Sustained 4.5k is probably similar to what our tanks get.
I really wish I had some hard data now. I wonder if Recount can record the new threat values.
My 10-man Naxx was usually about 4.?kish, I was off tanking a lot of the shit, because druid tank was pissy about that for some reason (first time I didn't mind since I didn't really know the fights and how they went, but this will be the third time in there. LET ME TANK BOSSES!!!).
I dont have threat problems, and no one is really able to pull off me unless its a huge pull and the dps goes balls to the wall on mobs I still haven't hit much yet. Maybe its my gear? I'm still a bit confused on certian stats. I feel a bit low on the overall avoidance table. Looking at my numbers, its nothing terrible and healers never seem to have trouble/complaints, just feel a bit undergeared on avoidance.
Ok guys, have you had any problems with the new taunt?
I was all excited to try it out at 4H during my last Naxx Run and had the awesome bad luck to get a Resisted twice in a row.
Same thing happened to me the first time I used it. Our regular taunt is all glyphed up to be reliable, and this one isn't. We're just used to having a dependable taunt. For that reason, it's still the #2 taunt in my bag of tricks.
Also, killed Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad last night. That was cool, though not as hard as I thought it would be. I didn't think we'd learn both in one night.
Naxx10 needs to cough up some trash loot. We've got a couple of wands and nothing else. That's bullshit.
KT is easy if you can get saph down. The only problem is having the healers on the ball as far as ice blocks are concerned. That and if your MT can't manage to tank all 3 without dying (gets really hard to see void zones), hoping your OT doesn't get ice blocked.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Ok guys, have you had any problems with the new taunt?
I was all excited to try it out at 4H during my last Naxx Run and had the awesome bad luck to get a Resisted twice in a row.
I discovered weds night that it's not very reliable for picking up adds at long range. Generally if I was tagging them with a taunt at long range, the taunt portion isn't lasting long enough and the damage from it isn't enough to keep them on me and not running after a healer before they get halfway to where I'm tanking/kiting the pack.
Why would you use Bloodlust immediately, except in specific cases? At least 2 classes get a dps increase at 20%, several bosses soft enrage, and if you only have 1 shaman you may not be able to use it again for the next attempt, so unless the boss fight takes more than 5 minutes and you have two shaman its normally beneficial to save it.
Because its a lot easier to time 2-3-4-5 minute cooldowns in that case. It basically guarantees that everyones cooldowns will be popped completely during bloodlust...5 minute ones, 3 minute ones, and 2 minute trinket ones, instead of risking a few people havin a few seconds to go on theirs.
Munkus, Divine Storm benefits from causing Righteous Vengeance procs, which is why it does more damage once you have a certain amount of crit. Once it crits often enough, the damage from RV that gets added on, plus the damage it does with the 2pc set bonus is more than Crusader Strike can do. With the bonus, the two deal almost the same damage anyway just from smacking the button.
While the damage per cast of DS could potentially be greater than CS. CS still provides the higher DPS per cast, so in that case, you should still prioritize CS over DS.
Why would you use Bloodlust immediately, except in specific cases? At least 2 classes get a dps increase at 20%, several bosses soft enrage, and if you only have 1 shaman you may not be able to use it again for the next attempt, so unless the boss fight takes more than 5 minutes and you have two shaman its normally beneficial to save it.
Because its a lot easier to time 2-3-4-5 minute cooldowns in that case. It basically guarantees that everyones cooldowns will be popped completely during bloodlust...5 minute ones, 3 minute ones, and 2 minute trinket ones, instead of risking a few people havin a few seconds to go on theirs.
So I was right! I win the forums!
Its not a huge difference, but your dps classes should all know the approximate length of the fight which means they can time their cds around a use of hero in the last 60 seconds of the fight. It may be easier since everyone can just blow their cds whenever, but the fact that several classes have significant dps gains sub 20% means that your probably losing dps overall. The only downside I see is that there is potential for classes to lose the use of a fraction of a cooldowns use since using it at the beginning allows everything to line up perfectly, but it seems like that would be less of a dps loss than missing the 20% window.
