Yeah my main point was that unlike his performances in previous games of this magnitude, he didn't just go into desperation long ball mode this time. He actually dropped the ball of some and went for the 8-12 yard routes a number of times. I've seen him go into Rex mode of throwing the ball 20+ far too many times to have believed he would have learned his mistake finally and stayed calm. Good for him. Go Bears!
Yeah my main point was that unlike his performances in previous games of this magnitude, he didn't just go into desperation long ball mode this time. He actually dropped the ball of some and went for the 8-12 yard routes a number of times. I've seen him go into Rex mode of throwing the ball 20+ far too many times to have believed he would have learned his mistake finally and stayed calm. Good for him. Go Bears!
He actually did go into the mode with that 3 and out, lofting balls down the field. Finally he managed to snap himself the hell out of it for once.
Well, that was a surprise. Last time I checked the Colts were down 21-3 and I was kinda hoping the Colts would win. Needless to say, I was pretty damn shocked when I tuned in after Battlestar Galactica to see that they had actually won. Freakin' sweet!
Sure. Rub it in.
On the bright side, at least I know who I'm rooting for in the Bowl. A Chicago/N.E. matchup would have cause me great consternation, being a Chicagoan by birth. Now, it's easy.
I do think they need to redo the Super Bowl Shuffle, with the old sets and music.
I really hope people let the Shuffle remake idea go. Look, as a Bears fan, I know that every player on our team is worse than the '85 starters, with the exception of Hester and maybe Robbie Gould.
Golded (Goulded[?] ololz) for memories clouded by nostalgia
I'm all for putting the 85 team, the shuffle, the superfans and agent orange (ditka) to rest forever, but come on:
Urlacher is better than Singletary
Berrian is better than McKinnion
Kreutz is better than Hilgenberg
Ruben Brown is better than Thayer
Miller is better than Van Horne
Tillman is better than Mike Richardson
A healthy Tommie Harris is better than William Perry
And :shock: yes indeed, Rex Grossman is better than Jim McMahon.
And depth? There's absolutely no question: Benson or Thomas Sanders? Griese or Fuller? Mark Anderson or Tyrone Keys?
The 85 team had a way better left tackle, a better defensive front 7 (especially the defensive ends) much, much, much better safeties, and Walter Payton. I'd take the 2006 team in almost every other facet of the game, including coaching.
Did you just say Urlacher is better than Singletary?
Yeah, I just stopped reading right there. Are you insane? And Jesus, Sweetness alone makes that team miles better.
Yes. Urlacher was better than Mike Singletary. Urlacher does so much more in todays NFL than Singletary was asked to do in his day, Urlacher is faster laterally, and way, way better in coverage. Urlacher was lined up as a CB on Reggie Flippin Bush! And Bush's one touchdown was against Harris and Manning, Urlacher shut him down. He shuts down literally half the field. Is the position different today than it was twenty years ago, yes, but Urlacher could do what Singletary did, Singletary could not do what Urlacher does.
And remember, the rules are different today. A lot of the Singletary mystique is the fact that he hit people in ways that would draw 15 yard penalties in today's NFL. You don't think Urlacher would be delivering a lot of the same hits if he could?
The best linebacker on the 85 team was Wilbur Marshall
Urlacher is better than Singletary
Berrian is better than McKinnion
Kreutz is better than Hilgenberg
Ruben Brown is better than Thayer
Miller is better than Van Horne
Tillman is better than Mike Richardson
A healthy Tommie Harris is better than William Perry
And :shock: yes indeed, Rex Grossman is better than Jim McMahon.
Depth, no question. Healthy harris, sure, but healthy mike brown I like alot too, but they aren't in there.
I'll give you Berrian, Kreutz, Brown, Miller, and not sure on Tillman (Steve Smith game still makes me distrust him). But come on, Grossman? And there's no argument about Singletary, he was the second best middle linebacker ever, after Butkus. Urlacher has a ways to go still. Hell, Singletary hit much harder and weighed what, 30 pounds less than Urlacher?
I wasn't a big fan of him, but the way he went out was pretty unclassy (what's the word for that). The Cowboys publicly stand behind him, then he quits.
I wasn't a big fan of him, but the way he went out was pretty unclassy (what's the word for that). The Cowboys publicly stand behind him, then he quits.
Parcells was never about class. I hope his fucking horses trample and eat his fat ass.
Urlacher is better than Singletary
Berrian is better than McKinnion
Kreutz is better than Hilgenberg
Ruben Brown is better than Thayer
Miller is better than Van Horne
Tillman is better than Mike Richardson
A healthy Tommie Harris is better than William Perry
And :shock: yes indeed, Rex Grossman is better than Jim McMahon.
Depth, no question. Healthy harris, sure, but healthy mike brown I like alot too, but they aren't in there.
I'll give you Berrian, Kreutz, Brown, Miller, and not sure on Tillman (Steve Smith game still makes me distrust him). But come on, Grossman? And there's no argument about Singletary, he was the second best middle linebacker ever, after Butkus. Urlacher has a ways to go still. Hell, Singletary hit much harder and weighed what, 30 pounds less than Urlacher?
On Tillman: Mike Richardson was the worst player on the 85 D, and a lot of DBs have been "posterized" by Steve Smith, again, rules are different in this day and age, every rule change in the last 20-30 years has been designed to help the passing game, pass interference has been enforced way more often, and so has illegal contact.
On Singletary/Urlacher/Butkus: News flash, Urlacher is better than Butkus too, Butkus played when offensive linemen weighed 260 pounds and he still wasn't as fast as Urlacher. Put Urlacher on any team in 1965 and he's the best player in the league at almost any position.
And the best argument you can come up with is that Singletary hit harder? First, prove to me that he did, secondly who cares. Roy Williams (cowoby safety not lion wide reciever) can probably hit harder than any other player in the league, he still can't cover or play his position worth a damn, I also don't care that Singletary weighed less, the fact that Urlacher is stronger and weighs more also helps to make him better.
You can look at Urlacher's stats and say "well he didn't have a single sack this year" but to do so would be to ignore what he's asked to do in that defense. Playing the cover 2 doesn't afford him the opportunities to rush the passer, and o when they go to the "tampa 2" (which divides the over into 3 segments and the under into 4 with the MLB (urlacher) as the other "over" player, as opposed to cover 2 which divides the over into 2 and the under into 5) it puts him even further from the line of scrimmage, which will keep him out of the mix on many running plays.
