The whole "isn't meant to be an attack" thing is sort of undermined by the fact that it's been one like since the game was released or some shit. The debuff goes away far too quickly for you to use it and then start spamming something else. Shit, it disappears damned near instantly in 5-mans.
Would be cool if they made it a debuff that got applied on every attack. Sinister Striking hemo would be fun.
devs have stated that hemo isn't meant to be the main attack, only to provide a damage increasing debuff. e: which is why it's damage compared to SS( i am assuming specced and glyphed) is so bad.
I really don't like sub anymore, combat never did quite pull me in and I don't have a single dagger. With the expansion coming out in a few days, I am truly screwed. Anyone know of any Wotlk dagger quest rewards/drops I should be going for?
edit: or i guess any possible quest rewards from outland? I am really desparate i may even go buy a couple ced's carvers
There'll probably be a couple of dagger rewards in Northrend. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
devs have stated that hemo isn't meant to be the main attack, only to provide a damage increasing debuff. e: which is why it's damage compared to SS( i am assuming specced and glyphed) is so bad.
I really don't like sub anymore, combat never did quite pull me in and I don't have a single dagger. With the expansion coming out in a few days, I am truly screwed. Anyone know of any Wotlk dagger quest rewards/drops I should be going for?
edit: or i guess any possible quest rewards from outland? I am really desparate i may even go buy a couple ced's carvers
Honestly you'd be fine with Ced's Carvers until you upgrade your daggers within minutes of being in wotlk zones.
Mutilate really is the shit right now, and a lot of Rogues are in the same boat as you with the hemo nerfs, myself included. I'll miss hemo, but at the same time, i'm pretty excited that daggers are viable (and fun) again.
Honestly you'd be fine with Ced's Carvers until you upgrade your daggers within minutes of being in wotlk zones.
Mutilate really is the shit right now, and a lot of Rogues are in the same boat as you with the hemo nerfs, myself included. I'll miss hemo, but at the same time, i'm pretty excited that daggers are viable (and fun) again.
For the record I just spent a couple minutes looking over quest rewards in both starting zones.
I resisted daggers being the new direction, I was assassination up to level 50-something. I hated it so much I quit playing my rogue.
If it really is as fun and viable as everyone says, I will spec mut as soon as I get two daggers, especially if combat and sub continue to be humdrum boring. Hunger for blood sounds annoying, but if it is anything like old Rampage I can get used to it.
Honestly you'd be fine with Ced's Carvers until you upgrade your daggers within minutes of being in wotlk zones.
Mutilate really is the shit right now, and a lot of Rogues are in the same boat as you with the hemo nerfs, myself included. I'll miss hemo, but at the same time, i'm pretty excited that daggers are viable (and fun) again.
For the record I just spent a couple minutes looking over quest rewards in both starting zones.
I resisted daggers being the new direction, I was assassination up to level 50-something. I hated it so much I quit playing my rogue.
If it really is as fun and viable as everyone says, I will spec mut as soon as I get two daggers, especially if combat and sub continue to be humdrum boring. Hunger for blood sounds annoying, but if it is anything like old Rampage I can get used to it.
I would agree with you, except that Rampage is only 1 charge, where HfB is three. I've played both old school fury warrior and the new mutilate with HfB and I have to say, HfB is about 16,000 times more annoying.
It's 5 MH and 5 OH attacks in 2.5 seconds whilst preventing you from using any abilities for it's duration.
That sure is a reason to hate it.
Look, I can partially quote, too!
Read the rest of his post. The annoyance of KS isn't so much the 'you no do abilities nao', but that the targeting of the ability is royally borked when it targets dead people, to say nothing of how disorienting it is.
I did read it, and Blizzard has acknowledged it as a problem they'll try to address. Just because he typed that doesn't mean he didn't type the part I quoted. And I've seen that same complaint from, like, everyone who hates KS. What the hell ability do you need to use so badly in less than 2.5 seconds after you use KS?
Also, it's bad that rogues now have two abilities abbreviated KS. Now that is a valid complaint.
So for Mutilate PvE what speed on my daggers should I be looking for? Is it the same basic formula of slow MH/fast OH, or does Mutilate change that?
