Consdering that with the glyph 15% of Mut's damage comes from HfB, it needs to be available for all uses of the spec.
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with those pulls and being melee (done heroic as both healer and rogue) you just sorta get a feel for the CD cycle on WW from the mobs.
Also, the WW ticks as it hits so its not a 1 shot kill, if you can get out after the first tick hits and before the 2nd the healer should be able to keep you alive assuming you didnt back out into another WW or aoe.
also fist/fist is the way to go for combat if you can get calamity's grasp from KT you'll be golden just get a nice offhand with good damage/speed mix.
im a fan of grasp/hand of nerub but any good fist will work for that spec.
any yes I will be abandoning HfB once the change hits. I may keep it as a dual spec for raiding if it pans out to be higher DPS but I doubt that will be the case, more than likely my rogue will be mut/prep and deep combat for dual spec once it hits due to the planned changes.
HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Better, but if they're still leaving the bleed requirement on there, it still sucks. It just sucks less.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
has it still got the ridiculous "oh hey only works if the target's bleeding"?
Edit: halfmex, you fastposting devil
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
I don't see why that's such a bad requirement. Are bleeds bad DPS choice for Muti Rogues?
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
It basically means that the talent goes from being useable anytime as it is on live to being situational (25 man raids are a pretty sure thing in terms of having bleed effects, 10s less so and 5s far less likely), screwing us out of front-end damage (and by relation front-end threat via Tricks of the Trade) and being mob-specific (meaning the damage bonus won't apply to a second mob until it has a bleed effect as well).
Now, if they removed the bleed requirement, left the one stack total and made today's changes active, it would be a far better situation.
It's still a pretty lazy talent by most rogues' accounts, but fixing it as suggested above would be preferable by far to what it is today. As it is now they just keep spit shining the turd.
The only way I could really get behind the bleed thing is if they made it automatically trigger when anyone near you starts bleeding.
ie. You garrote the target or your hunter pal gets hit with a rend, thus you go into a blood-crazed frenzy from the scent and gain +15% damage for the next 60 seconds.
I still just don't rogues getting an enrage. Aren't rogues supposed to be subtle? Stealth, feint, garrote, etc all seem to be "stealthy" things, and then an enrage? Doesn't seem to fit.
But I am just arguing semantics, I wouldn't have had a problem if it had said something like "Your Target's Bleeding Wounds give you a 15% damage bonus on all attacks".
Shit. Just make it a passive talent.
"All attacks done to targets suffering from a bleed effect do 15% more damage"
It basically means that the talent goes from being useable anytime as it is on live to being situational (25 man raids are a pretty sure thing in terms of having bleed effects, 10s less so and 5s far less likely), screwing us out of front-end damage (and by relation front-end threat via Tricks of the Trade) and being mob-specific (meaning the damage bonus won't apply to a second mob until it has a bleed effect as well).
I don't see anywhere they've said that it's mob specific. It's still just a self-buff that gives you +15% damage as long as the buff is active. All that's changing is there is now a condition for activation (target is bleeding) that will make things worse in some situations but better in others.
I'm confused- where did they say HfB will only work on the target that had the bleed on when you triggered it?
All I'm seeing is that you have to be targeting a mob with a bleed on it when you use it, but then you just get a +damage% buff that works on every mob. Nowhere have I seen any indication that it's one target only.
I still just don't rogues getting an enrage. Aren't rogues supposed to be subtle? Stealth, feint, garrote, etc all seem to be "stealthy" things, and then an enrage? Doesn't seem to fit.
But I am just arguing semantics, I wouldn't have had a problem if it had said something like "Your Target's Bleeding Wounds give you a 15% damage bonus on all attacks".
Shit. Just make it a passive talent.
"All attacks done to targets suffering from a bleed effect do 15% more damage"
Here's a thought I had recently for making it be more passive without just having it be "always increases your damage by 15%" while still maintaining Blizzard's "vision" of being related to bleeds. Each time one of your bleeds ticks (garrote/rupture), you could get a stacking buff that increases damage done by, say, 3%, up to a 5 stack with a 30-60 second duration.
This way you could keep the damage bonus when switching to a new target, as long as you got another bleed going before the buff ran out. And if your waits in between trash packs weren't too long, you could keep opening with a Garrote to keep up the buff and be able to do +15% damage FoKs.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
It basically means that the talent goes from being useable anytime as it is on live to being situational (25 man raids are a pretty sure thing in terms of having bleed effects, 10s less so and 5s far less likely), screwing us out of front-end damage (and by relation front-end threat via Tricks of the Trade) and being mob-specific (meaning the damage bonus won't apply to a second mob until it has a bleed effect as well).
