My point is that you are putting way too much emphasis on Consume Strength as being some marker of a good DoK. I find that to be bullocks and pretentious, as I said.
You seem to be unfamiliar with what a "skill cap" means. A "skill cap" is when you can no longer be even slightly more effective by playing any better. When you're skill capped, you can't squeeze another ounce of effectiveness out of your character by more intelligently targeting debuffs and buffs, or by more intelligently using soul essence, or by more intelligently applying force where force is required.
You can be "good" and still not be "skill capped." Some classes "skill cap" more easily than others, DoK's happen to have an extremely, EXTREMELY high "skill cap" to play perfectly. Tracking three-four defensive variables and two or more offensive variables, along with managing multiple resources and short duration buffs happens to make DoK's, in my opinion, one of the absolute hardest classes to play perfectly, and even one of the hardest classes to play moderately well.
That you're telling me it's impossible to properly juggle buffs and healing shows me that you agree with my assessment. I don't know why we're still arguing.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited October 2008
So if I want to do scenarios heavily as I level up while pveing should I be torture or sacrifice? DR seems like I would do shit all damage and I tend to be the guy who covers gaps in my team, staying to defend the barracks or going off to help the melee dps flank, etc, so I'm more of a lone wolf small group guy than a zergbot 5000.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
I am partial Torture, partial DR. I don't find Sacrifice that terribly appealing, but as the last page of bickering have shown, I also don't find Consume Strength that awesome, so the entire utility debuff tree is not really why I play the class. I would say Torture if you want to focus exclusively in flaying flesh off peoples faces (the DoK equivalent of melting faces). Sanguinary Extension is a really nice DoT, so that's worth picking up from Torture regardless.
So if I want to do scenarios heavily as I level up while pveing should I be torture or sacrifice? DR seems like I would do shit all damage and I tend to be the guy who covers gaps in my team, staying to defend the barracks or going off to help the melee dps flank, etc, so I'm more of a lone wolf small group guy than a zergbot 5000.
Be Torture and go at least up to Curse of Khaine. I suggest picking Bloodthirst and Sanguinary Extension along the way.
I am partial Torture, partial DR. I don't find Sacrifice that terribly appealing, but as the last page of bickering have shown, I also don't find Consume Strength that awesome, so the entire utility debuff tree is not really why I play the class. I would say Torture if you want to focus exclusively in flaying flesh off peoples faces (the DoK equivalent of melting faces). Sanguinary Extension is a really nice DoT, so that's worth picking up from Torture regardless.
I would agree that the easiest way to be effective with a DoK is to go torture and be a CoKbot.
Yes, I posted this just so I could say CoKbot.
CoKbot.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited October 2008
hehehe
"cokbot"
hehehe
*coughs and tries to look serious again*
Torture it is then, yes well!
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
mor lik CoKDoK
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jpegODIE, YOUR FACEScenic Illinois FlatlandsRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
moar like quack quack
I haven't played war in a week and a half or so, my healing is getting ruuustyyyyyy.
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so I just type in this box and it goes on the screen?
the group heal of the archmage is almost kind of cheating. I can just spam it nonstop and keep my whole group almost always topped off. If somsone starts getting focus fired I throw on my hots and shield of saphery then cast my single target group heal, and back to group heal spamming. It heals like a quarter of everybody's health almost.
Hey, not really playing a healer (yet, I have a level 6 Zealot but not sure whether I'll keep her up), but this is a question about WPs. We just did a Stonetroll Crossing scenario where a level 19 WP did over 50k damage and 34k healing, far outstripping even White Lions and Sorceresses in damage, and coming in second for healing done as well.
Hey, not really playing a healer (yet, I have a level 6 Zealot but not sure whether I'll keep her up), but this is a question about WPs. We just did a Stonetroll Crossing scenario where a level 19 WP did over 50k damage and 34k healing, far outstripping even White Lions and Sorceresses in damage, and coming in second for healing done as well.
Typical results y/n? And if so... how the hell?
Well, as a Sacrifice DoK at the same level I was consistently coming in 2nd in healing and damage done in scenarios. (My wife destroys me in healing with her Zealot, and our friend destroys me in damage with her sorceress.) I think it's a combination of several things. You are very very survivable, not a tank, but if you aren't being focus fired, it's hard to take you out. This means you spend more time healing and damaging and less time running back from respawn. Also keeping up your insta-HoT on all the mdps in front of you keeps them up and really increases your healing numbers.
As to Torture vs. Sacrifice, I like Sacrifice for the utility. I'll never be a great PvE/Keep Lord killer main healer, but I can buff my group, debuff the enemy and still support the zealots and shamans by throwing out HoTs and AE heals when I have the Soul Essence.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited October 2008
Urgh the hitboxes for clicky clicky friendly targetting is such a pain in the ass I might have to set some specific targetting macros or get a mod or something.
It really should be more lenient, allow a select if you click in their general direction. It eats up too much reaction speed to check which party menu they are in (i set up all the parties on my screen).
Sometimes I just wanna click the guy right there. There. Click him damn you game damn you oh now he's dead. Thanks game. Blerg. The click hitboxes seem, I don't know, model dependent, which is not what most do (most just let ya click a rectangular box around the character). Them damn skinny witch elves and sorceresses are a real pain to select in a hurry when they're moving.
