopsided unless a bunch of star players take a hefty pay cut to play together.

    WoW doesn't have a mechanism for that. People play against players who far outclass them, but not necessarily in terms of skill. Gear isn't everything, but it can make up for a lot

    acronomicon on
    32340.jpg
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I strongly suspect that for every single person who is all "omg I'm awesome and learned to play and I totally smoke twinks, praise me, bask in the glory that is me", there are another 10 people in the lower brackets who are like "man, fuck twink rogues/hunters/whatever".

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • MunacraMunacra Registered User
    edited September 2008
    I think mainly PVP in wow is competition based on gear which amounts snobby rich boy competitions akin to: "my daddy bought me this" and well, "my daddy bought me this and its more expensive."

    Rewarding players for the amount of time they have spent grinding instead of by how well they have played in an individual contest is frankly asinine. But that is apparently the way pvp in wow (apparently) has been designed, so the rules of the game are the rules of the game.

    Munacra on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    If everybody did that, then everybody would have killer gear at every bracket, and then everybody would be more or less evenly matched, and PvP would be more fun.

    And if the brackets were designed to take gear into account, nobody would care. PvP would be more fun, you'd be likely to actually playing against players at the same level as you are. To use a shooting competition analogy, different brackets allow different gear on your firearm. This serves to make sure, when you shoot, they're minimizing the effect that the amount of money you spent has on your ability to compete. If you've got the money to spend on a race gun, you compete with other people using that kind of weapon and go to town. Professional sports do it by a salary cap, ostensibly no team will end up too lopsided unless a bunch of star players take a hefty pay cut to play together.

    WoW doesn't have a mechanism for that. People play against players who far outclass them, but not necessarily in terms of skill. Gear isn't everything, but it can make up for a lot

    Probably the easiest thing they could do is as soon as you enter a queue for a PvP event, you have the option of choosing "virtual" gear that your character wears for the duration of that event, overriding your existing gear. And perhaps your PvP build could be saved to your character so you don't have to spend time choosing pieces every time you play.

    It would be a little like the Arena season tryouts they had a few months ago where you could pick and choose from top gear.

    Of course, you would still have the problem of getting idiots on your team who don't know how to play, but I guess that's the risk of doing team games with random Internet people.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Munacra wrote: »
    Rewarding players for the amount of time they have spent grinding instead of by how well they have played in an individual contest is frankly asinine.
    I'm going to recommend that you stay the hell away from RPGs.

    Bama on
  • acronomiconacronomicon Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    Of course, you would still have the problem of getting idiots on your team who don't know how to play, but I guess that's the risk of doing team games with random Internet people.

    I never cared much about losing because of other idiots not knowing how to play. As you say, it's part of playing on the Internet with unknown people. At that point, it's team skill versus team skill. My team lacked the skill to win, and it lost.

    But losing because enough players on the other side had enough twinkage that we simply couldn't compete, regardless of skill, is a downer. Losing because half my team is trying to put the AFK in PvP is a downer. On the flip side, I heard a lot of people say they had to twink to be competitive. That's a circular argument that essentially means at some point someone sucked so bad at PvP that the only way they could compete is to so outgear their opponents that their lack of skill didn't matter. Now so many people twink that it's almost a necessity, or at least it was when I stopped playing a while ago. Unless they do gear based brackets, or some other workaround, I don't see many new players having an enjoyable time PvPing during the normal course of leveling up.

    acronomicon on
    32340.jpg
  • NerdtendoNerdtendo Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I wouldn't mind an optional BG that had a base gear set for each class. Regardless of what you had on, the stats would be set. A warrior decked out in the most awesomesauce PvP gear would be on even grounds with the warrior walking around naked.

    Naked PvP, now we're talking.

    Nerdtendo on
    IHZR47b.png
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Hey, can we stop with the claims that people only twink because they lack skill? It doesn't really add anything to the argument other than to get people's hackles up.

    Bama on
  • DayDay Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Skill is a pillar humping resto druid.

