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Pope Benedict's recent mass in Paris, oh gimme a break.
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Actually, unless you drink the Salvation Cool-aid, we have not established that the catholic position is "Woo evolution" in the scientific sense. In other words, the scientific sense is one that does not involve God. If you are involving a creator or a guiding hand, you are not teaching scientific evolution.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
I did not realize that the Catholic Church was devoted to the betterment of mankind as well.
Organized religions are generally devoted to the betterment of themselves and their image as far as my experience goes.
I'm just saying maybe they hang onto the finger-and-bodypart relics and sell a few of their more gold-based works.
Edit: Honestly, after reading "A Canticle for Leibowitz" I'm more concerned about either enlarging the Vatican's library, or burning it down.
I'm sure the joy Random Poverty Stricken Muslim X gets when he thinks of how awesome it is that the Church has all those artifacts undoes the torment he experiences every day living in war-torn Afghanistan.
Well of course they are, but that's not what they'd want you to believe. Charity is one of the highest and most virtuous acts according to Jesus and also the Catholic church.
Nor are they of equal importance.
According to that link, the Church position in 2004 was that it had no position.
Benedict XVI, more recently, has stated that evolution explains the physical realm, but cannot explain those things apart from the physical realm. And if you want to get into calling that not science, then we really are just having an atheism thread and I'll leave, because that's probably the most progressive stance any faith has (or can) take on this issue.
Most of the places where people are still in poverty have this nasty tendancy to kill the missionaries.
I recognize (and sympathize) where you're coming from, but I just don't like the all or nothing position.From a strictly utilitarian position it makes sense, but the Roman Catholic Church doesn't think that way.
I mean, I have obligations to give to charity and fix the world too (and probably more than I have done so already), but I'm not living in the streets because of it.
Oh, agreed. The Catholics have always had a contradiction of being very very conservative and yet usually science-friendly.
I question a man who puts all of his faith in God while standing behind bullet proof glass.
"HA HA! I have God on my side. You can not harm me!"
It's not a contradiction. I'm a Christian and believe in evolution. I look at all of these 4000 Year believers and just shake my head in disbelief. They have faith in God to create man, but not enough faith in God to create a complex, naturally occurring system of events that results in man. Like, God's too stupid to think of that or something.
God helps those who helps themselves. Having faith doesn't mean you don't take reasonable precautions.
The thing that some people here really don't seem to get is the reason that these are priceless relics is because they have extreme religious significance. They aren't just some random asset the church picked up at some point. And since all of these things have been blessed, the Church cannot actually sell them according to Canon law, any more then I could sell my rosary.
Honestly though, the Pope says that people are becoming to fixated on possessions. Does anyone actually really dispute that? Are you all just so eager to attack religion in general and the Catholic Church in particular that you have to spin and twist everything that is said on the subject so we can have the same pointless and repetitive argument over and over and over again?
I was just wondering why you were so vehement at the Vatican trying to keep things that they value culturally.
Charity is one thing, but keeping the heritage of their culture is another thing entirely.
I have already said it is a progressive stance, and I have already applauded it for being the best of any possible religious worlds, evolutionarily speaking.
It's not evolution, though. Sorry. Feel free to leave the thread if that offends you or whatever. Just the way things are, though. You wanna be scientific, don't involve God. Or at least render him completely impotent.
I know. I'm just being a prick. :P
Amazing.
So you're saying these items deserve to be hoarded by the church and that ownership is worth more than the lives of people who are dying of diseases in abject poverty around the world?
I'm just trying to get this straight.
OK, let me give you an example. I have a picture I really like, it has some extremely positive memories attached to it, so that picture is very valuable to me. I also have a computer, which is really expensive and has no real emotional attachment to, but I still also value. Can you see how I value those two things in different ways? Can you see how this applies to relics?
Edit: Are you aware that most of the problems going on in the world right now cannot really be solved by money? I mean, you use Afghanistan as an example. Do you really think we can really help at this point by sending them money?
