So I'm trying to figure out a respec into Divine Strength, but I still want to keep BoK. I realize I won't be using it, and that I'll be sticking Sanc on other tanks, but what about other classes? We frequently roll with more than one pali, so isn't keeping BoK a good idea for the classes that can get use out of it?
Edit: Should I skip Guarded by the Light? The drop in mana usage would be nice, but the amount of mana I'd be getting back from Sanctuary seems like it would make up for it.
Can anyone who's leveled a paladin (preferably holy, but not necessary) in WotLK tell me what the holy quest reward itemization situation is like?
Things were obviously awful in Azeroth, with almost no mail (pre-40) or plate having intellect on it. Things got a little better in Outland, with at least a fair amount of rewards having some spell power and/or intellect. The problem is that most plate rewards fell into one of these categories:
1: Warrior/Ret paladin gear
2: Tanking gear
3: Gear itemized for an older ret tree (i.e., Str, Stam, some int/spell power, and crit)
For pretty well all of 60-70, my paladin's highest +to stats from gear after stamina was strength, which is obviously a terrible waste for a holy paladin.
Does anyone know if we'll actually see quest rewards intended for holy paladins (stam, int, high spell power, crit, maybe some mp5), or does our uniqueness from warriors'/other paladin specs' itemization mean we're left out in the cold again?
As I stated yesterday, we are happy with Ret's PvE damage and sustatined damage in PvP, but were concerned that the burst damage in PvP could be too high. We discussed this for literally hours yesterday, which was certainly not the first time we have discussed the issue. Thus I hope these changes are not perceived as a knee-jerk reaction, but I am sure that will depend a great deal on which class you play.
Divine Storm -- the damage was changed from Holy to Physical. As you know, Holy damage is almost never mitigated and this talent could pack a lot into a very short time. This is a nerf to the ability's damage. This change is now active on Live.
Repentence -- this ability now lasts for only 6 seconds in PvP (down from 10). Obviously this is also a nerf. This change is also active on Live.
Art of War -- now affects all damage done by Judgements, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm (instead of critical strike damage). Net dps should be about the same but less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.
Righteous Vengeance -- now applies a dot affect similar to Deep Wounds (instead of critical strike damage). This ends up being a significant buff to the ability to make up for the damage lost to Divine Storm, but is also less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.
Glyph of Crusader Strike -- now reduces mana cost (instead of increased damage on stunned targets.) We thought paladins could stack too much damage vs. stunned targets. This change will be made before Nov 13.
We also fixed a bug with Seal and Judgement of Light that could sometimes result in too much healing.
In our tests, Retribution dps remains the same over longer periods of time, but they can't do quite so much damage in the initial few seconds of a PvP encounter.
I know Ret pallies feel a little picked on since we've made this mistake before of having them come out the gate too strong and then had to correct them. For that I do apologize. It's a difficult spec to balance since part of its design is to have large crits and stuns, which have obvious PvP implications. We are pretty confident this will not nerf pallies into the ground as I facetiously promised yesterday, but if we overdid it, we'll be happy to back off some of the changes.
On the other hand, maybe we'll see fewer BGs with 20 paladins on the opposing side and can get some reasonable feedback on all the other classes in the game.
Expected and doesn't seem too bad. I know I was able to pump out 12k Damage in 6 secs if everything critted against lv 75 mobs at 72 so I don't think it's that bad.
So I'm trying to figure out a respec into Divine Strength, but I still want to keep BoK. I realize I won't be using it, and that I'll be sticking Sanc on other tanks, but what about other classes? We frequently roll with more than one pali, so isn't keeping BoK a good idea for the classes that can get use out of it?
Edit: Should I skip Guarded by the Light? The drop in mana usage would be nice, but the amount of mana I'd be getting back from Sanctuary seems like it would make up for it.
And I didn't take Guarded by the Light for the mana drop, I took it for the 6% magic damage reduction.
EDIT: You might get away with dropping divine guardian and imp hammer of justice if you really want kings.
I didn't take Hammer of Justice because most of the mobs I'd want to use it on are immune anyway.
I've taken Reckoning instead of One-Hander Spec... the damage should (in theory) be a wash, but god damn it feels good when you get that double-attacking going on.
In the end, I think I'm going with 0/57/4 for now, until I can hit 80.
