(ed) ^^ Toothy was just saying that Toughness, dodge, disrupt, parry, and most notably armor don't factor in at all when you're taking the damage split from your guard buddy
You sure about Toughness? I can see the defense abilities like Dodge, DIsrupts and Parries not applying to guarded damage but Toughness is something that I thought applies to all damage no matter what?
You know what, I don't have any fucking idea what's true and what's not anymore. Someone get my 8 blorc to 10 and find me a couple fuckers order-size on Azazel to test this but thorough!
Yes but the idea that I take more damage by not being attacked than by being attacked is just flat out retarded
Ah, I see what you're saying. But your job is to soak damage from others. So while you're "taking damage by others being attacked" in numbers what you're doing in-game is putting yourself between the attacker and the victim, protecting your friend by taking the blow. This is the job of a tank. In a well-organized group you'll be getting constant heals, too, whereas your squishing friend your protecting won't be so that damage should not be a big deal. But at the very least you'll keep your DPSer/Healer alive long enough so the enemy can be killed.
If the sort-of-RP rationalization is that I'm standing between the attacker and my runt, why the hell does HIS armor take the mitigation and not mine (which is most assuredly higher)?
Something's fishy here and it's either the game or someone's explanations here. I intend to find out this weekend.
Ledneh on
0
DeadfallI don't think you realize just how rich he is.In fact, I should put on a monocle.Registered Userregular
edited September 2008
So not to change the subject, and please forgive me if this has already been addressed (I tried to read most of the WAR threads, but it moves so fast), on the subject of pre-orders from Amazon.
Some folks were worried in the last thread that Amazon is shipping them out in October. And it's true it says October, but mine still shipped yesterday. So the "estimated deliver" is incorrect, they are going out on time.
You know what, I don't have any fucking idea what's true and what's not anymore. Someone get my 8 blorc to 10 and find me a couple fuckers order-size on Azazel to test this but thorough!
Yes but the idea that I take more damage by not being attacked than by being attacked is just flat out retarded
Ah, I see what you're saying. But your job is to soak damage from others. So while you're "taking damage by others being attacked" in numbers what you're doing in-game is putting yourself between the attacker and the victim, protecting your friend by taking the blow. This is the job of a tank. In a well-organized group you'll be getting constant heals, too, whereas your squishing friend your protecting won't be so that damage should not be a big deal. But at the very least you'll keep your DPSer/Healer alive long enough so the enemy can be killed.
If the sort-of-RP rationalization is that I'm standing between the attacker and my runt, why the hell does HIS armor take the mitigation and not mine (which is most assuredly higher)?
Something's fishy here and it's either the game or someone's explanations here. I intend to find out this weekend.
Think of it like you having to overreach yourself in order to take some of the blow. Sure, you've got plenty of armor, but you're off-balance.
We were running a Blorc/Disciple combo in our scenarios last night, which is practically invincible without some serious debuffs, and once or twice Order countered it quite well with knockbacks. Just knock the tank out of range, ideally off a cliff or something, and Guard is useless until he makes his way back.
Man, when people were saying how tough it is to choose a career they were NOT kidding. I have a Marauder at r10, a Blorc at 5, and enjoying both of them immensely. But the more I read about Chosen, I itch to try them.
This is ridiculous, and haven't even started yet on any Order alts. What impresses me is that even between similar careers (Blorc/Chosen) the mechanics seem different enough that I want to try out another tank! Almost makes me feel bad splitting my time between different toons, but it's so much damn fun!
Damn I wish I got into Beta so that I could have had this sorted out before now.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
As a bonus, because of the way Guard works, you may actually kill the tank in the same amount of time anyway if you hit his guarded target. That's right. Guard is very broken.
Attack the tank. You do 25 damage to the tank.
Attack the healer. You do 40 damage to the healer and 40 damage to the tank.
Not broken. Working as intended, as it is this nearly same way in DAoC, it's just called Intercept there.
DAoC's Intercept just worked a little different, in that you did no damage to the Healer, the tank recieved 100% of the damage, with no mitagation at all.
So yeah, it's supposed to work that way. The purpose of the ability is to protect the Healer and keep the Healer from dying.
You're still doing less damage to the Healer. Take the Guard off, and the healer takes 75 damage according to your example. So you've removed 35 damage from each hit.