If you claimed to devote your life to improving the quality of life for others, as one of your highest goals and aspirations, you should definitely sell whatever you can, immediately move to another country, and improve other people's lives.
You don't make that claim, so far as I know, so YOU are not being inconsistent.
The catholic church does and also desires to hoard these items.
Plus it's not like they'd be vanishing. They'd go into museums, sometimes just down the street, where millions more would be able to enjoy them. I understand the church rents the items out to museums but it still retains ownership of them instead of selling them and getting gobs of money which it could use for charitable purposes.
Galileo says "sup?"
But seriously, for the people attacking Catholicism for its stance on evolution, what the fuck more do you want? Catholic (fuck, Judeo-Christian) belief teaches that there is a spiritual world and a physical one. It's not contradictory to say that evolution explains one world and the bible the other. You can disagree, sure, but why don't you tell me about how much Sarah Palin is supporting that theory? Anyone? Right, because Catholicism has taken a stance that allows for the coexistance of religion and science and that's something people should, at the least, respect. Or would you prefer out and out hostility from the Catholic church on this issue?
Also, in response to the pope-mobile crack, you can youtube the video of John Paul II getting shot. JP2 and Benedict are just not being idiots, though honestly I think Benedict needs it more because JP didn't look like Emperor Palpatine.
Just to get this out there, I'm a lapsed Catholic. Mostly because the church's stance on single mothers is the single most idiotic thing I've ever heard espoused, and that's impressive considering their stance on homosexuality. I'm confident, though, that the church will reform to be more accepting because that's the trend, ever since the Vatican stopped having a standing army.
Is the more pertinent point. I mean, if your sentimental picture was say, made of 3 tons of gold, it would probably have a reasonably high material value.
Yeah, they'll reform, just in about 200 years. Just long enough to be behind the ball on the universal rights all countries expect of people then.
If the Catholic Church had millions of dollars worth of stuff, but were doing nothing charitable, that wouldn't be right. However, they raise a shitload of money on a regular basis with which they do charitable work. The value of their artifacts in actual usable dollars pales in comparison to what they do spend on charity.
Why don't you sell everything you own that has significance, but isn't essential to your survival?
It's not like we use it anymore.
We are to busy worshiping it.
I am not a religious organization devoted to the betterment of mankind.
It should also be noted that many of these Muslim war-torn countries are war-torn because they keep using themselves to blow each other the fuck up.
I am Catholic and while I can and do have issues with some of the statements made by the church, I do not think for a second that holding onto some 2000 year old relic is actively causing the starvation of anyone in Afghanistan or insert-country-here.
So all charity is pointless. Good to know.
Right, but the question is whether or not the "gobs of money" (and I suspect that you probably overestimate how much they'd bring in unless they sold, like, the entire Holy See) would make any practical difference in their ability to assist others. And since the Church does not (and cannot reasonably be expected to) offer direct financial aid in the same manner as nations, I very much doubt it would. Mission work is pretty cheap.
With the amount of skipping over points you can't counter, and generalizing the shit out of other points, I'm convinced that you're just being a dick for the sake of it.
Sending money to a country where the corrupt government is just going to steal it DOESN'T do any good. That's not to say no charity of any kind does any good.
There is no actual reason that trumps other people's health and survival to keep those items. The apologetics in this thread are strange to me. The catholic church used to be the single most powerful force in Europe. Now that it's not it still is hoarding the money and items it obtained through conquests and purges from that time period, as well as other relics that it seized from nobility.
It is holding on to those items through sheer inertia.
Then why did Ceno bring it up as a counter? Obviously the money should be spent well. No one disputed that.
He basically said "Sending money wouldn't help because it doesn't get to the people." Well, some money DOES get to the people and, obviously, that's where they money should be sent.
I'm not being a dick for the sake of being a dick, and I am not skipping over posts.
If they sold everything they had, how long do you think the income derived from those sales would last? And how much additional work would they be able to do? "It doesn't matter" is not a valid answer.