They certainly would make it worse if implemented poorly. But in this case they are implemented flawlessly. Making the original core stale and boring when placed next to the freshly baked, improved FPS gameplay.
You're missing my point. I'm not saying they make it worse. I'm saying they make it different, and therefore not objectively better.
The basic core is the same: shoot people with guns while running and jumping around. What makes UT2K4 better is that the learning curve and the choices all branch out and expand farther than in Q3.
We've been shooting rockets, jumping around, and sniping people for a long time. Some new jazz sounds better and introduces innovative and beautiful music. It doesn't dilute or trivialize the old.
These things are, unfortunately, zero-sum. If you add new tactics, you take focus away from the old tactics. If the old tactics are not, in themselves, sufficient to remain compelling, then the new tactics address a deficiency, and can be described as an improvement. If, however, the old game was sufficient to remain compelling, then new tactics aren't addressing a deficiency, they're simply providing an alternative experience. It may be that the old game was still compelling for some, but not for others - which is fine, different people will want different levels of depth.
I'm not arguing Q3 is better than UT2K4 or vice-versa, I'm arguing that having a larger weapon-set and variety of manouevers does not in itself imply a better game. Deeper is not necessarily better, especially in the realm of twitch games.
You can't possibly say that UT has all the depth of Q3, and then some. Does UT have strafe jumping, or anything with similar depth? It doesn't. The argument begins and ends with that. If I bring up CPMA (or QuakeWorld) then that's just added failure on your part, so I wont.
Oh you can't read?. I said UT2K4 has strafe jumping and more tricks that Q3 doesn't have.
I'm sorry if maybe you have a learning disability. Hope i don't offend you special needs guy.
You can't possibly say that UT has all the depth of Q3, and then some. Does UT have strafe jumping, or anything with similar depth? It doesn't. The argument begins and ends with that. If I bring up CPMA (or QuakeWorld) then that's just added failure on your part, so I wont.
Oh you can't read?. I said UT2K4 has strafe jumping and more tricks that Q3 doesn't have.
I'm sorry if maybe you have a learning disability. Hope i don't offend you special needs guy.
UT does not have strafe jumping. It does not have it.
Contrary to popular opinion emo is not what pop culture makes it to be!
But that's a discussion for another thread.
Anyway, has God Hand been mentioned as the perfect 3D beat-em-up yet? Because it really is.
Also, I just bought Ico for $80.
Wow. I found my copy in a bargain bin for £7. :P
Well, it was still totally worth it anyway. God is it gorgeous.
Now I just need to hack my PS2 to play NTSC games and I can finally get that American version of Shadow of the Colossus and metal gear anthology that the store has too. Things I do for my games...
Contrary to popular opinion emo is not what pop culture makes it to be!
But that's a discussion for another thread.
Anyway, has God Hand been mentioned as the perfect 3D beat-em-up yet? Because it really is.
Also, I just bought Ico for $80.
Wow. I found my copy in a bargain bin for £7. :P
Well, it was still totally worth it anyway. God is it gorgeous.
Now I just need to hack my PS2 to play NTSC games and I can finally get that American version of Shadow of the Colossus and metal gear anthology that the store has too. Things I do for my games...
I bought Ico for £40 back before it got a release here and halved in value.
Fun times.
I'm really curious to know what differences there are in MOVEMENT between Quake and UT. I haven't played any quakes, and haven't really played UT since the original '99.
No. Not by a long shot. I'm a fan and even I know its not the best. They screwed up on weapon placement, spawn zones and other things that should of died and not come back from halo 2.
So, no. You fail.
GRADE: F-
These things can be tailored to suit your specific requirements can they not? You could totally make the argument that that makes it indeed the most perfect game, because you can fix whatever you see to be wrong with it, allowing for the subjectivity of 'perfect' to be taken into account. I mean true, it does a number of things wrong which stops it being perfect, however, compared to pretty much all modern fps it does so many things right that this doesn't matter. I don't see anybody arguing that say chequers is a more perfect game then chess, even if it theoretically does less things wrong.
No. Not by a long shot. I'm a fan and even I know its not the best. They screwed up on weapon placement, spawn zones and other things that should of died and not come back from halo 2.
So, no. You fail.
GRADE: F-
These things can be tailored to suit your specific requirements can they not? You could totally make the argument that that makes it indeed the most perfect game, because you can fix whatever you see to be wrong with it, allowing for the subjectivity of 'perfect' to be taken into account. I mean true, it does a number of things wrong which stops it being perfect, however, compared to pretty much all modern fps it does so many things right that this doesn't matter. I don't see anybody arguing that say chequers is a more perfect game then chess, even if it theoretically does less things wrong.
How does chequers does less things wrong than chess?
