Identity Politics [Women and Blacks]

CygnusZ

According to Wikipeida,

Identity politics is political action to advance the interests of members of a group whose members are oppressed by virtue of a shared and marginalized identity (such as race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or neurological wiring). The term has been used principally in United States politics since the 1970s.

When I was back in the USA for a brief period this summer, I was listening to Travis Smiley. His argument in favor of identity politics was that a person from a particular race in office, even if they disagree with your political views and fundamental values, will become inspirtion for other people of the same race. If one person can break the race barrier or glass ceiling, then the way is clear for others to follow. Even if there was a ultra hardcore conservative black man running for presidency, shouldn't black folk who disagree give serious consideration to voting for him for the sake of giving hope to future generations?

But you know what, I'm not a minority. I'm a white male in his twenties who lives in a homogeneous foreign country. At best I'm a Jewish, and for what it's worth, religion has always been a non-issue to me. To go a bit further, I'd say that what we often label is "race" is really "economic status". I know that in those American Presidency threads I've read some people saying that it's OK to vote FOR somebody because they're a minority. I never quite heard outrage against that line of thought.

So, what do you guys think?

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

Race plays a pretty major role in american society. It isn't the same as economic status at all, although they coincide to a disturbing degree.

It'd be real silly if your only reason for voting for a candidate was a racial/sexual one, but I don't think many people do that. I also don't think there's really anything wrong with saying "oh hey that candidate is a member of a historically marginalized group! Getting them into office would be a good thing."

real_pochacco

My ex-girlfriend made this post to facebook:

"I feel so bad for white males."

One person commented and asked me why. The other said "yes, because they are so disadvantaged in life."

I feel so sorry for them because of the following statement found in my Feminist Theory book. She was talking about Cultural Imperialism and how it generates stereotypes. As such, she says "These stereotypes so permeate the society that they are not notices as contestable [Gina has no issue at this point. It's very much true]. Just as everyone knows that the earth goes around the sun, so everyone knows that gay people are promiscuous, that Indians are alcoholics, and that women are good with children [still no disagreement, other than the slight fact that such stereotypes are not really overt]. White males, on the other hand, insofar as they escape group marking, can be individuals."

I went to the bottom of my book and wrote the following stereotypes that everyone knows about white men just as truly as they know the sun goes around the sun: White men are sexist, racist, homophobic, classics, emotionally closed off/stoic, strong 'providers,' and, as one of my commenters so nicely pointed out for me, have no disadvantages in life. My friend came up with some more:

phoenixsavant: all have or want families... all own a house... all will go through a midlife crisis and trash their family
phoenixsavant: all clueless about environmental issues, no fashion sense either..

And, finally, also demonstrated by my friend: they are always, always, ALWAYS the bad guy, even when the individual has done nothing to deserve it.

It makes me incensed that it is okay to discriminate against the majority simply because they are the majority. It is JUST AS MUCH of an injustice to infer that white men are that way, and indeed to pretend that there are no stereotypes against them, as it is to do it to anyone else.

The fact that it shows up in academia enrages me further. There is nothing to be said for neutrality, rationalism, or fairness in academia, at least in some parts. In many ways is just as unjust as the "common" folk who purport these stereotypes as if they were some of the most holy virtues.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up. "You're in power, you have nothing to complain about." Bullshit. Every person is oppressed, every person is stereotyped against, and every person is discriminated against.

No one class, race, or gender has rights to being wronged in this world. Everyone is wronged, and everyone wrongs. The more we push each other and ourselves into groups the worse it will get until we won't even see ourselves as human anymore. Indeed, human is usually the last thing we call ourselves when asked "what are you?"

That, to me, is inherently wrong. And thus, I feel so sorry for the white male, and for the world.

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

real_pochacco wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend made this post to facebook:

"I feel so bad for white males."

One person commented and asked me why. The other said "yes, because they are so disadvantaged in life."

I feel so sorry for them because of the following statement found in my Feminist Theory book. She was talking about Cultural Imperialism and how it generates stereotypes. As such, she says "These stereotypes so permeate the society that they are not notices as contestable [Gina has no issue at this point. It's very much true]. Just as everyone knows that the earth goes around the sun, so everyone knows that gay people are promiscuous, that Indians are alcoholics, and that women are good with children [still no disagreement, other than the slight fact that such stereotypes are not really overt]. White males, on the other hand, insofar as they escape group marking, can be individuals."

I went to the bottom of my book and wrote the following stereotypes that everyone knows about white men just as truly as they know the sun goes around the sun: White men are sexist, racist, homophobic, classics, emotionally closed off/stoic, strong 'providers,' and, as one of my commenters so nicely pointed out for me, have no disadvantages in life. My friend came up with some more:

phoenixsavant: all have or want families... all own a house... all will go through a midlife crisis and trash their family
phoenixsavant: all clueless about environmental issues, no fashion sense either..

And, finally, also demonstrated by my friend: they are always, always, ALWAYS the bad guy, even when the individual has done nothing to deserve it.

It makes me incensed that it is okay to discriminate against the majority simply because they are the majority. It is JUST AS MUCH of an injustice to infer that white men are that way, and indeed to pretend that there are no stereotypes against them, as it is to do it to anyone else.

The fact that it shows up in academia enrages me further. There is nothing to be said for neutrality, rationalism, or fairness in academia, at least in some parts. In many ways is just as unjust as the "common" folk who purport these stereotypes as if they were some of the most holy virtues.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up. "You're in power, you have nothing to complain about." Bullshit. Every person is oppressed, every person is stereotyped against, and every person is discriminated against.

No one class, race, or gender has rights to being wronged in this world. Everyone is wronged, and everyone wrongs. The more we push each other and ourselves into groups the worse it will get until we won't even see ourselves as human anymore. Indeed, human is usually the last thing we call ourselves when asked "what are you?"

That, to me, is inherently wrong. And thus, I feel so sorry for the white male, and for the world.

oh, man. light up the catsignal

Kagera

real_pochacco wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend made this post to facebook:

"I feel so bad for white males."

