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[WoW] Rogues - Or how I stopped worrying and learned to facestab

RamiRami Registered User regular
edited October 2009 in MMO Extravaganza
Rogues assemble!

Feel free to talk about being a rogue in world of warcraft. Questions will usually be met with answers and a dose of cynicism.

What is a rogue?

A rogue is an underhand, balls to the wall damage dealer who fights fast and dies young. Rogues can't take much punishment, but they make up for it by dishing out plenty of their own and controlling the fight to their advantage. They can also stealth, much to the dismay of opponents, rendering them invsible unless the enemy passes a spot check.

Rogues fight with two weapons, and use swords, daggers, maces or fist weapons. For ranged attacks they favour throwing weapons. Rogues use energy to power their special attacks, it starts off full and regenerates at a rate of 10 energy per second. This means rogue excel at long fights since they will never run out of power.

Control?

While rogues don't have much in the way of real CC, they are adept at locking down a single opponent, leaving them impotent as your tear them apart. Rogues can sap, stun, blind, gouge and vanish into thin air to keep the flow of battle in their favour.

How to kill the mans?

Rogue combat is split into three sections; openers, combos, and finishers.

Openers also function as combos, but can only be used while stealthed. These powerful abilities help to start the battle on the rogues' terms, and include ambushing for some large upfront damage, a firm punch below the belt to temporarily stun, or garrotting to prevent spellcasting and deal damage over time. Non-combat abilities include sapping to 'sleep' the target for up to 45 seconds, and picking pockets for loose change or sometimes a gem.

Combos make up the main combat abilities. They award combo points, which stack up to 5 and are used to pull off finishers. Sword, mace and fist weapon rogues will usually rely on sinister strike to deal swift damage and rack up combo points. Dagger rogues will utilise the hard hitting but critical strike dependant backstab, or the much improved Mutilate; in which you stab your opponent in the face with two daggers at the same time.

Other combo moves include gouge, a temporary disorient, and haemorrhage; a cheaper but slightly weaker version of SS that also increases damage taken by the afflicted target.

Finisher strength varies on the number of combo points you currently have, using them up in the process. These include a lengthy stun, a large amount of instant damage, opening a wound to bleed for damage over time, lowering your opponents armour, throwing a blade with with precision to finish off a fleeing foe, or increasing your attack speed by 30%.

Other rogues abilities include temporarility raising your dodge rate by 50%, raising your speed by 70%, removing all magic debuffs and giving you 90% magic resistance and kicking a caster in the mouth to interrupt spell casting

Poisons

Poisons are a unique tool in a rogue's arsenal, and while unfortunatly you can't slip some arsenic into Illidan's porridge, you can coat your weapons to deliver a little extra string.

Instant Poison: Delivers instant damage on strike.
Deadly Poison: A stacking poison that deals damage over time.
Crippling Poison: Slows the afflicted to 30% movement speed.
Mind Numbing Poison: Slows casting speed by 60%.
Wound Poison: Reduces healing effects by 50%.

You can also shiv, expending energy to instantly strike with your offhand weapon with a 100% chance to proc the poison on your blade.


[More to come]

Latest WOTLK abilities/talents.

Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
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Rami on
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Posts

  • RamiRami Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    So the latest beta build reveals zero buffs and a nerf to expose weakness, 6% down from 9%.

    Starting to get worried over combat being useable by release.

    Rami on
    Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
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  • HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Do they have the patch notes up? Can someone copy/paste the rogue notes, por favor?

    Halfmex on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I find some small measure of hillarity in that Raiding may go from "lawl mutilate go respec combat nub" to "lawl combat go respec mutilate nub" in the space of one patch.

    Not to be a dick, but further hilarity; banking a warglaive in the name of hauling out a pair of daggers.

    Embarassing: dagger skill isn't 350. >.>

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • RamiRami Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Halfmex wrote: »
    Do they have the patch notes up? Can someone copy/paste the rogue notes, por favor?

    For the latest beta build?

    If so then the only change is above, expose weakness now only grants +6% damage to special attacks.

    Otherwise, you can see the latest move list and talents here.