Well Chess has seen a number of changes that have replaced the old rules in its history, them becoming mere footnotes in the games past. This suggests that chess was improved upon, and may still me open to more improvment. This is not nearly so true in chequers (actually it probably is, something like tic tac toe would probably be a better comparison)?
I'm really curious to know what differences there are in MOVEMENT between Quake and UT. I haven't played any quakes, and haven't really played UT since the original '99.
Judging by my avatar, this will not come as a surprise to anyone:
The Secret of Monkey Island
This was the only game that I consider a perfect foray into the adventure genre.
And I immediately started thinking about that genre because most other genres have built-in flaws or built-in trade-offs. Many games are 9/10 in other genres but cannot actually achieve perfection. So I chose a genre with tightly constrained rules and OH SURPRISE SURPRISE it stars the guy featured in my avatar.
Firstly, it's a gorgeous game that still stands the test of time. I played it in its original 16 colors and am still astounded by what LucasArts accomplished in bringing Melee and Monkey island to life.
The music is amazing as well. Again, first played this thing on a MSDOS Packard Bell, and even the beeping and booping sounded awesome.
The characters are memorable and endearing. It's funny as hell for most people, and appropriately amusing for others.
And, most importantly, the game does not commit Adventure Genre Suicide. Just about every single puzzle has a logical solution. That's actually why I didn't choose Curse of Monkey Island. I took the OP at his word and decided that a "perfect" game couldn't possibly feature the confusing-as-hell act starring Little Guybrush in the amusement park.
I've played a lot of games that I would say deserve a 10/10, or did amazing things without making major blunders along the way. However, my exact quote following a playthrough of Portal was "It may not be the best game ever made, but it is perfect."
Controls, design, story, humor, innovation blah blah blah. See also: every review of Portal.
Well Chess has seen a number of changes that have replaced the old rules in its history, them becoming mere footnotes in the games past. This suggests that chess was improved upon, and may still me open to more improvment. This is not nearly so true in chequers (actually it probably is, something like tic tac toe would probably be a better comparison)?
tic tac toe is a terrible game! If both people know what they're doing, the game will always end in a tie. And the person who moves 2nd can only hope for a tie at best. I haven't tried Halo 3, but I loved Halo 1 and did not like the changes they made in Halo 2. And after playing CoD4, I could care less to try Halo 3, because I don't see how it could top CoD4.
And, most importantly, the game does not commit Adventure Genre Suicide. Just about every single puzzle has a logical solution. That's actually why I didn't choose Curse of Monkey Island. I took the OP at his word and decided that a "perfect" game couldn't possibly feature the confusing-as-hell act starring Little Guybrush in the amusement park.
Oh my god, I've never read this. This is amazing. It perfectly sums up everything I love and hate about the adventure game genre.
edit:: Though that reminds me - I think I might nominate Loom as a perfect game as well, I don't remember any of the puzzles being too insanely weird or hard. It had a very weird and interesting style as well.
It's those thingies when you're in the middle of a cutscene then the game's like "PRESS A" and if you don't do it right quick then bad shit happens to you.
Actually, even though those kind of things annoyed me in God of War and the Force Unleashed demo, I really didn't mind them in RE4. I think it was partly because RE4 integrated them into cutscenes, and made it much more cinematic - but also because it was never used on enemies that you THOUGHT you could fight normally. They kept them separate and distinct, versus the mashups from the others.
at least one of the Advance Wars games has to go on the list. I would nominate the first, if only because the others seemed too preoccupied with overpowered special moves and needless complications. AW1 had the formula so, so right.
I'd go with FF VI, VII, and Starcraft. I call them perfect because I played through them entirely, more than once, and still love them. I have not met a game yet that didn't have a few flaws, though. Also might add Age of Empires 2 (practically no flaws) and TF2, if we're including FPS. Seriously, TF2 adds some strategy and sweet graphics into a genre that suffers from repetitiveness and a poor community. The achievements increase an already powerful replayability.
Velox on
0
KupotheAvengerDestroyer of Cakeand other deserts.Registered Userregular
I'd go with FF VI, VII, and Starcraft. I call them perfect because I played through them entirely, more than once, and still love them. I have not met a game yet that didn't have a few flaws, though. Also might add Age of Empires 2 (practically no flaws) and TF2, if we're including FPS. Seriously, TF2 adds some strategy and sweet graphics into a genre that suffers from repetitiveness and a poor community. The achievements increase an already powerful replayability.
Posts
These things are, unfortunately, zero-sum. If you add new tactics, you take focus away from the old tactics. If the old tactics are not, in themselves, sufficient to remain compelling, then the new tactics address a deficiency, and can be described as an improvement. If, however, the old game was sufficient to remain compelling, then new tactics aren't addressing a deficiency, they're simply providing an alternative experience. It may be that the old game was still compelling for some, but not for others - which is fine, different people will want different levels of depth.