While the damage per cast of DS could potentially be greater than CS. CS still provides the higher DPS per cast, so in that case, you should still prioritize CS over DS.
I'm not quite following this logic - It would seem to me that the higher overall damage move should be prioritized first, and the point that Divine Storm procs a dot on crit and CS doesn't seems pretty valid to me once you have 2-pice T7. They're both instant, so the damage-per-GCD would be superior for DS. CS may be a greater overall part of your damage because of its shorter cooldown, but not more damage per attack.
While the damage per cast of DS could potentially be greater than CS. CS still provides the higher DPS per cast, so in that case, you should still prioritize CS over DS.
I'm not quite following this logic - It would seem to me that the higher overall damage move should be prioritized first, and the point that Divine Storm procs a dot on crit and CS doesn't seems pretty valid to me once you have 2-pice T7. They're both instant, so the damage-per-GCD would be superior for DS. CS may be a greater overall part of your damage because of its shorter cooldown, but not more damage per attack.
Just Some Dude has it right. CS ends up looking like a higher part of your overall damage, but that's because it has:
a) shorter cooldown
b) Righteous Vengeance DoT gets listed as it's own damage, rather than being attributed to DS
You still end up doing more dps prioritizing DS over CS. Though it also depends completely on the 2pc set bonus (10% more DS damage) and partially on having a high enough crit rate to make RV shine. My current rotation to start a fight is Judge, DS, CS/Cons, Cons/CS, Judge, then the next time around CS will clip DS in order to get both off without clipping Judge. This cycle has produced an excellent dps gain, but wouldn't be quite as viable without the 4pc reduction in cooldown on Judgement.
I can't find the info over at EJ atm to confirm my story, but I know for a long time they had the math showing that with 2pc DS + the ensuing proc of RV from crits resulted in higher dps. I then tested this out myself a little when I got the 2pc, discarded it, and then revisited it a couple weeks ago when I hit my 4pc. All results since getting my 4pc 2 weeks ago indicate that in all situations favoring DS over CS is a dps increase, unless you don't ever crit. Personally I crit regularly. Nevermind the fact that putting DS before CS for your opener actually offsets your cooldowns much better, or the fact that I confirmed that parts of my rotation favor CS over DS due to not wanting to clip my next Judgement.
We can argue this point all day to be honest, and both of us will probably think they are right. I've seen the differences in recount, I constantly experiment and try new things to maximize my dps, and this is what I've found works. If you want to believe different go for it, it won't impact me in the slightest.
There was a "discussion" about this before, where one side was arguing Judgement always comes first, and the other side stating that doing so causes Crusader Stike to basically have the same CD as judgement since you are forcing it to the back of the line.
What's the verdict?
Right now what I am doing is opening with judgement, immediately crusader striking and then doing DS, when the cooldowns are up, I then hold off on judgement for about .5 seconds and crusader strike first, immediately following it up with a judgement.
If I time it right, I can usually get another crusader strike in, and then DS, then back to Judgement. After that it all falls apart.
Also, what's the accepted glyph setup for non PvP ret pallies these days?
I actually use the Seal of Command glyph instead of the Crusader Strike one, just because SoC is situationally useful (switch on Gluth right before decimate for example, Loatheb on 10 when we're running 1.5 healers) and I pretty much never have mana problems that a demonic rune can't fix.
Edit: regarding the delaying CS thing
I always take EJ stuff with a grain of salt, because in the world where they practice their math-fu they always have 0 latency. Since Judgement is an 8s CD and CS is 6, Judgement comes off cooldown 8s after you start, and CS comes off cooldown at (1.5+6) 7.5s, so it would go first the second time around, and you don't clash for a while. Therefore there's no problem with effectively adding another 2s CD to CS, because it doesn't happen that way. In reality with some latency, you won't always get the CS off within that half second window and they'll clash.