So I'm trying to figure out a respec into Divine Strength, but I still want to keep BoK. I realize I won't be using it, and that I'll be sticking Sanc on other tanks, but what about other classes? We frequently roll with more than one pali, so isn't keeping BoK a good idea for the classes that can get use out of it?
Edit: Should I skip Guarded by the Light? The drop in mana usage would be nice, but the amount of mana I'd be getting back from Sanctuary seems like it would make up for it.
And I didn't take Guarded by the Light for the mana drop, I took it for the 6% magic damage reduction.
EDIT: You might get away with dropping divine guardian and imp hammer of justice if you really want kings.
I didn't take Hammer of Justice because most of the mobs I'd want to use it on are immune anyway.
I've taken Reckoning instead of One-Hander Spec... the damage should (in theory) be a wash, but god damn it feels good when you get that double-attacking going on.
In the end, I think I'm going with 0/57/4 for now, until I can hit 80.
Keep in mind that HoJ now has a seperate spell interrupt component (so it can be used to interrupt casts on mobs that are immune to stuns), that's the primary reason I took it.
My avoidance is probably a bit too high for Reckoning to be worthwhile damagewise, and One-Hander affects all damage you do, not just your melee swings.
There's no where else to put your points for a Holy Paladin at this level so yes it is worth it, at 80 PvE Ret can pick it up.
Wouldn't the Ret paladin pick up imp. Blessing of Might though? I guess if you have 2 one could take that and the other kings, but if you only have 1 he should be giving that blessing right?
Don't have to do Might with a Fury or Arms Warrior, Bshout doesn't stack anymore. Even If you have 1 Paladin un-improved battle shout + kings is better than imp battle shout alone.
As I stated yesterday, we are happy with Ret's PvE damage and sustatined damage in PvP, but were concerned that the burst damage in PvP could be too high. We discussed this for literally hours yesterday, which was certainly not the first time we have discussed the issue. Thus I hope these changes are not perceived as a knee-jerk reaction, but I am sure that will depend a great deal on which class you play.
Divine Storm -- the damage was changed from Holy to Physical. As you know, Holy damage is almost never mitigated and this talent could pack a lot into a very short time. This is a nerf to the ability's damage. This change is now active on Live.
Repentence -- this ability now lasts for only 6 seconds in PvP (down from 10). Obviously this is also a nerf. This change is also active on Live.
Art of War -- now affects all damage done by Judgements, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm (instead of critical strike damage). Net dps should be about the same but less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.
Righteous Vengeance -- now applies a dot affect similar to Deep Wounds (instead of critical strike damage). This ends up being a significant buff to the ability to make up for the damage lost to Divine Storm, but is also less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.
Glyph of Crusader Strike -- now reduces mana cost (instead of increased damage on stunned targets.) We thought paladins could stack too much damage vs. stunned targets. This change will be made before Nov 13.
We also fixed a bug with Seal and Judgement of Light that could sometimes result in too much healing.
In our tests, Retribution dps remains the same over longer periods of time, but they can't do quite so much damage in the initial few seconds of a PvP encounter.
I know Ret pallies feel a little picked on since we've made this mistake before of having them come out the gate too strong and then had to correct them. For that I do apologize. It's a difficult spec to balance since part of its design is to have large crits and stuns, which have obvious PvP implications. We are pretty confident this will not nerf pallies into the ground as I facetiously promised yesterday, but if we overdid it, we'll be happy to back off some of the changes.
On the other hand, maybe we'll see fewer BGs with 20 paladins on the opposing side and can get some reasonable feedback on all the other classes in the game.
Expected and doesn't seem too bad. I know I was able to pump out 12k Damage in 6 secs if everything critted against lv 75 mobs at 72 so I don't think it's that bad.
Edit: The Art of War change is fine and i'm fucking dumb for not being able to read.
My little Prot paladin was able to tank up to the second boss of heroic Magister's Terrace without any issues. The group split up there because we all had to eat dinner, but damn. My gear is best described as "work in progress", so this patch has been very good to me.
There's no where else to put your points for a Holy Paladin at this level so yes it is worth it, at 80 PvE Ret can pick it up.
Wouldn't the Ret paladin pick up imp. Blessing of Might though? I guess if you have 2 one could take that and the other kings, but if you only have 1 he should be giving that blessing right?
Don't have to do Might with a Fury or Arms Warrior, Bshout doesn't stack anymore. Even If you have 1 Paladin un-improved battle shout + kings is better than imp battle shout alone.