Wait, so tanks don't get another chance to mitigate incoming damage? Wouldn't it make more sense to split the raw incoming damage then have each party mitigate independently?
What a load of horse shit. Blorc ABANDONED, AGAIN
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but tanks have high Wounds (health pool), high Toughness (mitigates all incoming damage), have a shield (chance to block -- avoid -- all incoming damage) and a chance to avoid specific types with dodge, disrupt and parry.
All of which, except Block, are useless on Guard damage. It's all based on that healer's stats.
The problem here is that Tanks are supposed to, you know, tank. Instead, Guard just makes the healer an even tastier tank, relative to the tank.
This is why Guard actually becomes the most useful on another Sword and Board tank because you both mitigate the damage about the same, but you get to block the damage twice.
HUGS WON'T GIVE ME THAT HUGE BOX OF GOODIES NOW WILL IT?! :evil:
(Hey, I uninstalled my WAR beta before installing the retail version of WAR and I'm just wondering... when I log-in is there an option to put in my registration code? On the EA website if I go to "Apply to an existing Game Account" it asks for the code and THEN for another code for a timecard... and I'm fairly certain "Create a new Game Account" is not going to let me use my head start character...
FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
edited September 2008
I'd bet that they would only allow 1 per customer for the next few days just to prevent that sort of thing. Anyway, they probably had a pallet with 9,000 more copies in the backroom.
You know what, I don't have any fucking idea what's true and what's not anymore. Someone get my 8 blorc to 10 and find me a couple fuckers order-size on Azazel to test this but thorough!
Yes but the idea that I take more damage by not being attacked than by being attacked is just flat out retarded
Ah, I see what you're saying. But your job is to soak damage from others. So while you're "taking damage by others being attacked" in numbers what you're doing in-game is putting yourself between the attacker and the victim, protecting your friend by taking the blow. This is the job of a tank. In a well-organized group you'll be getting constant heals, too, whereas your squishing friend your protecting won't be so that damage should not be a big deal. But at the very least you'll keep your DPSer/Healer alive long enough so the enemy can be killed.
If the sort-of-RP rationalization is that I'm standing between the attacker and my runt, why the hell does HIS armor take the mitigation and not mine (which is most assuredly higher)?
Something's fishy here and it's either the game or someone's explanations here. I intend to find out this weekend.
Think of it like you having to overreach yourself in order to take some of the blow. Sure, you've got plenty of armor, but you're off-balance.
Or maybe this is a game and Guard works the way it does for balance reasons and not for pseudo RP reasons.
hazywater on
Hrin - Eve Online
0
FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
edited September 2008
Geez do I feel sorry for the CLEAR SKY people. Bought their game on Monday, cleared The Swamps, and now I'll be playing WAR steadily for the next couple of weeks at least. Timing is everything. No wonder FALLOUT 3 is waiting 'til October.
You know what, I don't have any fucking idea what's true and what's not anymore. Someone get my 8 blorc to 10 and find me a couple fuckers order-size on Azazel to test this but thorough!
Yes but the idea that I take more damage by not being attacked than by being attacked is just flat out retarded
Ah, I see what you're saying. But your job is to soak damage from others. So while you're "taking damage by others being attacked" in numbers what you're doing in-game is putting yourself between the attacker and the victim, protecting your friend by taking the blow. This is the job of a tank. In a well-organized group you'll be getting constant heals, too, whereas your squishing friend your protecting won't be so that damage should not be a big deal. But at the very least you'll keep your DPSer/Healer alive long enough so the enemy can be killed.
If the sort-of-RP rationalization is that I'm standing between the attacker and my runt, why the hell does HIS armor take the mitigation and not mine (which is most assuredly higher)?
Something's fishy here and it's either the game or someone's explanations here. I intend to find out this weekend.
Think of it like you having to overreach yourself in order to take some of the blow. Sure, you've got plenty of armor, but you're off-balance.
This. It's _always_ easier to protect yourself than it is to protect someone else.
My problem about the whole guard thing is this: it means that tanks can completely ignore most of their tanking stats. They're not having an effect anyway, so why not get armor with high Strength and some Wounds instead of with Toughness (which does nothing), Armor (which does nothing), and Wounds (which actually does something) and be a better tank for it? Just get a shield with high block and that's all the tanking gear they'll need for rvr.
