Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited October 2008
JotW got nerfed. I think they are going to try and make us less bursty. But they already tried to lower our damage output in a multitude of ways (2h spec nerf, fanaticism nerf...) but they usually end up reverting it back.
Frankly, I don't know what they can really do at this point. Pallies are OP at 70, but so are frost mages. Tough titties until we get to the balanced 80s?
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
That's what I thought too, but that blue post suggests otherwise.
Edit: The reason I thought maybe JotW is because as it stands we basically have unlimited mana. I love it, don't get me wrong, but it makes our damage output ridiculous since we don't have energy ticks holding us back. We can unload everything 100% of the time and never run out of mana.
I hope to god i'm wrong, but I dunno what else they could do.
They're really not balanced at 80 either, but neither is anyone else tbh.
I'd bet it would be JotW as well, infinite mana is retarded no matter how you cut it. They can still make it so that in PvE it takes a really long time (replenishment + divine plea) for you to run out of mana even if they nerf the returns or whatever.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited October 2008
We can't unload everything 100% of the time. I've tried that, sometimes you have to choose between a judge and a DS, and if you go DS you lose out on some mana.
Really though, we shouldn't be going out of mana. That should be the exception, not the rule. Our mitigating factor is our long cooldowns on our attacks. The way it works now is that a ret paladin at full mana is decent, but a ret pally at no mana is a paperweight. Conversely, rogues operate with no-to-low cooldowns and their mitigating factor is energy, and warriors have their rage, which can be pushed out in a giant executegasm.
Munkus Beaver on
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Thinking a bit, to be honest with Mana burn you're still pretty fucked even if you are getting so much mana back from JotW, so I couldn't tell you what they will do. Ret doesn't put out too much PvE DPS as it is, but a lot of the factors in PvP make them very powerful so I don't know how they'd go about it.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited October 2008
Are they really that deadly in PvP at 80? With all that resilience and shit? Resilience is the paladin bane, and I'd figure at 80 with people properly geared, it would be fair game.
Munkus Beaver on
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I can imagine with Art of War among many other things, Paladins are going to be a goddamn force to be reckoned with. Huge DPS, instant heals, bubbles, snare immunity.
Yet again I find Arena ruining my game for me.
I wish they had never instituted that stupid shit, they balance everything around it now.
Are they really that deadly in PvP at 80? With all that resilience and shit? Resilience is the paladin bane, and I'd figure at 80 with people properly geared, it would be fair game.
Yes, hand of sac, freedom and protection are great group buffs, instant flash heals hit very high, you can CC very well (20 sec HoJ is irritating), you can burst under a stun regardless of resilience since JoCommand is 100% crit and CS glyph does more damage when stunned. It's also very hard to stop a Ret Paladin. Honestly I don't think they're too bad but they're pretty powerful. Ghost in this instance likely wasn't talking about some huge nerf around the corner, just some minor tweaking, he's listed some stuff that Unholy DKs are getting reduced and it's really not bad.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited October 2008
TBH, I think the 20 second HoJ is kinda dumb. But I'm all for it!
Munkus Beaver on
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doesn't HoJ have something like a 45 second DR? going immune on the 3rd stun even?
so you'd have 10.5 seconds of stuns in 90 seconds total?
or am i hallucinating again
Little Jim on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited October 2008
5 seconds of total feebleness 3 times a minute.
If they use the trinket, you have 5 more times to beat them senseless before they can do anything again.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
doesn't HoJ have something like a 45 second DR? going immune on the 3rd stun even?
so you'd have 10.5 seconds of stuns in 90 seconds total?
or am i hallucinating again
It has the same diminishing returns as any other stun, I am 99% sure you don't run into it ever with a 20 second Hammer unless you're using Seal of Justice.
The only damage you're giving up in PvP is Fanaticism and with a 20 sec HoJ that means every 3rd Judge of Command is a guaranteed crit anyway, which is = to ~33% crit?
The problem with Ret being OP right now is in arenas. Their damage is okay, but no one else but a Deathknight or another Ret pally can kill one. Infinite mana means infinite heals. Very, very good heals.
I predict some kind of Sheath of Light nerf. Ret healing is just too strong at the moment. It scales too well. At lvl 80 their seeing 14K Holy Light crits. That's way too powerful for a melee class.