    Rami on
    Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
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  • HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Rami wrote: »
    Halfmex wrote: »
    Do they have the patch notes up? Can someone copy/paste the rogue notes, por favor?

    For the latest beta build?

    If so then the only change is above, expose weakness now only grants +6% damage to special attacks.

    Otherwise, you can see the latest move list and talents here.
    Wow, that's the only change that rogues got on this push? That's pretty lame. Hopefully they'll do another push on Friday.

    Halfmex on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The way I see it, you win some and you lose some. If that's all we got hit with on a 'nerf pass', I'm happy. Maybe the next one will be an awesome "buff pass", maybe we'll get hit so hard with the nerf bat that we need to report to a battered gamers shelter. Only time shall tell.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Yeah, true. After the ass-reaming that assassination took that last patch (and it's still great, just saying), I should be thankful they didn't revert mutilate to being positional again.

    Halfmex on
  • shadowaneshadowane Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Focused Attacks got changed too I think. 66% instead of 100%.

    edit; May just be an error on mmo-champion though.

    shadowane on
    Rich on Beer - I talk about drinking beer. You read about it.
  • RamiRami Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    No it's still 100% for 3 energy.

    Rami on
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  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    It's not all bad. Opportunity got a buff specifically for Mutilate.

    Wavechaser on
    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • dylmandylman Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I'm liking Unfair Advantage on the PTR, combined with the Evasion glyph that gives 5 seconds extra duration and BF we can do some respectable AoE on a fairly short cooldown.

    Also I can't decide between the new 60 Haste trinket and the 120 AP one to replace my PvP trinket.

    dylman on
  • mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I can't believe I resubbed....again, but thanks to the fact that transfers from PvE to PvP are possible me and my friend have planned on playing through Northrend together on his PvP server, him with his Druid and me with my Rogue. My first thought was my Warlock (my only 70) but I like the idea of playing dual stealthers.

    Only issue is I need to get him from 66 to 70. I had him specced Mutilate just to try it out (he was combat before) but I'm not sure I want to go with it because of the positional requirements.

    Thinking about going Shadowstep, but I've never done it before. I really, really, really don't want to level as combat though. I've gone down that road before.

    mynameisguido on
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  • dylmandylman Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Mutilate's positional requirements are being removed in the 3.0 patch coming in the next few weeks.

    Also, Shadowstep is fun. :)

    dylman on
  • mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    dylman wrote: »
    Mutilate's positional requirements are being removed in the 3.0 patch coming in the next few weeks.

    Also, Shadowstep is fun. :)

    Oh yeah, forgot about that. I'll probably go Shadowstep since I've never tried it and because I have terrible daggers.

    Once I manage to get some not terrible daggers and 3.0 hits I'll go mutilate because even with the positional req it's a ton of fun.

    mynameisguido on
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  • RamiRami Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Mutilates positional requirement is irrelevent when levelling to be honest.

    CS -> mutilate -> KS -> mutilate x2 = dead mob

    + you have gouge and just shiv deadly poison when you're facing them for envenom

    Rami on
    Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
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  • HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Rami wrote: »
    Mutilates positional requirement is irrelevent when levelling to be honest.

    CS -> mutilate -> KS -> mutilate x2 = dead mob

    + you have gouge and just shiv deadly poison when you're facing them for envenom
    Oh how I wish that were true. I leveled 60-70 as Mutilate and it was fucking maddening.

    1. Latency - There'd be plenty of times when the server would just be so gosh darn certain that I wasn't behind the mob I was attacking, even though I was. So trying to figure out what the server wanted in terms of where I should stand got old fast, and usually it just meant I wasted my cheap shot/kidney shot and the mob would turn to face me. So I'd Gouge, unless...

    2. Gouge/Kidney Shot was parried/blocked, which it often was. Literally there were so many fights where BOTH fucking abilities would be parried/blocked, and you'd stand there going toe-to-toe with the mob, so yeah, time to Sinister Strike (you don't get Shiv until 70, so that didn't help out any) the mob until you built up enough combo points to try kidney shot again (and pray it didn't get blocked, dodged or parried).