Mind you ignore all this melodrama I think the game is smegging fantastic so any defensive types just don't bother getting in a tiffy ok move along.
With that out of the way, some constructive help? What mods you guys use?
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So, is anyone playing a Salvation WP? Thus far (only a wee 11 WP alt) I am liking the healing abilities a lot more than just doing damage. I mean, I recognize I'm not a RP, since I play one of those as well, but being able to keep yourself and some comrades up whilst beating people is fun. Right now probably my favorite skill is Divine Assault, which is the channelled pummel that heals for 250% of the damage dealt. It seems with adequate +strength that it would be able to monster heals if uninterrupted. Right now it puts out ~150 a hit, or 500-600 total at 11. In contrast my RP of the same level gets about 100 off their insta-heal or 400ish off the 3s cast. That seems pretty rad, but I have no idea how it plays out later. Plus the group heal + debuff strip combo seems neat.
I'm going full alchemy, with splice into Dark Rites (I take sweeping disgorgement because I have the ability to switch my tactic set out to increase sorcerer's AoE effectiveness with the corp damage debuff, though most of the time my tactic set is as you see there, Chaotic Force, Blessing of Chaos, By Tzeentch's Will, Restorative Burst)
My set has my willpower at 500.
This works AMAZINGLY. My elixir heals for about 1400 non crit, and my flash of chaos about 350, and I have a huge crit chance with flash of chaos. Usually I'll use flash of chaos to keep people topped off, and if someone starts taking alot of damage I'll pop 2 to 3 on them for the spike heal, and as an attempt to get a crit on them. This happens more often than not. I will then switch to Elixir, which will hopefully strike a critically healed ally at this point, healing for somewhere in the vicinity of 1750-2000, 2500~ on crit. As well, each crit will restore 30 of my AP over 3 seconds, which is incredibly valuable, since it basically makes the heal I just case free, every 3 seconds.
I've tried stacking willpower and discipline, and I find it simply not to be worth it. If i did as much of that as I could, I'd be made of paper. As it stands, I've got 6,500 hit points, which is enough that it will take at least 5-7 seconds for even the most powerful assault to take me down, unelss I get zerged. When I add discipline to my tactic set, it only increases my healing output by about 100 on elixir, which in my opinion isn't worth a slot, and it's barely noticeable on flash or cordial.
Ritual of Innervation is amazing. Absolutely amazing- I don't get much AP from it, but everyone around me reaps benefits untold. Also, Tzeentch's shielding is amazing. Not only does it guard for almost 2000 damage for the whole group at ultra-long range, but it restores almost all of your AP.
I saw a couple pages back talk of this, so I thought I'd chime in with my input. I find that the AoE heal is nice, but I wouldn't spec far into it simply because usually it's one person taking the brunt of the damage, and the morale AoE abilities can usually handle most of the AoE healing that flash of chaos isn't capable of keeping up with.
That's at least a good argument for Alchemy. It's kind of hard to deny that the best healing tactics for Zealot are oriented towards the Alchemy tree, so there's synergy there that doesn't really exist for other specs as much.
Only point I take issue with is that more often than not the whole group taking damage is what I have to deal with, and not specifically one target. Even with AoE heals going it's not like you still can't throw elixirs on the single target. I suppose the difference is how good their focus firing is and what kind of group you are with - most notablyif there are any offensive-minded tanks leading the charges.
Well, Tzeentch's cordial ticks for something in the vicinity of 250-350 per 3 seconds (i can't quite remember without it in front of me), which is about 100 HPS. If you slap that on your group, you'll have quite a bit of prevention there, especially with the sporadic AoE heals from Dust of Pandemonium or your morale abilities (which you WILL be using every 60 seconds, due to By Tzeentch's Will!).
It's true, the build does not handle AoE healing as well as a dark rites build, however I'd leave the AoE healing for the specialists, and let the DoK's handle most of that, since they're much better at it than zealots or shamans are. Though the AoE healing capabilities are not up to snuff compared to a dark rites build, it is a very quick and very efficient direct healing combination, and does excellently at healing single target with sporadic support.
It all really depends on what you're trying to do, to be sure, but the crit heals come very often when you're using flash of chaos, which means you will recieve your rank 4 morale early and often, your ap will be mercifully high, and your targets will benefit more from any heals cast on them, including those cast by other healers, which is pretty nice.
Also, alchemy has Aethyric shock, which is SO bomb. Stun for 3 seconds? Yes please. Oh hello Mr. Witch Hunter! What's that, you're stunned? Oh, sorry about that. I'll just knock you off of this ledge so you can't keep attacking me. Huh? Another one? I only have to wait _20 SECONDS_ to recharge it, using the downtime to detaunt you and ask for a guard from the tank.
Think you're going to run away? I'll shock you AGAIN. Hah ha ha!
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
I'm going full alchemy, with splice into Dark Rites (I take sweeping disgorgement because I have the ability to switch my tactic set out to increase sorcerer's AoE effectiveness with the corp damage debuff, though most of the time my tactic set is as you see there, Chaotic Force, Blessing of Chaos, By Tzeentch's Will, Restorative Burst)
My set has my willpower at 500.
