The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.

The Next Terrorist Target: The House Of Mouse?

12467

Posts

  • bongibongi regular
    edited September 2008
    Pony wrote: »
    Meissnerd wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    difference in jewish religious thought is generally speaking a factor of what rabbis you hold in esteemed authority and shit

    judaism is all about what scholarly teachings and schools of thought and interpretations you choose to adhere to. it's not as black and white as are you reform or orthodox, it's complicated and nuanced and an issue of what rabbinical authority and teachings, if any, you consider legitimate.

    I could replace the word rabbi with christian denomination, and it would explain the same thing for christianity

    the primary difference between the two is that different jewish schools of thought usually actually link back to real rabbis who have done real study

    instead of a charming man in a nice suit with great hair smacking people in the forehead saying he has magic powers

    i mean that sort of thing does happen in judaism, weirdo personality cults and claims of mystical powers happen too but are waaaaaaaaaay less common per capita, because most of the time to get any sort of religious following in judaism you can't just claim you have been given a vision from god, you have to show off credentials and say "i spent this much time in this school and received education from this group of rabbis" etc.

    christianity has it's own history of study and interpretation too

    bongi on
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    bongi wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Meissnerd wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    difference in jewish religious thought is generally speaking a factor of what rabbis you hold in esteemed authority and shit

    judaism is all about what scholarly teachings and schools of thought and interpretations you choose to adhere to. it's not as black and white as are you reform or orthodox, it's complicated and nuanced and an issue of what rabbinical authority and teachings, if any, you consider legitimate.

    I could replace the word rabbi with christian denomination, and it would explain the same thing for christianity

    the primary difference between the two is that different jewish schools of thought usually actually link back to real rabbis who have done real study

    instead of a charming man in a nice suit with great hair smacking people in the forehead saying he has magic powers

    i mean that sort of thing does happen in judaism, weirdo personality cults and claims of mystical powers happen too but are waaaaaaaaaay less common per capita, because most of the time to get any sort of religious following in judaism you can't just claim you have been given a vision from god, you have to show off credentials and say "i spent this much time in this school and received education from this group of rabbis" etc.

    christianity has it's own history of study and interpretation too

    sure it does

    please remind the americans of this they seem to have largely forgotten it in favor of cults of personality and mystical revelation

    man there was a time when monks were the really cool mathematicians and scientists and shit

    bayes and occam and stuff

    Pony on
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Pony wrote: »
    Meissnerd wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    difference in jewish religious thought is generally speaking a factor of what rabbis you hold in esteemed authority and shit

    judaism is all about what scholarly teachings and schools of thought and interpretations you choose to adhere to. it's not as black and white as are you reform or orthodox, it's complicated and nuanced and an issue of what rabbinical authority and teachings, if any, you consider legitimate.

    I could replace the word rabbi with christian denomination, and it would explain the same thing for christianity

    the primary difference between the two is that different jewish schools of thought usually actually link back to real rabbis who have done real study

    instead of a charming man in a nice suit with great hair smacking people in the forehead saying he has magic powers

    i mean that sort of thing does happen in judaism, weirdo personality cults and claims of mystical powers happen too but are waaaaaaaaaay less common per capita, because most of the time to get any sort of religious following in judaism you can't just claim you have been given a vision from god, you have to show off credentials and say "i spent this much time in this school and received education from this group of rabbis" etc.

    That happens in plenty of other religions. Dont be so reductionist.

    All religions have their fair share of nutjobs. you could argue anyone who believes in a higher power is out of their mind but that is a whole other thing for a whole other day.

    Everyone likes to think the other religion is the crazy one with the loons and the charlatans, I as an atheist see them all with equal contempt.

    Edit: speaking about the extremists here, not every one in that faith. perhaps that wasnt clear.

    ie there is nothing to separate islamic fundamentalists from christian ones. they are all equally hopeless.

    The_Scarab on
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Meissnerd wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Meissnerd wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Meissnerd wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    The problem isn't religion. The problem is that certain religions villify the act of questioning authority.

    Or the wrong authority!

    Like that in bit in Jesus Camp where the kids pray for cardboard cut out George Bush.

    But that's exactly it.

    Christianity stresses that authority knows what is best for you, and you should follow unquestioningly.



    I could give you differences in biblical interpretations between Jews and Christians which would make this all clear, but I don't want to bore anyone.