And next you'll bring up the point of "so the enemy attacks the now-weakened tank". But he won't, because he's a tank. Even if he isn't, if you know what I mean.
I'd bet that they would only allow 1 per customer for the next few days just to prevent that sort of thing. Anyway, they probably had a pallet with 9,000 more copies in the backroom.
My roommate works at that store. There isn't a restriction like that and 9 was all they had, period. I could see them having a restriction like that at a Gamestop, but Best Buy only does that kind of stuff for huge sales.
Geez do I feel sorry for the CLEAR SKY people. Bought their game on Monday, cleared The Swamps, and now I'll be playing WAR steadily for the next couple of weeks at least. Timing is everything. No wonder FALLOUT 3 is waiting 'til October.
Why would the Clear Sky people care? You bought the game, right? It's not like they're relying on a monthly fee.
Just saw a cinematic for this game... a bunch of dudes storming a castle. The one with some evil looking lady freezing a dude and shattering him with her staff casually as she walked by. Fucking awesome. Im fully entrenched in WoW but this game has always interested me. Are the servers stable yet? Do they have trial accounts?
MistaCreepy on
PS3: MistaCreepy::Steam: MistaCreepy::360: Dead and I don't feel like paying to fix it.
My problem about the whole guard thing is this: it means that tanks can completely ignore most of their tanking stats. They're not having an effect anyway, so why not get armor with high Strength and some Wounds instead of with Toughness (which does nothing), Armor (which does nothing), and Wounds (which actually does something) and be a better tank for it? Just get a shield with high block and that's all the tanking gear they'll need for rvr.
And next you'll bring up the point of "so the enemy attacks the now-weakened tank". But he won't, because he's a tank. Even if he isn't, if you know what I mean.
You're right, I will!
The tank will usually be taking some damage, whether he's specced for tanking or not. Also, one of the tank's duties is to stand on choke points to make sure none of the opponent's melee classes can get through to all the squish. Even in an imperfect situation, placing yourself so that you are in range and your opponent is out of range is going to be an invaluable tactic.
So yeah, you're still going to get hit directly, and you're not going to want it to kill you.
Just saw a cinematic for this game... a bunch of dudes storming a castle. The one with some evil looking lady freezing a dude and shattering him with her staff casually as she walked by. Fucking awesome. Im fully entrenched in WoW but this game has always interested me. Are the servers stable yet? Do they have trial accounts?
I find the "stand on a choke point" argument to hold no water, since if you push forward you'll lag right through them in about four to six seconds anyway. Tried it successfully on the Nordenwatch bridge more times than I can count.
Sure, four to six is a longish time, but if a whole offensive is pushing (rather than just one person), the defense isn't gonna choke em all off.
it means that tanks can completely ignore most of their tanking stats.
Not really. As they are not Guarding someone 100% of the time. I imagine there will be many times when they are not Guarding. And during those times they'll want their tanks stats.
I find the "stand on a choke point" argument to hold no water, since if you push forward you'll lag right through them in about four to six seconds anyway.
You're missing the point. As a tank, if you place yourself between your ward and their assailants, you will buy them distance and time, and make yourself a much riper target.
Basically if you are not taking direct damage, you're doing something wrong.
I find the "stand on a choke point" argument to hold no water, since if you push forward you'll lag right through them in about four to six seconds anyway. Tried it successfully on the Nordenwatch bridge more times than I can count.
Sure, four to six is a longish time, but if a whole offensive is pushing (rather than just one person), the defense isn't gonna choke em all off.
You aren't impassable forever. They made it so going up against someone for x amount of seconds would allow you to go through someone. [So someone couldn't afk in a doorway]. You can reset this by moving. And if you run through tanks on the bridge chances are everyone behind the tanks will target you...so while you can it's not exactly a brilliant thing to do.
I'm sorry to jump in with a very generic question, but is this game essentially WoW? Is it gear dependent? Does skill = level? I just wanna know cause I need a good MMO, and a click fest, gear dependent MMO just isn't what I want.
K7 Avenger on
0
MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
I've been looking at builds on the wardb site while at work, and the tactics thing at the bottom confuses me. There are slots for career tactics, some of which are identical to the ones listed in the career trees. Do you need to "equip" them as tactics for them to work?