Minor:
Might
Sense Undead
Wisdom (we often only have two pallies and the other does kings, so I do wis on the two of us then might myself)
And to respond to Wavecrasher, I prioritize Judge over everything, and never delay it (unless recoil will kill me) or clip its global. My personal rotation is pretty long, and I can't recall all of it off the top of my head, but is close to J, DS, CS/Cons(depends on mob numbers), Cons/CS, J, exo/holy wrath, CS, DS, J, Cons then comes a few seconds of just hitting abilities as the pop off cooldown making sure not to clip Judgement, then start at beginning again. Pretty painless and very dependent on the fact that I have a 7 sec recast on Judgement instead of 8 sec. Really just practice, I don't even think anymore about any of my abilities, I just know when they are cycling up and I'm ready to hit the right ones. Run tons of instances when you can, wail on training dummies till you hate em, whatever it takes to have an internal clock on the majority of your abilities. And as Just Some Dude mentioned, some of the cooldowns etc change if your latency is shitty as hell.
So long as you prioritize Judgement over everything else and never clip it, the only truly important thing is to never waste cooldowns. You should almost always have an ability ready to go as soon as the global refreshes. Now with AW back off the global this is slightly less true, and on Non-Exo capable mobs this will also be not completely true, but for the most part I'm always using a global cooldown for something.
Recent EJ theorycrafting indicates that if you have 4pc bonus, judge->consecrate->CS->DS is the best starting rotation. Then after that FCFS ofcourse. This probably relies on minimal lag though.
Yeah I move Cons around at times if the pulls are just absolute masses of mobs, like clearing spider wing in Naxx. But personally I've found what I posted above to do me the most good, and smooth my own personal rotation out.
Let's assume you're in an instance. So you're going to be getting healed for your seal of blood/martyr recoil. Consecration is just going to add to your total damage. The only bad time to use it is if your group is using lots of CC.
Exactly what the two above me said. I move it around for big groups of mobs so it gets to inflate my meter e-peen a little more.
And in regards to EJ's numbers. I recommend using their advice in a general sense more than anything. It's a good rule of thumb, but not always accurate. When the expansion first hit EJ still had people leading off fights with CS to "make the rotation better" (and yes I see the irony in that since part of my reasoning for DS>CS on first rotation is smoothing the rotation) while I was ignoring that advice and doing my rotation with Judge first. Lo and behold they later theory-crafted that Judgement should almost always have priority over everything with the exception being extreme aoe or risk of death from blood kickback. So while I have been called a dick earlier in this thread and people continue to doubt my info, I will say that I run a freakish amount of instances, and I test everything before I pass it on to others as advice. Take it how you will.
Nambkab on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Let's assume you're in an instance. So you're going to be getting healed for your seal of blood/martyr recoil. Consecration is just going to add to your total damage. The only bad time to use it is if your group is using lots of CC.
Change your meta. The +crit rating/+crit damage, or +agl/+crit damage metas will be better. I went with the +agl one because it was cheaper and I was trying to save money.
Well depends on what you want to do. If you want to maximize pve dps switch your meta to the 21 agi, 3% crit dmg/21 crit 3%crit dmg. And as far as gems go, put enough blue gems to meet your meta, then all the rest should be pure strength. You can especially lose the hit gem since you are well over the hit cap of 263 (8%).
Otherwise excellent start to gearing. You will likely have that Titansteel Destroyer for a long time, go ahead and slap at least an 85 atk enchant to it.
First thing to do is start running heroics for badge gear. Keep doing the Ebon Blade dailies for rep till you hit exalted. Buy the boots. Oh, and pick up an enchanted tear for your helmet, and replace the meta with the +agi/+crit dmg one. The tear will count towards all the gems needed to activate the meta then you can just gem strength in every slot you come across. Run heroic UK till you get the pants. Run Gundrak till you get the ring. Nexus for the belt, or buy the leather badge one. Get a blacksmith to make you Vengeance Bindings.
Also, you don't have to be so dedicated to hit cap. Hit is important, and you probably shouldn't drop under 6.5%, but strength is ret pallies greatest friend. If you need it, remember you can always grab the +20hit enchant for your gloves.
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My 10-man Naxx was usually about 4.?kish, I was off tanking a lot of the shit, because druid tank was pissy about that for some reason (first time I didn't mind since I didn't really know the fights and how they went, but this will be the third time in there. LET ME TANK BOSSES!!!).
I dont have threat problems, and no one is really able to pull off me unless its a huge pull and the dps goes balls to the wall on mobs I still haven't hit much yet. Maybe its my gear? I'm still a bit confused on certian stats. I feel a bit low on the overall avoidance table. Looking at my numbers, its nothing terrible and healers never seem to have trouble/complaints, just feel a bit undergeared on avoidance.
I was all excited to try it out at 4H during my last Naxx Run and had the awesome bad luck to get a Resisted twice in a row.
Not here.
But I don't let the other tank taunt until I've gotten hold of the first one. So if I have to, I bust out the multi-taunt still.
Same thing happened to me the first time I used it. Our regular taunt is all glyphed up to be reliable, and this one isn't. We're just used to having a dependable taunt. For that reason, it's still the #2 taunt in my bag of tricks.
Also, killed Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad last night. That was cool, though not as hard as I thought it would be. I didn't think we'd learn both in one night.
Naxx10 needs to cough up some trash loot. We've got a couple of wands and nothing else. That's bullshit.
I discovered weds night that it's not very reliable for picking up adds at long range. Generally if I was tagging them with a taunt at long range, the taunt portion isn't lasting long enough and the damage from it isn't enough to keep them on me and not running after a healer before they get halfway to where I'm tanking/kiting the pack.
While the damage per cast of DS could potentially be greater than CS. CS still provides the higher DPS per cast, so in that case, you should still prioritize CS over DS.
Its not a huge difference, but your dps classes should all know the approximate length of the fight which means they can time their cds around a use of hero in the last 60 seconds of the fight. It may be easier since everyone can just blow their cds whenever, but the fact that several classes have significant dps gains sub 20% means that your probably losing dps overall. The only downside I see is that there is potential for classes to lose the use of a fraction of a cooldowns use since using it at the beginning allows everything to line up perfectly, but it seems like that would be less of a dps loss than missing the 20% window.
I'm not quite following this logic - It would seem to me that the higher overall damage move should be prioritized first, and the point that Divine Storm procs a dot on crit and CS doesn't seems pretty valid to me once you have 2-pice T7. They're both instant, so the damage-per-GCD would be superior for DS. CS may be a greater overall part of your damage because of its shorter cooldown, but not more damage per attack.
Just Some Dude has it right. CS ends up looking like a higher part of your overall damage, but that's because it has:
a) shorter cooldown
b) Righteous Vengeance DoT gets listed as it's own damage, rather than being attributed to DS
You still end up doing more dps prioritizing DS over CS. Though it also depends completely on the 2pc set bonus (10% more DS damage) and partially on having a high enough crit rate to make RV shine. My current rotation to start a fight is Judge, DS, CS/Cons, Cons/CS, Judge, then the next time around CS will clip DS in order to get both off without clipping Judge. This cycle has produced an excellent dps gain, but wouldn't be quite as viable without the 4pc reduction in cooldown on Judgement.
CS: 121 / 6 = 20.16
DS: (110 + 40) / 10 = 15
even with 2pc bonus and DS crits 100% of the time, it still does less dps.
We can argue this point all day to be honest, and both of us will probably think they are right. I've seen the differences in recount, I constantly experiment and try new things to maximize my dps, and this is what I've found works. If you want to believe different go for it, it won't impact me in the slightest.