    The point is, a bunch of good Christian kids are told to worship a cardboard cut out, they just ask "for how long"?

    There are a lot of factors that can change it, chiefly being interpretation. And like you I don't want to bore anyone :lol:

    Interpretation from whom?

    Worshippers, different sects (Lutherans, Catholics etc.) Regarding who has authority. I'm really not familiar with Jewish beliefs but I know there are a lot of differences between Christian denominations. It also doesn't help when people take their political beliefs and they try to meld them into their interpretation of what the bible says.

    So every individual Christian makes their own interpretation?

    Evander on
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    sarukun wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    "a willingness to consider the possibility that some of the teachings may be specific to a particular cultural and historic context"

    Man, every religion needs a clause in their book, like a disclaimer at the front that says basically this.

    I'll bet most of them do they are just ignored.

    I doubt it. It's not like an easter egg for the people who can actually do close reading.

    I know for a fact the catholic catechism has clauses where doing certain things is not considered a sin if you strongly believe the church is wrong on whatever the issue is and you are being true to your own conscience .

    Butters on
    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Everyone likes to think the other religion is the crazy one with the loons and the charlatans, I as an atheist see them all with equal contempt.

    So you're a bigger dick than everybody else combined.


    Nice going.

    sarukun on
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Pony wrote: »
    difference in jewish religious thought is generally speaking a factor of what rabbis you hold in esteemed authority and shit

    judaism is all about what scholarly teachings and schools of thought and interpretations you choose to adhere to. it's not as black and white as are you reform or orthodox, it's complicated and nuanced and an issue of what rabbinical authority and teachings, if any, you consider legitimate.

    Not even.

    The REAL difference in Judaism is that you don't need a Rabbi to agree with something for it to be "right".

    Anyone can go and study and make their own interpretations.

    Evander on
  • WeaverWeaver Breakfast Witch Hashus BrowniusRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Evander what is the Jewish belief on what happens when you die if you don't make it to heaven?

    Weaver on
  • bongibongi regular
    edited September 2008
    Pony wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Meissnerd wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    difference in jewish religious thought is generally speaking a factor of what rabbis you hold in esteemed authority and shit

    judaism is all about what scholarly teachings and schools of thought and interpretations you choose to adhere to. it's not as black and white as are you reform or orthodox, it's complicated and nuanced and an issue of what rabbinical authority and teachings, if any, you consider legitimate.

    I could replace the word rabbi with christian denomination, and it would explain the same thing for christianity

    the primary difference between the two is that different jewish schools of thought usually actually link back to real rabbis who have done real study

    instead of a charming man in a nice suit with great hair smacking people in the forehead saying he has magic powers

    i mean that sort of thing does happen in judaism, weirdo personality cults and claims of mystical powers happen too but are waaaaaaaaaay less common per capita, because most of the time to get any sort of religious following in judaism you can't just claim you have been given a vision from god, you have to show off credentials and say "i spent this much time in this school and received education from this group of rabbis" etc.

    christianity has it's own history of study and interpretation too

    sure it does

    please remind the americans of this they seem to have largely forgotten it in favor of cults of personality and mystical revelation

    man there was a time when monks were the really cool mathematicians and scientists and shit

    bayes and occam and stuff

    plus you know

    kabbalah.jpg

    it's not like judaism is free from pop-religion

    bongi on
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    sarukun wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Everyone likes to think the other religion is the crazy one with the loons and the charlatans, I as an atheist see them all with equal contempt.

    So you're a bigger dick than everybody else combined.


    Nice going.

    Read my edit. You were too quick to reply there, or perhaps I was wrong in clicking post before I had my thoughts full realized.

    The_Scarab on
  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Butters wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    "a willingness to consider the possibility that some of the teachings may be specific to a particular cultural and historic context"

    Man, every religion needs a clause in their book, like a disclaimer at the front that says basically this.

    I'll bet most of them do they are just ignored.

    I doubt it. It's not like an easter egg for the people who can actually do close reading.

    I know for a fact the catholic catechism has clause where doing certain things is not considered a sin if you strongly believe the church is wrong on whatever the issue is and you are being true to your own conscience .

    I don't think I got that clause in my catechism.