The whole career thing has a lot of you paying for things twice, so it wouldn't surprise me.
I find the "stand on a choke point" argument to hold no water, since if you push forward you'll lag right through them in about four to six seconds anyway. Tried it successfully on the Nordenwatch bridge more times than I can count.
Sure, four to six is a longish time, but if a whole offensive is pushing (rather than just one person), the defense isn't gonna choke em all off.
Once people learn they can shift their position, ever so slightly, it resets the push-through... as people improve in the game, they'll pick up on these things.
I've been looking at builds on the wardb site while at work, and the tactics thing at the bottom confuses me. There are slots for career tactics, some of which are identical to the ones listed in the career trees. Do you need to "equip" them as tactics for them to work?
The whole career thing has a lot of you paying for things twice, so it wouldn't surprise me.
You must equip a Tactic for it to work; so you can go up your Mastery tree, *earn* a Tactic, but you must equip it for it to have an effect.
I'm sorry to jump in with a very generic question, but is this game essentially WoW? Is it gear dependent? Does skill = level? I just wanna know cause I need a good MMO, and a click fest, gear dependent MMO just isn't what I want.
If you've ever played Guild Wars, the PvP is much the same way. Though gear plays a significant role, if you're good at the game, you will win often, even against superior equipment. It's definitely designed so that more skilled players will triumph in the end.
try running infront of someone who is trying to run down your flag runner and alternate between strafe and running backwards
i did this from when we picked up the flag in phoenix gate, and by the time we got to the bridge the guy had already capped and was running back again. madness.
I find the "stand on a choke point" argument to hold no water, since if you push forward you'll lag right through them in about four to six seconds anyway.
You're missing the point. As a tank, if you place yourself between your ward and their assailants, you will buy them distance and time, and make yourself a much riper target.
Basically if you are not taking direct damage, you're doing something wrong.
Granted, I did miss your point. Unfortunately I've developed the cynical theory that my ward would NOT run or use their bought-time effectively. This is because I am surrounded by blithering morons (which is also the reason I'm severely altitis-afflicted right now; DoKs that don't heal? Come the fuck on). :P
(on a side note, for me this is all pure theorycraft (theoryhammer?) so if it sounds like I'm being antagonistic and pissed off, I'm not trying to be)
(edit) I'm pleased as punch to hear that the anti-collision thing works that way though. If I can keep it up by scooting around, that certainly weakens my argument which I'm quite happy about
Posts
You sure about Toughness? I can see the defense abilities like Dodge, DIsrupts and Parries not applying to guarded damage but Toughness is something that I thought applies to all damage no matter what?
(edit)
If the sort-of-RP rationalization is that I'm standing between the attacker and my runt, why the hell does HIS armor take the mitigation and not mine (which is most assuredly higher)?
Something's fishy here and it's either the game or someone's explanations here. I intend to find out this weekend.
Some folks were worried in the last thread that Amazon is shipping them out in October. And it's true it says October, but mine still shipped yesterday. So the "estimated deliver" is incorrect, they are going out on time.
xbl - HowYouGetAnts
steam - WeAreAllGeth
Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
*hug*
Think of it like you having to overreach yourself in order to take some of the blow. Sure, you've got plenty of armor, but you're off-balance.
xbl - HowYouGetAnts
steam - WeAreAllGeth
When they work. Recently my pistol hasn't been firing when I tell it to, and combat without the crack of gunfire just hasn't been as satisfying.
Edit: Ris, all tiers bump you up to x8.
This is ridiculous, and haven't even started yet on any Order alts. What impresses me is that even between similar careers (Blorc/Chosen) the mechanics seem different enough that I want to try out another tank! Almost makes me feel bad splitting my time between different toons, but it's so much damn fun!
Damn I wish I got into Beta so that I could have had this sorted out before now.
Not broken. Working as intended, as it is this nearly same way in DAoC, it's just called Intercept there.
DAoC's Intercept just worked a little different, in that you did no damage to the Healer, the tank recieved 100% of the damage, with no mitagation at all.
So yeah, it's supposed to work that way. The purpose of the ability is to protect the Healer and keep the Healer from dying.