There was a "discussion" about this before, where one side was arguing Judgement always comes first, and the other side stating that doing so causes Crusader Stike to basically have the same CD as judgement since you are forcing it to the back of the line.
What's the verdict?
Right now what I am doing is opening with judgement, immediately crusader striking and then doing DS, when the cooldowns are up, I then hold off on judgement for about .5 seconds and crusader strike first, immediately following it up with a judgement.
If I time it right, I can usually get another crusader strike in, and then DS, then back to Judgement. After that it all falls apart.
Also, what's the accepted glyph setup for non PvP ret pallies these days?
as for glyph, Judgement, CS, Cons.
CS glyph can be changed to HoW glyph is you want.
Edit: regarding the delaying CS thing
I always take EJ stuff with a grain of salt, because in the world where they practice their math-fu they always have 0 latency. Since Judgement is an 8s CD and CS is 6, Judgement comes off cooldown 8s after you start, and CS comes off cooldown at (1.5+6) 7.5s, so it would go first the second time around, and you don't clash for a while. Therefore there's no problem with effectively adding another 2s CD to CS, because it doesn't happen that way. In reality with some latency, you won't always get the CS off within that half second window and they'll clash.
As for glyphs, I'm using:
Major,
Consecration
Judgement
Crusader Strike
Minor,
Sense Undead
Might (for my own convenience)
CS
Judgement
Consecrate
Minor:
Might
Sense Undead
Wisdom (we often only have two pallies and the other does kings, so I do wis on the two of us then might myself)
And to respond to Wavecrasher, I prioritize Judge over everything, and never delay it (unless recoil will kill me) or clip its global. My personal rotation is pretty long, and I can't recall all of it off the top of my head, but is close to J, DS, CS/Cons(depends on mob numbers), Cons/CS, J, exo/holy wrath, CS, DS, J, Cons then comes a few seconds of just hitting abilities as the pop off cooldown making sure not to clip Judgement, then start at beginning again. Pretty painless and very dependent on the fact that I have a 7 sec recast on Judgement instead of 8 sec. Really just practice, I don't even think anymore about any of my abilities, I just know when they are cycling up and I'm ready to hit the right ones. Run tons of instances when you can, wail on training dummies till you hate em, whatever it takes to have an internal clock on the majority of your abilities. And as Just Some Dude mentioned, some of the cooldowns etc change if your latency is shitty as hell.
So long as you prioritize Judgement over everything else and never clip it, the only truly important thing is to never waste cooldowns. You should almost always have an ability ready to go as soon as the global refreshes. Now with AW back off the global this is slightly less true, and on Non-Exo capable mobs this will also be not completely true, but for the most part I'm always using a global cooldown for something.
You use it regardless, as it's a pretty significant DPS boost.
And in regards to EJ's numbers. I recommend using their advice in a general sense more than anything. It's a good rule of thumb, but not always accurate. When the expansion first hit EJ still had people leading off fights with CS to "make the rotation better" (and yes I see the irony in that since part of my reasoning for DS>CS on first rotation is smoothing the rotation) while I was ignoring that advice and doing my rotation with Judge first. Lo and behold they later theory-crafted that Judgement should almost always have priority over everything with the exception being extreme aoe or risk of death from blood kickback. So while I have been called a dick earlier in this thread and people continue to doubt my info, I will say that I run a freakish amount of instances, and I test everything before I pass it on to others as advice. Take it how you will.
cc?
wat
Otherwise excellent start to gearing. You will likely have that Titansteel Destroyer for a long time, go ahead and slap at least an 85 atk enchant to it.
Also, you don't have to be so dedicated to hit cap. Hit is important, and you probably shouldn't drop under 6.5%, but strength is ret pallies greatest friend. If you need it, remember you can always grab the +20hit enchant for your gloves.