    I wish there had been an "advanced" catechism class. I could have finished that nonsense in a month if they just gave me the material. I was the only one there trying to read the book, everybody else was too busy being a teenager.

    sarukun on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Mickey is a fucking imperialist pig dog mouse...thing
    I guess
    Death to the infidel

    Me Too! on
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Everyone likes to think the other religion is the crazy one with the loons and the charlatans, I as an atheist see them all with equal contempt.


    So, you're exactly the same?

    I mean, the belief that there is no God is still a leap of faith, just the same.



    Not to mention that Judaism doesn't require a belief in God, and barely deals with an afterlife at all, meaning that you are judging things without even knowing what they are.

    Evander on
  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Everyone likes to think the other religion is the crazy one with the loons and the charlatans, I as an atheist see them all with equal contempt.

    So you're a bigger dick than everybody else combined.


    Nice going.

    Read my edit. You were too quick to reply there, or perhaps I was wrong in clicking post before I had my thoughts full realized.

    Probably that last one.


    On account of you did the same thing to me with the spelling thing.

    sarukun on
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Weaver wrote: »
    Evander what is the Jewish belief on what happens when you die if you don't make it to heaven?

    There is no heaven in Judaism.

    edit: that is to say, the heaven in he Bible is essentially just God's office, not a place that people go when they die. That's a bunch of Christian meshuggas

    Evander on
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Meissnerd wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    difference in jewish religious thought is generally speaking a factor of what rabbis you hold in esteemed authority and shit

    judaism is all about what scholarly teachings and schools of thought and interpretations you choose to adhere to. it's not as black and white as are you reform or orthodox, it's complicated and nuanced and an issue of what rabbinical authority and teachings, if any, you consider legitimate.

    I could replace the word rabbi with christian denomination, and it would explain the same thing for christianity

    the primary difference between the two is that different jewish schools of thought usually actually link back to real rabbis who have done real study

    instead of a charming man in a nice suit with great hair smacking people in the forehead saying he has magic powers

    i mean that sort of thing does happen in judaism, weirdo personality cults and claims of mystical powers happen too but are waaaaaaaaaay less common per capita, because most of the time to get any sort of religious following in judaism you can't just claim you have been given a vision from god, you have to show off credentials and say "i spent this much time in this school and received education from this group of rabbis" etc.

    That happens in plenty of other religions. Dont be so reductionist.

    All religions have their fair share of nutjobs. you could argue anyone who believes in a higher power is out of their mind but that is a whole other thing for a whole other day.

    Everyone likes to think the other religion is the crazy one with the loons and the charlatans, I as an atheist see them all with equal contempt.

    Edit: speaking about the extremists here, not every one in that faith. perhaps that wasnt clear.

    ie there is nothing to separate islamic fundamentalists from christian ones. they are all equally hopeless.

    i speak more in terms of signal to noise

    all religions have their crazy nutjob sides. all. arguably, as you just said, they are all crazy nutjob sides from a certain perspective.

    not all religions believe in a "higher power", but nonetheless your basic point is correct that everybody wants to say the others are more crazy than they are

    but since they all have whacky beliefs lets talk more in terms of real actions and consequences

    in those terms i find the crazy sides of say, christianity and islam far more threatening that the lunatic fringe of jainism or shinto

    not only are those religions larger and more influential, their crazy people are also far more violent and dangerous.

    Pony on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Oh hey Pony
    Sup dogg

    Me Too! on
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    sarukun wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Everyone likes to think the other religion is the crazy one with the loons and the charlatans, I as an atheist see them all with equal contempt.

    So you're a bigger dick than everybody else combined.


    Nice going.

    Read my edit. You were too quick to reply there, or perhaps I was wrong in clicking post before I had my thoughts full realized.

    Probably that last one.


    On account of you did the same thing to me with the spelling thing.

    True. But I wasn't aggressive in my response, just making a joke. In fact, 'haha I quoted so you cant edit out your spelling mistake' is a common practice in all forums here.

    The_Scarab on
  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Evander wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Everyone likes to think the other religion is the crazy one with the loons and the charlatans, I as an atheist see them all with equal contempt.


    So, you're exactly the same?

    I mean, the belief that there is no God is still a leap of faith, just the same.



    Not to mention that Judaism doesn't require a belief in God, and barely deals with an afterlife at all, meaning that you are judging things without even knowing what they are.

    See, it ain't just me seein' this shit.


    Maybe you were trying to be funny and fell short, Scarab, I don't know.