This works AMAZINGLY. My elixir heals for about 1400 non crit, and my flash of chaos about 350, and I have a huge crit chance with flash of chaos. Usually I'll use flash of chaos to keep people topped off, and if someone starts taking alot of damage I'll pop 2 to 3 on them for the spike heal, and as an attempt to get a crit on them. This happens more often than not. I will then switch to Elixir, which will hopefully strike a critically healed ally at this point, healing for somewhere in the vicinity of 1750-2000, 2500~ on crit. As well, each crit will restore 30 of my AP over 3 seconds, which is incredibly valuable, since it basically makes the heal I just case free, every 3 seconds.
I've tried stacking willpower and discipline, and I find it simply not to be worth it. If i did as much of that as I could, I'd be made of paper. As it stands, I've got 6,500 hit points, which is enough that it will take at least 5-7 seconds for even the most powerful assault to take me down, unelss I get zerged. When I add discipline to my tactic set, it only increases my healing output by about 100 on elixir, which in my opinion isn't worth a slot, and it's barely noticeable on flash or cordial.
Ritual of Innervation is amazing. Absolutely amazing- I don't get much AP from it, but everyone around me reaps benefits untold. Also, Tzeentch's shielding is amazing. Not only does it guard for almost 2000 damage for the whole group at ultra-long range, but it restores almost all of your AP.
I saw a couple pages back talk of this, so I thought I'd chime in with my input. I find that the AoE heal is nice, but I wouldn't spec far into it simply because usually it's one person taking the brunt of the damage, and the morale AoE abilities can usually handle most of the AoE healing that flash of chaos isn't capable of keeping up with.
YMMV, of course
Ya I agree I am a 40 Zealot spec'd Alchemy pretty much the same set up. I have less survivability at the moment but am working on it. I am rarely out healed in scenarios and in my opinion the alchemy tree is probably the best for group balance if you have other healers since both the DoK and Shammy have less direct healing spells. That said I usually hot the crap outta people then top em off with Flash, (or if I have the time/not getting beat on) Elixer. A lot of people dont like Flash of chaos but I find it to be key to keeping Focus'd targets alive, even with all hots going quite often their gonna need more and Elixer takes too long. That and after the first crit it's heal/ap cost/time taken is pretty good, I've seen flash crit for 800+.
Also, anyone else extremely frustrated by our 5 second cooldown on Remove Hex/Curse when there's like 7 or more on half the warband (and that's just the BW ones)? It's like if all the healers work together we might save 1 of them.
Just want to comment on my experience with class mirrors and player perception. I tried a shaman to rank 5 back in open, just to see how it worked. Didn't like the starting zone or the class really. (though the later dwarf vs greenskin zones are fun, go figure)
Rank 26 DoK, 24 Chosen, 15 BW , and a 10 witch hunter later, I decide to break down and try a healer - the archmage. Granted I'm a bit tired of melee dps, but this class is really fun - I'm in love. When I first started looking at the game, I didn't feel drawn to any of the order classes, so this is pretty much a complete 360. Being order on Averheim and getting near-instant scenario ques is a nice bonus, too.
Hey, not really playing a healer (yet, I have a level 6 Zealot but not sure whether I'll keep her up), but this is a question about WPs. We just did a Stonetroll Crossing scenario where a level 19 WP did over 50k damage and 34k healing, far outstripping even White Lions and Sorceresses in damage, and coming in second for healing done as well.
Typical results y/n? And if so... how the hell?
Well, as a Sacrifice DoK at the same level I was consistently coming in 2nd in healing and damage done in scenarios. (My wife destroys me in healing with her Zealot, and our friend destroys me in damage with her sorceress.) I think it's a combination of several things. You are very very survivable, not a tank, but if you aren't being focus fired, it's hard to take you out. This means you spend more time healing and damaging and less time running back from respawn. Also keeping up your insta-HoT on all the mdps in front of you keeps them up and really increases your healing numbers.
As to Torture vs. Sacrifice, I like Sacrifice for the utility. I'll never be a great PvE/Keep Lord killer main healer, but I can buff my group, debuff the enemy and still support the zealots and shamans by throwing out HoTs and AE heals when I have the Soul Essence.
You can retarget rend soul mid-stream to avoid overheal and wasted time. If you are sticking to melee and doing this then you are perhaps the most effective single target healer in the game. DPS->Heal spells don't require LOS. I frequently heal around corners and through walls. I've found that while I'm usually 2nd-4th on the healing charts and about 10th in damage, I'm still getting the most kills and a respectable amount of KB's. When my guild is with me they always hit really high numbers. My healing goes down, but I attribute this to less need of support due to overall effectivness.
Hey guys, I read mentioned in a post somewhere around here that warrior priests can do some aoeing. Were they referring to aoe healing? I was looking forward to being able to aoe down some groups of mobs to speed up the levelling a bit between scenarios popping-- its a bit annoying being able to only kill 10 mobs in between scenario pops depending on if its prime time or not.
