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Pope Benedict's recent mass in Paris, oh gimme a break.
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doesn't anyone go to good old hell anymore?
The value beyond their monetary worth is completely irrelevant to this discussion, and your bringing it up indicates you haven't read the thread, or maybe haven't comprehended what you've read.
Fencing sax pointed it out just now, and it was only brought up one other time in this entire thread, and in the context of the argument that museums do not have access to the materials, not in a monetary context (or not as I read it).
Not really.
If the relics lead to more people converting to Catholicism (or remaining Catholics instead of turning to atheism or other faiths), then that in turn leads to more money, more manpower, and more influence for the Church.
You might argue that the relics would not appreciably increase the number of people joining the Church, however that is not the same as arguing that they are irrelevant.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
People brought up that the were leased to museums on several occassions. You claimed it didn't matter if they were making money off of it, because they still retained ownership.
Hmm, that's true. I guess I would argue that they don't appreciably increase the number, but I wouldn't be able to back that up because neither side has hard numbers here.
That's because I still don't think the money they make off of it offsets the hypocrisy in keeping those items, nor do I buy the tremendous amount of money they would make selling them is less than the money they make charging to see them. But I am willing to concede that it MAY be possible because I just don't know.
What hypocrisy?
Well this is something I only touched on briefly and wasn't the main thrust of my original point. But there is certainly something to be said for the fact that Christ's teachings were to give away all of your wealth and live modestly. The Church has pretty much done the exact opposite of that. This is a more general point that is only tangentially related to the utilitarian argument I was making earlier.
This is also a fairly big objection to Catholicism in general.
Also, this is ethically a catch-22. If they sell the relics, they could be accused of greed as it is the Church alone that decides what is and is not a relic. By assigning relic status to an object, if could be argued that they are creating artificial value. However, if they don't sell the relics, they're still accused of greed for sitting on objects of value.
I'm no fan of the Catholic Church, but I'm uncomfortable with the notion that holding charity as a primary value requires an individual or an institution to liquidate all of their objects of worth.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
There's a few counter-arguments:
1) A large orginization is better equipped to help people around the world
2) Alot of the Church's wealth is in relics, buildings and other historical assets. I mean, St. Peter's was already built. You've got the building, might as well use it. Plus, the ticket sales and such bring in long term money.
Clearly they should sell off the crosses first, then.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
1) I don't see why a large organization is necessary. The church could always collaborate with large charities while remaining small and not excessive.
2) A lot was also stolen during the Crusades. The ticket sales I've already touched on.
The Church does more than charity work. There is a lot of tight coordination across individual churches, globally, that having a large organization makes possible. Paperwork follows parishoners around, donations get moved through the system from rich areas to needy areas, and classes taught at the curches have standardized content across all parishes, and coordinating missionary work.
And that's before we get into the weird shit they do like investigate claims of miracles.
You can argue that they don't need as much as they have, or that they don't need to do any of those things, but keeping track and coordinating a billion people globally, even if less than half are active members, requires a certain high level of organization.
1 million times yes. They reckon that HIV/AIDS would be affecting less than 10% of what it does now, if the had stopped its abstinence only bullshit when it came out.
Ironically, my biology class in high school was taught by a Xaverian Brother.
Except when you tolerate teh filthy, filthy condoms.
Or curse the holy spirit.
Some of us do believe in Evolution, do believe in contraceptives etc. and some of us are absolutely fine with people choosing other religions. I am one of those people. Yes, the Pope is indeed a direct line to God but he's also (imo) human who makes his own mistakes. It's why God chose a human to express His teachings... he was asking us to discern true teachings from human fallibility.
I could go on some more but it'll probably make me angry.
Just stop with the Catholicism-bashing and respect us as people with different viewpoints about religion. It's how I treat my atheist friends. I mean, fuck this level of vitriol just deepens the divide.
Tee-hee.
...
http://www.somethingawful.com/d/most-awful/popes-cadaver-synod.php
...Way to go, God?
lol?
How is this possibly the church's fault? Theres a fire, this fire is burning people alive. The church wants to put out the fire, teach people not to step into the fire, and teach them not to start the fire again. other's assume that these people are either too dumb or too fated to change their ways and want to give people fireblankets and call it a day. Despite the obvious consequence that by not telling people that their actions are wrong, they will think there actions are a-ok. If rape and promiscuity are the fuels of this fire, the church is the only one trying to stop them. It's certainly a harder task than throwing condoms at people, but its a task that, once succeeded, can sustain itself over multiple generations. rather than say.. going in and giving africa a booster shoot of condoms every so many years.
no u
edit: speaking of points to make. about the relics issue. should all organizations who in one way or another claim to help people sell their valuable peices of art? For instance should the U.S. govt sell the lincoln memorial, the statue of liberty, or liberty bell or any other such thing to help victims of hurrican Ike? I would just like to check the universality of your position...
But were it not for your church these people could have been using condoms the past however many years.
By your analogy the catholic church is saying to people "you cannot throw water on the fire, despite the fact it will help".
I see what your saying. But I dont think condoms really put out any fire at all. They simply hide the root of the problem, like sweeping dirt under the rug. The problem is promiscuity. A behavioral change has to take place or there these people will be slaves to the condom, and will truely be slaves to themselves just like the rest of the world assumes they already are when they say "they will just do it anyway". The church doesn't believe this, and is trying to teach these people better ways of behaving.
What's wrong with promiscuity? If they were using condoms they could be as promiscuous as they like with no ill effects. The only reason promiscuity is bad in this instance is because they can't use condoms.
I see that pic and my immediate reaction is "you could totally get by the guards in that room with those poles."
Your analogy fails spectacularly on a number of points. The major one is that jumping into a fire is not one of the most basic urges of life (nor necessary to raise a family, nor is there a population of people who judge their own worth by how many fires they've jumped into).
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
We're not really talking about bones, for the most part, but religious art. The Church is also kind of cagey about selling relics (as you interpreted it) because the last time they did so the market was flooded with frauds.
Hey, the Pope just likes to keep history entertaining alright? God doesn't want people falling asleep in history class!
We lust after Women too