    You're the kind of aetheist that australian dude from page one took to task on his hilarious "religion is dumb" show.

    sarukun on
  • MysstMysst King Monkey of Hedonism IslandRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I like bacon too much to be jewish, but i'd pork one.
    see what I did there don't do that kids it was a terrible attempt at humor

    Mysst on
    ikbUJdU.jpg
  • WeaverWeaver Breakfast Witch Hashus BrowniusRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Evander wrote: »
    Weaver wrote: »
    Evander what is the Jewish belief on what happens when you die if you don't make it to heaven?

    There is no heaven in Judaism.

    edit: that is to say, the heaven in he Bible is essentially just God's office, not a place that people go when they die. That's a bunch of Christian meshuggas

    Well the whole thing then, what happens on death

    Weaver on
  • BibbleBibble __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    WIGGIN AND PONY REUNITE

    Three_women_reunite.jpg

    Bibble on
    2jezcsmjpg.gif
  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Everyone likes to think the other religion is the crazy one with the loons and the charlatans, I as an atheist see them all with equal contempt.

    So you're a bigger dick than everybody else combined.


    Nice going.

    Read my edit. You were too quick to reply there, or perhaps I was wrong in clicking post before I had my thoughts full realized.

    Probably that last one.


    On account of you did the same thing to me with the spelling thing.

    True. But I wasn't aggressive in my response, just making a joke. In fact, 'haha I quoted so you cant edit out your spelling mistake' is a common practice in all forums here.

    Well, I'm not smearing your good name and damning you to hell


    but looking on a religion "with contempt" when you obviously don't know quite exactly what you're talking about sort of makes you a dick any way you slice it, man.

    sarukun on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Seriously though don't be a douchebag atheist
    Ain't nobody likes a douchebag

    Me Too! on
  • BibbleBibble __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    religion is like the fourms

    when a leader does something someone doesn't like everyone whines and makes a splinter forum

    Bibble on
    2jezcsmjpg.gif
  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Well, makes you look like a dick, anyway.


    Maybe you're a cool guy, I don't know.

    sarukun on
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Weaver wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Weaver wrote: »
    Evander what is the Jewish belief on what happens when you die if you don't make it to heaven?

    There is no heaven in Judaism.

    edit: that is to say, the heaven in he Bible is essentially just God's office, not a place that people go when they die. That's a bunch of Christian meshuggas

    Well the whole thing then, what happens on death

    There's an air of reincarnation to some of Jewish mysticism, but mostly, it is believed that some day the messiah will come and everyone who is worthy will be resurrected, and everyone will live in Israel.



    Yeah, it's sill, and it is ALWAYS emphasized that this is NOT supposed t be a focal poin of your life. Life is for living.



    Also, it is EASIER for a non-Jew to be deemed worthy than it is for a Jew. Jews must follow all 613 laws of the Torah. Non-Jews only have to follow the seven Noahide laws given to Noah after the flood.



    Judaism doesn't view being Jewish as being "right", it is viewed as being a necessary burden, that some one has to continue to carry these teachings for future generations. When we say that we are the "chosen" people, THIS is what we are chosen for. A burden.

    Evander on
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    i mean, i personally think some of the things jainists profess to believe are downright silly and insane

    but i can't recall the last time a jainist blew himself up in the name of... well, they're universal pacifists so...

    look, let's talk about hindus. shit-ton of them, right? horrible caste system that is (officially) part of the past, all kinds of fucked up rural psycho widow burning bullshit and stuff

    in a lot of ways, similar to american christianity in that there's a whole ton of them, can't classify them all under one label other than the one they apply to themselves, and most of the ones you'd meet are reasonable chaps who aren't pricks

    and that both feature this horrifically disturbing rural side that is completely retarded and insane and does stupid and violent things to people

    so they're pretty alike

    and yet, obviously i consider the loonie fringe of one to be more threatening than the other

    maybe i'm wrong about that, but i don't think so

    Pony on
  • Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood My baby's in there someplace She crawled right inRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Bibble wrote: »
    religion is like the fourms

    when a leader does something someone doesn't like everyone whines and makes a splinter forum
    this is actually fairly accurate

    Clint Eastwood on
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    sarukun wrote: »
    but looking on a religion "with contempt" when you obviously don't know quite exactly what you're talking about sort of makes you a dick any way you slice it, man.