Other than that, just loving healing as my warrior priest in scenarios now. When order get together at objectives in scenarios so I can really use my aoe heals to the best of the class its really effective. I'm looking to put my mastery points into grace instead of wrath, but only saw an aoe ability in wrath so assumed that's what everyone was talking about.
Its a bit annoying that even with full mastery in salvation, healing well seems to require order that... run across that bridge and fight on the flag-- argh :P
Equip the tactic that gives you extra fury from attacks, and spam smite.
I must be doing something wrong-- I keep getting owned, can't outheal the damage and smite's cooldown doesn't allow me to burn things down fast enough. What is up with that? Thanks.
EDIT: Might be going ok now. I can aoe down 4 enemies without being totally demolished-- is that about right?
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Hey, not really playing a healer (yet, I have a level 6 Zealot but not sure whether I'll keep her up), but this is a question about WPs. We just did a Stonetroll Crossing scenario where a level 19 WP did over 50k damage and 34k healing, far outstripping even White Lions and Sorceresses in damage, and coming in second for healing done as well.
Typical results y/n? And if so... how the hell?
Well, as a Sacrifice DoK at the same level I was consistently coming in 2nd in healing and damage done in scenarios. (My wife destroys me in healing with her Zealot, and our friend destroys me in damage with her sorceress.) I think it's a combination of several things. You are very very survivable, not a tank, but if you aren't being focus fired, it's hard to take you out. This means you spend more time healing and damaging and less time running back from respawn. Also keeping up your insta-HoT on all the mdps in front of you keeps them up and really increases your healing numbers.
As to Torture vs. Sacrifice, I like Sacrifice for the utility. I'll never be a great PvE/Keep Lord killer main healer, but I can buff my group, debuff the enemy and still support the zealots and shamans by throwing out HoTs and AE heals when I have the Soul Essence.
You can retarget rend soul mid-stream to avoid overheal and wasted time. If you are sticking to melee and doing this then you are perhaps the most effective single target healer in the game. DPS->Heal spells don't require LOS. I frequently heal around corners and through walls. I've found that while I'm usually 2nd-4th on the healing charts and about 10th in damage, I'm still getting the most kills and a respectable amount of KB's. When my guild is with me they always hit really high numbers. My healing goes down, but I attribute this to less need of support due to overall effectivness.
Wait what it doesn't have line of sight? Wow!
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Hey, not really playing a healer (yet, I have a level 6 Zealot but not sure whether I'll keep her up), but this is a question about WPs. We just did a Stonetroll Crossing scenario where a level 19 WP did over 50k damage and 34k healing, far outstripping even White Lions and Sorceresses in damage, and coming in second for healing done as well.
Typical results y/n? And if so... how the hell?
Well, as a Sacrifice DoK at the same level I was consistently coming in 2nd in healing and damage done in scenarios. (My wife destroys me in healing with her Zealot, and our friend destroys me in damage with her sorceress.) I think it's a combination of several things. You are very very survivable, not a tank, but if you aren't being focus fired, it's hard to take you out. This means you spend more time healing and damaging and less time running back from respawn. Also keeping up your insta-HoT on all the mdps in front of you keeps them up and really increases your healing numbers.
As to Torture vs. Sacrifice, I like Sacrifice for the utility. I'll never be a great PvE/Keep Lord killer main healer, but I can buff my group, debuff the enemy and still support the zealots and shamans by throwing out HoTs and AE heals when I have the Soul Essence.
You can retarget rend soul mid-stream to avoid overheal and wasted time. If you are sticking to melee and doing this then you are perhaps the most effective single target healer in the game. DPS->Heal spells don't require LOS. I frequently heal around corners and through walls. I've found that while I'm usually 2nd-4th on the healing charts and about 10th in damage, I'm still getting the most kills and a respectable amount of KB's. When my guild is with me they always hit really high numbers. My healing goes down, but I attribute this to less need of support due to overall effectivness.
Wait what it doesn't have line of sight? Wow!
It also is unaffected by healing reduction debuffs, and can heal things that are otherwise unhealable (like siege engines, and friendly NPC's.) Rend soul is like a tiny jesus.
Have to throw out mad respect to people being effective with their DoK/WP. I got horrible RSI after just getting one to level 13 with all the crap I had to do to keep other people and myself up while trying to find an enemy target to attack. I think I need an extra hand and an extra set of eyes to really get the hang of it. Going back to my Sorc for a while, much less stress.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited November 2008
I'm an absolutely terrible dok who is also afflicted with "Ignore loud mouths" syndrome. It's a very peaceful syndrome to have, I can just run around and learn how to play in my own time.
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(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Got a shaman to rank 10. Feels extremely weak, largely ineffectual. I realize now why I haven't seen a single shaman in tier 3 on either of my 22+ ranked toons.
Any word on buffs for this class? Or is it just that I and every other player that quit playing them sucked?
And I am being absolutely honest. I swear to Christ I have never seen a single shaman in a PQ or scenario after rank 21. There's been an endless legion of zealots, however.
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jpegODIE, YOUR FACEScenic Illinois FlatlandsRegistered Userregular
edited November 2008
I really do not like being specced alchemy on my zealot, r33/rr30. If I am healing one target at a time I feel like I am not helping as much as I could. I am fairly sure that if ritual of innervation wasn't so god damned awesome I would spend no points in that tree.