One person commented and asked me why. The other said "yes, because they are so disadvantaged in life."

I feel so sorry for them because of the following statement found in my Feminist Theory book. She was talking about Cultural Imperialism and how it generates stereotypes. As such, she says "These stereotypes so permeate the society that they are not notices as contestable [Gina has no issue at this point. It's very much true]. Just as everyone knows that the earth goes around the sun, so everyone knows that gay people are promiscuous, that Indians are alcoholics, and that women are good with children [still no disagreement, other than the slight fact that such stereotypes are not really overt]. White males, on the other hand, insofar as they escape group marking, can be individuals."

I went to the bottom of my book and wrote the following stereotypes that everyone knows about white men just as truly as they know the sun goes around the sun: White men are sexist, racist, homophobic, classics, emotionally closed off/stoic, strong 'providers,' and, as one of my commenters so nicely pointed out for me, have no disadvantages in life. My friend came up with some more:

phoenixsavant: all have or want families... all own a house... all will go through a midlife crisis and trash their family
phoenixsavant: all clueless about environmental issues, no fashion sense either..

And, finally, also demonstrated by my friend: they are always, always, ALWAYS the bad guy, even when the individual has done nothing to deserve it.

It makes me incensed that it is okay to discriminate against the majority simply because they are the majority. It is JUST AS MUCH of an injustice to infer that white men are that way, and indeed to pretend that there are no stereotypes against them, as it is to do it to anyone else.

The fact that it shows up in academia enrages me further. There is nothing to be said for neutrality, rationalism, or fairness in academia, at least in some parts. In many ways is just as unjust as the "common" folk who purport these stereotypes as if they were some of the most holy virtues.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up. "You're in power, you have nothing to complain about." Bullshit. Every person is oppressed, every person is stereotyped against, and every person is discriminated against.

No one class, race, or gender has rights to being wronged in this world. Everyone is wronged, and everyone wrongs. The more we push each other and ourselves into groups the worse it will get until we won't even see ourselves as human anymore. Indeed, human is usually the last thing we call ourselves when asked "what are you?"

That, to me, is inherently wrong. And thus, I feel so sorry for the white male, and for the world.

I'm didn't know I was suffering silently.

real_pochacco

Dyscord wrote: »

real_pochacco wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend made this post to facebook:

"I feel so bad for white males."

One person commented and asked me why. The other said "yes, because they are so disadvantaged in life."

I feel so sorry for them because of the following statement found in my Feminist Theory book. She was talking about Cultural Imperialism and how it generates stereotypes. As such, she says "These stereotypes so permeate the society that they are not notices as contestable [Gina has no issue at this point. It's very much true]. Just as everyone knows that the earth goes around the sun, so everyone knows that gay people are promiscuous, that Indians are alcoholics, and that women are good with children [still no disagreement, other than the slight fact that such stereotypes are not really overt]. White males, on the other hand, insofar as they escape group marking, can be individuals."

I went to the bottom of my book and wrote the following stereotypes that everyone knows about white men just as truly as they know the sun goes around the sun: White men are sexist, racist, homophobic, classics, emotionally closed off/stoic, strong 'providers,' and, as one of my commenters so nicely pointed out for me, have no disadvantages in life. My friend came up with some more:

phoenixsavant: all have or want families... all own a house... all will go through a midlife crisis and trash their family
phoenixsavant: all clueless about environmental issues, no fashion sense either..

And, finally, also demonstrated by my friend: they are always, always, ALWAYS the bad guy, even when the individual has done nothing to deserve it.

It makes me incensed that it is okay to discriminate against the majority simply because they are the majority. It is JUST AS MUCH of an injustice to infer that white men are that way, and indeed to pretend that there are no stereotypes against them, as it is to do it to anyone else.

The fact that it shows up in academia enrages me further. There is nothing to be said for neutrality, rationalism, or fairness in academia, at least in some parts. In many ways is just as unjust as the "common" folk who purport these stereotypes as if they were some of the most holy virtues.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up. "You're in power, you have nothing to complain about." Bullshit. Every person is oppressed, every person is stereotyped against, and every person is discriminated against.

No one class, race, or gender has rights to being wronged in this world. Everyone is wronged, and everyone wrongs. The more we push each other and ourselves into groups the worse it will get until we won't even see ourselves as human anymore. Indeed, human is usually the last thing we call ourselves when asked "what are you?"

That, to me, is inherently wrong. And thus, I feel so sorry for the white male, and for the world.

oh, man. light up the catsignal

It's funny, because I've tried to have arguments with my ex about these beliefs she has, but they always end with either a) her getting too upset for us to continue or b) me relenting and pretending like she's won.

Wonder_Hippie

real_pochacco wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend made this post to facebook:

"I feel so bad for white males."

One person commented and asked me why. The other said "yes, because they are so disadvantaged in life."

I feel so sorry for them because of the following statement found in my Feminist Theory book. She was talking about Cultural Imperialism and how it generates stereotypes. As such, she says "These stereotypes so permeate the society that they are not notices as contestable [Gina has no issue at this point. It's very much true]. Just as everyone knows that the earth goes around the sun, so everyone knows that gay people are promiscuous, that Indians are alcoholics, and that women are good with children [still no disagreement, other than the slight fact that such stereotypes are not really overt]. White males, on the other hand, insofar as they escape group marking, can be individuals."

I went to the bottom of my book and wrote the following stereotypes that everyone knows about white men just as truly as they know the sun goes around the sun: White men are sexist, racist, homophobic, classics, emotionally closed off/stoic, strong 'providers,' and, as one of my commenters so nicely pointed out for me, have no disadvantages in life. My friend came up with some more:

phoenixsavant: all have or want families... all own a house... all will go through a midlife crisis and trash their family
phoenixsavant: all clueless about environmental issues, no fashion sense either..

And, finally, also demonstrated by my friend: they are always, always, ALWAYS the bad guy, even when the individual has done nothing to deserve it.