I just hope they keep the core 3.0.2 mechanics the same, because I really enjoy them. It's like playing the class I thought I was getting back when the game first launched.
zenpotato on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited October 2008
oh no arena is broken
Honestly, I don't give two shits. Druids have been broken in 2v2 and 3v3 since BC release. If ret pallies are OP in 2v2 or 3v3, who gives a shit? That's par for the course, right? And people only do arenas cause they have to, right?
I have yet to see anybody asides from myself who is gung-ho about arenas.
Munkus Beaver on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Fuck arena, the only time people cry about arena is when they're getting curb-stomped by some other class, then blizzard caves and either hardcore nerfs the other classes or buffs the hell out of the complaining class to make it "more balanced and even".
It can be fun sometimes, but it shouldn't be what class mechanics are based off of in any way, and in my opinion arena will never be a balanced version of pvp cause no matter what changes are implemented players will always find some "flavor of the month" team that dominates that bracket.
I agree with the "fuck arena" sentiment. The problem is that Blizzard has deemed arena the mighty one and only source of the best PvP gear, so in order to remain competitive in battlegrounds, one is forced to enter the dump that is the arena. Knowing that, I would hope that no certain class or classes just dominate the scene.
And having a hard to kill, high DPS god class in battlegrounds probably isn't a good plan either.
Arenas were a good step in theory that work out poorly in practice. I'm surprised so many of the lessons they learned with WarCraft III were ignored (mostly in regards to a competitive ladder system).
I enjoy competitive PvP and kind of like arenas, but the problem is there's no middle ground. You have arenas, where (thanks to a total lack of support for mediocre players) its do-or-die with gear, spec, and skill, with little room for error, and then you have BGs where you can lick your keyboard and get honor.
Some kind of middle ground would be nice. In PvE terms, it would be like having two zones: Regular Setthek Halls and Black Temple. You do one or the other.
I definitely agree about the middle ground bit. WTB middle ground.
I'm hoping they adjust arenas. One thing I'd like to see is encouragement for bad and mediocre players to keep playing arenas, so the system is less schizophrenic between the winners are losers. Have some gear with hefty requirements to make it all "exclusive" and such, and then have other gear with requirements like "win 20 games total" or "play X number of games" or whatever.
The idea being that it would mirror PvE progression.
Good player PvE Progression:
5 mans --> heroics --> first 10 man --> first 25 man --> hardest 25 man
Mediocre player PvE Progression:
5 mans
> heroics
> first 10 man, can't quite clear it
> first 25 man, can clear half of it
Bad player PvE Progression:
5 mans
> heroics (only some)
> first 10 man, can clear about half
Right now in arenas there is really no progression, there's a top and a bottom and no real reason to exist in the middle.
Well, they're doing the three sets per season at least. Maybe that will help.
Blizzard always gets it right. They just take a very long time in doing so. I imagine that by season 2 or 3 of WotlK, arenas will be much more playable and enjoyable.
The only way Blizzard will ever "get it right" is by actually matching players up by their gear and skill.
They have failed gloriously on both fronts, and although they keep touting new systems to combat unfair matchups, I won't believe it until I see it. This game was founded on PvE, and the switch to such a PvP-centric model just doesn't fucking work and they don't get that.
Certain classes will always be OP, certain teams will always have a huge advantage, people will always inherently be fuckfaced assholes and try to screw the system any way they can. As such, Arena does nothing for this game but promote assholery and min-maxing with the latest "Flavor of the month" teams in order to take advantage of a system that is widely regarded as a horrible aspect of the game that people are forced into.
Unless they turn this game into Half Life 2, this Arena bullshit will never work.
They're doing some behind the scenes "across team creation" remembering of ratings. If anything, that may help.
There's been two things I've mostly bitched about:
- Getting gear later in.
- Fighting teams with significantly better gear than you (or maybe even skill, but gear is an obvious and clear cut measure at least)
They've taken steps that should help improve the situation for both areas, but I have no idea how much better (or worse?) things will be.
Really, the thing that ends up killing it for me though, is the ultra competitiveness you're expected to have. I just wanna have some fun, you know?
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
The only way Blizzard will ever "get it right" is by actually matching players up by their gear and skill.
They have failed gloriously on both fronts, and although they keep touting new systems to combat unfair matchups, I won't believe it until I see it. This game was founded on PvE, and the switch to such a PvP-centric model just doesn't fucking work and they don't get that.
Certain classes will always be OP, certain teams will always have a huge advantage, people will always inherently be fuckfaced assholes and try to screw the system any way they can. As such, Arena does nothing for this game but promote assholery and min-maxing with the latest "Flavor of the month" teams in order to take advantage of a system that is widely regarded as a horrible aspect of the game that people are forced into.