Welllllll apparently you want the fastest daggers possible for both hands right now because of poisons, but blizzard stated they are changing this, so I wouldn't gear around it.
Slow/Fast is always good, you can go Slow/Slow if you want more PvP burst though.
Fast will hep your energy regen too, cause of Focused Attacks.
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0
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited November 2008
Yeah, the devs fucked up with the whole 'scaling poisons' deal, so fast/fast is ideal for straight DPS. However, slow/slow is still fine and the difference between the two is apparently not significant, as long as you're not in long fights (ie. raid bosses), and I'm sure it'll be fixed before people are raiding again anyway.
Well, I hope it is.
In any case, I'm going slow/slow for larger mutilate crits and it's working like a charm for me.
They never DON'T have a trinket on. It's so annoying.
I'm fine with humantrinket it as it doesn't affect my play style, arena and BG. I could see how it would be annoying if I was leveling or spent a lot of time ganking.
I would agree with you, except that Rampage is only 1 charge, where HfB is three. I've played both old school fury warrior and the new mutilate with HfB and I have to say, HfB is about 16,000 times more annoying.
It reads a lot like old rampage, which was very difficult to keep track of at first but I figured it out. It may even be a little easier since against warriors and feral druids you would be using it on purpose. The only issue I have is there may be energy issues, which isn't so bad considering I got screwed on rampage because of its rage cost AND it's reliance on a crit.
Once you get it up to a three stack you only need to refresh it once every 30 seconds, Or does each stack have its own separate timer?
Anyway, is there any word on if it will be changed?
On a separate note has anyone got the vibe that a lot of classes got buffed VS pre-3.0 rogues and THEN rogues got nerfed? Shadowstep on roots is one example, I can't kill a mage to save my life.
So for Mutilate PvE what speed on my daggers should I be looking for? Is it the same basic formula of slow MH/fast OH, or does Mutilate change that?
Welllllll apparently you want the fastest daggers possible for both hands right now because of poisons, but blizzard stated they are changing this, so I wouldn't gear around it.
Slow/Fast is always good, you can go Slow/Slow if you want more PvP burst though.
So I guess weapon speed is totally up to play style. Fast procs poisons more often, but slow provides larger instant hits which translates to better burst damage.
So for Mutilate PvE what speed on my daggers should I be looking for? Is it the same basic formula of slow MH/fast OH, or does Mutilate change that?
Welllllll apparently you want the fastest daggers possible for both hands right now because of poisons, but blizzard stated they are changing this, so I wouldn't gear around it.
Slow/Fast is always good, you can go Slow/Slow if you want more PvP burst though.
So I guess weapon speed is totally up to play style. Fast procs poisons more often, but slow provides larger instant hits which translates to better burst damage.
Pretty much. For now (i.e., leveling), I would just use whatever does more damage/has better stats and not really worry about speeds and average damage per hit.
Once you get it up to a three stack you only need to refresh it once every 30 seconds, Or does each stack have its own separate timer?
Anyway, is there any word on if it will be changed?
Only needs to be refereshed once every 30 seconds once you have it to three stacks.
And yep, GC stated that the devs "aren't happy" with the way HfB works now and they will be looking to change it, but not to expect anything "before Wrath ships". However they also said that they weren't planning on doing much class tweaking between now and when people hit 80 and start raiding, because that's going to be their litmus test for what works and what doesn't.
So in any case, don't expect it to change any time this year, likely not until Feb or March next year at the earliest.
It reads a lot like old rampage, which was very difficult to keep track of at first but I figured it out. It may even be a little easier since against warriors and feral druids you would be using it on purpose. The only issue I have is there may be energy issues, which isn't so bad considering I got screwed on rampage because of its rage cost AND it's reliance on a crit.
Once you get it up to a three stack you only need to refresh it once every 30 seconds, Or does each stack have its own separate timer?
It is Rampage, with a different effect. And no, it's only one timer for the buff, regardless of how many stacks you have up. Once in combat, it is pretty much Rampage for Rogues.
They never DON'T have a trinket on. It's so annoying.
I'm fine with humantrinket it as it doesn't affect my play style, arena and BG. I could see how it would be annoying if I was leveling or spent a lot of time ganking.