It makes me incensed that it is okay to discriminate against the majority simply because they are the majority. It is JUST AS MUCH of an injustice to infer that white men are that way, and indeed to pretend that there are no stereotypes against them, as it is to do it to anyone else.

The fact that it shows up in academia enrages me further. There is nothing to be said for neutrality, rationalism, or fairness in academia, at least in some parts. In many ways is just as unjust as the "common" folk who purport these stereotypes as if they were some of the most holy virtues.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up. "You're in power, you have nothing to complain about." Bullshit. Every person is oppressed, every person is stereotyped against, and every person is discriminated against.

No one class, race, or gender has rights to being wronged in this world. Everyone is wronged, and everyone wrongs. The more we push each other and ourselves into groups the worse it will get until we won't even see ourselves as human anymore. Indeed, human is usually the last thing we call ourselves when asked "what are you?"

That, to me, is inherently wrong. And thus, I feel so sorry for the white male, and for the world.

Yeah, this kind of shit pisses me off. As a white male, I realized a long time ago that any prejudices or stereotypes of white men really don't matter at all because, by and large, white men are judging other white men for their presidential candidacy, job, school, loan and credit card applications. I'd challenge her to find an instance of these white male stereotypes being used to pigeon hole or oppress.

subedii

Wonder_Hippie wrote: »

real_pochacco wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend made this post to facebook:

"I feel so bad for white males."

One person commented and asked me why. The other said "yes, because they are so disadvantaged in life."

I feel so sorry for them because of the following statement found in my Feminist Theory book. She was talking about Cultural Imperialism and how it generates stereotypes. As such, she says "These stereotypes so permeate the society that they are not notices as contestable [Gina has no issue at this point. It's very much true]. Just as everyone knows that the earth goes around the sun, so everyone knows that gay people are promiscuous, that Indians are alcoholics, and that women are good with children [still no disagreement, other than the slight fact that such stereotypes are not really overt]. White males, on the other hand, insofar as they escape group marking, can be individuals."

I went to the bottom of my book and wrote the following stereotypes that everyone knows about white men just as truly as they know the sun goes around the sun: White men are sexist, racist, homophobic, classics, emotionally closed off/stoic, strong 'providers,' and, as one of my commenters so nicely pointed out for me, have no disadvantages in life. My friend came up with some more:

phoenixsavant: all have or want families... all own a house... all will go through a midlife crisis and trash their family
phoenixsavant: all clueless about environmental issues, no fashion sense either..

And, finally, also demonstrated by my friend: they are always, always, ALWAYS the bad guy, even when the individual has done nothing to deserve it.

It makes me incensed that it is okay to discriminate against the majority simply because they are the majority. It is JUST AS MUCH of an injustice to infer that white men are that way, and indeed to pretend that there are no stereotypes against them, as it is to do it to anyone else.

The fact that it shows up in academia enrages me further. There is nothing to be said for neutrality, rationalism, or fairness in academia, at least in some parts. In many ways is just as unjust as the "common" folk who purport these stereotypes as if they were some of the most holy virtues.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up. "You're in power, you have nothing to complain about." Bullshit. Every person is oppressed, every person is stereotyped against, and every person is discriminated against.

No one class, race, or gender has rights to being wronged in this world. Everyone is wronged, and everyone wrongs. The more we push each other and ourselves into groups the worse it will get until we won't even see ourselves as human anymore. Indeed, human is usually the last thing we call ourselves when asked "what are you?"

That, to me, is inherently wrong. And thus, I feel so sorry for the white male, and for the world.

Yeah, this kind of shit pisses me off. As a white male, I realized a long time ago that any prejudices or stereotypes of white men really don't matter at all because, by and large, white men are judging other white men for their presidential candidacy, job, school, loan and credit card applications. I'd challenge her to find an instance of these white male stereotypes being used to pigeon hole or oppress.

It's the standard "Reverse Racism" argument crap. Oh yes, the poor white man is so oppressed by today's liberal led agenda, the one that only cares for the other races.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up.

Oh wow, where to even begin.

TheStranger

It's always seemed strange to me how people claim that it is somehow "important" to vote for a minority running for office... that it will encourage more of that minority to run. But really... wouldn't it do more harm then good to elect some dim-bulb just because that person is a member of some minority.

There is nothing wrong with talking about how "historic" it will be, and I'm sure that seeing a member of your own group (ethnicity, race, gender, orientation) in political office can be inspiring... that does not make an individual qualified to hold that office.

CygnusZ

Dyscord wrote: »

Race plays a pretty major role in american society. It isn't the same as economic status at all, although they coincide to a disturbing degree.

It'd be real silly if your only reason for voting for a candidate was a racial/sexual one, but I don't think many people do that. I also don't think there's really anything wrong with saying "oh hey that candidate is a member of a historically marginalized group! Getting them into office would be a good thing."

I can't think of a situtation where you couldn't find something more important than race or gender. During the Obama/Clinton primary, weren't issues like health care, corruption, ability to lead and Iraq more important than race? It might be nice to give symbolic hope to a marginalized group, but I don't think that should trump a disagreement on ANY major issues.

Kagera

Wait, will your ex give white guys a sympathy lay because we are so put upon?

I mean, it's the least she could do for our persecuted peer group.

real_pochacco

Kagera wrote: »

Wait, will your ex give white guys a sympathy lay because we are so put upon?

I mean, it's the least she could do for our persecuted peer group.

Interestingly, the only person who dissented in the comments on that note (besides me) was her black boyfriend.