Got a shaman to rank 10. Feels extremely weak, largely ineffectual. I realize now why I haven't seen a single shaman in tier 3 on either of my 22+ ranked toons.
Any word on buffs for this class? Or is it just that I and every other player that quit playing them sucked?
And I am being absolutely honest. I swear to Christ I have never seen a single shaman in a PQ or scenario after rank 21. There's been an endless legion of zealots, however.
I regularly see Shamans outhealing their Order counterparts, Archmages, often by a factor of 2:1. Shamans are in plentiful supply on Ostermark, and they definitely seem to do a good job of healing. Zealots probably have the edge on them in terms of raw healing output, but having played a Witch Elf and an Ironbreaker in T3, I don't see any serious problems with Shaman RvR effectiveness. They are not a damage class, though, regardless of what you might think when looking at the Gork/Mork mechanic. I think the Archmage is weak by comparison, but that may be because the Archmages on my server seem to be obsessed with pewpewing for piss-weak damage. Meanwhile, our Bright Wizards stand next to them with 10% health, afraid to cast for fear that they blow the hell up.
As for buffs, no class is getting buffs until 1.1, which is probably coming out mid-December. There has been no information revealed to my knowledge in terms of which classes are getting buffed. I would guess that RDPS classes that aren't BW/Sorc would be at the top of the list though, as RDPS in general seems weak in contrast to those two, with not nearly enough game-changing utility to make up for it.
Got a shaman to rank 10. Feels extremely weak, largely ineffectual. I realize now why I haven't seen a single shaman in tier 3 on either of my 22+ ranked toons.
Any word on buffs for this class? Or is it just that I and every other player that quit playing them sucked?
And I am being absolutely honest. I swear to Christ I have never seen a single shaman in a PQ or scenario after rank 21. There's been an endless legion of zealots, however.
Maybe your server is weird. On the two I play on, shamans are one of the more popular classes and they are extremely effective healers who can heal better then their Archmage counterparts due to being able to keep up an AP drain on enemies so they can heal longer. They aren't better or worse healers then Zealots (not that I've had a lot of experience with Zealots) and are one of the more awesome looking careers in the game.
Got a shaman to rank 10. Feels extremely weak, largely ineffectual. I realize now why I haven't seen a single shaman in tier 3 on either of my 22+ ranked toons.
Any word on buffs for this class? Or is it just that I and every other player that quit playing them sucked?
And I am being absolutely honest. I swear to Christ I have never seen a single shaman in a PQ or scenario after rank 21. There's been an endless legion of zealots, however.
I regularly see Shamans outhealing their Order counterparts, Archmages, often by a factor of 2:1. Shamans are in plentiful supply on Ostermark, and they definitely seem to do a good job of healing. Zealots probably have the edge on them in terms of raw healing output, but having played a Witch Elf and an Ironbreaker in T3, I don't see any serious problems with Shaman RvR effectiveness. They are not a damage class, though, regardless of what you might think when looking at the Gork/Mork mechanic. I think the Archmage is weak by comparison, but that may be because the Archmages on my server seem to be obsessed with pewpewing for piss-weak damage. Meanwhile, our Bright Wizards stand next to them with 10% health, afraid to cast for fear that they blow the hell up.
As for buffs, no class is getting buffs until 1.1, which is probably coming out mid-December. There has been no information revealed to my knowledge in terms of which classes are getting buffed. I would guess that RDPS classes that aren't BW/Sorc would be at the top of the list though, as RDPS in general seems weak in contrast to those two, with not nearly enough game-changing utility to make up for it.
the number one reason for this is because of the shaman AP steal. Basically they cast it whenever it's up and they have unlimited AP. Meanwhile archmages only get an AP burn, where it destroys the other players AP and gives them to nobody (unless you use a tactic which then nets you a whopping 25 AP).
not to mention they get "gork sez stop" morale while archmages get a piss poor bubble morale that absorbs less damage than our non-morale bubble which in turn absorbs less damage than the shaman non-morale bubble.
I've topped the healing charts at least 5 times today in the scenarios I did on my archmage. The only times I didn't was when nobody was protecting me when the other side started going after me and I spend half the match dead.
(snip snip)
I think the Archmage is weak by comparison, but that may be because the Archmages on my server seem to be obsessed with pewpewing for piss-weak damage.
(snippity snip)
the number one reason for this is because of the shaman AP steal. Basically they cast it whenever it's up and they have unlimited AP. Meanwhile archmages only get an AP burn, where it destroys the other players AP and gives them to nobody (unless you use a tactic which then nets you a whopping 25 AP).
Hmm, I think I'm going to try putting Guard/Oathfriend on Archmages more often, then. Usually I'm partied up with a pair of RL friends who both rolled Bright Wizards, and I often put Guard/OF on one of them if only because games are more fun when they're not dying. However, because they have their own AP regen setup, they almost never run out of AP. As such, I've never bothered using Watch An' Learn since they never need the AP. For the amount of Grudge it costs, somebody better be getting full value from the AP it generates, or it's just not worth it. It sounds like an AM would be a good beneficiary.