On Grossman: I'm tired of fighting for Rex Grossman (on many other far more football centric places than the PA forums) so I'm going to say my peace and you can counter it however you like and I'll let you win the argument.
It was Rex Grossman's first full season and the bears are in the Superbowl. He answered the bell with the best performance by a Bears QB in the playoffs since color television against Seattle. In the NFC championship game, the offense hadn't done anything in the 2nd half, they had gone 3 and out after the safety put them up by 4. The Bears got the ball back again, the Saints sold out to stop the run and made Grossman beat them, and Rex put together a drive that swung the game to the Bears. You can debate that McMahon was better, but I'll take Grossman's arm strength, accuracy and poise over McMahon's ability to scramble.
Is anyone else thinking that officiating is going to once again be a big deal in this superbowl? I had thought the NFL was getting this under control, but looking at the Saints/Bears game I don't feel reassured.
Name one call, other than the offensive pass interference which really didn't result in much, that was unfair? The ONLY call you can go to would be the special teams fumble which started to move before the player was down. When it was retained, Peterson had it as well. Thus, a dual possession. To the best of my knowledge, it ends up being the person who comes up with it's ball, which was the Bears.
Seriously, there really wasn't any bad officiating going on.
Edit: Why are there so many goddamn Bears fans in Indiana? Are there a ton of Indy fans in Chicago too?
I doubt it. You have to understand how Indiana is laid out. Northwest Indiana, including Lake County (where I'm from) which borders on Cook County Illinois, structures everything around Chicago. In fact, Gary was founded by Chicago guys who would come to the area to hunt. NW Indiana is also not on the same time as the rest of Indiana, as it would make them an hour ahead of Chicago. That's right, Chicago is more important to this piece of Indiana than the rest of Indiana is.
The Post-Tribune recently did a story on this. There are 63 Bears season ticket holders in Lake County. There are 9 Colts season ticket holders in Lake County. The Colts don't even market there because they know it won't fly. It would be like trying to sell Rams stuff in Miami.
Well, the Bears really are a mismatch against the Colts, as far as I've seen. Grossman can't eat up the clock or control the ball the way that Peyton can. He has a good but not great offensive line and I haven't seen him do too well under pressure (Admittedly, I only watched Bears games when the Colts weren't on so I didn't catch their entire season).
You think the Colts front four are going to be able to pressure Grossman?
I hate to let facts get in the way of prevailing sentiment (everyone I've talked to), but judging from playoff performance, I'd take Grossman over Manning anytime. Grossman is averaging more touchdowns per game, less turnovers per game, and a higher QB rating than Manning.
I think that the strategy Indy used to wear out the Pats' defense would work just as well against the Bears and I expect to see it again in the superbowl. I'm worried about the Bears defense during the first half, of course, but Manning can pull a couple moves outside of the pocket and his line usually gives him plenty of time anyway so I'd be surprised if we didn't score more than we did against the Pats in as much time.
Ok. These are rose colored glasses you're looking through.
The Patriots defense and the Bears defense are two totally different beasts. As a Colts fan, you shouldn't want the Bears defense on the field. Will it wear them down? Maybe, but it'll wear your offense down faster. You don't want a weak offense against a fast team that is looking to make a turnover on every play.
Not only that, you over estimate what the offense can do. Did you see the Ravens game? Expect it to be more like that. The Bears don't get into shootouts like the Pats do. And unlike the Pats, they actually assign a defensive player to keep an eye on the tight end.
I don't know if the Colts offense, especially the line, will be able to keep up with the speed of the Bears defense.
Indy has been shutting down the run, so there's going to be a lot more pressure on Grossman than there has been in previous games and I just don't see him tossing as many long throws against the Colts as he did against the Saints. It will be an entertaining game for sure but I don't really see the Bears keeping it within seven.
Has Indy been shutting down the run? Really? Corey Dillon averaged almost seven yards per carry on them yesterday. The problem was the Pats decided to pick up the pace and shoot it out. Indy didn't stop the run. The Pats stopped running and didn't go back to it until it was too late.
Not to mention that Indy's defense showed it's weakness again in the fact that they don't finish tackles. The Jones/Benson duo are going to make them pay for that (more Jones than Benson, probably).
But hey, pick the Colts. None of the talking heads picked the Bears for this week (NO's offense is too unstoppable) and we all see how that worked out.
You know, I looked this morning for a list of calls from the Bears/Saints game, but I couldn't track one down. How about the second intentional grounding call? Brees is in safety range, and the Saints are only trying to chop up the ten yards they need to get into a couple fewer. He tosses it early anyway, under pressure, before anyone can finish running their route, so they're not too far away from the snap even... five yards in every direction is a NO uniform, so what's with the call? Now, they didn't replay the down so I couldn't look for numbers but I'm certain they didn't line up all of their receivers to one side or anything ridiculous like that.
I know how Mannings has looked in the post-season. The only time he's really pulled it out and performed well was against the Pats. When it was on the line. Clutch. Post-season Manning has been acting like regular season Manning and Grossman has looked as shaky as he has all season. The drive he put together in the second half of the Saints game was surprising, and beautiful, but I feel that looking at it as a per-game sort of stat is deceptive. The Colts just came off of a two game run against teams with amazing defenses (The Pats are second behind the Bears D in points allowed), and Manning only had one turnover yesterday. Even if he shows up and doesn't play quite so well as he did last night he will outperform Grossman because there's no denying right now that Manning is the more experienced and talented quarterback. Part of the reason why I feel this way is that I think Manning does better than Grossman when the pocket collapses and is harder to stress into a bad performance. The interceptions last week didn't spook him, and after the last games one INT he switched up his gameplan and eliminated the problem.
Indy got the work done stopping the run in the second half, which is why the Pats moved away from it: they were losing yards. Dillon's stats are, again, kind of deceptive in that they don't reflect how things were before and after his big play last night. The Chiefs and the Ravens could not effectively run the ball and after the first half, neither could the Pats. If Indy doesn't get it done right away I fully expect them to get the Bears run strategy down within two quarters. No one has stuck to the run with Indy because no one has been able to.
I'm not a Bears hater, like I said, I watched them whenever my Colts weren't on because they play good ball. From what I've seen though, I have to call it in favor of the Colts. You may very well be right about their defense; I haven't followed them quite like I follow what's obviously my favorite teaam, but throughout the season Manning's offensive line has been extraordinary, so I still think they will perform.