    Can we please not be slicing dicks up in here

    once was enough

    Evander on
  • BibbleBibble __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Cloudman wrote: »
    Bibble wrote: »
    religion is like the fourms

    when a leader does something someone doesn't like everyone whines and makes a splinter forum
    this is actually fairly accurate

    yes that is why i said it because i am a bringer of truth

    Bibble on
    2jezcsmjpg.gif
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    Damn so being Jewish is a pretty shitty lot in life
    If I'm chosen I don't want it to be for a burden
    I want my people to be chosen for free blowjobs

    Me Too! on
  • Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood My baby's in there someplace She crawled right inRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Bibble wrote: »
    Cloudman wrote: »
    Bibble wrote: »
    religion is like the fourms

    when a leader does something someone doesn't like everyone whines and makes a splinter forum
    this is actually fairly accurate

    yes that is why i said it because i am a bringer of truth
    bibbleisms

    Clint Eastwood on
  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Dammit, I thought it was 612. I've been going around saying 612.


    How the hell do I miss ONE law?

    sarukun on
  • BibbleBibble __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2008
    WWWAH TUBE BANNED CHAT THREADS... HES THE ANTICHRIST

    Bibble on
    2jezcsmjpg.gif
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    sarukun wrote: »
    Dammit, I thought it was 612. I've been going around saying 612.


    How the hell do I miss ONE law?

    Was it the one about not erecting a column in a house of worship?

    Evander on
  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Pony wrote: »
    and that both feature this horrifically disturbing rural side that is completely retarded and insane and does stupid and violent things to people

    so they're pretty alike

    and yet, obviously i consider the loonie fringe of one to be more threatening than the other

    maybe i'm wrong about that, but i don't think so

    I'm pretty sure Pakistan will back up this part of your story.

    sarukun on
  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Evander wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    Dammit, I thought it was 612. I've been going around saying 612.


    How the hell do I miss ONE law?

    Was it the one about not erecting a column in a house of worship?

    Well, I don't know what they all are.


    That was the chapter that made me decide I didn't really want to read the Bible cover to Cover.


    It just strikes me as strange that I was one off.

    sarukun on
  • The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    sarukun wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    sarukun wrote: »
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    Everyone likes to think the other religion is the crazy one with the loons and the charlatans, I as an atheist see them all with equal contempt.

    So you're a bigger dick than everybody else combined.


    Nice going.

    Read my edit. You were too quick to reply there, or perhaps I was wrong in clicking post before I had my thoughts full realized.

    Probably that last one.


    On account of you did the same thing to me with the spelling thing.

    True. But I wasn't aggressive in my response, just making a joke. In fact, 'haha I quoted so you cant edit out your spelling mistake' is a common practice in all forums here.

    Well, I'm not smearing your good name and damning you to hell


    but looking on a religion "with contempt" when you obviously don't know quite exactly what you're talking about sort of makes you a dick any way you slice it, man.

    I know what I am talking about completely. My problem was communicating my thoughts in a way which could not be misinterpreted.

    Which I guess is incredibly ironic in a thread about religion.


    I am an atheist, but not an active one. If you believe in God then I have no problems and will not ever consider talking you out of it. My point was that from a neutral standing I perceive all fundamentalists with equal contempt. Or to put it another way, while a Christian might perceive Islamic fundamentalists to be more crazy or more of a threat, I see them as an equal standing with the Christian fundamentalists.

    In fact, fundamentalism is more of a problem than religion ever will be. And as I said, religion is just the medium these people operate in. I have no doubt there is overlap in many of these areas and I am being quite simplistic in this anyways, but the point stands. I have no problem with religion, but fundamentalism instead.

    Sorry that I was quick to post and then be all dickery about it. Sometimes I want to just get the post out there to keep up with a fast moving conversation, and you were right to call me on it. I am from a religious family so I wouldn't ever be that kind of asshole atheist who hates all religious people. I have my beliefs, everyone else has theirs. Noone is right or wrong in that in my opinion.

    The_Scarab on
  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Me Too! wrote: »
    Damn so being Jewish is a pretty shitty lot in life
    If I'm chosen I don't want it to be for a burden
    I want my people to be chosen for free blowjobs

    Well, they get really awesome food and like the coolest language on the planet.



    Trade offs.

    sarukun on
Sign In or Register to comment.