The Cat

I'd like to think we've moved beyond identity politics in the west, at least in these simplistic terms. And indeed, this is what a lot of interweb feminists are arguing in reference to Sarah Palin. Voting for her isn't in the interests of women. Its not like she's the only hope for women in high office, and her policies are actively anti-woman. But that hasn't stopped feminists posting 'sexism watches', pointing out where people are crossing the line from attacking Palin's politics to attacking her person. I like that. That's grownup politics.

real_pochacco

The Cat wrote: »

I'd like to think we've moved beyond identity politics in the west, at least in these simplistic terms. And indeed, this is what a lot of interweb feminists are arguing in reference to Sarah Palin. Voting for her isn't in the interests of women. Its not like she's the only hope for women in high office, and her policies are actively anti-woman. But that hasn't stopped feminists posting 'sexism watches', pointing out where people are crossing the line from attacking Palin's politics to attacking her person. I like that. That's grownup politics.

OTOH I remember during the primaries when some of those blogs would obsessively pick at criticisms against Clinton for any sign of sexism, and some of that was just ridiculous and sad.

The Cat

So they have to be perfect to gain any credence at all?

Qliphoth

Really people should just vote for whoever they think would be the better president/politician/whatever. Anything else is pretty stupid. If a person gets elected simply because of their identity and not because they'd actually be good for the position, it would fuck over whatever group they're from in the long run because it will validate racist/sexist beliefs that they are not good enough to be elected. If the first woman president fucks up a ridiculously huge amount and things go horribly bad, then thats really making it worse for the next female candidate for president because then it comes to the front of everyones minds how shit everything was the last time a female got elected and would be far more skeptical.

real_pochacco

The Cat wrote: »

So they have to be perfect to gain any credence at all?

Nope? Some of the criticisms do have credence. There is definitely sexism against Palin and there was against Clinton.

I was just pointing out the limitations/excesses of those grownup politics, I guess.

wwtMask

Haha, white men are the most oppressed people. Like, Chinese dissidents? Fuck that, those guys got it easy. Sudanese refuguees? Fucking whiners, I say. Innocent dudes at Guantanamo? They're on a fucking vacation. Nope, it's WASP males who're getting the short end of the stick. Why isn't there a foundation or some kind of charity to help out the poor, defenseless white men?

Pochacco, I kid you not, I would slap the shit out of your ex if I heard her say that shit. As a black guy, I can only dream of having the advantage/disadvantage ratio that goes along with being a white male. To call white men the most oppressed people in the world is a slap in the face of people who are actually being oppressed by violence and intimidation and economic hegemony.

subedii

wwtMask wrote: »

Haha, white men are the most oppressed people. Like, Chinese dissidents? Fuck that, those guys got it easy. Sudanese refuguees? Fucking whiners, I say. Innocent dudes at Guantanamo? They're on a fucking vacation. Nope, it's WASP males who're getting the short end of the stick. Why isn't there a foundation or some kind of charity to help out the poor, defenseless white men?

Pochacco, I kid you not, I would slap the shit out of your ex if I heard her say that shit. As a black guy, I can only dream of having the advantage/disadvantage ratio that goes along with being a white male. To call white men the most oppressed people in the world is a slap in the face of people who are actually being oppressed by violence and intimidation and economic hegemony.

Slight difference. I don't believe she's saying that white people are the "most oppressed", I believe she's saying that when they are there's nobody to stand up for them because everybody's so keen to represent the other races and are happy to view the white man as the pure evil antagonist.

It's still a frikkin retarded argument as far as I'm concerned, it's the typical cry of people who want to feel as if they're being put down when really they aren't (or at least not to the extent that they think they are). But then if I'm honest, there are groups in every race that fall into this trap of self pitying blame shifting.

tsmvengy

Wonder_Hippie wrote: »

real_pochacco wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend made this post to facebook:

"I feel so bad for white males."

One person commented and asked me why. The other said "yes, because they are so disadvantaged in life."

I feel so sorry for them because of the following statement found in my Feminist Theory book. She was talking about Cultural Imperialism and how it generates stereotypes. As such, she says "These stereotypes so permeate the society that they are not notices as contestable [Gina has no issue at this point. It's very much true]. Just as everyone knows that the earth goes around the sun, so everyone knows that gay people are promiscuous, that Indians are alcoholics, and that women are good with children [still no disagreement, other than the slight fact that such stereotypes are not really overt]. White males, on the other hand, insofar as they escape group marking, can be individuals."

I went to the bottom of my book and wrote the following stereotypes that everyone knows about white men just as truly as they know the sun goes around the sun: White men are sexist, racist, homophobic, classics, emotionally closed off/stoic, strong 'providers,' and, as one of my commenters so nicely pointed out for me, have no disadvantages in life. My friend came up with some more:

phoenixsavant: all have or want families... all own a house... all will go through a midlife crisis and trash their family
phoenixsavant: all clueless about environmental issues, no fashion sense either..

And, finally, also demonstrated by my friend: they are always, always, ALWAYS the bad guy, even when the individual has done nothing to deserve it.

It makes me incensed that it is okay to discriminate against the majority simply because they are the majority. It is JUST AS MUCH of an injustice to infer that white men are that way, and indeed to pretend that there are no stereotypes against them, as it is to do it to anyone else.

The fact that it shows up in academia enrages me further. There is nothing to be said for neutrality, rationalism, or fairness in academia, at least in some parts. In many ways is just as unjust as the "common" folk who purport these stereotypes as if they were some of the most holy virtues.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up. "You're in power, you have nothing to complain about." Bullshit. Every person is oppressed, every person is stereotyped against, and every person is discriminated against.

No one class, race, or gender has rights to being wronged in this world. Everyone is wronged, and everyone wrongs. The more we push each other and ourselves into groups the worse it will get until we won't even see ourselves as human anymore. Indeed, human is usually the last thing we call ourselves when asked "what are you?"

That, to me, is inherently wrong. And thus, I feel so sorry for the white male, and for the world.

Yeah, this kind of shit pisses me off. As a white male, I realized a long time ago that any prejudices or stereotypes of white men really don't matter at all because, by and large, white men are judging other white men for their presidential candidacy, job, school, loan and credit card applications. I'd challenge her to find an instance of these white male stereotypes being used to pigeon hole or oppress.