    Oh yes, also, there'd be plenty of times when Deadly Poison would tick juuuust as you were trying to get back behind the mob; bye-bye Gouge, thanks for nothing!

    So yeah, Mutilate's positional requirement during leveling is probably one of the biggest reasons that I pushed for it to be gone, because it was ridiculous. The only time it wasn't a problem was during raids, because the mobs aren't facing you anyway.

    Halfmex on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Halfmex wrote: »
    Rami wrote: »
    Mutilates positional requirement is irrelevent when levelling to be honest.

    CS -> mutilate -> KS -> mutilate x2 = dead mob

    + you have gouge and just shiv deadly poison when you're facing them for envenom
    Oh how I wish that were true. I leveled 60-70 as Mutilate and it was fucking maddening.

    1. Latency - There'd be plenty of times when the server would just be so gosh darn certain that I wasn't behind the mob I was attacking, even though I was. So trying to figure out what the server wanted in terms of where I should stand got old fast, and usually it just meant I wasted my cheap shot/kidney shot and the mob would turn to face me. So I'd Gouge, unless...

    2. Gouge/Kidney Shot was parried/blocked, which it often was. Literally there were so many fights where BOTH fucking abilities would be parried/blocked, and you'd stand there going toe-to-toe with the mob, so yeah, time to Sinister Strike (you don't get Shiv until 70, so that didn't help out any) the mob until you built up enough combo points to try kidney shot again (and pray it didn't get blocked, dodged or parried).

    Oh yes, also, there'd be plenty of times when Deadly Poison would tick juuuust as you were trying to get back behind the mob; bye-bye Gouge, thanks for nothing!

    So yeah, Mutilate's positional requirement during leveling is probably one of the biggest reasons that I pushed for it to be gone, because it was ridiculous. The only time it wasn't a problem was during raids, because the mobs aren't facing you anyway.

    I never had latency problems, but point 2 was HUGE. Honestly, if your KS landed and Deadly Poison got applied before CS was up, you were golden. You'd blow through mobs like nothing. The minute one of those didn't happen though, it got annoying FAST.

    You missed another though:

    3) Groups: Seriously, staying behind mobs in groups is a HUGE pain in the ass.

    And god help you on fights like that last in Mana Tombs. I mean, what counts as the "back" of a fucking sphere!

    shryke on
  • HalfmexHalfmex I mock your value system You also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    shryke wrote: »
    You missed another though:

    3) Groups: Seriously, staying behind mobs in groups is a HUGE pain in the ass.

    And god help you on fights like that last in Mana Tombs. I mean, what counts as the "back" of a fucking sphere!
    Ah yes, and the Orbs from Curator in Kara. Holy shit I hated that fight as Mutilate.

    Halfmex on
  • ScroffusScroffus Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Yeah curator was annoying. First the balls are a bitch to hit and then you finally get to curator and he's poison immune :(

    Or at least he was long ago, are mechanicals still poison immune (its been a long time since I payed attention to anything mechanical while raiding)?

    Scroffus on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Scroffus wrote: »
    Or at least he was long ago, are mechanicals still poison immune (its been a long time since I payed attention to anything mechanical while raiding)?

    I don't think there's anything in the game that's poison or bleed immune anymore. I mean, there probably is, but really, the list would have to be absolutely tiny.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • DissociaterDissociater Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I'm thinking of making a new rogue orc. My highest rogue is in the high 50s, but is undead. I just like orcs better. I've leveled up rogues so many times, but each time I quit. My first was a human rogue to 40 (my first character ever). I quit him because I switched to horde shortly after he hit 40. I didn't want to make another rogue because I already did it once to 40 and didn't want to do it again.

    A year went by and I figured I wouldn't mind doing it again, and some friends of mine were rerolling alliance on a new server, so I made a dwarf rogue. Got him to 40 and once again realized that I just don't like playing alliance.

    So another year goes by and I want to give it another go, this time horde side. I already had a level 25 undead rogue and I didn't want to start from level 1 again. Got him to where he is now (high 50s) and just can't bring myself to enjoy playing a zombie - all of my favorite characters are orcs, 70 warrior, 70 warlock, 65 hunter, 66 shaman.