    Day on
    Currently Playing: TF2/Audiosurf
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
  • PierceNeckPierceNeck Simi Valley, CARegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Bama wrote: »
    Hey, can we stop with the claims that people only twink because they lack skill? It doesn't really add anything to the argument other than to get people's hackles up.
    Nothing adds anything to this argument ever.

    PierceNeck on
    steam_sig.png
    Origin: PierceNeck
    SC2/Diablo - pierceneck#1369
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    PierceNeck wrote: »
    Bama wrote: »
    Hey, can we stop with the claims that people only twink because they lack skill? It doesn't really add anything to the argument other than to get people's hackles up.
    Nothing adds anything to this argument ever.
    Your mom adds anything to this argument.

    Bama on
  • NerdtendoNerdtendo Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Bama wrote: »
    PierceNeck wrote: »
    Bama wrote: »
    Hey, can we stop with the claims that people only twink because they lack skill? It doesn't really add anything to the argument other than to get people's hackles up.
    Nothing adds anything to this argument ever.
    Your mom adds anything to this argument.

    I hope she's twinked out.

    Nerdtendo on
    IHZR47b.png
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    There are plenty of skilled players that twink, sure, but it's also hard to ignore the fact that a not insignificant portion of the twink playerbase seems to specifically aim for a gear advantage that means they can win against most people whether they're skilled or not.

    Those people can face roll their way to a victory one on one or even one on two. The skilled ones are the fuckers who manage to take down half an AB team on their own. The skilled one probably could've gone one on two and won without twinking, but with the inherant advantage found in an absurd gear gap they are nigh unstoppable.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Hey, that's great. It still doesn't speak to any of the problems with twinking.

    Bama on
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    There are plenty of skilled players that twink, sure, but it's also hard to ignore the fact that a not insignificant portion of the twink playerbase seems to specifically aim for a gear advantage that means they can win against most people whether they're skilled or not.

    Those people can face roll their way to a victory one on one or even one on two. The skilled ones are the fuckers who manage to take down half an AB team on their own. The skilled one probably could've gone one on two and won without twinking, but with the inherant advantage found in an absurd gear gap they are nigh unstoppable.

    Wait, wait. You mean people play competitive games to WIN?

    This is earth-shattering news.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    It's only a competitive game if both sides stand a good chance of winning, though.

    815165 on
  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    You don't put 4,000 gold worth of enchants on a level 19 character because you want some hearty pvp. The vast majority of people do it to be a douchebag.

    I don't think the majority of players want "hearty pvp," nor do I think they want to be douchebags. They just want to win. I mean the whole point of the game is get as powerful as possible, no matter what you're doing, and that applies to pvp as well. If being incredibly powerful is a douche move then every WoW player is guilty of it.

    Nobody wants to only win 50% of matches or have every match drag out for an hour because you're evenly matched. Some people want a challenge, but everybody desires to win 100% of the time, ideally.

    EDIT: Oh hey, this happens to apply to the last couple of posts, too. Essentially I wanted to say that people don't twink to be dicks, they twink to win.
    815165 wrote: »
    It's only a competitive game if both sides stand a good chance of winning, though.

    Both sides have the same opportunity to win.

    UncleSporky on
    Switch Friend Code: SW - 5443 - 2358 - 9118 || 3DS Friend Code: 0989 - 1731 - 9504 || NNID: unclesporky
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    815165 wrote: »
    It's only a competitive game if both sides stand a good chance of winning, though.

    So I should complain when anyone loses in football?

    I mean, everyone should have a chance of winning, right?

    I suppose I should also start playing TF2 with only one hand. I mean, it's not fair that I can set cloaked Spys on fire, so I should give them a fair chance to Backstab me. Right?

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Wait, wait. You mean people play competitive games to WIN?

    This is earth-shattering news.
    815165 wrote: »
    It's only a competitive game if both sides stand a good chance of winning, though.

    What 815165 said.

    Don't be dense.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • NerdtendoNerdtendo Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    815165 wrote: »
    It's only a competitive game if both sides stand a good chance of winning, though.

    If both sides stand a good chance of winning?

    Are we talking like, you know, better than average? So, how's that work? Both sides have an 80% chance to win?

    Yeah, I'm being a dick.

    No matter what, we'll always have situations where one side is completely outmatched.

    Nerdtendo on
    IHZR47b.png
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Don't be dense.
    Applies to three of the last four posts.

    Really, there's no point in being needlessly obtuse just because someone brings up a good point that you don't have an answer for.

    815165 on
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Wait, wait. You mean people play competitive games to WIN?

    This is earth-shattering news.
    815165 wrote: »
    It's only a competitive game if both sides stand a good chance of winning, though.

    What 815165 said.

    Don't be dense.

    Let me guess, you went to one of those schools that didn't let you keep score during phys-ed, because it wasn't nice to make the losing team feel bad.

    Protip: No one plays a game to lose. They play a game to win. And they will use every edge, handhold, and knife in the back of their opponent to do so.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    815165 wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Don't be dense.
    Applies to three of the last four posts.

    Really, there's no point in being needlessly obtuse just because someone brings up a good point that you don't have an answer for.

    Your "point" seems to be that people "shouldn't twink" because it's "not fair."

    Is it "not fair" that the guy at L70 has better gear because his guild could raid more often/better instances/got luckier drops? Or is that just how the die rolls?

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • MunacraMunacra Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Both factions have an opportunity to twink, and this practice seems to be actively encouraged by the WoW gameplay design judging.

    Twinking is just another strategy to achieve victory. Which can be countered by bringing your own twinks. I don't believe it is a good practice, but that's how the game is played.

    Munacra on
  • DayDay Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Last I checked both sides twinks and had the same chance of making twinks as the other side. I'm not following your point exactly.

    Edit: I checked yesterday.

    Day on
    Currently Playing: TF2/Audiosurf
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
  • cncaudatacncaudata Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Nerdtendo wrote: »
    No matter what, we'll always have situations where one side is completely outmatched.

    False.

    Just because we've lived with this situation forever doesn't mean it has to be that way. Take a look at, say, MLB. Even the worst teams in the league still win 30-40% of their games. This is a competitive league.

    I would be overjoyed to have a 30-40% chance of winning a 20-29 bracket BG (or an individual fight therein).

    Let me take the analogy further.

    "But anyone can get a level 70 and then create a new twink character" - Correct, and anyone could spend 100 years building a franchise from nothing until they had revenue equal to the yankees. However, that would never happen in a league where competitiveness means anything because while you were loosing 95% of your games, you would get no revenue and your franchise would fail.

    In the end, it doesn't solve the problem. The point of the x0-x9 brackets is not (or should not be...) a playground for twinks. It should be a playground for people to pvp as they level up for a good time. This is absolutely not the case right now. There is no way for a person to pvp as they level, there is only a way to get gang raped.

    cncaudata on
    PSN: Broodax- battle.net: broodax#1163
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Nerdtendo wrote: »
    Bama wrote: »
    PierceNeck wrote: »
    Bama wrote: »
    Hey, can we stop with the claims that people only twink because they lack skill? It doesn't really add anything to the argument other than to get people's hackles up.
    Nothing adds anything to this argument ever.
    Your mom adds anything to this argument.

    I hope she's twinked out.

    She's basically a gear check. We 10-manned her the other night and she just stayed in one place and took everything we threw at her. As long as the Paladin kept Consecrating all over her she didn't pay attention to anything anybody else was doing.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    If you feel a sense of accomplishment from beating up a child in a boxing match I wouldn't call you a winner.

    This is not competition.

    If you beat someone of equal capability, I would.

    This is competition.

    edit: basicly I'm calling you baby punchers, I don't care if that baby was kind of being a dick

    815165 on
  • acronomiconacronomicon Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Let me guess, you went to one of those schools that didn't let you keep score during phys-ed, because it wasn't nice to make the losing team feel bad.

    Protip: No one plays a game to lose. They play a game to win. And they will use every edge, handhold, and knife in the back of their opponent to do so.

    Protip: Some of us don't get the same thrill of victory when we're steamrolling the other side as we do when the competition is close.

    acronomicon on
    32340.jpg
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Nerdtendo wrote: »
    No matter what, we'll always have situations where one side is completely outmatched.

    False.

    Just because we've lived with this situation forever doesn't mean it has to be that way. Take a look at, say, MLB. Even the worst teams in the league still win 30-40% of their games. This is a competitive league.

    I would be overjoyed to have a 30-40% chance of winning a 20-29 bracket BG (or an individual fight therein).

    But some teams have more money. Surely their ability to offer $Texas as opposed to $SouthDakota to a prospective young star is Unfair and must be balanced.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • DayDay Registered User
    edited September 2008
    You guys aren't making any sense. If twinks are so so prevalent and destroying the PVP then it seems there would be plenty of twinks on both sides... ?? Unless a change went in overnight that only allows Horde to twink? Did it?? OMG THAT WOULD ROCK.

    Day on
    Currently Playing: TF2/Audiosurf
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/Daymion
  • PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Let me guess, you went to one of those schools that didn't let you keep score during phys-ed, because it wasn't nice to make the losing team feel bad.

    Protip: No one plays a game to lose. They play a game to win. And they will use every edge, handhold, and knife in the back of their opponent to do so.

    Protip: Some of us don't get the same thrill of victory when we're steamrolling the other side as we do when the competition is close.

    Yes, that would be nice. But if you're just too awesome for the opposing side to handle, then they need to step their game up or get used to being shit on.

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
  • NerdtendoNerdtendo Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    Nerdtendo wrote: »
    Bama wrote: »
    PierceNeck wrote: »
    Bama wrote: »
    Hey, can we stop with the claims that people only twink because they lack skill? It doesn't really add anything to the argument other than to get people's hackles up.
    Nothing adds anything to this argument ever.
    Your mom adds anything to this argument.

    I hope she's twinked out.

    She's basically a gear check. We 10-manned her the other night and she just stayed in one place and took everything we threw at her. As long as the Paladin kept Consecrating all over her she didn't pay attention to anything anybody else was doing.

    I bet she dropped some epic pants.

    Nerdtendo on
    IHZR47b.png
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    You just have to keep everyone but the pally behind her because that breath attack is pretty nasty.

    Bama on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Let me guess, you went to one of those schools that didn't let you keep score during phys-ed, because it wasn't nice to make the losing team feel bad.

    Nope. I went to a school where we understood the concept of fair play and good sportsmanship.
    Protip: No one plays a game to lose. They play a game to win. And they will use every edge, handhold, and knife in the back of their opponent to do so.

    Protip: not everyone believes this. I play to win, I enjoy winning, but that doesn't make me blind to the concept of exploiting the system, or frowning upon those that do so.

    Under your belief system, do you condone exploiting? Actual cheating? If not, why not? They are, of course, just another method of winning, of ensuring your victory over your opponents.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • Wombat02Wombat02 Registered User
    edited September 2008
    I play to win, and by that I mean kill as many Gnolls in the cave before alliance kills Drek.

    Wombat02 on
  • NerdtendoNerdtendo Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    cncaudata wrote: »
    Nerdtendo wrote: »
    No matter what, we'll always have situations where one side is completely outmatched.

    False.

    Just because we've lived with this situation forever doesn't mean it has to be that way. Take a look at, say, MLB. Even the worst teams in the league still win 30-40% of their games. This is a competitive league.

    I would be overjoyed to have a 30-40% chance of winning a 20-29 bracket BG (or an individual fight therein).

    But some teams have more money. Surely their ability to offer $Texas as opposed to $SouthDakota to a prospective young star is Unfair and must be balanced.

    Not to mention that there's still been situations where one side was completely outmatched. I don't follow sports, but something tells me that there's been teams that played some pretty terrible seasons.

    Nerdtendo on
    IHZR47b.png
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Under your belief system, do you condone exploiting? Actual cheating? If not, why not? They are, of course, just another method of winning, of ensuring your victory over your opponents.
    You understand that exploiting and cheating are distinct from twinking, so why does it matter how he feels about them? The best idea is to design a system that will create the kind of competition you want so that the participants don't have to play referee and can just "play 'til the whistle blows."

    Bama on
This discussion has been closed.