I've been doing pretty much both those last two on my Rogue. He's 68. I dunno if I want to get to 70 before WotLK hits because I can just go to Northrend ANYWAY at 68 and probably get better exp + loots. (I loves me my Enhancement Shaman, but damned if Rogues aren't crazy fun in their own way.)
Usually when I get jumped during my first instinct is to Blind and then either 1) Run away or 2) Run away for the two minutes it takes for Blind to refresh, then come back and stunlock. Against humans that doesn't really work.
Yeah yeah, I know, Rogue QQing about not auto-winning. But still, it just crushes your hopes and dreams to see that Warrior break out of Blind instantly and catch you before his Vanishing-denying bleeds run out.
It is Rampage, with a different effect. And no, it's only one timer for the buff, regardless of how many stacks you have up. Once in combat, it is pretty much Rampage for Rogues.
Doesn't sound that terrible, I think wavechaser has a tendency for hyperbole BUT I will definately have to try it out. But blizz DID remove the need to press Rampage so the idea that it even is in game as it is now is pretty ridiculous.
It is Rampage, with a different effect. And no, it's only one timer for the buff, regardless of how many stacks you have up. Once in combat, it is pretty much Rampage for Rogues.
Doesn't sound that terrible, I think wavechaser has a tendency for hyperbole BUT I will definately have to try it out. But blizz DID remove the need to press Rampage so the idea that it even is in game as it is now is pretty ridiculous.
Most people hate Hunger for Blood. It's not just Chaser, by any means.
That said, Hunger for Blood is awesome and anyone who disagrees is obviously some sort of heretic.
It is Rampage, with a different effect. And no, it's only one timer for the buff, regardless of how many stacks you have up. Once in combat, it is pretty much Rampage for Rogues.
Doesn't sound that terrible, I think wavechaser has a tendency for hyperbole BUT I will definately have to try it out. But blizz DID remove the need to press Rampage so the idea that it even is in game as it is now is pretty ridiculous.
Most people hate Hunger for Blood. It's not just Chaser, by any means.
That said, Hunger for Blood is awesome and anyone who disagrees is obviously some sort of heretic.
The fact it's so incredibly ridiculously awesome is part of what makes it so easy to hate, though. :P
Like I've said before, I don't just hate it, my entire raid that has sound effects enabled hates it for the goddamn noise that plays every time I refresh it between pulls -- which is, basically, every 3 seconds when actually prepping for a pull, so that my energy bar is always as close to whole as possible.
It's incredibly fucking annoying and once in a while you'll try to refresh it while it's at 1 or 0sec and lag will ruin it and it'll fall off and you'll be massively gimped and pissed, but, hey
9% damage increase for one talent point ... who's to complain? :x
It is Rampage, with a different effect. And no, it's only one timer for the buff, regardless of how many stacks you have up. Once in combat, it is pretty much Rampage for Rogues.
Doesn't sound that terrible, I think wavechaser has a tendency for hyperbole BUT I will definately have to try it out. But blizz DID remove the need to press Rampage so the idea that it even is in game as it is now is pretty ridiculous.
Well, ymmv, but i've been pretty honest about HfB, and I think i've pretty accurately represented the majority of our classes opinion on it.
no, the best argument against HfB as-implemented is that those of us who've successfully adjusted to it will never be able to adjust away from hitting our HfB key before a pull, or immediately after we stealth, or frantically every 30 seconds when our internal stopwatches cry out, if you don't refresh it right this goddamn second you are going to suck forever on the rest of this boss
I might as well have just macro'd it to spacebar, at least then this would be unobtrusive
I think the best argument against HfB is that if you get it you also can't get preparation.
There are some really tough decisions for the Rogue class for Mutilate Builds. You have Prep/HfB/5% crit with daggers... the good thing is that there are plenty of options, the bad thing is that.... well, there's plenty of options.
Do you think there's really that much versatility for raid DPS at 80 as Mutilate? You need to push at least 10 deep in Combat for the 5% to-hit and to-Poison, and then picking up all 5/5 Relentless Strikes from tier 1 Subtlety also seems like a given to me. You get five floater points, and I don't see any combination of 54/10/7 (HfB,Combat,Opportunity+RS) or 51/10/10 (Whatever in Sub) that could edge out straight 51/15/5.