(snip snip)
I think the Archmage is weak by comparison, but that may be because the Archmages on my server seem to be obsessed with pewpewing for piss-weak damage.
(snippity snip)
the number one reason for this is because of the shaman AP steal. Basically they cast it whenever it's up and they have unlimited AP. Meanwhile archmages only get an AP burn, where it destroys the other players AP and gives them to nobody (unless you use a tactic which then nets you a whopping 25 AP).
Hmm, I think I'm going to try putting Guard/Oathfriend on Archmages more often, then. Usually I'm partied up with a pair of RL friends who both rolled Bright Wizards, and I often put Guard/OF on one of them if only because games are more fun when they're not dying. However, because they have their own AP regen setup, they almost never run out of AP. As such, I've never bothered using Watch An' Learn since they never need the AP. For the amount of Grudge it costs, somebody better be getting full value from the AP it generates, or it's just not worth it. It sounds like an AM would be a good beneficiary.
Got my AM up to 16 this weekend and I'd have to agree - I'm always out of AP, it's ridiculous. I like the high magic mechanic - hopefully it gets some tweaks though. What seemed to happen a lot, was if I didn't need to heal, and started tossing out dots to build up the HM, is that I'd bottom out my AP. Most of the time I simply didn't have the AP to spare, because the entire team would just be standing around waiting for heals (BWs). It really sucks being the only healer in a scenario, obviously. What surprised me the most though was how little people actually focused me. It's funny to watch a DPS get really close to you, only to beeline towards somebody standing close to you with lower health that magically keeps getting refilled. If they did focus I could usually pop off a detaunt and then walk between worlds, and watch the 1 dmg numbers roll in as I healed/shielded myself.
(snip snip)
I think the Archmage is weak by comparison, but that may be because the Archmages on my server seem to be obsessed with pewpewing for piss-weak damage.
(snippity snip)
the number one reason for this is because of the shaman AP steal. Basically they cast it whenever it's up and they have unlimited AP. Meanwhile archmages only get an AP burn, where it destroys the other players AP and gives them to nobody (unless you use a tactic which then nets you a whopping 25 AP).
Hmm, I think I'm going to try putting Guard/Oathfriend on Archmages more often, then. Usually I'm partied up with a pair of RL friends who both rolled Bright Wizards, and I often put Guard/OF on one of them if only because games are more fun when they're not dying. However, because they have their own AP regen setup, they almost never run out of AP. As such, I've never bothered using Watch An' Learn since they never need the AP. For the amount of Grudge it costs, somebody better be getting full value from the AP it generates, or it's just not worth it. It sounds like an AM would be a good beneficiary.
Got my AM up to 16 this weekend and I'd have to agree - I'm always out of AP, it's ridiculous. I like the high magic mechanic - hopefully it gets some tweaks though. What seemed to happen a lot, was if I didn't need to heal, and started tossing out dots to build up the HM, is that I'd bottom out my AP. Most of the time I simply didn't have the AP to spare, because the entire team would just be standing around waiting for heals (BWs). It really sucks being the only healer in a scenario, obviously. What surprised me the most though was how little people actually focused me. It's funny to watch a DPS get really close to you, only to beeline towards somebody standing close to you with lower health that magically keeps getting refilled. If they did focus I could usually pop off a detaunt and then walk between worlds, and watch the 1 dmg numbers roll in as I healed/shielded myself.
I'm always out of AP with my Chosen. I didn't really run out much when playing my Zealot though. With my Sorc and sometimes the Chosen, I always remember to use the AP stealing abilities. The Sorc steals up to 200 AP with a morale ability.
8-)
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited November 2008
I found a great way to make an AM stop healing and run away is use my sacrifice ap strike tactic. Annihilates 50 ap.
Doesn't give it to me but I don't need it to, it's really useful at this low t2 level to make healers shut down for a few seconds.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Posts
You seem to be unfamiliar with what a "skill cap" means. A "skill cap" is when you can no longer be even slightly more effective by playing any better. When you're skill capped, you can't squeeze another ounce of effectiveness out of your character by more intelligently targeting debuffs and buffs, or by more intelligently using soul essence, or by more intelligently applying force where force is required.
You can be "good" and still not be "skill capped." Some classes "skill cap" more easily than others, DoK's happen to have an extremely, EXTREMELY high "skill cap" to play perfectly. Tracking three-four defensive variables and two or more offensive variables, along with managing multiple resources and short duration buffs happens to make DoK's, in my opinion, one of the absolute hardest classes to play perfectly, and even one of the hardest classes to play moderately well.
That you're telling me it's impossible to properly juggle buffs and healing shows me that you agree with my assessment. I don't know why we're still arguing.
Be Torture and go at least up to Curse of Khaine. I suggest picking Bloodthirst and Sanguinary Extension along the way.
I would agree that the easiest way to be effective with a DoK is to go torture and be a CoKbot.
Yes, I posted this just so I could say CoKbot.
CoKbot.
"cokbot"
hehehe
*coughs and tries to look serious again*
Torture it is then, yes well!
I haven't played war in a week and a half or so, my healing is getting ruuustyyyyyy.
Typical results y/n? And if so... how the hell?
I loved playing Stonetroll with my Chosen and DoK, but hate playing it with my Sorc.
Well, as a Sacrifice DoK at the same level I was consistently coming in 2nd in healing and damage done in scenarios. (My wife destroys me in healing with her Zealot, and our friend destroys me in damage with her sorceress.) I think it's a combination of several things. You are very very survivable, not a tank, but if you aren't being focus fired, it's hard to take you out. This means you spend more time healing and damaging and less time running back from respawn. Also keeping up your insta-HoT on all the mdps in front of you keeps them up and really increases your healing numbers.
As to Torture vs. Sacrifice, I like Sacrifice for the utility. I'll never be a great PvE/Keep Lord killer main healer, but I can buff my group, debuff the enemy and still support the zealots and shamans by throwing out HoTs and AE heals when I have the Soul Essence.
It really should be more lenient, allow a select if you click in their general direction. It eats up too much reaction speed to check which party menu they are in (i set up all the parties on my screen).
Sometimes I just wanna click the guy right there. There. Click him damn you game damn you oh now he's dead. Thanks game. Blerg. The click hitboxes seem, I don't know, model dependent, which is not what most do (most just let ya click a rectangular box around the character). Them damn skinny witch elves and sorceresses are a real pain to select in a hurry when they're moving.
Mind you ignore all this melodrama I think the game is smegging fantastic so any defensive types just don't bother getting in a tiffy ok move along.
With that out of the way, some constructive help? What mods you guys use?
I have a bunch of little boxes next to my char onscreen very small, with the names of people in my party. As thier health declines it shows.
Depending on what buttons I use depends on what healing I throw.
Its quite good.
Ishealbot works too.
I love the mods in this game, cos its simply a different way of presenting info, unlike wow where its required.
My Spec
I'm going full alchemy, with splice into Dark Rites (I take sweeping disgorgement because I have the ability to switch my tactic set out to increase sorcerer's AoE effectiveness with the corp damage debuff, though most of the time my tactic set is as you see there, Chaotic Force, Blessing of Chaos, By Tzeentch's Will, Restorative Burst)
My set has my willpower at 500.
This works AMAZINGLY. My elixir heals for about 1400 non crit, and my flash of chaos about 350, and I have a huge crit chance with flash of chaos. Usually I'll use flash of chaos to keep people topped off, and if someone starts taking alot of damage I'll pop 2 to 3 on them for the spike heal, and as an attempt to get a crit on them. This happens more often than not. I will then switch to Elixir, which will hopefully strike a critically healed ally at this point, healing for somewhere in the vicinity of 1750-2000, 2500~ on crit. As well, each crit will restore 30 of my AP over 3 seconds, which is incredibly valuable, since it basically makes the heal I just case free, every 3 seconds.
I've tried stacking willpower and discipline, and I find it simply not to be worth it. If i did as much of that as I could, I'd be made of paper. As it stands, I've got 6,500 hit points, which is enough that it will take at least 5-7 seconds for even the most powerful assault to take me down, unelss I get zerged. When I add discipline to my tactic set, it only increases my healing output by about 100 on elixir, which in my opinion isn't worth a slot, and it's barely noticeable on flash or cordial.
Ritual of Innervation is amazing. Absolutely amazing- I don't get much AP from it, but everyone around me reaps benefits untold. Also, Tzeentch's shielding is amazing. Not only does it guard for almost 2000 damage for the whole group at ultra-long range, but it restores almost all of your AP.
I saw a couple pages back talk of this, so I thought I'd chime in with my input. I find that the AoE heal is nice, but I wouldn't spec far into it simply because usually it's one person taking the brunt of the damage, and the morale AoE abilities can usually handle most of the AoE healing that flash of chaos isn't capable of keeping up with.
YMMV, of course
Only point I take issue with is that more often than not the whole group taking damage is what I have to deal with, and not specifically one target. Even with AoE heals going it's not like you still can't throw elixirs on the single target. I suppose the difference is how good their focus firing is and what kind of group you are with - most notablyif there are any offensive-minded tanks leading the charges.
It's true, the build does not handle AoE healing as well as a dark rites build, however I'd leave the AoE healing for the specialists, and let the DoK's handle most of that, since they're much better at it than zealots or shamans are. Though the AoE healing capabilities are not up to snuff compared to a dark rites build, it is a very quick and very efficient direct healing combination, and does excellently at healing single target with sporadic support.
It all really depends on what you're trying to do, to be sure, but the crit heals come very often when you're using flash of chaos, which means you will recieve your rank 4 morale early and often, your ap will be mercifully high, and your targets will benefit more from any heals cast on them, including those cast by other healers, which is pretty nice.
Also, alchemy has Aethyric shock, which is SO bomb. Stun for 3 seconds? Yes please. Oh hello Mr. Witch Hunter! What's that, you're stunned? Oh, sorry about that. I'll just knock you off of this ledge so you can't keep attacking me. Huh? Another one? I only have to wait _20 SECONDS_ to recharge it, using the downtime to detaunt you and ask for a guard from the tank.
Think you're going to run away? I'll shock you AGAIN. Hah ha ha!