Good point. I forgot about that.
Separate point entirely, but Ret paladins don't have mana problems now. Why would they ever socket a glyph that lowers the mana cost of crusader strike when it's completely unneeded?
Separate point entirely, but Ret paladins don't have mana problems now. Why would they ever socket a glyph that lowers the mana cost of crusader strike when it's completely unneeded?
Because Blizzard apparently doesn't play their own game.
As I stated yesterday, we are happy with Ret's PvE damage and sustatined damage in PvP, but were concerned that the burst damage in PvP could be too high. We discussed this for literally hours yesterday, which was certainly not the first time we have discussed the issue. Thus I hope these changes are not perceived as a knee-jerk reaction, but I am sure that will depend a great deal on which class you play.
Divine Storm -- the damage was changed from Holy to Physical. As you know, Holy damage is almost never mitigated and this talent could pack a lot into a very short time. This is a nerf to the ability's damage. This change is now active on Live.
Repentence -- this ability now lasts for only 6 seconds in PvP (down from 10). Obviously this is also a nerf. This change is also active on Live.
Art of War -- now affects all damage done by Judgements, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm (instead of critical strike damage). Net dps should be about the same but less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.
Righteous Vengeance -- now applies a dot affect similar to Deep Wounds (instead of critical strike damage). This ends up being a significant buff to the ability to make up for the damage lost to Divine Storm, but is also less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.
Glyph of Crusader Strike -- now reduces mana cost (instead of increased damage on stunned targets.) We thought paladins could stack too much damage vs. stunned targets. This change will be made before Nov 13.
We also fixed a bug with Seal and Judgement of Light that could sometimes result in too much healing.
In our tests, Retribution dps remains the same over longer periods of time, but they can't do quite so much damage in the initial few seconds of a PvP encounter.
I know Ret pallies feel a little picked on since we've made this mistake before of having them come out the gate too strong and then had to correct them. For that I do apologize. It's a difficult spec to balance since part of its design is to have large crits and stuns, which have obvious PvP implications. We are pretty confident this will not nerf pallies into the ground as I facetiously promised yesterday, but if we overdid it, we'll be happy to back off some of the changes.
On the other hand, maybe we'll see fewer BGs with 20 paladins on the opposing side and can get some reasonable feedback on all the other classes in the game.
Expected and doesn't seem too bad. I know I was able to pump out 12k Damage in 6 secs if everything critted against lv 75 mobs at 72 so I don't think it's that bad.
Separate point entirely, but Ret paladins don't have mana problems now. Why would they ever socket a glyph that lowers the mana cost of crusader strike when it's completely unneeded?
Because Blizzard apparently doesn't play their own game.
When I started mixing consecrates into my rotation, I started spending more mana than I got back through judgements. Not a lot, so it wasn't really a problem or anything. But I'm wondering if the glyph would counter that. Also, I wasn't getting heals, so that might make up for it in a raid situation. I'm not sure.
Separate point entirely, but Ret paladins don't have mana problems now. Why would they ever socket a glyph that lowers the mana cost of crusader strike when it's completely unneeded?
Because Blizzard apparently doesn't play their own game.
When I started mixing consecrates into my rotation, I started spending more mana than I got back through judgements. Not a lot, so it wasn't really a problem or anything. But I'm wondering if the glyph would counter that. Also, I wasn't getting heals, so that might make up for it in a raid situation. I'm not sure.
Other glyphs are far and away superior. Especially the Command and the Judgement Glyphs.
What are holy paladins running for their only major glyph (only one since Glyph of Holy Light is so amazing it's absolutely mandatory)? Obviously Glyph of FoL is an option, but it does change how you have to play, and I'm not sure if I'm bold enough to remove the option of FoL spam from my paladin. So besides FoL, what other holy options are there?
BT trash can now be aoe tanked like fucking Hyjal trash.
Gorefiend died... easily.
My fucking defense took a nosedive and I had to trade out like, three or four stam gems. sadness.
Seriously this is wierd, exact same thing for me, we are in very similar situations its creepy.
Ret is fine...at 80. At 70 it's just awesome. I don't think they're gonna backpedal on it right now.
Did kara yesterday, one of my friends who used to be holy is ret now, he was in half ret gear with crap gems and half holy gear, and he was second on damage at the end to a boomkin who pumped out 5600 dps on netherspite. I was 3rd on damage done at the end of the run, and put out 2600-4000 dps on moroes cause we aoed him and the adds down.