You know, I looked this morning for a list of calls from the Bears/Saints game, but I couldn't track one down. How about the second intentional grounding call? Brees is in safety range, and the Saints are only trying to chop up the ten yards they need to get into a couple fewer. He tosses it early anyway, under pressure, before anyone can finish running their route, so they're not too far away from the snap even... five yards in every direction is a NO uniform, so what's with the call? Now, they didn't replay the down so I couldn't look for numbers but I'm certain they didn't line up all of their receivers to one side or anything ridiculous like that.
I know how Mannings has looked in the post-season. The only time he's really pulled it out and performed well was against the Pats. When it was on the line. Clutch. Post-season Manning has been acting like regular season Manning and Grossman has looked as shaky as he has all season. The drive he put together in the second half of the Saints game was surprising, and beautiful, but I feel that looking at it as a per-game sort of stat is deceptive. The Colts just came off of a two game run against teams with amazing defenses (The Pats are second behind the Bears D in points allowed), and Manning only had one turnover yesterday. Even if he shows up and doesn't play quite so well as he did last night he will outperform Grossman because there's no denying right now that Manning is the more experienced and talented quarterback. Part of the reason why I feel this way is that I think Manning does better than Grossman when the pocket collapses and is harder to stress into a bad performance. The interceptions last week didn't spook him, and after the last games one INT he switched up his gameplan and eliminated the problem.
Indy got the work done stopping the run in the second half, which is why the Pats moved away from it: they were losing yards. Dillon's stats are, again, kind of deceptive in that they don't reflect how things were before and after his big play last night. The Chiefs and the Ravens could not effectively run the ball and after the first half, neither could the Pats. If Indy doesn't get it done right away I fully expect them to get the Bears run strategy down within two quarters. No one has stuck to the run with Indy because no one has been able to.
I'm not a Bears hater, like I said, I watched them whenever my Colts weren't on because they play good ball. From what I've seen though, I have to call it in favor of the Colts. You may very well be right about their defense; I haven't followed them quite like I follow what's obviously my favorite teaam, but throughout the season Manning's offensive line has been extraordinary, so I still think they will perform.
Don't know if this is what you mean by "a list of calls" but
As a Bears fan, I think the colts have the edge in overall talent, however, if the Bears defense lines up and plays like they did on Sunday, and the running game comes to play like they did, no team can beat them. I'm not saying they will, in fact, I'd be a little surprised if they could do that again, but if they do, the Colts are done.
If forced to lay money on the game, I'd probably take the Colts straight up, but there's no way I'd take them and lay the 7 that Vegas has on the game. Colts should win, Bears easily could win, and watching them this year, I think they will win.
You know, I looked this morning for a list of calls from the Bears/Saints game, but I couldn't track one down. How about the second intentional grounding call? Brees is in safety range, and the Saints are only trying to chop up the ten yards they need to get into a couple fewer. He tosses it early anyway, under pressure, before anyone can finish running their route, so they're not too far away from the snap even... five yards in every direction is a NO uniform, so what's with the call? Now, they didn't replay the down so I couldn't look for numbers but I'm certain they didn't line up all of their receivers to one side or anything ridiculous like that.
If you mean the one that got them the safety, the only person eligible who was in the vicinity of where the ball was thrown was McAllister who was blocking. Even after the game he said it was his mistake because he was suppose to run a quick out, but he blocked a blitz player instead. The refs made the right call.
I know how Mannings has looked in the post-season. The only time he's really pulled it out and performed well was against the Pats. When it was on the line. Clutch. Post-season Manning has been acting like regular season Manning and Grossman has looked as shaky as he has all season.
So regular season Manning had a 2:1 INT to TD ratio? Regular season Manning would average one TD throw a game? No. Like I said, you're really seeing what you want to see here.
The drive he put together in the second half of the Saints game was surprising, and beautiful, but I feel that looking at it as a per-game sort of stat is deceptive. The Colts just came off of a two game run against teams with amazing defenses (The Pats are second behind the Bears D in points allowed), and Manning only had one turnover yesterday. Even if he shows up and doesn't play quite so well as he did last night he will outperform Grossman because there's no denying right now that Manning is the more experienced and talented quarterback.
Yes, Manning has more experience and yes, Manning has more talent. I'm sorry to say that's not enough to win a Superbowl. The last "Hey Look at my offense" Superbowl team was the '99 Rams. Remember the offensive Raiders vs the defensive Bucs a few years back?
And having more experience isn't a guarantee of out performance (and it doesn't even equate to an instant win if Grossman is bad). The Pats defense doesn't even begin to compare to what Chicago did yesterday, or what they did the first 10-12 games this year.
Part of the reason why I feel this way is that I think Manning does better than Grossman when the pocket collapses and is harder to stress into a bad performance. The interceptions last week didn't spook him, and after the last games one INT he switched up his gameplan and eliminated the problem.
The big thing here is experience. This might as well be Grossman's rookie year for all the time that he's spent hurt. Just look at the last two games and you'll see that he's not going to force the long ball while under pressure into coverage. He's actually starting to mature fast.
Indy got the work done stopping the run in the second half, which is why the Pats moved away from it: they were losing yards. Dillon's stats are, again, kind of deceptive in that they don't reflect how things were before and after his big play last night. The Chiefs and the Ravens could not effectively run the ball and after the first half, neither could the Pats. If Indy doesn't get it done right away I fully expect them to get the Bears run strategy down within two quarters. No one has stuck to the run with Indy because no one has been able to.
The Chiefs couldn't run because they were stupid enough to keep trying with eight guys in the box (that was one of the worst coached games I'd ever seen). The Ravens moved the ball decently, although it was less than expected. That game I will say that the Colts D actually stepped up. Yesterday against the Pats though, it was like the Pats decided to start phoning it in the second half.
I'm not a Bears hater, like I said, I watched them whenever my Colts weren't on because they play good ball. From what I've seen though, I have to call it in favor of the Colts. You may very well be right about their defense; I haven't followed them quite like I follow what's obviously my favorite teaam, but throughout the season Manning's offensive line has been extraordinary, so I still think they will perform.
If the Bears play like they did yesterday, they are unbeatable. It doesn't matter if the Colts bring their A game or field a bunch of Pop Warner players. They made a joke out of the NFL's number one offense. The defensive linemen (especially Anderson) are far too fast. I don't think the Colts line can handle them.
Of course, if those Bears don't show up and the Colts bring their A game... then yeah, they'll win. Even I know that. I think the Bears know that too, though.
The Colts are not a look at my offense team. Their defense has made plenty of big plays lately and you shouldn't count them out. They definitely aren't going to be a non-issue for Chicago.
Regular season Manning can put it on the line and muster a big comeback when its important. Regular season Manning can develop a lead and hold it. Regular season Manning wins games. I acknowledged that he hadn't really put up the big effort until the Pats game (Where he only threw one INT), but I think that's the Manning we'll be looking at when the big game starts. I don't think it's that I'm not seeing the entire picture. Manning knows he did not perform as well as he should've against the Ravens, made some key changes, quit being over-confident, and played more conservatively. It paid off and it's a change in style that I don't think he'll abandon for the superbowl. I expect him to perform on par with his performance yesterday when the big day comes and if he does that he'll definitely cause plenty of trouble for Chicago. I also think Manning got a bit of a wake up call against the Pats, and it's going to be a boon against Chicago because he won't be so anxious to test the one-on-one coverage after last night's game.
Chicago looked damn good on the field against the Saints, but Dungy has the advantage of seeing how they're playing and knowing what to look for. I don't know how likely it is that it'll rain on gameday but that was definitely a factor in the amount of turnovers the Bears were able to force. With a dry field I don't believe it's reasonable to expect the Bears to be able to force as many turnovers against Indy as they did against the Saints.
I think the Colts run a faster, more adaptable offense than the Saints, and the QB leading their offense isn't going to make as many mistakes as Brees did.
I hate to let facts get in the way of prevailing sentiment (everyone I've talked to), but judging from playoff performance, I'd take Grossman over Manning anytime. Grossman is averaging more touchdowns per game, less turnovers per game, and a higher QB rating than Manning.
Think about that.
That's what they said about Tom Brady.
And I doubt Grossman's 46.7% completion rate in the playoffs and 1 TD/game (less than Manning, actually)is scaring anybody. Grossman's career playoff rating is 67.1 and Manning's is 83.2, so I'm not sure where you're pulling your numbers from.
And Chicago's success in the playoffs the last two years has been directly inverse to the amount of responsibility Grossman has had.
2005 season. CAR 29 @ CHI 21. Grossman 17/41, 192, 1/1
2006 season. SEA 24 @ CHI 27. Grossman 21/38, 282, 1/1
2006 season. NO 14 @ CHI 39. Grossman 11/26, 144, 1/0
There's a correlation between Grossman throwing less and Chicago performing better, both offensively and as an overall team.
I hope you Randy Moss fans like bubble screens, and the rest of you Raider fans like playaction waggle dumpoffs to the TE in the flat.
During his time at USC Kiffin was regarded as an excellent WR coach but only an average OC. This was partly because he had to follow in the footsteps of the QB-making Norm Chow, and partly because he split the OC duties with Sarkisian. His work as OC in 2005 is overlooked because he was using much of Chow's leftover plays, and had possibly the greatest assortment of offensive weapons of any college coach ever.
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DynagripBreak me a million heartsHoustonRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I hope you Randy Moss fans like bubble screens, and the rest of you Raider fans like playaction waggle dumpoffs to the TE in the flat.
During his time at USC Kiffin was regarded as an excellent WR coach but only an average OC. This was partly because he had to follow in the footsteps of the QB-making Norm Chow, and partly because he split the OC duties with Sarkisian. His work as OC in 2005 is overlooked because he was using much of Chow's leftover plays, and had possibly the greatest assortment of offensive weapons of any college coach ever.
I read somewhere(SI.com maybe?) that the raiders might be looking to trade Moss and Porter to Atlanta for Vick. So Moss might not be around to catch all those bubble screens.
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The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
I hope you Randy Moss fans like bubble screens, and the rest of you Raider fans like playaction waggle dumpoffs to the TE in the flat.
During his time at USC Kiffin was regarded as an excellent WR coach but only an average OC. This was partly because he had to follow in the footsteps of the QB-making Norm Chow, and partly because he split the OC duties with Sarkisian. His work as OC in 2005 is overlooked because he was using much of Chow's leftover plays, and had possibly the greatest assortment of offensive weapons of any college coach ever.
I read somewhere(SI.com maybe?) that the raiders might be looking to trade Moss and Porter to Atlanta for Vick. So Moss might not be around to catch all those bubble screens.
If that happened I'd be willing to bet money that the Raiders were picking Calvin Johnson. There is NO way that Al Davis with his vertical passing game fetish is going into next year with Ronald Curry and Alvis Whitted as his starting WRs.
I have no idea how Vick fits into a USC-style offense. USC pretty much never called designed runs for Palmer, Leinart or Booty. I know Chow managed to build a running game around Henry and Young, but Tennessee's O-line is far better than Oakland's, and Sark is no Chow. USC's system calls for a lot of short, accurate passes - slants, screens, dumpoffs to the flat - that allow the receiver to catch in stride and run. Accuracy is not Vick's strength.
And I doubt Grossman's 46.7% completion rate in the playoffs and 1 TD/game (less than Manning, actually)is scaring anybody. Grossman's career playoff rating is 67.1 and Manning's is 83.2, so I'm not sure where you're pulling your numbers from.
This year's playoff performance. I see how that was unclear.
There's a correlation between Grossman throwing less and Chicago performing better, both offensively and as an overall team.
Correlation, yes, but that doesn't mean that Grossman's responsibility causes them to perform poorly. The story between the two games this season (and throwing in last year's loss) is just how much the defense stepped up against the Saints.
I believe in Grossman. Yes, he's let me down at times. Love him or hate him though, he's never boring to watch. He's definitely starting to calm down and play smarter.
It's funny. I was listening to the Dan Patrick show today and he brought up if people should just be dismissing Chicago again like they did last week. I can't tell you how many people I've had to say this to since the Colts won on Sunday (especially being in Indy).
Even as a Bears fan I'm very pessimistic. I thought the Saints would kill us by pounding Deuce, for some reason they opted not to and never took the lead. Same thing goes for indy-if peyton wants to pass all day I'm confident in a win, but not if he keeps rhodes+addai pounding away up the middle. Look how well Seattle did against us by doing that, and that was with a hurt running back.
There's a correlation between Grossman throwing less and Chicago performing better, both offensively and as an overall team.
Correlation, yes, but that doesn't mean that Grossman's responsibility causes them to perform poorly. The story between the two games this season (and throwing in last year's loss) is just how much the defense stepped up against the Saints.
I believe in Grossman. Yes, he's let me down at times. Love him or hate him though, he's never boring to watch. He's definitely starting to calm down and play smarter.
It's funny. I was listening to the Dan Patrick show today and he brought up if people should just be dismissing Chicago again like they did last week. I can't tell you how many people I've had to say this to since the Colts won on Sunday (especially being in Indy).
If the difference maker is the defense, then why are we talking about Grossman?
Chicago has the edge in certain areas - RB, MLB, WLB, DT, KR/PR, etc - but QB is not one of them.
I don't understand why people were writing off Chicago last week. Last I checked, New Orleans was a dome team going outside to play in the cold. Aside from the Vick-hype-creating win of Vick's Falcons in Green Bay, I can't recall too many instances where that's turned out well for the dome team.
2005: Indy 3 @ NE 20, Atlanta 10 @ Philly 27
2004: Indy 14 @ NE 24
2003: Atlanta 6 @ Philly 20
2001: Minny 0 @ NY Giants 41
2000: Detroit 13 @ Washington 27
Heck, you could go all the way back to Houston @ Buffalo with Frank Reich's crazy 32 point comeback. I'm sure there are exceptions every now and again (probably in the wild card rounds), but for the most part dome teams going to a cold outdoor stadium is big in favor of the cold team.
I'm not writing Chicago off this week, but -again- they don't have a positional advantage at QB.
If the difference maker is the defense, then why are we talking about Grossman?
Because when everyone talks about Chicago, it's always about Grossman. Sure, some of this is holdover because I've had to defend Chicago on a bunch of public boards since the playoffs started (Fark, ESPN, etc) and everyone always goes to Grossman. I just notice that everyone conveniently ignores the fact that Grossman is doing better in the playoffs than Manning.
I don't understand why people were writing off Chicago last week. Last I checked, New Orleans was a dome team going outside to play in the cold.
I don't either, but everyone did. Everyone talked about Brees being able to play in the cold since he played at Purdue (ignoring the fact that Purdue doesn't have a lake effect or as much freak weather, not to mention they don't play past November). Everyone talked about McAllister/Bush, although they didn't average more yards per carry than Jones/Benson. Everyone just wrote them off, much like is being done now.
I'm not writing Chicago off this week, but -again- they don't have a positional advantage at QB.
Ok, I'll admit even I don't believe Grossman is better than Manning in the overall. On paper though, Grossman isn't doing bad at all. Manning is. Now imagine Manning getting into a situation of being constantly pressured and having to force throws.
I just really think Chicago has Indys number on this.
If the difference maker is the defense, then why are we talking about Grossman?
Because when everyone talks about Chicago, it's always about Grossman. Sure, some of this is holdover because I've had to defend Chicago on a bunch of public boards since the playoffs started (Fark, ESPN, etc) and everyone always goes to Grossman. I just notice that everyone conveniently ignores the fact that Grossman is doing better in the playoffs than Manning.
I don't understand why people were writing off Chicago last week. Last I checked, New Orleans was a dome team going outside to play in the cold.
I don't either, but everyone did. Everyone talked about Brees being able to play in the cold since he played at Purdue (ignoring the fact that Purdue doesn't have a lake effect or as much freak weather, not to mention they don't play past November). Everyone talked about McAllister/Bush, although they didn't average more yards per carry than Jones/Benson. Everyone just wrote them off, much like is being done now.
I'm not writing Chicago off this week, but -again- they don't have a positional advantage at QB.
Ok, I'll admit even I don't believe Grossman is better than Manning in the overall. On paper though, Grossman isn't doing bad at all. Manning is. Now imagine Manning getting into a situation of being constantly pressured and having to force throws.
I just really think Chicago has Indys number on this.
That last line is pretty much exactly how I feel about the Colts coming out over ChiCity in Miami. Admittedly I've been looking a lot closer at the team since we've been talking about them but I still think Indy has a pretty significant edge. Chicago has an amazing defense, and they could cause a lot of trouble for Indianapolis - if we didn't have one of the most amazing offensive lines in the NFL (Lowest sacks allowed in the regular season). They can, and have, stood up against persistent blitzing. Their best bet would be one-on-one assignments, which worked pretty well for NE but Peyton will probably be looking to mix up his receivers a lot more after reviewing those tapes. If the Bears expect to blitz Manning all day long and get to him they're going to get eaten alive. Manning's line is incredible against the blitz and Manning can handle that sort of pressure.
Even in games where there are an irregular number of sacks allowed (See: New England), Peyton is hard to shake. I know what his numbers look like over the playoffs, but his playoff strategy has changed and it was really reflected in his numbers against the Pats. Fewer long balls, faster passes, and better decision making are all changes that are going to carry over to the superbowl. The Peyton Manning that did just enough to squeak past the Ravens isn't going to be the one that shows up in Miami. The Peyton Manning that couldn't get into the end zone isn't going to be the Manning that shows up at Miami. Even under pressure Manning is a smart, productive quarterback and I can't see him reverting back to the sort of passing he liked to attempt in the first few weeks of the playoffs. In Miami Peyton is going to be throwing the short, hard-to-defend passes that have been his team's trademark throughout the regular season instead of trying to pick up 10+ yards on every down.
I think pass rushing is going to cause more of a problem for Grossman than it will Peyton partially because of the relative strength of their offensive lines, experience, and the difference in play style. I think that Indianapolis is going to force Grossman to ditch his normal long ball style and stick to shorter passes and, usually, accuracy isn't his biggest strength.
The biggest problem for the Colts is going to be Devin Hester. I hope Dungy can work something out to help the Colt's shoddy kickoff return team get this guy on the ground, because that's what I think our biggest issue is going to be. If we can keep Chicago from starting a bunch of their drives past the 30 or 40 then I think the ball game is a wrap.
I don't either, but everyone did. Everyone talked about Brees being able to play in the cold since he played at Purdue (ignoring the fact that Purdue doesn't have a lake effect or as much freak weather, not to mention they don't play past November). Everyone talked about McAllister/Bush, although they didn't average more yards per carry than Jones/Benson. Everyone just wrote them off, much like is being done now.
Benson doesn't belong there with Jones like they're at some sort of equal level. If Deuce and Bush are Thunder and Lightning, Jones and Benson are Lightning and Tackled for Loss.
lol @ Brees being used to cold weather because he played at Purdue 6 years ago. Folks at ESPN could tear a hammy stretching like that. I guess Bush was used to cold weather too despite playing HS and college in Southern California. I mean, he played a game at Notre Dame once.
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He actually did go into the mode with that 3 and out, lofting balls down the field. Finally he managed to snap himself the hell out of it for once.
Golded (Goulded[?] ololz) for memories clouded by nostalgia
I'm all for putting the 85 team, the shuffle, the superfans and agent orange (ditka) to rest forever, but come on:
Urlacher is better than Singletary
Berrian is better than McKinnion
Kreutz is better than Hilgenberg
Ruben Brown is better than Thayer
Miller is better than Van Horne
Tillman is better than Mike Richardson
A healthy Tommie Harris is better than William Perry
And :shock: yes indeed, Rex Grossman is better than Jim McMahon.
And depth? There's absolutely no question: Benson or Thomas Sanders? Griese or Fuller? Mark Anderson or Tyrone Keys?
The 85 team had a way better left tackle, a better defensive front 7 (especially the defensive ends) much, much, much better safeties, and Walter Payton. I'd take the 2006 team in almost every other facet of the game, including coaching.
Did you just say Urlacher is better than Singletary?
Yeah, I just stopped reading right there. Are you insane? And Jesus, Sweetness alone makes that team miles better.
Yes. Urlacher was better than Mike Singletary. Urlacher does so much more in todays NFL than Singletary was asked to do in his day, Urlacher is faster laterally, and way, way better in coverage. Urlacher was lined up as a CB on Reggie Flippin Bush! And Bush's one touchdown was against Harris and Manning, Urlacher shut him down. He shuts down literally half the field. Is the position different today than it was twenty years ago, yes, but Urlacher could do what Singletary did, Singletary could not do what Urlacher does.
And remember, the rules are different today. A lot of the Singletary mystique is the fact that he hit people in ways that would draw 15 yard penalties in today's NFL. You don't think Urlacher would be delivering a lot of the same hits if he could?
The best linebacker on the 85 team was Wilbur Marshall
The second best was Otis Wilson.
Depth, no question. Healthy harris, sure, but healthy mike brown I like alot too, but they aren't in there.
I'll give you Berrian, Kreutz, Brown, Miller, and not sure on Tillman (Steve Smith game still makes me distrust him). But come on, Grossman? And there's no argument about Singletary, he was the second best middle linebacker ever, after Butkus. Urlacher has a ways to go still. Hell, Singletary hit much harder and weighed what, 30 pounds less than Urlacher?
I wasn't a big fan of him, but the way he went out was pretty unclassy (what's the word for that). The Cowboys publicly stand behind him, then he quits.
But he'll choke on the big day. Choke ON A FIRE!
Assuming that's possible.
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On Tillman: Mike Richardson was the worst player on the 85 D, and a lot of DBs have been "posterized" by Steve Smith, again, rules are different in this day and age, every rule change in the last 20-30 years has been designed to help the passing game, pass interference has been enforced way more often, and so has illegal contact.
On Singletary/Urlacher/Butkus: News flash, Urlacher is better than Butkus too, Butkus played when offensive linemen weighed 260 pounds and he still wasn't as fast as Urlacher. Put Urlacher on any team in 1965 and he's the best player in the league at almost any position.
And the best argument you can come up with is that Singletary hit harder? First, prove to me that he did, secondly who cares. Roy Williams (cowoby safety not lion wide reciever) can probably hit harder than any other player in the league, he still can't cover or play his position worth a damn, I also don't care that Singletary weighed less, the fact that Urlacher is stronger and weighs more also helps to make him better.
You can look at Urlacher's stats and say "well he didn't have a single sack this year" but to do so would be to ignore what he's asked to do in that defense. Playing the cover 2 doesn't afford him the opportunities to rush the passer, and o when they go to the "tampa 2" (which divides the over into 3 segments and the under into 4 with the MLB (urlacher) as the other "over" player, as opposed to cover 2 which divides the over into 2 and the under into 5) it puts him even further from the line of scrimmage, which will keep him out of the mix on many running plays.
On Grossman: I'm tired of fighting for Rex Grossman (on many other far more football centric places than the PA forums) so I'm going to say my peace and you can counter it however you like and I'll let you win the argument.
It was Rex Grossman's first full season and the bears are in the Superbowl. He answered the bell with the best performance by a Bears QB in the playoffs since color television against Seattle. In the NFC championship game, the offense hadn't done anything in the 2nd half, they had gone 3 and out after the safety put them up by 4. The Bears got the ball back again, the Saints sold out to stop the run and made Grossman beat them, and Rex put together a drive that swung the game to the Bears. You can debate that McMahon was better, but I'll take Grossman's arm strength, accuracy and poise over McMahon's ability to scramble.
Seriously, there really wasn't any bad officiating going on.
I doubt it. You have to understand how Indiana is laid out. Northwest Indiana, including Lake County (where I'm from) which borders on Cook County Illinois, structures everything around Chicago. In fact, Gary was founded by Chicago guys who would come to the area to hunt. NW Indiana is also not on the same time as the rest of Indiana, as it would make them an hour ahead of Chicago. That's right, Chicago is more important to this piece of Indiana than the rest of Indiana is.
The Post-Tribune recently did a story on this. There are 63 Bears season ticket holders in Lake County. There are 9 Colts season ticket holders in Lake County. The Colts don't even market there because they know it won't fly. It would be like trying to sell Rams stuff in Miami.
You think the Colts front four are going to be able to pressure Grossman?
I hate to let facts get in the way of prevailing sentiment (everyone I've talked to), but judging from playoff performance, I'd take Grossman over Manning anytime. Grossman is averaging more touchdowns per game, less turnovers per game, and a higher QB rating than Manning.
Think about that.
Ok. These are rose colored glasses you're looking through.
The Patriots defense and the Bears defense are two totally different beasts. As a Colts fan, you shouldn't want the Bears defense on the field. Will it wear them down? Maybe, but it'll wear your offense down faster. You don't want a weak offense against a fast team that is looking to make a turnover on every play.
Not only that, you over estimate what the offense can do. Did you see the Ravens game? Expect it to be more like that. The Bears don't get into shootouts like the Pats do. And unlike the Pats, they actually assign a defensive player to keep an eye on the tight end.
I don't know if the Colts offense, especially the line, will be able to keep up with the speed of the Bears defense.
Has Indy been shutting down the run? Really? Corey Dillon averaged almost seven yards per carry on them yesterday. The problem was the Pats decided to pick up the pace and shoot it out. Indy didn't stop the run. The Pats stopped running and didn't go back to it until it was too late.
Not to mention that Indy's defense showed it's weakness again in the fact that they don't finish tackles. The Jones/Benson duo are going to make them pay for that (more Jones than Benson, probably).
But hey, pick the Colts. None of the talking heads picked the Bears for this week (NO's offense is too unstoppable) and we all see how that worked out.
I know how Mannings has looked in the post-season. The only time he's really pulled it out and performed well was against the Pats. When it was on the line. Clutch. Post-season Manning has been acting like regular season Manning and Grossman has looked as shaky as he has all season. The drive he put together in the second half of the Saints game was surprising, and beautiful, but I feel that looking at it as a per-game sort of stat is deceptive. The Colts just came off of a two game run against teams with amazing defenses (The Pats are second behind the Bears D in points allowed), and Manning only had one turnover yesterday. Even if he shows up and doesn't play quite so well as he did last night he will outperform Grossman because there's no denying right now that Manning is the more experienced and talented quarterback. Part of the reason why I feel this way is that I think Manning does better than Grossman when the pocket collapses and is harder to stress into a bad performance. The interceptions last week didn't spook him, and after the last games one INT he switched up his gameplan and eliminated the problem.
Indy got the work done stopping the run in the second half, which is why the Pats moved away from it: they were losing yards. Dillon's stats are, again, kind of deceptive in that they don't reflect how things were before and after his big play last night. The Chiefs and the Ravens could not effectively run the ball and after the first half, neither could the Pats. If Indy doesn't get it done right away I fully expect them to get the Bears run strategy down within two quarters. No one has stuck to the run with Indy because no one has been able to.
I'm not a Bears hater, like I said, I watched them whenever my Colts weren't on because they play good ball. From what I've seen though, I have to call it in favor of the Colts. You may very well be right about their defense; I haven't followed them quite like I follow what's obviously my favorite teaam, but throughout the season Manning's offensive line has been extraordinary, so I still think they will perform.
Don't know if this is what you mean by "a list of calls" but
http://www.superbowl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20070121_NO@CHI
As a Bears fan, I think the colts have the edge in overall talent, however, if the Bears defense lines up and plays like they did on Sunday, and the running game comes to play like they did, no team can beat them. I'm not saying they will, in fact, I'd be a little surprised if they could do that again, but if they do, the Colts are done.
If forced to lay money on the game, I'd probably take the Colts straight up, but there's no way I'd take them and lay the 7 that Vegas has on the game. Colts should win, Bears easily could win, and watching them this year, I think they will win.
If you mean the one that got them the safety, the only person eligible who was in the vicinity of where the ball was thrown was McAllister who was blocking. Even after the game he said it was his mistake because he was suppose to run a quick out, but he blocked a blitz player instead. The refs made the right call.
So regular season Manning had a 2:1 INT to TD ratio? Regular season Manning would average one TD throw a game? No. Like I said, you're really seeing what you want to see here.
Yes, Manning has more experience and yes, Manning has more talent. I'm sorry to say that's not enough to win a Superbowl. The last "Hey Look at my offense" Superbowl team was the '99 Rams. Remember the offensive Raiders vs the defensive Bucs a few years back?
And having more experience isn't a guarantee of out performance (and it doesn't even equate to an instant win if Grossman is bad). The Pats defense doesn't even begin to compare to what Chicago did yesterday, or what they did the first 10-12 games this year.
The big thing here is experience. This might as well be Grossman's rookie year for all the time that he's spent hurt. Just look at the last two games and you'll see that he's not going to force the long ball while under pressure into coverage. He's actually starting to mature fast.
The Chiefs couldn't run because they were stupid enough to keep trying with eight guys in the box (that was one of the worst coached games I'd ever seen). The Ravens moved the ball decently, although it was less than expected. That game I will say that the Colts D actually stepped up. Yesterday against the Pats though, it was like the Pats decided to start phoning it in the second half.
If the Bears play like they did yesterday, they are unbeatable. It doesn't matter if the Colts bring their A game or field a bunch of Pop Warner players. They made a joke out of the NFL's number one offense. The defensive linemen (especially Anderson) are far too fast. I don't think the Colts line can handle them.
Of course, if those Bears don't show up and the Colts bring their A game... then yeah, they'll win. Even I know that. I think the Bears know that too, though.
Regular season Manning can put it on the line and muster a big comeback when its important. Regular season Manning can develop a lead and hold it. Regular season Manning wins games. I acknowledged that he hadn't really put up the big effort until the Pats game (Where he only threw one INT), but I think that's the Manning we'll be looking at when the big game starts. I don't think it's that I'm not seeing the entire picture. Manning knows he did not perform as well as he should've against the Ravens, made some key changes, quit being over-confident, and played more conservatively. It paid off and it's a change in style that I don't think he'll abandon for the superbowl. I expect him to perform on par with his performance yesterday when the big day comes and if he does that he'll definitely cause plenty of trouble for Chicago. I also think Manning got a bit of a wake up call against the Pats, and it's going to be a boon against Chicago because he won't be so anxious to test the one-on-one coverage after last night's game.
Chicago looked damn good on the field against the Saints, but Dungy has the advantage of seeing how they're playing and knowing what to look for. I don't know how likely it is that it'll rain on gameday but that was definitely a factor in the amount of turnovers the Bears were able to force. With a dry field I don't believe it's reasonable to expect the Bears to be able to force as many turnovers against Indy as they did against the Saints.
I think the Colts run a faster, more adaptable offense than the Saints, and the QB leading their offense isn't going to make as many mistakes as Brees did.
Congratulations, Colts. You guys deserved that one.
That's what they said about Charlie Weis.
[spoiler:7e0a66d8e3]They were right[/spoiler:7e0a66d8e3]
That's what they said about Tom Brady.
And I doubt Grossman's 46.7% completion rate in the playoffs and 1 TD/game (less than Manning, actually)is scaring anybody. Grossman's career playoff rating is 67.1 and Manning's is 83.2, so I'm not sure where you're pulling your numbers from.
And Chicago's success in the playoffs the last two years has been directly inverse to the amount of responsibility Grossman has had.
2005 season. CAR 29 @ CHI 21. Grossman 17/41, 192, 1/1
2006 season. SEA 24 @ CHI 27. Grossman 21/38, 282, 1/1
2006 season. NO 14 @ CHI 39. Grossman 11/26, 144, 1/0
There's a correlation between Grossman throwing less and Chicago performing better, both offensively and as an overall team.
I hope you Randy Moss fans like bubble screens, and the rest of you Raider fans like playaction waggle dumpoffs to the TE in the flat.
During his time at USC Kiffin was regarded as an excellent WR coach but only an average OC. This was partly because he had to follow in the footsteps of the QB-making Norm Chow, and partly because he split the OC duties with Sarkisian. His work as OC in 2005 is overlooked because he was using much of Chow's leftover plays, and had possibly the greatest assortment of offensive weapons of any college coach ever.
I mean fuck, I do not blame anyone but the meathead coaches for the Oilers Epic chokedom back in.fd.fdfal;fhldkhfklj;aflkjl;kfakl;hflklakk,kk.fkafm,
Fuck, that game hurt so bad. So very bad.
I read somewhere(SI.com maybe?) that the raiders might be looking to trade Moss and Porter to Atlanta for Vick. So Moss might not be around to catch all those bubble screens.
If that happened I'd be willing to bet money that the Raiders were picking Calvin Johnson. There is NO way that Al Davis with his vertical passing game fetish is going into next year with Ronald Curry and Alvis Whitted as his starting WRs.
I have no idea how Vick fits into a USC-style offense. USC pretty much never called designed runs for Palmer, Leinart or Booty. I know Chow managed to build a running game around Henry and Young, but Tennessee's O-line is far better than Oakland's, and Sark is no Chow. USC's system calls for a lot of short, accurate passes - slants, screens, dumpoffs to the flat - that allow the receiver to catch in stride and run. Accuracy is not Vick's strength.
This year's playoff performance. I see how that was unclear.
Correlation, yes, but that doesn't mean that Grossman's responsibility causes them to perform poorly. The story between the two games this season (and throwing in last year's loss) is just how much the defense stepped up against the Saints.
I believe in Grossman. Yes, he's let me down at times. Love him or hate him though, he's never boring to watch. He's definitely starting to calm down and play smarter.
It's funny. I was listening to the Dan Patrick show today and he brought up if people should just be dismissing Chicago again like they did last week. I can't tell you how many people I've had to say this to since the Colts won on Sunday (especially being in Indy).
Then God help him.
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If the difference maker is the defense, then why are we talking about Grossman?
Chicago has the edge in certain areas - RB, MLB, WLB, DT, KR/PR, etc - but QB is not one of them.
I don't understand why people were writing off Chicago last week. Last I checked, New Orleans was a dome team going outside to play in the cold. Aside from the Vick-hype-creating win of Vick's Falcons in Green Bay, I can't recall too many instances where that's turned out well for the dome team.
2005: Indy 3 @ NE 20, Atlanta 10 @ Philly 27
2004: Indy 14 @ NE 24
2003: Atlanta 6 @ Philly 20
2001: Minny 0 @ NY Giants 41
2000: Detroit 13 @ Washington 27
Heck, you could go all the way back to Houston @ Buffalo with Frank Reich's crazy 32 point comeback. I'm sure there are exceptions every now and again (probably in the wild card rounds), but for the most part dome teams going to a cold outdoor stadium is big in favor of the cold team.
I'm not writing Chicago off this week, but -again- they don't have a positional advantage at QB.
I don't either, but everyone did. Everyone talked about Brees being able to play in the cold since he played at Purdue (ignoring the fact that Purdue doesn't have a lake effect or as much freak weather, not to mention they don't play past November). Everyone talked about McAllister/Bush, although they didn't average more yards per carry than Jones/Benson. Everyone just wrote them off, much like is being done now.
Ok, I'll admit even I don't believe Grossman is better than Manning in the overall. On paper though, Grossman isn't doing bad at all. Manning is. Now imagine Manning getting into a situation of being constantly pressured and having to force throws.
I just really think Chicago has Indys number on this.
That last line is pretty much exactly how I feel about the Colts coming out over ChiCity in Miami. Admittedly I've been looking a lot closer at the team since we've been talking about them but I still think Indy has a pretty significant edge. Chicago has an amazing defense, and they could cause a lot of trouble for Indianapolis - if we didn't have one of the most amazing offensive lines in the NFL (Lowest sacks allowed in the regular season). They can, and have, stood up against persistent blitzing. Their best bet would be one-on-one assignments, which worked pretty well for NE but Peyton will probably be looking to mix up his receivers a lot more after reviewing those tapes. If the Bears expect to blitz Manning all day long and get to him they're going to get eaten alive. Manning's line is incredible against the blitz and Manning can handle that sort of pressure.
Even in games where there are an irregular number of sacks allowed (See: New England), Peyton is hard to shake. I know what his numbers look like over the playoffs, but his playoff strategy has changed and it was really reflected in his numbers against the Pats. Fewer long balls, faster passes, and better decision making are all changes that are going to carry over to the superbowl. The Peyton Manning that did just enough to squeak past the Ravens isn't going to be the one that shows up in Miami. The Peyton Manning that couldn't get into the end zone isn't going to be the Manning that shows up at Miami. Even under pressure Manning is a smart, productive quarterback and I can't see him reverting back to the sort of passing he liked to attempt in the first few weeks of the playoffs. In Miami Peyton is going to be throwing the short, hard-to-defend passes that have been his team's trademark throughout the regular season instead of trying to pick up 10+ yards on every down.
I think pass rushing is going to cause more of a problem for Grossman than it will Peyton partially because of the relative strength of their offensive lines, experience, and the difference in play style. I think that Indianapolis is going to force Grossman to ditch his normal long ball style and stick to shorter passes and, usually, accuracy isn't his biggest strength.
The biggest problem for the Colts is going to be Devin Hester. I hope Dungy can work something out to help the Colt's shoddy kickoff return team get this guy on the ground, because that's what I think our biggest issue is going to be. If we can keep Chicago from starting a bunch of their drives past the 30 or 40 then I think the ball game is a wrap.
Benson doesn't belong there with Jones like they're at some sort of equal level. If Deuce and Bush are Thunder and Lightning, Jones and Benson are Lightning and Tackled for Loss.
lol @ Brees being used to cold weather because he played at Purdue 6 years ago. Folks at ESPN could tear a hammy stretching like that. I guess Bush was used to cold weather too despite playing HS and college in Southern California. I mean, he played a game at Notre Dame once.