You mentioned Ishealbot but what mod were you describing in this post?
Sounds like either Squared or Healgrid.
Ya I agree I am a 40 Zealot spec'd Alchemy pretty much the same set up. I have less survivability at the moment but am working on it. I am rarely out healed in scenarios and in my opinion the alchemy tree is probably the best for group balance if you have other healers since both the DoK and Shammy have less direct healing spells. That said I usually hot the crap outta people then top em off with Flash, (or if I have the time/not getting beat on) Elixer. A lot of people dont like Flash of chaos but I find it to be key to keeping Focus'd targets alive, even with all hots going quite often their gonna need more and Elixer takes too long. That and after the first crit it's heal/ap cost/time taken is pretty good, I've seen flash crit for 800+.
Also, anyone else extremely frustrated by our 5 second cooldown on Remove Hex/Curse when there's like 7 or more on half the warband (and that's just the BW ones)? It's like if all the healers work together we might save 1 of them.
Rank 26 DoK, 24 Chosen, 15 BW , and a 10 witch hunter later, I decide to break down and try a healer - the archmage. Granted I'm a bit tired of melee dps, but this class is really fun - I'm in love. When I first started looking at the game, I didn't feel drawn to any of the order classes, so this is pretty much a complete 360. Being order on Averheim and getting near-instant scenario ques is a nice bonus, too.
You can retarget rend soul mid-stream to avoid overheal and wasted time. If you are sticking to melee and doing this then you are perhaps the most effective single target healer in the game. DPS->Heal spells don't require LOS. I frequently heal around corners and through walls. I've found that while I'm usually 2nd-4th on the healing charts and about 10th in damage, I'm still getting the most kills and a respectable amount of KB's. When my guild is with me they always hit really high numbers. My healing goes down, but I attribute this to less need of support due to overall effectivness.
I must be doing something wrong-- I keep getting owned, can't outheal the damage and smite's cooldown doesn't allow me to burn things down fast enough. What is up with that? Thanks.
EDIT: Might be going ok now. I can aoe down 4 enemies without being totally demolished-- is that about right?
Wait what it doesn't have line of sight? Wow!
It also is unaffected by healing reduction debuffs, and can heal things that are otherwise unhealable (like siege engines, and friendly NPC's.) Rend soul is like a tiny jesus.
Any word on buffs for this class? Or is it just that I and every other player that quit playing them sucked?
And I am being absolutely honest. I swear to Christ I have never seen a single shaman in a PQ or scenario after rank 21. There's been an endless legion of zealots, however.
This is what my final spec is looking at for the time being: http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=15#5:32:6:8:9:552:25
I DO fear Pit of shades however.
Oh jesus do I fear Pit of Shades.
As for buffs, no class is getting buffs until 1.1, which is probably coming out mid-December. There has been no information revealed to my knowledge in terms of which classes are getting buffed. I would guess that RDPS classes that aren't BW/Sorc would be at the top of the list though, as RDPS in general seems weak in contrast to those two, with not nearly enough game-changing utility to make up for it.
Maybe your server is weird. On the two I play on, shamans are one of the more popular classes and they are extremely effective healers who can heal better then their Archmage counterparts due to being able to keep up an AP drain on enemies so they can heal longer. They aren't better or worse healers then Zealots (not that I've had a lot of experience with Zealots) and are one of the more awesome looking careers in the game.
the number one reason for this is because of the shaman AP steal. Basically they cast it whenever it's up and they have unlimited AP. Meanwhile archmages only get an AP burn, where it destroys the other players AP and gives them to nobody (unless you use a tactic which then nets you a whopping 25 AP).
not to mention they get "gork sez stop" morale while archmages get a piss poor bubble morale that absorbs less damage than our non-morale bubble which in turn absorbs less damage than the shaman non-morale bubble.
I've topped the healing charts at least 5 times today in the scenarios I did on my archmage. The only times I didn't was when nobody was protecting me when the other side started going after me and I spend half the match dead.
this is my current spec
here's a sample of me topping the charts, I think I rezzed 3 people that match too:
Got my AM up to 16 this weekend and I'd have to agree - I'm always out of AP, it's ridiculous. I like the high magic mechanic - hopefully it gets some tweaks though. What seemed to happen a lot, was if I didn't need to heal, and started tossing out dots to build up the HM, is that I'd bottom out my AP. Most of the time I simply didn't have the AP to spare, because the entire team would just be standing around waiting for heals (BWs). It really sucks being the only healer in a scenario, obviously. What surprised me the most though was how little people actually focused me. It's funny to watch a DPS get really close to you, only to beeline towards somebody standing close to you with lower health that magically keeps getting refilled. If they did focus I could usually pop off a detaunt and then walk between worlds, and watch the 1 dmg numbers roll in as I healed/shielded myself.
I'm always out of AP with my Chosen. I didn't really run out much when playing my Zealot though. With my Sorc and sometimes the Chosen, I always remember to use the AP stealing abilities. The Sorc steals up to 200 AP with a morale ability.
8-)
Doesn't give it to me but I don't need it to, it's really useful at this low t2 level to make healers shut down for a few seconds.