You're still doing less damage to the Healer. Take the Guard off, and the healer takes 75 damage according to your example. So you've removed 35 damage from each hit.
All of which, except Block, are useless on Guard damage. It's all based on that healer's stats.
The problem here is that Tanks are supposed to, you know, tank. Instead, Guard just makes the healer an even tastier tank, relative to the tank.
This is why Guard actually becomes the most useful on another Sword and Board tank because you both mitigate the damage about the same, but you get to block the damage twice.
Switch: US 1651-2551-4335 JP 6310-4664-2624
MH3U Monster Cheat Sheet / MH3U Veggie Elder Ticket Guide
HUGS WON'T GIVE ME THAT HUGE BOX OF GOODIES NOW WILL IT?! :evil:
(Hey, I uninstalled my WAR beta before installing the retail version of WAR and I'm just wondering... when I log-in is there an option to put in my registration code? On the EA website if I go to "Apply to an existing Game Account" it asks for the code and THEN for another code for a timecard... and I'm fairly certain "Create a new Game Account" is not going to let me use my head start character...
Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
All
Or maybe this is a game and Guard works the way it does for balance reasons and not for pseudo RP reasons.
I like the idea of being a juggernaut who knocks people around like tenpins.
This. It's _always_ easier to protect yourself than it is to protect someone else.
I think every class might get knockdowns. I know Shamans get an AoE knockback, so I assume other healer classes might.
And next you'll bring up the point of "so the enemy attacks the now-weakened tank". But he won't, because he's a tank. Even if he isn't, if you know what I mean.
many classes have knockbacks
My roommate works at that store. There isn't a restriction like that and 9 was all they had, period. I could see them having a restriction like that at a Gamestop, but Best Buy only does that kind of stuff for huge sales.
Why would the Clear Sky people care? You bought the game, right? It's not like they're relying on a monthly fee.
You're right, I will!
The tank will usually be taking some damage, whether he's specced for tanking or not. Also, one of the tank's duties is to stand on choke points to make sure none of the opponent's melee classes can get through to all the squish. Even in an imperfect situation, placing yourself so that you are in range and your opponent is out of range is going to be an invaluable tactic.
So yeah, you're still going to get hit directly, and you're not going to want it to kill you.
Servers have been stable since Sunday.
Trial accounts aren't available yet, I believe.
Sure, four to six is a longish time, but if a whole offensive is pushing (rather than just one person), the defense isn't gonna choke em all off.
Not really. As they are not Guarding someone 100% of the time. I imagine there will be many times when they are not Guarding. And during those times they'll want their tanks stats.
You're missing the point. As a tank, if you place yourself between your ward and their assailants, you will buy them distance and time, and make yourself a much riper target.
Basically if you are not taking direct damage, you're doing something wrong.
You aren't impassable forever. They made it so going up against someone for x amount of seconds would allow you to go through someone. [So someone couldn't afk in a doorway]. You can reset this by moving. And if you run through tanks on the bridge chances are everyone behind the tanks will target you...so while you can it's not exactly a brilliant thing to do.
The whole career thing has a lot of you paying for things twice, so it wouldn't surprise me.
Once people learn they can shift their position, ever so slightly, it resets the push-through... as people improve in the game, they'll pick up on these things.
You must equip a Tactic for it to work; so you can go up your Mastery tree, *earn* a Tactic, but you must equip it for it to have an effect.
If you've ever played Guild Wars, the PvP is much the same way. Though gear plays a significant role, if you're good at the game, you will win often, even against superior equipment. It's definitely designed so that more skilled players will triumph in the end.
i did this from when we picked up the flag in phoenix gate, and by the time we got to the bridge the guy had already capped and was running back again. madness.
Granted, I did miss your point. Unfortunately I've developed the cynical theory that my ward would NOT run or use their bought-time effectively. This is because I am surrounded by blithering morons (which is also the reason I'm severely altitis-afflicted right now; DoKs that don't heal? Come the fuck on). :P
(on a side note, for me this is all pure theorycraft (theoryhammer?) so if it sounds like I'm being antagonistic and pissed off, I'm not trying to be)
(edit) I'm pleased as punch to hear that the anti-collision thing works that way though. If I can keep it up by scooting around, that certainly weakens my argument which I'm quite happy about