I don't see anywhere they've said that it's mob specific. It's still just a self-buff that gives you +15% damage as long as the buff is active. All that's changing is there is now a condition for activation (target is bleeding) that will make things worse in some situations but better in others.
I was unclear a bit there. To clarify, since bleeds will typically just affect one mob (I'm not aware of any AoE effects that will trigger bleeds on multiple mobs at one time other than deep wounds from a whirlwind for warriors), switching targets will mean you lose that DPS boost until the bleed ends up on the next target as well (self-inflicted or otherwise).
But I'm 99% certain that's not how the new HfB works.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Unless I'm misreading/misunderstanding it, it just says "requires a bleed effect on the target", meaning that if you switch to another target without a bleed effect on it yet, you're out that 15% (18% with glyph) boost until it gets a bleed effect on it as well.
No. In order to be able to use the HfB ability (i.e., "cast" the "spell"), your current target must be bleeding. Once you use HfB, you have a +15% damage self buff that has no conditions. At this point you only need to be concerned with bleeds once the HfB buff has almost run out so that you can refresh it (which will require your current target to be bleeding).
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
That's not a whole lot different than how I had interpreted it, but fair enough. In any case, it still creates an issue if there is not a bleed effect on the next target by the time the buff runs out, which makes the fact that the duration has been doubled all the more appealing I suppose.
I still don't care for the talent, but we'll see what happens between now and when it goes live.
As a leather-wearing melee dps (that can't turn into a bear), how do I survive in Heroic Halls of Lightning?
I ran the heroic version for the first time last night, and didn't really have much trouble until after the third boss. Then (even though I had over 19K health, second only to the tank) I was dying on practically every single pull due to the damn whirlwind attacks, which caused the warlock to remark about how I was squishier then he was, despite the fact he got to stand a cushy 30 yards away.
Now if the iron dwarf I'm targetting does the whirlwind, I see the cast bar and can move. But if one of the other two iron dwarves that the tank is handling decides to do it, I die because my health is gone before I realize it's dropping and the priest was focusing on healing the tank.
I started popping evasion every pull that it was up, but with it's cooldown that's one out of every 2-3 pulls at best.
Any suggestions for me to not look quite as horrible at the game?
1.- stun lock
2.- use crowd control if you can on one of the runeshapers if more than one. You can sap as long as you stay far away from the tall guys.
3.- focus fire to kill it first
4.- use your disarm
5.- evasion if all else fails and get the heck out
Unless they've taken it away from rogues, uhh kick the ability and stop it from casting?
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I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
As a leather-wearing melee dps (that can't turn into a bear), how do I survive in Heroic Halls of Lightning?
I ran the heroic version for the first time last night, and didn't really have much trouble until after the third boss. Then (even though I had over 19K health, second only to the tank) I was dying on practically every single pull due to the damn whirlwind attacks, which caused the warlock to remark about how I was squishier then he was, despite the fact he got to stand a cushy 30 yards away.
Now if the iron dwarf I'm targetting does the whirlwind, I see the cast bar and can move. But if one of the other two iron dwarves that the tank is handling decides to do it, I die because my health is gone before I realize it's dropping and the priest was focusing on healing the tank.
I started popping evasion every pull that it was up, but with it's cooldown that's one out of every 2-3 pulls at best.
Any suggestions for me to not look quite as horrible at the game?
1.- stun lock
2.- use crowd control if you can on one of the runeshapers if more than one. You can sap as long as you stay far away from the tall guys.
3.- focus fire to kill it first
4.- use your disarm
5.- evasion if all else fails and get the heck out
Unless they've taken it away from rogues, uhh kick the ability and stop it from casting?
whirlwind and other physical channeled effects generally can't be interrupted.
also: sound effects're pretty good for avoiding stuff like whirlwinds from something you're not targeting. If you play with your sound off, woops.jpg.
Unless they've taken it away from rogues, uhh kick the ability and stop it from casting?
whirlwind and other physical channeled effects generally can't be interrupted.
also: sound effects're pretty good for avoiding stuff like whirlwinds from something you're not targeting. If you play with your sound off, woops.jpg.
the lightning whirlwinds in HoL can be spell locked/counterspelled, so presumably some other interrupts would work as well.
Kick not being one of them, i tried this in a run...
What i generally do on the two-packs is open on one and when he starts in KS him then blind the other when he starts... or blind the other one if he starts first and then KS the one i opened on.
Ugh. I hate the new Hunger for Blood. I have a really hard time keeping rupture on my targets as is, so my 51 point talent all but useless now?
Blizzard refuses to make HfB use non-obnoxious.
Remember SA for combat? It was a static bonus end of the tree talent (In BC) that worked great.
Why the fuck can you not do something similar with HfB you retarded assholes?
Make the goddamn ability a static bonus to damage or some shit and be done with it. Every new iteration of HfB is getting more and more retarded.
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Just in case anyone was wondering why they're (at least for the moment) keeping the bleed requirement on HfB (and why they implemented in the first place):
At this point in time, we don't want Hunger for Blood to look attractive to any PvP rogue. Period. We realize that most Assassination rogues wouldn't currently want to go 51 Assassination for PvP because they want to get Prep. That's good. We don't want to ever get HfB to look too attractive to them or they might consider giving up Prep or something else, at which point rogue burst damage in PvP would be too high again.
The energy cost and duration changes are intended to make keeping the buff up a little easier for PvE rogues while still keeping the bleed as an insurance policy. On bosses, the bleed will almost certainly be there. On trash, the bleed might be there (though Fan of Knives is also fine for large groups of trash). When solo you can get a bleed on if you want or choose to forego HfB depending on the encounter.
At a higher level, yes, we would love to have talent trees where there are 51 point Assassination PvP rogues and hybrid PvE rogues. That would take substantial redesign of all the rogue trees and probably rethinking things like chaining cooldowns, burst out of stealth and a lot of other PvP mechanics. We just think that magnitude of change isn't appropriate for a content patch.
We think Assassination rogues with Mutilate / Prep can be competitive in PvP now, and some players (especially outside of North America) do well with Subtelty in PvP.
We think for 3.1 that Combat rogues are in good shape for PvE and with a few more tweaks, Assassination can get there. Subtelty can be great depending on how willing you are to stack your party to use Honor Among Thieves.
That isn't 3+ specs viable for PvP and PvE, which is our ultimate goal. But it's a start.
Of course we will continue to evaluate how rogues perform in the remainder of the 3.1 test time and once the patch gets loosed in the real world. I hope that clears things up.
What's funny about this is that even without the bleed requirement, HfB is still unattractive for PvP rogues today, so his reasoning makes no sense. I kind of feel bad for the guy, because he has to be the mouthpiece for the developers and they clearly don't know what they want to do with this class.
Unless they've taken it away from rogues, uhh kick the ability and stop it from casting?
whirlwind and other physical channeled effects generally can't be interrupted.
also: sound effects're pretty good for avoiding stuff like whirlwinds from something you're not targeting. If you play with your sound off, woops.jpg.
the lightning whirlwinds in HoL can be spell locked/counterspelled, so presumably some other interrupts would work as well.
Kick not being one of them, i tried this in a run...
What i generally do on the two-packs is open on one and when he starts in KS him then blind the other when he starts... or blind the other one if he starts first and then KS the one i opened on.
I can tell you that Mind Freeze works on this whirlwind. Mind Freeze being identical to kick, I'd recommend you try kicking.
I'm so glad annoying players is considered an acceptable trade off for not being able to balance or plan trees.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
I wouldn't mind the change so much if I hadn't y'know, gone mutilate and as such have no fucking swords for Combat.
I'm going to make a new rogue on a different server. I would assume that putting the badge heirloom sword and the wintergrasp heirloom sword together would be a bad thing? Both really slow weapons.
I'm going to make a new rogue on a different server. I would assume that putting the badge heirloom sword and the wintergrasp heirloom sword together would be a bad thing? Both really slow weapons.
It's not optimal, no, but two weapons with good stats/DPS/enchants will beat the various unenchanted crap you'll get along the way up that doesn't increase in damage as you level.
In 3.1, the only advantage a fast off hand will provide for combat is more combat potency procs. Poison damage should be about the same no matter what speed weapons you use.
How do you intend to get the heirloom weapons to another server? Are you going to create the rogue on your main server, mail him the stuff, then pay for a transfer?
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Well, right now, yeah--but only because the reason you want a Slow/Fast is because of poison procs, which is one of the big changes for 3.1, so I guess slow/slow could be significantly more viable.
Oh, No I meant to say I'm making a new rogue on my paladins server. Once the lazy alliance fuckers decide to send more than four people to take Wintergrasp. My paladin has all my badges and shit.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Gentlemen. I downed Mal'Ganis today (after we were like 30 seconds away from the Corruptor WRYYYYYYYY), and Greed dropped. I needed, thinking it'd be nice to have something for 3.1. Friend of mine has Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker, and he's willing to give/sell it to me.
I'll probably be going Combat in 3.1 due to assassination getting the assfuck treatment--is that a good pairing for starting out? Should I start leveling my Unarmed?
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Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
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Oh, I readjusted my dps rotation, brought down hit, and dropped in a few expertise gems.
2400 on a grandmaster. Yay! Naxx25, here I come!
PS: Thank you, Tag.
Also, the WW ticks as it hits so its not a 1 shot kill, if you can get out after the first tick hits and before the 2nd the healer should be able to keep you alive assuming you didnt back out into another WW or aoe.
also fist/fist is the way to go for combat if you can get calamity's grasp from KT you'll be golden just get a nice offhand with good damage/speed mix.
im a fan of grasp/hand of nerub but any good fist will work for that spec.
any yes I will be abandoning HfB once the change hits. I may keep it as a dual spec for raiding if it pans out to be higher DPS but I doubt that will be the case, more than likely my rogue will be mut/prep and deep combat for dual spec once it hits due to the planned changes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDy-pbci6_g
All druid 10-naxx
* Hunger for Blood now lasts 1 min. Energy cost reduced from 30 to 15.
BOI-OI-OI-OI-OING
Edit: halfmex, you fastposting devil
Now, if they removed the bleed requirement, left the one stack total and made today's changes active, it would be a far better situation.
It's still a pretty lazy talent by most rogues' accounts, but fixing it as suggested above would be preferable by far to what it is today. As it is now they just keep spit shining the turd.
ie. You garrote the target or your hunter pal gets hit with a rend, thus you go into a blood-crazed frenzy from the scent and gain +15% damage for the next 60 seconds.
But I am just arguing semantics, I wouldn't have had a problem if it had said something like "Your Target's Bleeding Wounds give you a 15% damage bonus on all attacks".
Shit. Just make it a passive talent.
"All attacks done to targets suffering from a bleed effect do 15% more damage"
All I'm seeing is that you have to be targeting a mob with a bleed on it when you use it, but then you just get a +damage% buff that works on every mob. Nowhere have I seen any indication that it's one target only.
This way you could keep the damage bonus when switching to a new target, as long as you got another bleed going before the buff ran out. And if your waits in between trash packs weren't too long, you could keep opening with a Garrote to keep up the buff and be able to do +15% damage FoKs.
I still don't care for the talent, but we'll see what happens between now and when it goes live.
Unless they've taken it away from rogues, uhh kick the ability and stop it from casting?
pleasepaypreacher.net
whirlwind and other physical channeled effects generally can't be interrupted.
also: sound effects're pretty good for avoiding stuff like whirlwinds from something you're not targeting. If you play with your sound off, woops.jpg.
Blizzard refuses to make HfB use non-obnoxious.
Remember SA for combat? It was a static bonus end of the tree talent (In BC) that worked great.
Why the fuck can you not do something similar with HfB you retarded assholes?
Make the goddamn ability a static bonus to damage or some shit and be done with it. Every new iteration of HfB is getting more and more retarded.
What's funny about this is that even without the bleed requirement, HfB is still unattractive for PvP rogues today, so his reasoning makes no sense. I kind of feel bad for the guy, because he has to be the mouthpiece for the developers and they clearly don't know what they want to do with this class.
I just spent 400 gold on two of those fucking librarians daggers.
I should have just saved my gold and used it to get a 1h sword or something..
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
:^:
In 3.1, the only advantage a fast off hand will provide for combat is more combat potency procs. Poison damage should be about the same no matter what speed weapons you use.
How do you intend to get the heirloom weapons to another server? Are you going to create the rogue on your main server, mail him the stuff, then pay for a transfer?
and what forty said.
I'll probably be going Combat in 3.1 due to assassination getting the assfuck treatment--is that a good pairing for starting out? Should I start leveling my Unarmed?