I've played with equally geared frost mages, doing naxx. No one came close to matching me on damage, and they were equally-geared. If you run the math on it, frost still won't outdamage fire, in any scenario. It's good, yes; and the water elemental is nice. But frost doesn't / shouldn't outdamage fire, with equal gear, and equal PvE specs.
the only thing that's a real pain in the ass is, for me, lack of any points in arcane. My mana regen sucks dick. But it's not too bad, considering the damage i put out, i just have to beg for moar innervatez.
Well, that's the disparity, you may do 50-70 more DPS but you eat mana twice as fast or harder...
the tortoise and the hare IMO
It's true, but on trash i'll rape the pants off any frost mages, and on bossfights i just use my gems, mana pots, and soak up innervates that otherwise would never get used anyways. On really, really long fights, frost can start catching up, but it nearly never happens and i still always come out on top, by a rather large margin. Add in paladins and their godly regen abilities, and fire will beat frost harder.
What do you guys use your Water Elements for mostly?
Im almost lvl 57 and I am fully specc'd into frost for leveling (and loving it compared to ym old Arcane and Fire speccs). I pop my water ele when I want to kill things faster, fight multiple mobs, or frostnova from afar and start blizzarding mobs.
But at 60 do you need the utility a water elemental provides so much? And how does it scale like hunter/lock pets do?
I'm trying to work out what my level 70 arena spec is going to be. I'm pretty sure it'll be frost or arcane, or some combination thereof, due to the lack of defensive abilities in fire (and cause I can't aim Dragon's Breath ). My main problem is that I have no idea what to take early in the arcane tree. Here's what I'm looking at right now.
40/0/21 Shatter-centric build. I've found Ice Block incredibly useful in the arena so far, Spell Power and Ice Shards means my Frostbolts will crit extra hard, Improved Counterspell and Arcane Power are invaluable, and after trying Arctic Winds and loving it, I think Prismatic Cloak is worth the investment. I think it'll have problems are getting people frozen, because I don't have Frostbite or the Water Elemental. I'm also not sure whether Slow or Ice Block are more valuable in the arena. The later has saved my life a lot, but Slow could really help, too.
Okay, I haven't played in months, but am I right in thinking that the Arcane +50% to crit talent plus Ice Shards would result in 300% damage frost crits? Because maybe they've changed things around whilst I've been gone, but I could swear Ice Shards used to be +50% rather than +100%.
Okay, I haven't played in months, but am I right in thinking that the Arcane +50% to crit talent plus Ice Shards would result in 300% damage frost crits? Because maybe they've changed things around whilst I've been gone, but I could swear Ice Shards used to be +50% rather than +100%.
Together they make crits do 225% or 250% damage I think.
Okay, I haven't played in months, but am I right in thinking that the Arcane +50% to crit talent plus Ice Shards would result in 300% damage frost crits? Because maybe they've changed things around whilst I've been gone, but I could swear Ice Shards used to be +50% rather than +100%.
Together they make crits do 225% or 250% damage I think.
Ice shards is 100% extra of your crit damage, so 100% of the 50% extra you get for a crit meaning 100% total extra damage. Spell power is 50% more of the crit damage so 25% more for a total of 75% extra damage. I'm not sure how they stack exactly though. Assuming they each take the original 50% bonus then its 225%, else its 250% if one takes effect after the other.
Also does anyone have dps for the water elemental and is it affected by your stats?
For frost it should be 225%, for fire close to 240%. (math taken from early posts on mage forums)
The water elemental is affected by your spellpower and other stats (it gains stamina too, afaik), and it normally hits for about 550-600 with good gear. the frostbolts are 2 (2.5?) seconds cast, so do the math. about 225-250 DPS, with good, good gear.
heh, yeah its max hp is effected by your stam, but it comes out with the same number of HP, so basically its summoned with less than 100%.
Like most mage things, its bugged, and we all know that unless it benefits mages (IE the 250% spellpower/iceshards) it wont be fixed.
Look at blink, they say its because of the terrain. Fair enough, but outlands IS EVEN WORSE. They had an oppurtunity to make sure we wont blink backwards etc, and yeah, they didnt. Blink is so bad in outlands I half hold my breath when I hit the button.
That's not very reassuring... I got my mage to 60 to level her in TBC (in lieu of the warrior), now I'm hearing nothing but complaints from all the mages... blah! I guess it happens with every class.
To be fair, I'm hearing much less complaints from mages then from other classes (except for hunters, warlocks and druids...). Actually, what's starting to worry me is the lack of complaining. This thread is barely active anymore, nor are the ones on the other forums I visit. I've begun to notice less mages in game, as well. An AV I was in yesterday only had two mages in it... between both the horde and the alliance. Shaman are arguably the most broken class right now, and our premade AB group still gets at least twice as many of them as they do mages. Hopefully it's because everyone is just waiting for the expansion.
To be fair, I'm hearing much less complaints from mages then from other classes (except for hunters, warlocks and druids...). Actually, what's starting to worry me is the lack of complaining. This thread is barely active anymore, nor are the ones on the other forums I visit. I've begun to notice less mages in game, as well. An AV I was in yesterday only had two mages in it... between both the horde and the alliance. Shaman are arguably the most broken class right now, and our premade AB group still gets at least twice as many of them as they do mages. Hopefully it's because everyone is just waiting for the expansion.
Shamans aren't broken at all from what I can tell. Anyway nothing has really changed. Classes that screwed us pre 2.0 still do and those we killed we still can. The only thing that really changed is that hunters are much more of a pain in the ass now.
Yeah noticed the same thing on the beta servers too, mages just kind of disappeared.
They say a lot of people dont post on the forums, and I agree with that. I think we are just going to see a decline in mage population as people realise while there is nothing "OMGWRONGNEEDFIX" there isnt much that shines out either.
The old advantages of portal, aoe and food/water are
Portal - set hearth to shattrah, go to portal room. Or at 70 use flying mount or BOOTS OF PORTAL (no, Im not kidding, there are boots that give you a 2nd hearthstone).
Food/Water - better stuff is still bought, hell I will be buying it, cos 1 min drinking sucks.
Single target damage is still good, but not the "jaw-dropping" that kalgan seems to think we have. Affliction/destruction locks and hunters smash mages into tiny pieces come 70.
Basically, unless you are frost, the new spells arent great.
This isnt a QQ post or any of that shit. This is just a "we are ok, but nothing shines". Except for the tinman fight in kharz, you are probably better off with another warlock.
I guess if the mage population keeps going down, then blizzard may do something. I think the flaw comes in the way mages are designed - with each elemental tree instead of role based trees like other classes.
What I wouldnt give for a Annhilation, Devestation and Knowledge tree.
my only real beef is that there's nothing that really defines them as a class, like how warlocks have demons, priests have heals out the wazoo, hunters have pets, shamans have totems etc.
While I'll agree that it's a "magey" spell, it's far from worthwhile enough to let it define the entire class. It's almost entirely worthless in PvP because damage breaks it (and it can't be used preemptively like sap, and has a long cast time unlike disorient effects). The health recovery part is also a huge downside, especially now that it's duration is only a second or so longer then Hammer of Justice or Cheap Shot.
You could fix half of my problems with mages by buffing mana shield and making Ice Block a base spell.
I guess if the mage population keeps going down, then blizzard may do something. I think the flaw comes in the way mages are designed - with each elemental tree instead of role based trees like other classes.
Um, all classes have trees based on the categories of their spells. Some of them just have more clearcut roles than others, namely the hybrids.
i don't think a single spell can define an entire class
i'd really like more magic manipulation spells for mages, perhaps that don't boost their combat worth but, like portal, create water etc. that let them do a greater range of otherwise menial tasks using magic
or, extending that to the class' combat ability, making the mage the "true" master of magic, and have more spells that affect enemy's mana, ability to cast spells or their spell effectiveness
Well...not anymore, I guess. Blizz focused a lot on boosting warlocks (I don't know about hunters and PVE, sorry) at the end-game, and now they equal and/or surpass a mage, with equal gear. Even with a fire spec, if the math is half-right (and this guy's math is right) frosties can get outdps'd by any spec warlock, and an equal geared shadow priest.
If you want I can link the thread with all the maths, or a video of a lock doing sick DPS on nightbane (last boss of karazhan), where he devastates the mage on DPS; but I don't wanna let this thread turn into an emo-cryfest :x
Warlocks are the master of pretty much everything drain. Also, it should be noted that mana drain isn't a very good spell. Rarely used.
it wouldn't necesarily be mana drain
it could be a debuff that causes an enemy to lose X% of a spell's mana cost as health
or
spells that an enemy casts cost 2X the mana
or
absorb some % of an enemy's spell to your own mana
i think basically they are not very creative with their spell and abilities, and the mage, which would normally be the most crafty and devious of the spellcasters, suffers for this because they basically end up with nothing but damage-dealing abilities
i'm not whining here, i love the mage and go back to it whenever i play the game (i've rolled about 15 mages and 2 priests and basically nothing else), i just wish it was a bit more flavoursome
Posts
It's true, but on trash i'll rape the pants off any frost mages, and on bossfights i just use my gems, mana pots, and soak up innervates that otherwise would never get used anyways. On really, really long fights, frost can start catching up, but it nearly never happens and i still always come out on top, by a rather large margin. Add in paladins and their godly regen abilities, and fire will beat frost harder.
Im almost lvl 57 and I am fully specc'd into frost for leveling (and loving it compared to ym old Arcane and Fire speccs). I pop my water ele when I want to kill things faster, fight multiple mobs, or frostnova from afar and start blizzarding mobs.
But at 60 do you need the utility a water elemental provides so much? And how does it scale like hunter/lock pets do?
Boss fights is a LOT of extra dps.
In the arena, set it on the healer, and now they have to heal themselves, shield, burn mana etc. In other words, not heal.
While not as awesome as a lock pet, its hella fun.
Also, I can outdamage most fire mages due to extreme mana effiency.
If you get an innervate as a mage, you are hella lucky.
40/0/21 Shatter-centric build. I've found Ice Block incredibly useful in the arena so far, Spell Power and Ice Shards means my Frostbolts will crit extra hard, Improved Counterspell and Arcane Power are invaluable, and after trying Arctic Winds and loving it, I think Prismatic Cloak is worth the investment. I think it'll have problems are getting people frozen, because I don't have Frostbite or the Water Elemental. I'm also not sure whether Slow or Ice Block are more valuable in the arena. The later has saved my life a lot, but Slow could really help, too.
Ice shards is 100% extra of your crit damage, so 100% of the 50% extra you get for a crit meaning 100% total extra damage. Spell power is 50% more of the crit damage so 25% more for a total of 75% extra damage. I'm not sure how they stack exactly though. Assuming they each take the original 50% bonus then its 225%, else its 250% if one takes effect after the other.
Also does anyone have dps for the water elemental and is it affected by your stats?
The water elemental is affected by your spellpower and other stats (it gains stamina too, afaik), and it normally hits for about 550-600 with good gear. the frostbolts are 2 (2.5?) seconds cast, so do the math. about 225-250 DPS, with good, good gear.
Like most mage things, its bugged, and we all know that unless it benefits mages (IE the 250% spellpower/iceshards) it wont be fixed.
Look at blink, they say its because of the terrain. Fair enough, but outlands IS EVEN WORSE. They had an oppurtunity to make sure we wont blink backwards etc, and yeah, they didnt. Blink is so bad in outlands I half hold my breath when I hit the button.
Shamans aren't broken at all from what I can tell. Anyway nothing has really changed. Classes that screwed us pre 2.0 still do and those we killed we still can. The only thing that really changed is that hunters are much more of a pain in the ass now.
I would play a mage if I didn't mind getting raped by physical damage and dealing with a fucking cast bar again.
They say a lot of people dont post on the forums, and I agree with that. I think we are just going to see a decline in mage population as people realise while there is nothing "OMGWRONGNEEDFIX" there isnt much that shines out either.
The old advantages of portal, aoe and food/water are
Portal - set hearth to shattrah, go to portal room. Or at 70 use flying mount or BOOTS OF PORTAL (no, Im not kidding, there are boots that give you a 2nd hearthstone).
AoE - NERF, NERF, NERF. Warlock AoE mostly uneffected.
Food/Water - better stuff is still bought, hell I will be buying it, cos 1 min drinking sucks.
Single target damage is still good, but not the "jaw-dropping" that kalgan seems to think we have. Affliction/destruction locks and hunters smash mages into tiny pieces come 70.
Basically, unless you are frost, the new spells arent great.
This isnt a QQ post or any of that shit. This is just a "we are ok, but nothing shines". Except for the tinman fight in kharz, you are probably better off with another warlock.
I guess if the mage population keeps going down, then blizzard may do something. I think the flaw comes in the way mages are designed - with each elemental tree instead of role based trees like other classes.
What I wouldnt give for a Annhilation, Devestation and Knowledge tree.
my only real beef is that there's nothing that really defines them as a class, like how warlocks have demons, priests have heals out the wazoo, hunters have pets, shamans have totems etc.
nothing that is really magey with a capital M
How do you decide when to "annihilate" and when to "devastate"?
You could fix half of my problems with mages by buffing mana shield and making Ice Block a base spell.
They are all role based. Pally would be heals/tank/damage. Warrior would be weapons/damage/tanking.
Mages need single target/aoe/utility(eg, water elemental, khadagers unlocking, better invis, iceblock)
But Im not a dev, and no one cares what I think so Ill just watch as the mage class dies.
Gimme a break.
i'd really like more magic manipulation spells for mages, perhaps that don't boost their combat worth but, like portal, create water etc. that let them do a greater range of otherwise menial tasks using magic
or, extending that to the class' combat ability, making the mage the "true" master of magic, and have more spells that affect enemy's mana, ability to cast spells or their spell effectiveness
As does most of that kind of stuff.
2. Exploding Sheep - 1 hour cooldown, instantly kills a single humanoid target in a glorious spectacle of kaboomining.
so the mages should be the ones keeping the other casters in line
Ergo Warlocks should only be keeping beings with soles in line?
If you want I can link the thread with all the maths, or a video of a lock doing sick DPS on nightbane (last boss of karazhan), where he devastates the mage on DPS; but I don't wanna let this thread turn into an emo-cryfest :x
it could be a debuff that causes an enemy to lose X% of a spell's mana cost as health
or
spells that an enemy casts cost 2X the mana
or
absorb some % of an enemy's spell to your own mana
i think basically they are not very creative with their spell and abilities, and the mage, which would normally be the most crafty and devious of the spellcasters, suffers for this because they basically end up with nothing but damage-dealing abilities
i'm not whining here, i love the mage and go back to it whenever i play the game (i've rolled about 15 mages and 2 priests and basically nothing else), i just wish it was a bit more flavoursome