Not from what I noticed. In fact, it's better. Blessing of Sanctuary is the tits.
Yeah, considering in BT i was ending aoe fights with those worker trash packs before supremus with more mana than i started and barely taking any damage.
Did you guys miss the part where Righteous Vengeance is going to apply a Holy damage DoT on Judgement/Divine Storm that makes up for the DS damage loss? Christ.
The Righteous Vengeance buff is only equivalent if you have a 40% crit rate. Also, since it ticks for 8 secs, any crits within that tick period will probably only reset the timer, which means you lose out on the remain tick dmg. Kind of weak.
Art of War was NOT majorly buffed. The damage should remain the same over time, but fewer gigantic crits. It will be something like +4 / 8% damage (instead of +10 / 20% crit), which should be the same overall assuming a crit rate of around 40%.
In other words, Art of War is just as good as it was before if you had 40% crit (Do you have 40% crit? Me either)
The Righteous Vengeance change, if it rolls like Deep Wounds, is much better than the old, by far.
Righteous Vengeance was majorly buffed to make up for the Divine Storm nerf. It should end up at something like 10% of the crit damage each tick for 4 ticks of 2 seconds each (+40% and 8 sec total).
In other words, Art of War is just as good as it was before if you had 40% crit (Do you have 40% crit? Me either)
Most of the high-end PvP and PvE Paladins will be close to or above this number. My Ret Gear has 2 pieces in it that are T6-Worthy, the Epic BS Chest, S3 Pants/Gloves, and a Torch of the Damned. I'm sitting on almost 37% crit. Once we get to level 80, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ret Paladins working close to that number, by the time they get fairly geared up in 10/25man Naxx.
That goes back to the "this game is balanced around the top-end gear, not the low-end."
The damage bonus on the new talent is as good as if you had 40% crit with the old, that is what was said. What I was saying is if you don't have 40% crit, it's better.
Last night, my S2 geared warrior friend had 46% crit chance with all the buffs on raid (and it was far from a perfect raid comp). It's balanced for PVE. Again, it's nerfing your PVP performance.
EDIT: As in, the burst capabilities for Ret. In the end, AoW still gives you Instant FoLs. You can dispel stuns with HoF. Ret can still pull amazing stuff.
Last night, my S2 geared warrior friend had 46% crit chance with all the buffs on raid (and it was far from a perfect raid comp). It's balanced for PVE. Again, it's nerfing your PVP performance.
Which is good to hear, and any Ret Paladin that ENJOYs PvEing will be happy about it.
In other words, Art of War is just as good as it was before if you had 40% crit (Do you have 40% crit? Me either)
Most of the high-end PvP and PvE Paladins will be close to or above this number. My Ret Gear has 2 pieces in it that are T6-Worthy, the Epic BS Chest, S3 Pants/Gloves, and a Torch of the Damned. I'm sitting on almost 37% crit. Once we get to level 80, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ret Paladins working close to that number, by the time they get fairly geared up in 10/25man Naxx.
That goes back to the "this game is balanced around the top-end gear, not the low-end."
I don't understand why you're comparing T6 + Torch + Whatever else to Naxx 25 gear. Naxx isn't top end. Naxx is Karazhan 2.0.
yeah seriously
it's entry-level raiding no one will care about 2-3 months after wotlk hits
autono-wally, erotibot300 on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited October 2008
Meh
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Posts
This is the build I went with: 0/55/6
And I didn't take Guarded by the Light for the mana drop, I took it for the 6% magic damage reduction.
EDIT: You might get away with dropping divine guardian and imp hammer of justice if you really want kings.
Things were obviously awful in Azeroth, with almost no mail (pre-40) or plate having intellect on it. Things got a little better in Outland, with at least a fair amount of rewards having some spell power and/or intellect. The problem is that most plate rewards fell into one of these categories:
1: Warrior/Ret paladin gear
2: Tanking gear
3: Gear itemized for an older ret tree (i.e., Str, Stam, some int/spell power, and crit)
For pretty well all of 60-70, my paladin's highest +to stats from gear after stamina was strength, which is obviously a terrible waste for a holy paladin.
Does anyone know if we'll actually see quest rewards intended for holy paladins (stam, int, high spell power, crit, maybe some mp5), or does our uniqueness from warriors'/other paladin specs' itemization mean we're left out in the cold again?
Expected and doesn't seem too bad. I know I was able to pump out 12k Damage in 6 secs if everything critted against lv 75 mobs at 72 so I don't think it's that bad.
I didn't take Hammer of Justice because most of the mobs I'd want to use it on are immune anyway.
I've taken Reckoning instead of One-Hander Spec... the damage should (in theory) be a wash, but god damn it feels good when you get that double-attacking going on.
In the end, I think I'm going with 0/57/4 for now, until I can hit 80.
Keep in mind that HoJ now has a seperate spell interrupt component (so it can be used to interrupt casts on mobs that are immune to stuns), that's the primary reason I took it.
My avoidance is probably a bit too high for Reckoning to be worthwhile damagewise, and One-Hander affects all damage you do, not just your melee swings.
Don't have to do Might with a Fury or Arms Warrior, Bshout doesn't stack anymore. Even If you have 1 Paladin un-improved battle shout + kings is better than imp battle shout alone.
Edit: The Art of War change is fine and i'm fucking dumb for not being able to read.
Good point. I forgot about that.
Separate point entirely, but Ret paladins don't have mana problems now. Why would they ever socket a glyph that lowers the mana cost of crusader strike when it's completely unneeded?
Because Blizzard apparently doesn't play their own game.
Other glyphs are far and away superior. Especially the Command and the Judgement Glyphs.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
p.s: told you they'd hit burst without touching sustained.
Pick the haunt spec. It's been commanded!
now it's just an aoe crusader strike that heals for very little.
On a Plate Wearing Self Healing class.
Chaser shhhhhh.
Still, that's a pretty ridiculous nerf. Especially when I want to tank a 5-man as ret. The holy damage was nice for AoE Threat.
Yeah 4k sustained TPS on Supremus last night, while remaining second to the other prot pally by not much through the whole fight.
Seriously this is wierd, exact same thing for me, we are in very similar situations its creepy.
Did kara yesterday, one of my friends who used to be holy is ret now, he was in half ret gear with crap gems and half holy gear, and he was second on damage at the end to a boomkin who pumped out 5600 dps on netherspite. I was 3rd on damage done at the end of the run, and put out 2600-4000 dps on moroes cause we aoed him and the adds down.
Yeah, considering in BT i was ending aoe fights with those worker trash packs before supremus with more mana than i started and barely taking any damage.
But I think they should up the physical damage done by Divine Storm.
I think they need to make it Holy Damage and lower the damage.
I NEED MY DIVINE STORM THREAT.
Yes.
But Righteous Fury only buffs holy threat. Yes, I'm whining about this change from the PoV of a (sometimes) Ret Tank.
I preferred being a critbot.
In other words, Art of War is just as good as it was before if you had 40% crit (Do you have 40% crit? Me either)
The Righteous Vengeance change, if it rolls like Deep Wounds, is much better than the old, by far.
Most of the high-end PvP and PvE Paladins will be close to or above this number. My Ret Gear has 2 pieces in it that are T6-Worthy, the Epic BS Chest, S3 Pants/Gloves, and a Torch of the Damned. I'm sitting on almost 37% crit. Once we get to level 80, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ret Paladins working close to that number, by the time they get fairly geared up in 10/25man Naxx.
That goes back to the "this game is balanced around the top-end gear, not the low-end."
First Blood 85 Priest 80 Mage 85 Paladin 83 Druid 80 DK 85 Huntard 85 Shaman
"Tardo Wan" sounds like a Jedi that required 436 years to train and then killed himself by looking into his lightsaber while turning it on."
EDIT: As in, the burst capabilities for Ret. In the end, AoW still gives you Instant FoLs. You can dispel stuns with HoF. Ret can still pull amazing stuff.
Which is good to hear, and any Ret Paladin that ENJOYs PvEing will be happy about it.
First Blood 85 Priest 80 Mage 85 Paladin 83 Druid 80 DK 85 Huntard 85 Shaman
"Tardo Wan" sounds like a Jedi that required 436 years to train and then killed himself by looking into his lightsaber while turning it on."
I don't understand why you're comparing T6 + Torch + Whatever else to Naxx 25 gear. Naxx isn't top end. Naxx is Karazhan 2.0.
it's entry-level raiding no one will care about 2-3 months after wotlk hits
I'm level 61. I don't think I have SoV yet.