Not saying that 51/15/5 is the most exciting, but it seems to edge out the others in pure raid DPS output.
EDIT: Actually, 54/10/7 might be competitive too, you get the other +crit talent in deep Assassination and the bonus damage from Opportunity helps shore up the fact Turn the Tables is only boosting your yellow crit chance.
I think the best argument against HfB is that if you get it you also can't get preparation.
There are some really tough decisions for the Rogue class for Mutilate Builds. You have Prep/HfB/5% crit with daggers... the good thing is that there are plenty of options, the bad thing is that.... well, there's plenty of options.
I don't see how any of those could stack up to +9% damage, indefinitely.
Do you think there's really that much versatility for raid DPS at 80 as Mutilate? You need to push at least 10 deep in Combat for the 5% to-hit and to-Poison, and then picking up all 5/5 Relentless Strikes from tier 1 Subtlety also seems like a given to me. You get five floater points, and I don't see any combination of 54/10/7 (HfB,Combat,Opportunity+RS) or 51/10/10 (Whatever in Sub) that could edge out straight 51/15/5.
Not saying that 51/15/5 is the most exciting, but it seems to edge out the others in pure raid DPS output.
For Raid DPS? No. There will almost certainly be one clear cut raid-dps winner cookie-cuttie build out there that min maxers will be required to spec into.
In general though, there are tons of options. For PvP builds you have those who will want Prep, those who will want 5% bonus crit, and those who will want the HfB buffs. For Solo PvE you can go any number of routes and still be damn good.
Compare that to Combat builds, who really won't have much deviation between the three different roles you can play. That is of course assuming they fix Killing Spree.
All I have to say, is thank god for dual specs, Mutilate Rogues are really going to need them.
In terms of a raid environment, I think there will always be ONE certain configuration of talent points and weapons that yield the best DPS. And I am going to put my neck out and say that assassination and daggers aren't part of that configuration.
Until they change poisons and Hunger for Blood, I, on the other hand, would easily bet 1000g or more on 51-point deep Mutilate yielding the most cutthroat DPS, barring some dumb-shit itemization (incredible swords, no daggers, something like that).
Imp Eviscerate (with glyph) and probably wound/wound or wound/mind numb
OR Ruthlessness with wound/deadly, using envenom.
PVP of course.
I really like Evisc right now and envenom doesn't help wound poison procs which I will be using in pvps. It is however a lot harder to dispel a wound/deadly/crippling combo than just a wound / crippling.
I am leaning towards Ruthlessness, so I think I have answered my own question. Not using evisc i could make room for the new vigor glyph too... yeah i think it's settled.
Do you think there's really that much versatility for raid DPS at 80 as Mutilate? You need to push at least 10 deep in Combat for the 5% to-hit and to-Poison, and then picking up all 5/5 Relentless Strikes from tier 1 Subtlety also seems like a given to me. You get five floater points, and I don't see any combination of 54/10/7 (HfB,Combat,Opportunity+RS) or 51/10/10 (Whatever in Sub) that could edge out straight 51/15/5.
Not saying that 51/15/5 is the most exciting, but it seems to edge out the others in pure raid DPS output.
For Raid DPS? No. There will almost certainly be one clear cut raid-dps winner cookie-cuttie build out there that min maxers will be required to spec into.
In general though, there are tons of options. For PvP builds you have those who will want Prep, those who will want 5% bonus crit, and those who will want the HfB buffs. For Solo PvE you can go any number of routes and still be damn good.
Compare that to Combat builds, who really won't have much deviation between the three different roles you can play. That is of course assuming they fix Killing Spree.
All I have to say, is thank god for dual specs, Mutilate Rogues are really going to need them.
I just love how Blizzard made a bunch of changes to all the classes so that "there won't be one specific way to spec to maximize the character." but i'm sure there's people already working on the best cookie-cutters out there. At least we have more than 1 viable spec even if I'm sure someone is hard at work so they can tell us what the one best spec is... I'm just waiting to see if my RLs come 80 read a website with the new "raid specs" on it and tell me i have to be point for point a certain spec... even though they haven't been playing the class and keeping up with the changes/mechanics/whatnot...