This is gold. Reverse racism is bullshit because white men are the ones doing the judging. Your ex is a moron and needs to realize why.

polajum

Wonder_Hippie wrote: »

real_pochacco wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend made this post to facebook:

"I feel so bad for white males."

One person commented and asked me why. The other said "yes, because they are so disadvantaged in life."

I feel so sorry for them because of the following statement found in my Feminist Theory book. She was talking about Cultural Imperialism and how it generates stereotypes. As such, she says "These stereotypes so permeate the society that they are not notices as contestable [Gina has no issue at this point. It's very much true]. Just as everyone knows that the earth goes around the sun, so everyone knows that gay people are promiscuous, that Indians are alcoholics, and that women are good with children [still no disagreement, other than the slight fact that such stereotypes are not really overt]. White males, on the other hand, insofar as they escape group marking, can be individuals."

I went to the bottom of my book and wrote the following stereotypes that everyone knows about white men just as truly as they know the sun goes around the sun: White men are sexist, racist, homophobic, classics, emotionally closed off/stoic, strong 'providers,' and, as one of my commenters so nicely pointed out for me, have no disadvantages in life. My friend came up with some more:

phoenixsavant: all have or want families... all own a house... all will go through a midlife crisis and trash their family
phoenixsavant: all clueless about environmental issues, no fashion sense either..

And, finally, also demonstrated by my friend: they are always, always, ALWAYS the bad guy, even when the individual has done nothing to deserve it.

It makes me incensed that it is okay to discriminate against the majority simply because they are the majority. It is JUST AS MUCH of an injustice to infer that white men are that way, and indeed to pretend that there are no stereotypes against them, as it is to do it to anyone else.

The fact that it shows up in academia enrages me further. There is nothing to be said for neutrality, rationalism, or fairness in academia, at least in some parts. In many ways is just as unjust as the "common" folk who purport these stereotypes as if they were some of the most holy virtues.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up. "You're in power, you have nothing to complain about." Bullshit. Every person is oppressed, every person is stereotyped against, and every person is discriminated against.

No one class, race, or gender has rights to being wronged in this world. Everyone is wronged, and everyone wrongs. The more we push each other and ourselves into groups the worse it will get until we won't even see ourselves as human anymore. Indeed, human is usually the last thing we call ourselves when asked "what are you?"

That, to me, is inherently wrong. And thus, I feel so sorry for the white male, and for the world.

Yeah, this kind of shit pisses me off. As a white male, I realized a long time ago that any prejudices or stereotypes of white men really don't matter at all because, by and large, white men are judging other white men for their presidential candidacy, job, school, loan and credit card applications. I'd challenge her to find an instance of these white male stereotypes being used to pigeon hole or oppress.

I'd invite you to try job hunting in cowboy boots while wearing a big Texas belt buckle, but I'm sure we all know what kind of jobs that'd get you.

I agree with the Feminist Theory book, actually. There's no "white guy" stereotype. There's a bunch of stereotypes that white guys get shoved into along with everyone else, but it's possible for white guys to migrate between them if they're willing to make the effort. Everyone else has an overarching gender or racial identification in addition to whatever identity they're put into by their clothes and bearing.

But it's not accurate to say that the stereotypes the OP gave as "white" aren't harmful. It's just possible for white guys to avoid being stereotyped like that.

Evil Multifarious

White men have some stupid stereotypes and cultural expectations and shit, and she's right that it happens to everyone - but the white man has to deal with the least of that kind of "oppression" by far. Whatever race or gender you are, you have to deal with some shitty nonsense, but she totally forgets that there is such a thing as degree. And what white men have to deal with? That does not even compare to what minorities have to deal with.

JebusUD

Isn't pochocos ex black? Thats what I assumed by her refering to white males.

I don't think I agree that white guys can move around sterotypes. There are a few different subtypes of "the white guy" sterotype like the redneck or the yuppie.

Obviously voting for your race over some issue is dumb as hell.

JebusUD

tsmvengy wrote: »

Wonder_Hippie wrote: »

real_pochacco wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend made this post to facebook:

"I feel so bad for white males."

One person commented and asked me why. The other said "yes, because they are so disadvantaged in life."

I feel so sorry for them because of the following statement found in my Feminist Theory book. She was talking about Cultural Imperialism and how it generates stereotypes. As such, she says "These stereotypes so permeate the society that they are not notices as contestable [Gina has no issue at this point. It's very much true]. Just as everyone knows that the earth goes around the sun, so everyone knows that gay people are promiscuous, that Indians are alcoholics, and that women are good with children [still no disagreement, other than the slight fact that such stereotypes are not really overt]. White males, on the other hand, insofar as they escape group marking, can be individuals."

I went to the bottom of my book and wrote the following stereotypes that everyone knows about white men just as truly as they know the sun goes around the sun: White men are sexist, racist, homophobic, classics, emotionally closed off/stoic, strong 'providers,' and, as one of my commenters so nicely pointed out for me, have no disadvantages in life. My friend came up with some more:

phoenixsavant: all have or want families... all own a house... all will go through a midlife crisis and trash their family
phoenixsavant: all clueless about environmental issues, no fashion sense either..

And, finally, also demonstrated by my friend: they are always, always, ALWAYS the bad guy, even when the individual has done nothing to deserve it.

It makes me incensed that it is okay to discriminate against the majority simply because they are the majority. It is JUST AS MUCH of an injustice to infer that white men are that way, and indeed to pretend that there are no stereotypes against them, as it is to do it to anyone else.

The fact that it shows up in academia enrages me further. There is nothing to be said for neutrality, rationalism, or fairness in academia, at least in some parts. In many ways is just as unjust as the "common" folk who purport these stereotypes as if they were some of the most holy virtues.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up. "You're in power, you have nothing to complain about." Bullshit. Every person is oppressed, every person is stereotyped against, and every person is discriminated against.

No one class, race, or gender has rights to being wronged in this world. Everyone is wronged, and everyone wrongs. The more we push each other and ourselves into groups the worse it will get until we won't even see ourselves as human anymore. Indeed, human is usually the last thing we call ourselves when asked "what are you?"

That, to me, is inherently wrong. And thus, I feel so sorry for the white male, and for the world.

Yeah, this kind of shit pisses me off. As a white male, I realized a long time ago that any prejudices or stereotypes of white men really don't matter at all because, by and large, white men are judging other white men for their presidential candidacy, job, school, loan and credit card applications. I'd challenge her to find an instance of these white male stereotypes being used to pigeon hole or oppress.

This is gold. Reverse racism is bullshit because white men are the ones doing the judging. Your ex is a moron and needs to realize why.

Is it? I'm sure whitey can get the club end of the stick sometimes. Percentage wise it is less though since they have built in support.

Evil Multifarious

JebusUD wrote: »

tsmvengy wrote: »

Wonder_Hippie wrote: »

real_pochacco wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend made this post to facebook:

"I feel so bad for white males."

One person commented and asked me why. The other said "yes, because they are so disadvantaged in life."

I feel so sorry for them because of the following statement found in my Feminist Theory book. She was talking about Cultural Imperialism and how it generates stereotypes. As such, she says "These stereotypes so permeate the society that they are not notices as contestable [Gina has no issue at this point. It's very much true]. Just as everyone knows that the earth goes around the sun, so everyone knows that gay people are promiscuous, that Indians are alcoholics, and that women are good with children [still no disagreement, other than the slight fact that such stereotypes are not really overt]. White males, on the other hand, insofar as they escape group marking, can be individuals."

I went to the bottom of my book and wrote the following stereotypes that everyone knows about white men just as truly as they know the sun goes around the sun: White men are sexist, racist, homophobic, classics, emotionally closed off/stoic, strong 'providers,' and, as one of my commenters so nicely pointed out for me, have no disadvantages in life. My friend came up with some more:

phoenixsavant: all have or want families... all own a house... all will go through a midlife crisis and trash their family
phoenixsavant: all clueless about environmental issues, no fashion sense either..

And, finally, also demonstrated by my friend: they are always, always, ALWAYS the bad guy, even when the individual has done nothing to deserve it.

It makes me incensed that it is okay to discriminate against the majority simply because they are the majority. It is JUST AS MUCH of an injustice to infer that white men are that way, and indeed to pretend that there are no stereotypes against them, as it is to do it to anyone else.

The fact that it shows up in academia enrages me further. There is nothing to be said for neutrality, rationalism, or fairness in academia, at least in some parts. In many ways is just as unjust as the "common" folk who purport these stereotypes as if they were some of the most holy virtues.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up. "You're in power, you have nothing to complain about." Bullshit. Every person is oppressed, every person is stereotyped against, and every person is discriminated against.

No one class, race, or gender has rights to being wronged in this world. Everyone is wronged, and everyone wrongs. The more we push each other and ourselves into groups the worse it will get until we won't even see ourselves as human anymore. Indeed, human is usually the last thing we call ourselves when asked "what are you?"

That, to me, is inherently wrong. And thus, I feel so sorry for the white male, and for the world.

Yeah, this kind of shit pisses me off. As a white male, I realized a long time ago that any prejudices or stereotypes of white men really don't matter at all because, by and large, white men are judging other white men for their presidential candidacy, job, school, loan and credit card applications. I'd challenge her to find an instance of these white male stereotypes being used to pigeon hole or oppress.

This is gold. Reverse racism is bullshit because white men are the ones doing the judging. Your ex is a moron and needs to realize why.

Is it? I'm sure whitey can get the club end of the stick sometimes. Percentage wise it is less though since they have built in support.

As males, white men have to deal with some stupid cultural issues about masculinity that are fairly harmful to the individual and society at large. As whites, I would say there is very little that actually has any effect on us. Neither one is really anywhere near as bad as minority oppression. Discussing what sucks about being a "man" is an interesting topic, of course, but men are not oppressed. White men are DEFINITELY not oppressed.

Raggaholic

CygnusZ wrote: »

Even if there was a ultra hardcore conservative black man running for presidency, shouldn't black folk who disagree give serious consideration to voting for him for the sake of giving hope to future generations?

Should? Maybe, but it would never happen. If Colin Powell ran in 2000, the vast majority of blacks would have still voted for Gore. Or stayed home.

The Cat wrote:

So they have to be perfect to gain any credence at all?

No, but when a large chunk of your sexism list is filled with nonsense like "he sat to the right of her! SEXISM!!" then people start to disregard the rest. That's true for most things.

Scalfin

JebusUD wrote: »

tsmvengy wrote: »

Wonder_Hippie wrote: »

real_pochacco wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend made this post to facebook:

"I feel so bad for white males."

One person commented and asked me why. The other said "yes, because they are so disadvantaged in life."

I feel so sorry for them because of the following statement found in my Feminist Theory book. She was talking about Cultural Imperialism and how it generates stereotypes. As such, she says "These stereotypes so permeate the society that they are not notices as contestable [Gina has no issue at this point. It's very much true]. Just as everyone knows that the earth goes around the sun, so everyone knows that gay people are promiscuous, that Indians are alcoholics, and that women are good with children [still no disagreement, other than the slight fact that such stereotypes are not really overt]. White males, on the other hand, insofar as they escape group marking, can be individuals."

I went to the bottom of my book and wrote the following stereotypes that everyone knows about white men just as truly as they know the sun goes around the sun: White men are sexist, racist, homophobic, classics, emotionally closed off/stoic, strong 'providers,' and, as one of my commenters so nicely pointed out for me, have no disadvantages in life. My friend came up with some more:

phoenixsavant: all have or want families... all own a house... all will go through a midlife crisis and trash their family
phoenixsavant: all clueless about environmental issues, no fashion sense either..

And, finally, also demonstrated by my friend: they are always, always, ALWAYS the bad guy, even when the individual has done nothing to deserve it.

It makes me incensed that it is okay to discriminate against the majority simply because they are the majority. It is JUST AS MUCH of an injustice to infer that white men are that way, and indeed to pretend that there are no stereotypes against them, as it is to do it to anyone else.

The fact that it shows up in academia enrages me further. There is nothing to be said for neutrality, rationalism, or fairness in academia, at least in some parts. In many ways is just as unjust as the "common" folk who purport these stereotypes as if they were some of the most holy virtues.

And unlike minority groups, NO ONE sticks up for the white male. So they have to sit and suffer silently, because they can't stick up for themselves without being told to sit down and shut up. "You're in power, you have nothing to complain about." Bullshit. Every person is oppressed, every person is stereotyped against, and every person is discriminated against.

No one class, race, or gender has rights to being wronged in this world. Everyone is wronged, and everyone wrongs. The more we push each other and ourselves into groups the worse it will get until we won't even see ourselves as human anymore. Indeed, human is usually the last thing we call ourselves when asked "what are you?"

That, to me, is inherently wrong. And thus, I feel so sorry for the white male, and for the world.

Yeah, this kind of shit pisses me off. As a white male, I realized a long time ago that any prejudices or stereotypes of white men really don't matter at all because, by and large, white men are judging other white men for their presidential candidacy, job, school, loan and credit card applications. I'd challenge her to find an instance of these white male stereotypes being used to pigeon hole or oppress.

This is gold. Reverse racism is bullshit because white men are the ones doing the judging. Your ex is a moron and needs to realize why.

Is it? I'm sure whitey can get the club end of the stick sometimes. Percentage wise it is less though since they have built in support.

Except for the Jews. We have both minority status and enough of a closeness to other whites to breed resentment among minorities (granted, there's not much, but it does flare up very occasionally).

JebusUD

Scalfin wrote: »

JebusUD wrote: »

Is it? I'm sure whitey can get the club end of the stick sometimes. Percentage wise it is less though since they have built in support.

Except for the Jews. We have both minority status and enough of a closeness to other whites to breed resentment among minorities (granted, there's not much, but it does flare up very occasionally).

I thought Jews were like the Irish now. Nobody really cares. I guess i've never really considered Jewish a race anyway. Or somehow they fit less into a racial category.

Raggaholic

JebusUD wrote: »

I thought Jews were like the Irish now. Nobody really cares. I guess i've never really considered Jewish a race anyway. Or somehow they fit less into a racial category.

They are for the most part like the Irish. Lots of oppression in the past. Not so much in the here and now, as the ability to assimilate is easier.

I remember once someone tried to tell me about how bad the Irish had it and used Gangs of New York as an example. I remember thinking "The same movie where, at the end, they were chasing down the blacks and killing them just for being black? That movie?"

itylus

Marx would say, identity politics is a distraction. It's the ruling class trying to make you feel like you're being included in the power structures by putting up candidates you can identify with, who will represent you in some symbolic fashion... but who are of course nothing like you, who are insiders of the power structures to which you are an outsider, and their resemblance to you is purely symbolic and entirely without substance. I don't really think I would agree with Marx but I'm certainly not going to vote for someone whose principal attraction is that they kinda look like me.


As to the other thing, about "white men" being an oppressed group or the object of prejudice or whatever... the thing is, any person who is being thought of as a representative of an "identity group" is a stereotype, and none of them are good. Perhaps some appear more attractive than others (although I guess they all have their "good" and "bad" sides) but even the good side is not really good. Because an "identity image" is not a human person; you can't live your life as "black dude" or "catholic chick", nor you can be loved or cared about for those qualities, nor can you be inspired by someone because of those labels. So, the more of your life you can spend outside of those labels, the better off you are. And I think that's the thing your friend who is sad for white men who have to live the white man stereotype is missing. Of course those stereotypes of white men are not nice, because no stereotype is nice. And in terms of the amount of room they leave for a real human being to exist in, there isn't really a meaningful difference between them. But white men, living in a country like the USA or Britain or Australia, are very often free to not live in those stereotypes, but to exist to the people around them as real human persons. But many black people, asian people, muslim people, &c, *are* made by the society around them to interact not as themselves, but as some version of the stereotype of what a "black person" is. That's the problem; if the people around you keep on seeing you as "the black guy", then it stops you from interacting with them in a mutual relationship between two human people because their inability to see you as another real human person makes that kind of interaction impossible. I could go on and on but I think that's really the essence of it, and I should go to bed.

sanstodo

subedii wrote: »

wwtMask wrote: »

Haha, white men are the most oppressed people. Like, Chinese dissidents? Fuck that, those guys got it easy. Sudanese refuguees? Fucking whiners, I say. Innocent dudes at Guantanamo? They're on a fucking vacation. Nope, it's WASP males who're getting the short end of the stick. Why isn't there a foundation or some kind of charity to help out the poor, defenseless white men?

Pochacco, I kid you not, I would slap the shit out of your ex if I heard her say that shit. As a black guy, I can only dream of having the advantage/disadvantage ratio that goes along with being a white male. To call white men the most oppressed people in the world is a slap in the face of people who are actually being oppressed by violence and intimidation and economic hegemony.

Slight difference. I don't believe she's saying that white people are the "most oppressed", I believe she's saying that when they are there's nobody to stand up for them because everybody's so keen to represent the other races and are happy to view the white man as the pure evil antagonist.

It's still a frikkin retarded argument as far as I'm concerned, it's the typical cry of people who want to feel as if they're being put down when really they aren't (or at least not to the extent that they think they are). But then if I'm honest, there are groups in every race that fall into this trap of self pitying blame shifting.

Racial resentment happens. The important distinction that needs to be made is who can act on their prejudices and who winds up disadvantaged. It is complete bullshit to claim that white men are, by and large, disadvantaged in the US. Sure, you might end up getting shitty service in a Chinese restaurant. But it will help you get a job, get promoted, run for political office, etc etc.

So whatever tiny amounts of prejudice your average white male might face pales in comparison to the prejudice that women and minorities (or minority women!) face every single day. What purpose is there in standing up for those who generally hold the keys to power, authority, and wealth?

Or to paraphrase my friend who is a fan of the Pittsburgh Pirates, "I don't fucking care if the Yankees don't make the playoffs this year. I'm a Pirates fan. You only get sympathy once your team sucks for decades."

Spoony

Evil Multifarious wrote: »

White men have some stupid stereotypes and cultural expectations and shit, and she's right that it happens to everyone - but the white man has to deal with the least of that kind of "oppression" by far. Whatever race or gender you are, you have to deal with some shitty nonsense, but she totally forgets that there is such a thing as degree. And what white men have to deal with? That does not even compare to what minorities have to deal with.

That's a horrible standard, EM. "You don't have as many problems as this dude or that chick, so you can't complain" isn't an effective system; especially if you apply it to other comparisons where one of the race/gender combos isn't a white male. By your standard, white women don't get to complain because black women have it worse and black women don't get to complain because hispanic women are even worse off than they are.

Haha, white men are the most oppressed people. Like, Chinese dissidents? Fuck that, those guys got it easy. Sudanese refuguees? Fucking whiners, I say. Innocent dudes at Guantanamo? They're on a fucking vacation. Nope, it's WASP males who're getting the short end of the stick. Why isn't there a foundation or some kind of charity to help out the poor, defenseless white men?

So the problems of Americans don't count unless they're being tortured or run down by a HIND? It's the same problem as above. Just because somewhere else in the world somebody has it worse than I do doesn't suddenly invalidate the problems I have.

durandal4532

Yes, but when you have it best I think it really gets to a point where complaining is silly. I mean, Bill Gates must deal, as all of us must, with the existential crisis of his own incipient mortality. But the man's got 50 trillion dollars. He'd better not come crying to me.

MrRezister

In my opinion, if the race/gender/religion of any given individual increases the likelihood of you voting for that person, then you are exactly as racist/sexist/bigoted as a person who would be less likely to vote for that individual for the same reason. I'd say it's likely that there are people who are affected that way in both directions, and that may never change. I only hope the two groups more or less cancel one another out.

polajum

The problem comes in when you're a white guy not named Bill Gates.

Like, maybe, a somebody in West Virginia who's dad died of black lung and who can't find a steady job because the place you live is chronically economically depressed and has a shitty education system. If you keep hearing that you don't really have it that bad, that blacks and other minorities have it much worse than you, you might build up a little resentment that direction too-especially since that shitty education system has left you not only short of employment opportunity, but also without straight facts to blame the right people for your situation.

Really, if you want to see white people stereotyped and ridiculed, look at the political threads from the Dem primary right here-just sayin'.

Yar

I do believe that in practicality the feminist textbook argument carries a lot of weight. Walking into a job/credit application, a white man is often a blank slate and is what he chooses to present himself as, whereas people with different colored skin or obvious female traits tend to get some preconceptions slapped onto them regardless of how they present themselves.

I also agree with the ex that it is somewhat counter-productive to tell ourselves that this means white men have no disadvantages and no right to complain. White males definitely can experience significant disadvantage and unfairness in their lives, not just as humans but also specifically as white males. A white male applying to college in the height of AA in the early 90s found himself at an inexcusable disadvantage. The "reverse racism" argument telling him that it's all justified and balances out with all the other privileged white males out there doesn't help him one bit.

Raggaholic

MrRezister wrote: »

In my opinion, if the race/gender/religion of any given individual increases the likelihood of you voting for that person, then you are exactly as racist/sexist/bigoted as a person who would be less likely to vote for that individual for the same reason.

I disagree. Diversity has many cultural benefits. Two equally qualified candidates, and one got the boost for being a part of a minority group that was underrepresented, I think there's nothing wrong with giving the nod to the minority.

Adrien

God dammit the phrase "reverse racism" needs to die a swift, humane death.

That's just racism.

wwtMask

Spoony wrote: »

Evil Multifarious wrote: »

White men have some stupid stereotypes and cultural expectations and shit, and she's right that it happens to everyone - but the white man has to deal with the least of that kind of "oppression" by far. Whatever race or gender you are, you have to deal with some shitty nonsense, but she totally forgets that there is such a thing as degree. And what white men have to deal with? That does not even compare to what minorities have to deal with.

That's a horrible standard, EM. "You don't have as many problems as this dude or that chick, so you can't complain" isn't an effective system; especially if you apply it to other comparisons where one of the race/gender combos isn't a white male. By your standard, white women don't get to complain because black women have it worse and black women don't get to complain because hispanic women are even worse off than they are.

Haha, white men are the most oppressed people. Like, Chinese dissidents? Fuck that, those guys got it easy. Sudanese refuguees? Fucking whiners, I say. Innocent dudes at Guantanamo? They're on a fucking vacation. Nope, it's WASP males who're getting the short end of the stick. Why isn't there a foundation or some kind of charity to help out the poor, defenseless white men?

So the problems of Americans don't count unless they're being tortured or run down by a HIND? It's the same problem as above. Just because somewhere else in the world somebody has it worse than I do doesn't suddenly invalidate the problems I have.

Read the post. The chick said white men are the most oppressed people in the world. A shitload of actually oppressed people would disagree. Moreover, I'm pretty unsympathetic to the plight of white men because, generally speaking, they're doing pretty well for themselves and aren't being hindered the same way women and minorities are. If you start 100 meters ahead of everyone else, no one gives a shit when you complain about having to run against a slight breeze.

Fencingsax

Where are you guys getting this "most oppressed" thing from? As far as I can tell she's saying that white dudes can be victim of stereotyping as much as any other.

durandal4532

Adrien wrote: »

God dammit the phrase "reverse racism" needs to die a swift, humane death.

That's just racism.

Yeah. Yes, that's true. Racism is a fine word that already means everything it needs to.


Also, the point of the Bill Gates comment is not that "white people are rich" so much as it is to point out that while everyone deals with problems, some people really do have it easier. Being white doesn't decrease your chance of succeeding. Being poor and white? Yeah. 'Cause you're poor.