    It's been about 4-5 months since I've played WoW, and I want to reactivate before WotLK comes out so I don't miss any server wide events like I did when TBC came out.

    I guess this long stupid post comes down to a question, how fast is it to level another character these days?

    Dissociater on
  • MayGodHaveMercyMayGodHaveMercy Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Scroffus wrote: »
    Or at least he was long ago, are mechanicals still poison immune (its been a long time since I payed attention to anything mechanical while raiding)?

    I don't think there's anything in the game that's poison or bleed immune anymore. I mean, there probably is, but really, the list would have to be absolutely tiny.

    Here's the list of Poison Immune raid bosses -
      Hydross

    MayGodHaveMercy on
    XBL: Mercy XXVI - Steam: Mercy_XXVI - PSN: Mercy XXVI
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Between the quest exp increase and the exp requirements per level being reduced (20-60 and 30-60, I can never quite recall which is which), not bloody long.

    Manage to convince someone to do the 'refer a friend' [strike]pyramid scheme[/strike] deal, and you sort of stumble into a level 60 character.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • SlagmireSlagmire Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Rogue WotLK Question: Anybody know if the bonus Imp SnD grants is applied to Cut to the Chase?

    Slagmire on
  • MayGodHaveMercyMayGodHaveMercy Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I imagine it refreshes the full duration.

    Imp SnD is an unnecessary crutch for a Mut build, to be honest.

    MayGodHaveMercy on
    XBL: Mercy XXVI - Steam: Mercy_XXVI - PSN: Mercy XXVI
  • DissociaterDissociater Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Between the quest exp increase and the exp requirements per level being reduced (20-60 and 30-60, I can never quite recall which is which), not bloody long.

    Manage to convince someone to do the 'refer a friend' [strike]pyramid scheme[/strike] deal, and you sort of stumble into a level 60 character.

    If someone refers me back into the game (I've been gone a few months now) will I get the triple exp, or is it only if I refer someone?

    Dissociater on
  • SlagmireSlagmire Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I imagine it refreshes the full duration.

    Imp SnD is an unnecessary crutch for a Mut build, to be honest.

    If it was a five point talent, I would most certainly agree with you; at two points though, on tier 2, I can live with spending that for 50% longer speed when it comes to PvE. PvP is a different story as always though.

    Slagmire on
  • RamiRami Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Imp SnD is an absolute waste of 2 points in a mutilate build from 3.0 onwards. If you aren't using envenom once every 21 seconds you're doing something seriously wrong.

    Rami on
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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Forar wrote: »
    Between the quest exp increase and the exp requirements per level being reduced (20-60 and 30-60, I can never quite recall which is which), not bloody long.

    Manage to convince someone to do the 'refer a friend' [strike]pyramid scheme[/strike] deal, and you sort of stumble into a level 60 character.

    If someone refers me back into the game (I've been gone a few months now) will I get the triple exp, or is it only if I refer someone?

    I believe in the case of an existing account, you need to refer someone else (a new account).

    It's more based around getting more/new people into the game (with a side bonus of some addicts just temporarily creating a whole new account to alt / boost exp / get a mount with). Getting older players back into the grasp of the monkey (which then perches firmly upon their back) is more the realm of the Ressurection Scroll.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • SlagmireSlagmire Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Rami wrote: »
    Imp SnD is an absolute waste of 2 points in a mutilate build from 3.0 onwards. If you aren't using envenom once every 21 seconds you're doing something seriously wrong.

    Seriously? You're not doing Expose Armors and Ruptures in your cycle when PvEing now in 3.0? Doing both of those (if memory serves properly) takes a little more then 21 seconds if you're five-pointing them between envenoms doesn't it?

    Slagmire on
  • RamiRami Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I wasn't aware anyone used expose armour for anything PVE related.

    With the poison talents envenom will outdamage rupture, which you would probably only use if you didn't have 5 deadly poison stacks yet and still had plenty of time on SnD left.

    Rami on
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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Improved Expose Armour is used pretty frequently in my raids, but with the change to how buffs/debuffs stack or don't stack, I'm not sure if that will remain true in 3.0.

    I am, in fact, the standard "EA Bitch", but it's a title I place upon myself, usually because despite my skill, a pair of paired warglaive rogues are hard dps to top.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Rami wrote: »
    Mutilates positional requirement is irrelevent when levelling to be honest.

    CS -> mutilate -> KS -> mutilate x2 = dead mob

    + you have gouge and just shiv deadly poison when you're facing them for envenom

    Hahahahaha no.

    Wavechaser on
    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • RamiRami Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Really? But it over writes expose armour. That said, we've always had a warrior MT so it's been quite important.
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Rami wrote: »
    Mutilates positional requirement is irrelevent when levelling to be honest.

    CS -> mutilate -> KS -> mutilate x2 = dead mob

    + you have gouge and just shiv deadly poison when you're facing them for envenom

    Hahahahaha no.

    It's what I do, and it works.

    Rami on
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  • ScroffusScroffus Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Rami wrote: »
    Really? But it over writes expose armour. That said, we've always had a warrior MT so it's been quite important.
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Rami wrote: »
    Mutilates positional requirement is irrelevent when levelling to be honest.

    CS -> mutilate -> KS -> mutilate x2 = dead mob

    + you have gouge and just shiv deadly poison when you're facing them for envenom

    Hahahahaha no.

    It's what I do, and it works.

    I do this at 70 and it works most of the time, mainly because of gear. I have enouth hit and expertise to bring the chance of not hitting down to a fairly small % and even if it does I still have plenty of damage to fall back on.

    That said when you're leveling its a fair bit diffrent since your failure rate is a few % higher and you don't do as much damage.

    Also I never used deadly when soloing with mutilate, crippling + mind numbing always seemed better since it didn't break gouge/emergency blinds. Also since I'm on a pvp server it was even more useful.

    Scroffus on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Rami wrote: »
    Really? But it over writes expose armour. That said, we've always had a warrior MT so it's been quite important.

    I assume you mean 'it over writes sunder armour'? And yes, it does, but unless I've been misled, they still get the threat from Sunder/Devistate's Sunder effect, the debuff just doesn't go up.

    I may be wrong, but we also use bear/paladin tanks a fair deal, where it just isn't an issue.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    Rami wrote: »
    Really? But it over writes expose armour. That said, we've always had a warrior MT so it's been quite important.
    Wavechaser wrote: »
    Rami wrote: »
    Mutilates positional requirement is irrelevent when levelling to be honest.

    CS -> mutilate -> KS -> mutilate x2 = dead mob

    + you have gouge and just shiv deadly poison when you're facing them for envenom

    Hahahahaha no.

    It's what I do, and it works.

    So, you never get your KS or CS resisted? You don't have a deadly poison up on the mob to break your gouge?

    Resists on stuns are a very very common thing while leveling, one resisted stun on a mob absolutely and completely ruins a mutilate cycle. All of the sudden you now have to time your gouge not only with deadly poison ticks, but also to make sure you have enough energy to immediately Mutilate once you have gouged, so you have to sit there waiting for energy to come back in order to get another mutilate off.

    Then you have to sit there and SINISTER STRIKELOL a mob with your fucking daggers because your rotation just got destroyed.

    Non-position Mutilate is the opposite of "completely irrelevant" while leveling.

    Wavechaser on
    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • RamiRami Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I use coldblood eviscerate/envenom if a KS ever fails. Also I stick to instant + wound pre-shiv.

    You can socket some +hit pretty early on into BC to make up for fighting mobs at a higher level, can probably get some expertise from somewhere too. Granted if your gear sucks it won't be as effective. It also wouldn't hav ebeen an issue in WOTLK since you'd already have shiv.

    Rami on
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  • WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    I cannot believe i'm having this argument right now.

    Wavechaser on
    PierceNeck wrote: »
    People still do the anal thing?
  • ScroffusScroffus Registered User regular
    edited September 2008
    The positional requirement of mutilate makes it more of a pain to level with than other (non-positional) builds. I don't think you can really argue against that.

    So how about them backstabs eh guys?

    Scroffus on
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