Yeah, but now you can try to sway their opinion with really flashy 51-point talents! Ambush something four times in a row! Get stuck in the sky box of The Oculus by Killing Spreeing an airborne mob!
Yeah, but now you can try to sway their opinion with really flashy 51-point talents! Ambush something four times in a row! Get stuck in the sky box of The Oculus by Killing Spreeing an airborne mob!
That looks impressive, right? <.<
Kind of like how a friend of mine KS'd nightbane in his flight form then fell outside of the instance? that's impressive. My guild won't have to worry about me speccing sub based solely on the fact that I'm not going to clear out my shift+2 bar cause that's where all my non-combat stuff is and basically i have no room to move those to make a shadowdance barand i'm too lazy to macro the bar switch... plus i never really liked playing as sub
So, is Hemo actually any good for raids? I mean, just looking at it on paper it seems like it would bring a lot of DPS. Not for yourself, obviously, but 10x Hemo debuff damage has to be good considering it's probably being used up every GCD... Right?
Is this a case of "amigad im not #1 on metres!!!1" or is there something else I'm missing?
Posts
Would be cool if they made it a debuff that got applied on every attack. Sinister Striking hemo would be fun.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
There'll probably be a couple of dagger rewards in Northrend. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Honestly you'd be fine with Ced's Carvers until you upgrade your daggers within minutes of being in wotlk zones.
Mutilate really is the shit right now, and a lot of Rogues are in the same boat as you with the hemo nerfs, myself included. I'll miss hemo, but at the same time, i'm pretty excited that daggers are viable (and fun) again.
For the record I just spent a couple minutes looking over quest rewards in both starting zones.
If anyone else is interested, Borean Tundra seems to have the best dagger rewards, including a blue, http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=38242.
I resisted daggers being the new direction, I was assassination up to level 50-something. I hated it so much I quit playing my rogue.
If it really is as fun and viable as everyone says, I will spec mut as soon as I get two daggers, especially if combat and sub continue to be humdrum boring. Hunger for blood sounds annoying, but if it is anything like old Rampage I can get used to it.
I would agree with you, except that Rampage is only 1 charge, where HfB is three. I've played both old school fury warrior and the new mutilate with HfB and I have to say, HfB is about 16,000 times more annoying.
Also, it's bad that rogues now have two abilities abbreviated KS. Now that is a valid complaint.
Welllllll apparently you want the fastest daggers possible for both hands right now because of poisons, but blizzard stated they are changing this, so I wouldn't gear around it.
Slow/Fast is always good, you can go Slow/Slow if you want more PvP burst though.
Well, I hope it is.
In any case, I'm going slow/slow for larger mutilate crits and it's working like a charm for me.
They never DON'T have a trinket on. It's so annoying.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
I'm fine with humantrinket it as it doesn't affect my play style, arena and BG. I could see how it would be annoying if I was leveling or spent a lot of time ganking.
It reads a lot like old rampage, which was very difficult to keep track of at first but I figured it out. It may even be a little easier since against warriors and feral druids you would be using it on purpose. The only issue I have is there may be energy issues, which isn't so bad considering I got screwed on rampage because of its rage cost AND it's reliance on a crit.
Once you get it up to a three stack you only need to refresh it once every 30 seconds, Or does each stack have its own separate timer?
Anyway, is there any word on if it will be changed?
On a separate note has anyone got the vibe that a lot of classes got buffed VS pre-3.0 rogues and THEN rogues got nerfed? Shadowstep on roots is one example, I can't kill a mage to save my life.
So I guess weapon speed is totally up to play style. Fast procs poisons more often, but slow provides larger instant hits which translates to better burst damage.
Now that beta is over and the game is basically released, I'm back to expecting quarterly patches and long waits to see pressing issues addressed.
And yep, GC stated that the devs "aren't happy" with the way HfB works now and they will be looking to change it, but not to expect anything "before Wrath ships". However they also said that they weren't planning on doing much class tweaking between now and when people hit 80 and start raiding, because that's going to be their litmus test for what works and what doesn't.
So in any case, don't expect it to change any time this year, likely not until Feb or March next year at the earliest.