Unless they turn this game into Half Life 2, this Arena bullshit will never work.
Fucking arena, I fucking hate it.
The worst part is how it's another fucking number for shitcocks to throw at you in an argument.
"What? How can you possibly argue that Ice Lance spam is better DPS in 2 piece Tier 5 than Arcane!"
"LOL STFU NOOB UR ARENA RATING IS ONLY 1450 MINES 1800 LOL STFU NOOB L2P"
IMDO, the PvP/PvP reward system was at its best in 2.0.1 -- the six weeks between the big honor system overhaul and the release of TBC.
Of course, some people throw an absolute fit if you can get good gear in battlegrounds just because some people AFK or suck in them or whatever. I don't give a shit, but I'd sure like to be rewarded well for actually participating in and playing well in them.
Here's a nice simple fix for the Paladin Arena thing.
Don't allow Paladin's to use bubble in the Arena.
There. Done. Now stfu and leave the rest of the paladin community alone.
Actually, that (for once) doesn't have anything to do with this. Paladins don't even need to use their bubbles right now. They heal (instantly) for too much.
Even Holy Lights are crazy. 14K HL crits? That's an awful lot of healing power for a "DPS" class.
I hate the paladin community so much. We must be the only class that is demanding a nerf on ourselves along with all the retards out there.
Seriously, what's so hard to understand? Yes, paladins are very strong PvP-wise in PTR/3.0 since most of our core abilities only have one rank and are scaled for level 80 play. We won't get new ranks of Divine Storm or Crusader Strike in the expansion.
Posts
Frankly, I don't know what they can really do at this point. Pallies are OP at 70, but so are frost mages. Tough titties until we get to the balanced 80s?
Edit: The reason I thought maybe JotW is because as it stands we basically have unlimited mana. I love it, don't get me wrong, but it makes our damage output ridiculous since we don't have energy ticks holding us back. We can unload everything 100% of the time and never run out of mana.
I hope to god i'm wrong, but I dunno what else they could do.
They're really not balanced at 80 either, but neither is anyone else tbh.
I'd bet it would be JotW as well, infinite mana is retarded no matter how you cut it. They can still make it so that in PvE it takes a really long time (replenishment + divine plea) for you to run out of mana even if they nerf the returns or whatever.
Really though, we shouldn't be going out of mana. That should be the exception, not the rule. Our mitigating factor is our long cooldowns on our attacks. The way it works now is that a ret paladin at full mana is decent, but a ret pally at no mana is a paperweight. Conversely, rogues operate with no-to-low cooldowns and their mitigating factor is energy, and warriors have their rage, which can be pushed out in a giant executegasm.
Yet again I find Arena ruining my game for me.
I wish they had never instituted that stupid shit, they balance everything around it now.
Yes, hand of sac, freedom and protection are great group buffs, instant flash heals hit very high, you can CC very well (20 sec HoJ is irritating), you can burst under a stun regardless of resilience since JoCommand is 100% crit and CS glyph does more damage when stunned. It's also very hard to stop a Ret Paladin. Honestly I don't think they're too bad but they're pretty powerful. Ghost in this instance likely wasn't talking about some huge nerf around the corner, just some minor tweaking, he's listed some stuff that Unholy DKs are getting reduced and it's really not bad.
so you'd have 10.5 seconds of stuns in 90 seconds total?
or am i hallucinating again
If they use the trinket, you have 5 more times to beat them senseless before they can do anything again.
It has the same diminishing returns as any other stun, I am 99% sure you don't run into it ever with a 20 second Hammer unless you're using Seal of Justice.
The only damage you're giving up in PvP is Fanaticism and with a 20 sec HoJ that means every 3rd Judge of Command is a guaranteed crit anyway, which is = to ~33% crit?
I predict some kind of Sheath of Light nerf. Ret healing is just too strong at the moment. It scales too well. At lvl 80 their seeing 14K Holy Light crits. That's way too powerful for a melee class.
I just hope they keep the core 3.0.2 mechanics the same, because I really enjoy them. It's like playing the class I thought I was getting back when the game first launched.
Honestly, I don't give two shits. Druids have been broken in 2v2 and 3v3 since BC release. If ret pallies are OP in 2v2 or 3v3, who gives a shit? That's par for the course, right? And people only do arenas cause they have to, right?
I have yet to see anybody asides from myself who is gung-ho about arenas.
That's bullshit. Druids were the pariah class for Arena healing until they introduced the PvP water.
Right now, no one can kill ret paladins in arenas. That's unbalanced.
I don't particularly care, but other people do. They'll get reworked somehow to be more killable. I suspect healing nerfs.
It can be fun sometimes, but it shouldn't be what class mechanics are based off of in any way, and in my opinion arena will never be a balanced version of pvp cause no matter what changes are implemented players will always find some "flavor of the month" team that dominates that bracket.
And having a hard to kill, high DPS god class in battlegrounds probably isn't a good plan either.
I enjoy competitive PvP and kind of like arenas, but the problem is there's no middle ground. You have arenas, where (thanks to a total lack of support for mediocre players) its do-or-die with gear, spec, and skill, with little room for error, and then you have BGs where you can lick your keyboard and get honor.
Some kind of middle ground would be nice. In PvE terms, it would be like having two zones: Regular Setthek Halls and Black Temple. You do one or the other.
I'm hoping they adjust arenas. One thing I'd like to see is encouragement for bad and mediocre players to keep playing arenas, so the system is less schizophrenic between the winners are losers. Have some gear with hefty requirements to make it all "exclusive" and such, and then have other gear with requirements like "win 20 games total" or "play X number of games" or whatever.
The idea being that it would mirror PvE progression.
Good player PvE Progression:
5 mans --> heroics --> first 10 man --> first 25 man --> hardest 25 man
Mediocre player PvE Progression:
5 mans
> heroics
> first 10 man, can't quite clear it
> first 25 man, can clear half of it
Bad player PvE Progression:
5 mans
> heroics (only some)
> first 10 man, can clear about half
Right now in arenas there is really no progression, there's a top and a bottom and no real reason to exist in the middle.
Blizzard always gets it right. They just take a very long time in doing so. I imagine that by season 2 or 3 of WotlK, arenas will be much more playable and enjoyable.
The only way Blizzard will ever "get it right" is by actually matching players up by their gear and skill.
They have failed gloriously on both fronts, and although they keep touting new systems to combat unfair matchups, I won't believe it until I see it. This game was founded on PvE, and the switch to such a PvP-centric model just doesn't fucking work and they don't get that.
Certain classes will always be OP, certain teams will always have a huge advantage, people will always inherently be fuckfaced assholes and try to screw the system any way they can. As such, Arena does nothing for this game but promote assholery and min-maxing with the latest "Flavor of the month" teams in order to take advantage of a system that is widely regarded as a horrible aspect of the game that people are forced into.
Unless they turn this game into Half Life 2, this Arena bullshit will never work.
Fucking arena, I fucking hate it.
There's been two things I've mostly bitched about:
- Getting gear later in.
- Fighting teams with significantly better gear than you (or maybe even skill, but gear is an obvious and clear cut measure at least)
They've taken steps that should help improve the situation for both areas, but I have no idea how much better (or worse?) things will be.
Really, the thing that ends up killing it for me though, is the ultra competitiveness you're expected to have. I just wanna have some fun, you know?
"What? How can you possibly argue that Ice Lance spam is better DPS in 2 piece Tier 5 than Arcane!"
"LOL STFU NOOB UR ARENA RATING IS ONLY 1450 MINES 1800 LOL STFU NOOB L2P"
Of course, some people throw an absolute fit if you can get good gear in battlegrounds just because some people AFK or suck in them or whatever. I don't give a shit, but I'd sure like to be rewarded well for actually participating in and playing well in them.
Well you're in luck http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showpost.php?p=7298655&postcount=1076 http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showpost.php?p=7305799&postcount=1099
Don't allow Paladin's to use bubble in the Arena.
There. Done. Now stfu and leave the rest of the paladin community alone.
Actually, that (for once) doesn't have anything to do with this. Paladins don't even need to use their bubbles right now. They heal (instantly) for too much.
Even Holy Lights are crazy. 14K HL crits? That's an awful lot of healing power for a "DPS" class.
It's Blizzard. Even if they started TOMORROW we wouldn't get huge sweeping changes like this for 3 years.
Seriously, what's so hard to understand? Yes, paladins are very strong PvP-wise in PTR/3.0 since most of our core abilities only have one rank and are scaled for level 80 play. We won't get new ranks of Divine Storm or Crusader Strike in the expansion.
This is kind of frustrating.