I'm not arguing Q3 is better than UT2K4 or vice-versa, I'm arguing that having a larger weapon-set and variety of manouevers does not in itself imply a better game. Deeper is not necessarily better, especially in the realm of twitch games.
Dont get me wrong, UT04 is great, but when you put in the vehicles, the secondary fires, the multitude of gametypes etc it is gilding the lily.
Quake 3 is like first person shooting perfection.
Oh you can't read?. I said UT2K4 has strafe jumping and more tricks that Q3 doesn't have.
I'm sorry if maybe you have a learning disability. Hope i don't offend you special needs guy.
UT does not have strafe jumping. It does not have it.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Wow. I found my copy in a bargain bin for £7. :P
Mario Kart (64 or DS, I prefer DS)
Age of Empires II (still play this all the time)
RED ALERT II (fuck Yuri's Revenge expansion pack)
Don't worry, it has.
But it's just a game about punching people.
Well, it was still totally worth it anyway. God is it gorgeous.
Now I just need to hack my PS2 to play NTSC games and I can finally get that American version of Shadow of the Colossus and metal gear anthology that the store has too. Things I do for my games...
The beauty, of God Hand, is that it's just a game about punching people.
Fun times.
Then again, game prices in Australia are always horribly unreasonable.
Not to mention that Ico is incredibly rare here. I managed to get it at an indie game store which I just happened to stumble across.
It's really stunning though. I can't believe that the PS2 could handle graphics like this.
I loved Okami. (still haven't finished it though)
It's got nothing on this.
These things can be tailored to suit your specific requirements can they not? You could totally make the argument that that makes it indeed the most perfect game, because you can fix whatever you see to be wrong with it, allowing for the subjectivity of 'perfect' to be taken into account. I mean true, it does a number of things wrong which stops it being perfect, however, compared to pretty much all modern fps it does so many things right that this doesn't matter. I don't see anybody arguing that say chequers is a more perfect game then chess, even if it theoretically does less things wrong.
Ico is pretty, but what they did with SOTC is just incredible. It's a freak of nature that they managed to pull that off on the ancient PS2.
How does chequers does less things wrong than chess?
It's a complicated subject.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
The Secret of Monkey Island
This was the only game that I consider a perfect foray into the adventure genre.
And I immediately started thinking about that genre because most other genres have built-in flaws or built-in trade-offs. Many games are 9/10 in other genres but cannot actually achieve perfection. So I chose a genre with tightly constrained rules and OH SURPRISE SURPRISE it stars the guy featured in my avatar.
Firstly, it's a gorgeous game that still stands the test of time. I played it in its original 16 colors and am still astounded by what LucasArts accomplished in bringing Melee and Monkey island to life.
The music is amazing as well. Again, first played this thing on a MSDOS Packard Bell, and even the beeping and booping sounded awesome.
The characters are memorable and endearing. It's funny as hell for most people, and appropriately amusing for others.
And, most importantly, the game does not commit Adventure Genre Suicide. Just about every single puzzle has a logical solution. That's actually why I didn't choose Curse of Monkey Island. I took the OP at his word and decided that a "perfect" game couldn't possibly feature the confusing-as-hell act starring Little Guybrush in the amusement park.
Controls, design, story, humor, innovation blah blah blah. See also: every review of Portal.
tic tac toe is a terrible game! If both people know what they're doing, the game will always end in a tie. And the person who moves 2nd can only hope for a tie at best. I haven't tried Halo 3, but I loved Halo 1 and did not like the changes they made in Halo 2. And after playing CoD4, I could care less to try Halo 3, because I don't see how it could top CoD4.
Oh my god, I've never read this. This is amazing. It perfectly sums up everything I love and hate about the adventure game genre.
edit:: Though that reminds me - I think I might nominate Loom as a perfect game as well, I don't remember any of the puzzles being too insanely weird or hard. It had a very weird and interesting style as well.
I want to dislike it (them?) like most everyone seems to, but I really have no idea what it stands for.
It's those thingies when you're in the middle of a cutscene then the game's like "PRESS A" and if you don't do it right quick then bad shit happens to you.
Quick Time Event. (Press triangle to dodge the block that's falling on you!) God of War, Resident Evil 4, Shenmue, Force Unleashed etc.
Edit: beat'd!
I would have said Okami for perfect game, but the QTEs (haha) really annoyed me to no end.
http://www.nwlwrestling.com/
Too bad you can't even spell its name correctly.
I second the TF2 nomination.
Battlenet: Judgement#1243
psn: KupoZero
Seriously tho, RE4 knife fight was awesome.
would have been cooler if you could watch it instead of watching for the buttons to come up.