It is Rampage, with a different effect. And no, it's only one timer for the buff, regardless of how many stacks you have up. Once in combat, it is pretty much Rampage for Rogues.
EDIT: Damnit, Mex.
I've been doing pretty much both those last two on my Rogue. He's 68. I dunno if I want to get to 70 before WotLK hits because I can just go to Northrend ANYWAY at 68 and probably get better exp + loots. (I loves me my Enhancement Shaman, but damned if Rogues aren't crazy fun in their own way.)
Usually when I get jumped during my first instinct is to Blind and then either 1) Run away or 2) Run away for the two minutes it takes for Blind to refresh, then come back and stunlock. Against humans that doesn't really work.
Yeah yeah, I know, Rogue QQing about not auto-winning. But still, it just crushes your hopes and dreams to see that Warrior break out of Blind instantly and catch you before his Vanishing-denying bleeds run out.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Doesn't sound that terrible, I think wavechaser has a tendency for hyperbole BUT I will definately have to try it out. But blizz DID remove the need to press Rampage so the idea that it even is in game as it is now is pretty ridiculous.
Most people hate Hunger for Blood. It's not just Chaser, by any means.
That said, Hunger for Blood is awesome and anyone who disagrees is obviously some sort of heretic.
Like I've said before, I don't just hate it, my entire raid that has sound effects enabled hates it for the goddamn noise that plays every time I refresh it between pulls -- which is, basically, every 3 seconds when actually prepping for a pull, so that my energy bar is always as close to whole as possible.
It's incredibly fucking annoying and once in a while you'll try to refresh it while it's at 1 or 0sec and lag will ruin it and it'll fall off and you'll be massively gimped and pissed, but, hey
9% damage increase for one talent point ... who's to complain? :x
Well, ymmv, but i've been pretty honest about HfB, and I think i've pretty accurately represented the majority of our classes opinion on it.
I might as well have just macro'd it to spacebar, at least then this would be unobtrusive
EDIT: this is tongue-in-cheek but only partly
There are some really tough decisions for the Rogue class for Mutilate Builds. You have Prep/HfB/5% crit with daggers... the good thing is that there are plenty of options, the bad thing is that.... well, there's plenty of options.
Not saying that 51/15/5 is the most exciting, but it seems to edge out the others in pure raid DPS output.
EDIT: Actually, 54/10/7 might be competitive too, you get the other +crit talent in deep Assassination and the bonus damage from Opportunity helps shore up the fact Turn the Tables is only boosting your yellow crit chance.
I don't see how any of those could stack up to +9% damage, indefinitely.
For Raid DPS? No. There will almost certainly be one clear cut raid-dps winner cookie-cuttie build out there that min maxers will be required to spec into.
In general though, there are tons of options. For PvP builds you have those who will want Prep, those who will want 5% bonus crit, and those who will want the HfB buffs. For Solo PvE you can go any number of routes and still be damn good.
Compare that to Combat builds, who really won't have much deviation between the three different roles you can play. That is of course assuming they fix Killing Spree.
All I have to say, is thank god for dual specs, Mutilate Rogues are really going to need them.
Imp Eviscerate (with glyph) and probably wound/wound or wound/mind numb
OR Ruthlessness with wound/deadly, using envenom.
PVP of course.
I really like Evisc right now and envenom doesn't help wound poison procs which I will be using in pvps. It is however a lot harder to dispel a wound/deadly/crippling combo than just a wound / crippling.
I am leaning towards Ruthlessness, so I think I have answered my own question. Not using evisc i could make room for the new vigor glyph too... yeah i think it's settled.
I just love how Blizzard made a bunch of changes to all the classes so that "there won't be one specific way to spec to maximize the character." but i'm sure there's people already working on the best cookie-cutters out there. At least we have more than 1 viable spec even if I'm sure someone is hard at work so they can tell us what the one best spec is... I'm just waiting to see if my RLs come 80 read a website with the new "raid specs" on it and tell me i have to be point for point a certain spec... even though they haven't been playing the class and keeping up with the changes/mechanics/whatnot...
That looks impressive, right? <.<
Beats the crap out of sword spec, and is way more interesting to play.
Is this a case of "amigad im not #1 on metres!!!1" or is there something else I'm missing?
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow