We can't have every energy-using spec using only two finishers, can we? Anyway, that's why assassination needs the extra rigmarole from HfB: to keep it on par with combat.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Shiv-assassination is the best thing ever. I suppose the best part about the upcoming nerf is that it is a huge fucking nerf to the viability of the spec, as in there will be absolutely no reason to do it--so it won't even tempt me.
I'm looking forward to Combat, though. I think I posted a build earlier, I think I'll give it a repost for critique:
If I for some reason want to go swords, I switch the point in Improved Sprint to Endurance in order to manage Sword Specialization.
Looks like I'll be Mainhanding [Greed], but I'm still not sure about an OH. Given recent revelations I've had (FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU), it'll have to be a fast OH. I assume it'll still be Instant/Deadly as it was before? Eviscerates and not Envenoms, correct? Or should I be glyphing Envenom?
Edit: Back in the day, I recall 5-pointing (or trying to) every finisher. Given that SnD is 50% longer, though, that might not be entirely necessary. I'm gonna miss Cut to the Chase so much.
They ended up removing the envenom glyph and putting that functionality on Master Poisoner.
I've actually mostly stopped paying attention to the PTR now. Things with rogues keep changing in such a piecemeal and random way that its not worth it. Should only take me a few days to math everything out anyway once the official build is known
(Now I just gotta get a slow combat MH just in case. We got our first Calamity's Grasp last night, but I passed it to our enhancement shaman.)
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chino: I'm curious in what way you consider Combat "sluggish." I guess I could see CP generation, but compared to the other specs it actually has the best energy regeneration (with raid buffs, Vitality and Combat Potency should be increasing your average energy generation by about 50% above base), and with a 40 energy main attack, you're probably pushing a button at least as often as mutilate rogues. I guess if you're comparing it to a 34 energy main attack spamming build, then I could understand that, but I'd think about anything would feel sluggish compared to that.
Basically in combo point generation and energy regeneration. Compared to Mutilate, combo point generation is really slow. While Mut costs 20 more energy, it will very often give you 3 combo points (with max seal fate), to me it feels like I am generating combo points extremely fast.
Same goes for Shiv assassination build (my latest build). The Shiv cost makes it more energy efficient, while any Shiv crit will also give you an additional combo point and energy (seal fate and focused attacks).
With combat, for the most part you are consistently getting only 1 combo point for 40 energy, or, you have a 50% chance of getting an additional combo point on crits with the SS glyph (as opposed to 100% chance with Seal Fate).
This all amounted to having to spend way more energy just on trying to keep SnD while maintaining Rupture up as well. Cut to the Chase certainly is missed, can't go wrong with refreshing SnD and Eviscerating for the price of one.
Again, this was against the test dummy without any sorts of buffs. But, in the same scenario, assassination "feels" less sluggish.
Hey, fuckers. What are your thoughts on current Hemo builds for Solo PvE and PvP?
:P
They normalized Hemo which made it considerably worse, and the tree itself sort of schizophrenically jumps between Backstab and Hemo, without actually making either as good as mutilate.
HAT (with hemo) solo is tolerable, but its not something I would do for fun given an alternative. I was just to lazy to respec when not raiding while HAT. Macro in premed and short fights are actually fast, but it loses ground on long fights. HAT is great for raids with the right group comp.
Hemo is pretty much on life-support for PvP. Pretty much the only highly represented rogue spec is Mut/Prep right now. There are still some diehards that make it work, of course, but the survivability and mobility advantages it had in TBC have slimmed a lot, and Shadow Dance just gets CCed and provides less burst than Mut/Prep puts out.
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Hey, fuckers. What are your thoughts on current Hemo builds for Solo PvE and PvP?
:P
They normalized Hemo which made it considerably worse, and the tree itself sort of schizophrenically jumps between Backstab and Hemo, without actually making either as good as mutilate.
HAT (with hemo) solo is tolerable, but its not something I would do for fun given an alternative. I was just to lazy to respec when not raiding while HAT. Macro in premed and short fights are actually fast, but it loses ground on long fights. HAT is great for raids with the right group comp.
Hemo is pretty much on life-support for PvP. Pretty much the only highly represented rogue spec is Mut/Prep right now. There are still some diehards that make it work, of course, but the survivability and mobility advantages it had in TBC have slimmed a lot, and Shadow Dance just gets CCed and provides less burst than Mut/Prep puts out.
Alright, so much for that.
I guess it's back to same old boring ass combat...
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HalfmexI mock your value systemYou also appear foolish in the eyes of othersRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
I've said it before, but I really do think the Sub tree needs to be scrapped entirely and re-worked, with a clear vision of what the fuck the devs want to do with it from the get-go. It's half dagger talents working off backstab (which itself makes no sense as Mutilate superior by far) and half mobility/trick talents which are nice in and of themselves, but many of which are better off as glyphs or baseline abilities at this point (Camoflage for example). And then there's Hemo, which just sticks out like a sore thumb. It's marked as a "debuff" attack, but no one in their right mind would take such a monumental hit to their personal DPS to help the raid out with such a small buff. GC has outright said that Hemo is not designed to be a "spammable" attack like Sinister Strike, instead it's supposed to be used to provide a debuff only...except that the charges from that attack wear off so quickly that you'd HAVE to spam it in order for it to be worth anything (which it isn't anyway). So yeah, no clear vision on what the fuck they're doing with that tree.
Sadder still is the fact that there was a huge thread on Sub feedback on the WotLK Beta boards and it was roundly ignored.
Looks like I'll be Mainhanding [Greed], but I'm still not sure about an OH. Given recent revelations I've had (FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU), it'll have to be a fast OH. I assume it'll still be Instant/Deadly as it was before? Eviscerates and not Envenoms, correct? Or should I be glyphing Envenom?
Edit: Back in the day, I recall 5-pointing (or trying to) every finisher. Given that SnD is 50% longer, though, that might not be entirely necessary. I'm gonna miss Cut to the Chase so much.
Well, I haven't been combat for a while, but my last recollection was that with the SnD glyph I was able to do 1 SnD / 5 Rupture.... rinse repeat. This was back when Rupture was the finisher of choice instead of Eviscerate and Envenom was too much of a DPS loss compared to keeping your 5 DP poison stack intact.
Nowadays, in my experience Rupture just plain sucks ass. Even with the improved talent and the glyph it has not been more than 5% of my damage in any boss fights, which is a shame. IMO it has been relegated as supplemental DPS. Others may disagree though.
That leaves me with Eviscerating or Envenom. Its hard to spec for additional Envenom damage unless you drop to 2/5 relentless assault. That is why I went with Eviscerate instead of Envenom. But others may have a better understandin as to which poisons / finishers are better for combat
Rupture is definitely weak on its own, but with the +30% bleed damage debuff from arms warriors / feral druids it generally places just a hair under evis for me with my shiv-assassin raid build.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
I use Rupture on Live, but it seems that my DPS actually takes a dip while trying to have Rupture up on the PTR, specced into Blood Spatter and with the Glyph. Instead, I just mash SS and Evisc (Envenom is--as expected--not as good), switched out Glyph of Rupture for Glyph of Adrenaline Rush, and have AR up as often as possible. 20 secs of near-infinite energy is p nice. I'm thinking of putting the two points in Blood Spatter into Ruthlessness instead.
Hmmm do you mean solo or did they change something?
With the high rate of crit most people have, evis/envenom do more damage than rupture without the +30% debuff from a druid/warrior.
That said, even with the debuff, the difference may be small enough on the PTR for AR to overwhelm it.
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Rupture is definitely weak on its own, but with the +30% bleed damage debuff from arms warriors / feral druids it generally places just a hair under evis for me with my shiv-assassin raid build.
Regretfully, the one DPS warrior we have did not go down that far in the tree. But will have that as part of his dual spec when it comes out. We also do not have a feral druid in the guild (damn you death knights!!)
So for me, even when I was assassination with Rupture Glyph and Blood Splatter, Rupture is a huge disappointment. I do not have the 2 piece-bonus yet, but 10% additional damage to an attack that was barely doing 5% of my overall damage can't be that good.
Also, run my first 25-man Naxx with the new combat fist / dagger last night. Awesome on trash pulls, not so good on boss fights, at least currently with no additional haste from lighting reflexes. The Survival Hunter was leaving me in the dust, when I am usually able to keep up with him. He is a DPS beast actually, so not too much complaining there.
I went with Deadly Mainhand / Wound Off-hand for bosses. I did not Envenom just to keep my 5 DP stack ticking all the time. But still working on a rotation. I tried the 3 SnD / 5 R / 3-4 Evis and it seemed to work OK, still felt like every 2 cycles I had to completely skip on the Eviscerate and refresh the SnD. I do have the SnD Glyph and Talent.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
How brutally important is keeping expertise at the 6.5% level? I just picked up a bunch of stuff from Naxx 25 (only Rogue in the raid) and my expertise dropped to 3.5%. I could regem in a bunch of expertise gems but I'd rather not. Thoughts?
Percentage of damage can be sort of a misleading stat for analysis, especially with assassination specs. My rupture is just a hair under evis for damage as shiv-assassin but I evis much more often. If you have recount, I would look at your average rupture damage versus your average evis damage. There was some talk of ruptureless specs a while ago, but it involved the heaviest amounts of "cheese" in terms of specs and gear.
Eh, dps is dps, you would probably have to plug it in to a spreadsheet to see. Rating point for rating point, expertise is one of the most valuable stats up to cap but sacrificing other stats can easily outweigh it. Also, certain specs are more impacted -- I think I have only 50 expertise rating or something stupid but because I'm shiv specced (shiv can't be dodged, and I have quick recovery for 80% energy refund on failed finishers) its not anywhere near as powerful as with other specs.
Which reminds me, I guess I have to build up expertise again for the patch.
@Brain
I don't have a list in front of me, but off the top of my head:
Mutilate - minus 5 energy
HfB - +3% damage (making it +18%)
AR - lengthed duration (forget how much, changed from shortened cooldown due to AR's cooldown being dropped to 3 minutes).
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In other words, that's an extra 50 energy for every use of AR, which can only be used every 180 seconds at best. When I think about it that way, it doesn't sound very good.
Picked up Greed a couple nights ago and was thinking of going with that and Titansteel Shanker and using a weapon swap macro for opening on clothies and when I jump into a shadow dance. If it is determined that a swap is to cumbersome any input on where to reallocate the 4 points on dagger related talents (Opportunity and Improved Ambush) within the sub tree.
Understand that weapon swap and a relatively slow OH dagger is probably sub-optimal but I thought the spec looked kind of interesting.
If someone has a link to a more cookie-cutter fist based PvP build I would be interested in seeing that as well.
Weapon swapping is cumbersome enough just in PvE. I can only imagine it's even worse in PvP where you have to deal with shit like being knocked out of stealth before opening, getting CC'd or stunned while trying to swap, needing to make the best use of GCDs as possible due to potentially limited time on target, etc.
Deep sub pvp specs, such as they are, are generally backstab based. The normalization of hemo essentially gutted the attack, and taking the talents to make it ok again improve backstab even more (and Dance clearly favors a dagger).
If you're really set on not using a MH dagger, you could always try a combat pvp build. It lacks the burst of mut, but can still function pretty well if the rest of your team has decent CC to make up for your lack of mobility (mut also lacks mobility but the longer the fight, the more important it is and mut's burst shortens fights).
edit: to be good at combat PvP you have to be *really* technically good at rogue PvP in general -- particularly using throwing spec to wreck casters' days.
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Deep sub pvp specs, such as they are, are generally backstab based. The normalization of hemo essentially gutted the attack, and taking the talents to make it ok again improve backstab even more (and Dance clearly favors a dagger).
If you're really set on not using a MH dagger, you could always try a combat pvp build. It lacks the burst of mut, but can still function pretty well if the rest of your team has decent CC to make up for your lack of mobility (mut also lacks mobility but the longer the fight, the more important it is and mut's burst shortens fights).
edit: to be good at combat PvP you have to be *really* technically good at rogue PvP in general -- particularly using throwing spec to wreck casters' days.
Damn Blizz to hell. I want to Hemo someone in the face with my voltron fitst.
OK, second night as combat fist/dagger. Conclusion, I am going back to Assassination Shiv Spec, at least until the patch hits.
As stated before, combat is absolutely great for trash AoE (nothing better than having a pack of 6-9 mobs, hitting adrenaline rush and spam Fan of Knives, followed up by Blade Flurry and Killing Spree). For boss fights, the DPS is just nowhere near the Shiv Build.
Well, Combat is competitive, though most I know are shiv-combat for the same reason I'm shiv-assassin. Combat also requires a high rDPS raid team since the shorter fights give the highest advantage to its powerful cooldowns.
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OK, second night as combat fist/dagger. Conclusion, I am going back to Assassination Shiv Spec, at least until the patch hits.
As stated before, combat is absolutely great for trash AoE (nothing better than having a pack of 6-9 mobs, hitting adrenaline rush and spam Fan of Knives, followed up by Blade Flurry and Killing Spree). For boss fights, the DPS is just nowhere near the Shiv Build.
What kind of DPS are you seeing on Patchwerk with a shiv build. I was under the impression that Mut was still on top (excluding HaT hax).
Deep sub pvp specs, such as they are, are generally backstab based. The normalization of hemo essentially gutted the attack, and taking the talents to make it ok again improve backstab even more (and Dance clearly favors a dagger).
If you're really set on not using a MH dagger, you could always try a combat pvp build. It lacks the burst of mut, but can still function pretty well if the rest of your team has decent CC to make up for your lack of mobility (mut also lacks mobility but the longer the fight, the more important it is and mut's burst shortens fights).
edit: to be good at combat PvP you have to be *really* technically good at rogue PvP in general -- particularly using throwing spec to wreck casters' days.
Do you have a link to a combat PvP spec? Here is what I came up with (the 3/5 LR is to reflect what the new talent will be). Wasn't sure if going deep into Sub was better than getting Vigor is Assass and also wasn't sure how helpful the stealth talents would be.
EDIT: Two clarifications - I have points in preceision but if it is not needed for PvP I would move to Imp Gouge, Parry, SnD or something like that. Also, I am guessing moving 2 points from sub tree to pick up Endurance is probably a better choice but wasn't sure
EDIT: If I don't need precision and if stealth enhancing talents are not important for Combat PvP - I would probably go this way
Looks mostly reasonable. You probably want 2/2 nerves of steel and either or both Imp. Sprint and Endurance. But I don't really PvP much in this game anymore (I prefer TF2 for arenas and WAR for large scale PvP) so I don't know if there is a "standard combat offspec" build. Just remember that the talents cruical for PvE (combat potency, savage combat) typically play much less a role in the jousting style, while survivability and mobility talents are paramount. Even unfair advantage becomes a little more appealing.
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OK, second night as combat fist/dagger. Conclusion, I am going back to Assassination Shiv Spec, at least until the patch hits.
As stated before, combat is absolutely great for trash AoE (nothing better than having a pack of 6-9 mobs, hitting adrenaline rush and spam Fan of Knives, followed up by Blade Flurry and Killing Spree). For boss fights, the DPS is just nowhere near the Shiv Build.
What kind of DPS are you seeing on Patchwerk with a shiv build. I was under the impression that Mut was still on top (excluding HaT hax).
As far as my own experience, I was running mutilate until about 2 weeks ago. When I switched to the Shiv spec, I went from being No 4-6 on DPS in the guild, to consistently being No 2 on boss fights. By my ROUGH estimations, I think I was doing about 300-500 DPS more with Shiv build, fully raid buffed.
Last week I pulled 4150 DPS on Patchwerk as Assasi Shiv spec. Also, we use the strategy where melee has to run back to the poison river to reduce our hit points, so that could be a bit higher.
This week as combat, I was pulling 3500 DPS on the same boss. Granted, group composition was different, but not 650 DPS different in my opinion.
I don't know, those are my observations. For me, until patch hits, I'm going back to Assassination Shiv spec. Once we get the new talents, I will give combat fist / dagger another look.
Rogue (3.1 Skills List / 3.1 Talent + Glyph Calc.)
Deadly Throw: Missile speed increased.
Woooo
<.<
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OK, second night as combat fist/dagger. Conclusion, I am going back to Assassination Shiv Spec, at least until the patch hits.
As stated before, combat is absolutely great for trash AoE (nothing better than having a pack of 6-9 mobs, hitting adrenaline rush and spam Fan of Knives, followed up by Blade Flurry and Killing Spree). For boss fights, the DPS is just nowhere near the Shiv Build.
What kind of DPS are you seeing on Patchwerk with a shiv build. I was under the impression that Mut was still on top (excluding HaT hax).
As far as my own experience, I was running mutilate until about 2 weeks ago. When I switched to the Shiv spec, I went from being No 4-6 on DPS in the guild, to consistently being No 2 on boss fights. By my ROUGH estimations, I think I was doing about 300-500 DPS more with Shiv build, fully raid buffed.
Last week I pulled 4150 DPS on Patchwerk as Assasi Shiv spec. Also, we use the strategy where melee has to run back to the poison river to reduce our hit points, so that could be a bit higher.
This week as combat, I was pulling 3500 DPS on the same boss. Granted, group composition was different, but not 650 DPS different in my opinion.
I don't know, those are my observations. For me, until patch hits, I'm going back to Assassination Shiv spec. Once we get the new talents, I will give combat fist / dagger another look.
There's a ... strat for reducing your hitpoints? Three tanks, everyone else removes fort/commanding shout. No need to do anything to your hitpoints. That is silly. I guess it's hard for me to take your numbers and mix them in with ours. Our rogues are consistently at 5k+ on Patch, and they are both Mut.
EDIT: Do you have 20% haste (Windfury Totem/Improved Icy Talons)? If not, you're needlessly gimping your melee. My DPS drops by over 1k without WF/IIT. YMMV, as I'm not a rogue, but it's huge for every melee class.
If your rogues are doing 5k as mut they will do more as shiv-assassination. It scales better than mut spec, which is why it took off in the "late" stage of the game.
Granted its only by a couple hundred dps or so, but the extra control of CP is nice.
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If your rogues are doing 5k as mut they will do more as shiv-assassination. It scales better than mut spec, which is why it took off in the "late" stage of the game.
Granted its only by a couple hundred dps or so, but the extra control of CP is nice.
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SenshiBALLING OUT OF CONTROLWavefrontRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
I hate either wasting a combo point or using four points when I could've used five.
This--along with beating a better-geared mut rogue today in a lot of fights in naxx10--is why I am shiv.
Also, I was thinking combo points need to work like they did in D2: Stack them on us, not the target. This is why we get fucked over in pulls with lots of weak trash, because we don't have time to get five points up before the mob is dead. Combined with Cut to the Chase, we're dropping SnD, too. This is bullshit. Just make the points expire after 10 seconds of no use or something.
Anyway, 5573 DPS on a 2 minute Patchwerk is less impressive than 5564 DPS on a 3 minute Patchwerk. I remain unconvinced.
Well, DPS is DPS, no matter how long the fight is. And if you remain unconvinced then have your rogue try the Shiv spec and see what numbers he gets. There have been several posters on these boards giving their results as Mutilate vs. Shiv, and most results point to Shiv being superior DPS at the moment.
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EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
So as Combat I can't seem to break 3.5k DPS in raids. Here's my Armory...
Yes, I know my MH isn't enchanted, I'm poor and I know the minute I spend the cash to enchant it something else is going to drop. I'm doing a SnD, Rup, Evisc, rotation.
I have Anarchy in my bank. I was thinking of trying out a Mutilate build? Would that be the most effective for double daggers in a raid environment? Also, which should I MH? Anarchy or Webbed Death?
Anyway, 5573 DPS on a 2 minute Patchwerk is less impressive than 5564 DPS on a 3 minute Patchwerk. I remain unconvinced.
Well, DPS is DPS, no matter how long the fight is. And if you remain unconvinced then have your rogue try the Shiv spec and see what numbers he gets. There have been several posters on these boards giving their results as Mutilate vs. Shiv, and most results point to Shiv being superior DPS at the moment.
Indeed, and chances are, my 5500 DPS Mut rogue would have done a fair amount more on a 2 minute fight as opposed to a 3 minute fight. Consider Heroism/Trinket uptime on a fight that short.
Indeed, and chances are, my 5500 DPS Mut rogue would have done a fair amount more on a 2 minute fight as opposed to a 3 minute fight. Consider Heroism/Trinket uptime on a fight that short.
You are diverging from the point of the post, which was to show that Shiv spec is higher DPS than Mutilate. No one is debating your rogue's DPS, what we are saying is that he would do even higher DPS as Shiv spec.
Posts
I'm looking forward to Combat, though. I think I posted a build earlier, I think I'll give it a repost for critique:
CQC weapon-Combat (15/51/5)
If I for some reason want to go swords, I switch the point in Improved Sprint to Endurance in order to manage Sword Specialization.
Looks like I'll be Mainhanding [Greed], but I'm still not sure about an OH. Given recent revelations I've had (FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU), it'll have to be a fast OH. I assume it'll still be Instant/Deadly as it was before? Eviscerates and not Envenoms, correct? Or should I be glyphing Envenom?
Edit: Back in the day, I recall 5-pointing (or trying to) every finisher. Given that SnD is 50% longer, though, that might not be entirely necessary. I'm gonna miss Cut to the Chase so much.
I've actually mostly stopped paying attention to the PTR now. Things with rogues keep changing in such a piecemeal and random way that its not worth it. Should only take me a few days to math everything out anyway once the official build is known
(Now I just gotta get a slow combat MH just in case. We got our first Calamity's Grasp last night, but I passed it to our enhancement shaman.)
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Basically in combo point generation and energy regeneration. Compared to Mutilate, combo point generation is really slow. While Mut costs 20 more energy, it will very often give you 3 combo points (with max seal fate), to me it feels like I am generating combo points extremely fast.
Same goes for Shiv assassination build (my latest build). The Shiv cost makes it more energy efficient, while any Shiv crit will also give you an additional combo point and energy (seal fate and focused attacks).
With combat, for the most part you are consistently getting only 1 combo point for 40 energy, or, you have a 50% chance of getting an additional combo point on crits with the SS glyph (as opposed to 100% chance with Seal Fate).
This all amounted to having to spend way more energy just on trying to keep SnD while maintaining Rupture up as well. Cut to the Chase certainly is missed, can't go wrong with refreshing SnD and Eviscerating for the price of one.
Again, this was against the test dummy without any sorts of buffs. But, in the same scenario, assassination "feels" less sluggish.
:P
They normalized Hemo which made it considerably worse, and the tree itself sort of schizophrenically jumps between Backstab and Hemo, without actually making either as good as mutilate.
HAT (with hemo) solo is tolerable, but its not something I would do for fun given an alternative. I was just to lazy to respec when not raiding while HAT. Macro in premed and short fights are actually fast, but it loses ground on long fights. HAT is great for raids with the right group comp.
Hemo is pretty much on life-support for PvP. Pretty much the only highly represented rogue spec is Mut/Prep right now. There are still some diehards that make it work, of course, but the survivability and mobility advantages it had in TBC have slimmed a lot, and Shadow Dance just gets CCed and provides less burst than Mut/Prep puts out.
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Alright, so much for that.
I guess it's back to same old boring ass combat...
Sadder still is the fact that there was a huge thread on Sub feedback on the WotLK Beta boards and it was roundly ignored.
Well, I haven't been combat for a while, but my last recollection was that with the SnD glyph I was able to do 1 SnD / 5 Rupture.... rinse repeat. This was back when Rupture was the finisher of choice instead of Eviscerate and Envenom was too much of a DPS loss compared to keeping your 5 DP poison stack intact.
Nowadays, in my experience Rupture just plain sucks ass. Even with the improved talent and the glyph it has not been more than 5% of my damage in any boss fights, which is a shame. IMO it has been relegated as supplemental DPS. Others may disagree though.
That leaves me with Eviscerating or Envenom. Its hard to spec for additional Envenom damage unless you drop to 2/5 relentless assault. That is why I went with Eviscerate instead of Envenom. But others may have a better understandin as to which poisons / finishers are better for combat
Rupture is definitely weak on its own, but with the +30% bleed damage debuff from arms warriors / feral druids it generally places just a hair under evis for me with my shiv-assassin raid build.
@Halfmex
Agreed.
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
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With the high rate of crit most people have, evis/envenom do more damage than rupture without the +30% debuff from a druid/warrior.
That said, even with the debuff, the difference may be small enough on the PTR for AR to overwhelm it.
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
What other glyphs are they going to have for rogues in 3.1?
Regretfully, the one DPS warrior we have did not go down that far in the tree. But will have that as part of his dual spec when it comes out. We also do not have a feral druid in the guild (damn you death knights!!)
So for me, even when I was assassination with Rupture Glyph and Blood Splatter, Rupture is a huge disappointment. I do not have the 2 piece-bonus yet, but 10% additional damage to an attack that was barely doing 5% of my overall damage can't be that good.
Also, run my first 25-man Naxx with the new combat fist / dagger last night. Awesome on trash pulls, not so good on boss fights, at least currently with no additional haste from lighting reflexes. The Survival Hunter was leaving me in the dust, when I am usually able to keep up with him. He is a DPS beast actually, so not too much complaining there.
I went with Deadly Mainhand / Wound Off-hand for bosses. I did not Envenom just to keep my 5 DP stack ticking all the time. But still working on a rotation. I tried the 3 SnD / 5 R / 3-4 Evis and it seemed to work OK, still felt like every 2 cycles I had to completely skip on the Eviscerate and refresh the SnD. I do have the SnD Glyph and Talent.
Percentage of damage can be sort of a misleading stat for analysis, especially with assassination specs. My rupture is just a hair under evis for damage as shiv-assassin but I evis much more often. If you have recount, I would look at your average rupture damage versus your average evis damage. There was some talk of ruptureless specs a while ago, but it involved the heaviest amounts of "cheese" in terms of specs and gear.
@Esh
Eh, dps is dps, you would probably have to plug it in to a spreadsheet to see. Rating point for rating point, expertise is one of the most valuable stats up to cap but sacrificing other stats can easily outweigh it. Also, certain specs are more impacted -- I think I have only 50 expertise rating or something stupid but because I'm shiv specced (shiv can't be dodged, and I have quick recovery for 80% energy refund on failed finishers) its not anywhere near as powerful as with other specs.
Which reminds me, I guess I have to build up expertise again for the patch.
@Brain
I don't have a list in front of me, but off the top of my head:
Mutilate - minus 5 energy
HfB - +3% damage (making it +18%)
AR - lengthed duration (forget how much, changed from shortened cooldown due to AR's cooldown being dropped to 3 minutes).
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
In other words, that's an extra 50 energy for every use of AR, which can only be used every 180 seconds at best. When I think about it that way, it doesn't sound very good.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0xZ0xV0xZebcbhGzdAzA0ot
Picked up Greed a couple nights ago and was thinking of going with that and Titansteel Shanker and using a weapon swap macro for opening on clothies and when I jump into a shadow dance. If it is determined that a swap is to cumbersome any input on where to reallocate the 4 points on dagger related talents (Opportunity and Improved Ambush) within the sub tree.
Understand that weapon swap and a relatively slow OH dagger is probably sub-optimal but I thought the spec looked kind of interesting.
If someone has a link to a more cookie-cutter fist based PvP build I would be interested in seeing that as well.
Thanks
Deep sub pvp specs, such as they are, are generally backstab based. The normalization of hemo essentially gutted the attack, and taking the talents to make it ok again improve backstab even more (and Dance clearly favors a dagger).
If you're really set on not using a MH dagger, you could always try a combat pvp build. It lacks the burst of mut, but can still function pretty well if the rest of your team has decent CC to make up for your lack of mobility (mut also lacks mobility but the longer the fight, the more important it is and mut's burst shortens fights).
edit: to be good at combat PvP you have to be *really* technically good at rogue PvP in general -- particularly using throwing spec to wreck casters' days.
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
Damn Blizz to hell. I want to Hemo someone in the face with my voltron fitst.
As stated before, combat is absolutely great for trash AoE (nothing better than having a pack of 6-9 mobs, hitting adrenaline rush and spam Fan of Knives, followed up by Blade Flurry and Killing Spree). For boss fights, the DPS is just nowhere near the Shiv Build.
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
What kind of DPS are you seeing on Patchwerk with a shiv build. I was under the impression that Mut was still on top (excluding HaT hax).
Do you have a link to a combat PvP spec? Here is what I came up with (the 3/5 LR is to reflect what the new talent will be). Wasn't sure if going deep into Sub was better than getting Vigor is Assass and also wasn't sure how helpful the stealth talents would be.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0oZMxV0xcxoruRxRtt0M
EDIT: Two clarifications - I have points in preceision but if it is not needed for PvP I would move to Imp Gouge, Parry, SnD or something like that. Also, I am guessing moving 2 points from sub tree to pick up Endurance is probably a better choice but wasn't sure
EDIT: If I don't need precision and if stealth enhancing talents are not important for Combat PvP - I would probably go this way
http://http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=fhe0oZGx0bxcxorurxRtx0b
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
As far as my own experience, I was running mutilate until about 2 weeks ago. When I switched to the Shiv spec, I went from being No 4-6 on DPS in the guild, to consistently being No 2 on boss fights. By my ROUGH estimations, I think I was doing about 300-500 DPS more with Shiv build, fully raid buffed.
Last week I pulled 4150 DPS on Patchwerk as Assasi Shiv spec. Also, we use the strategy where melee has to run back to the poison river to reduce our hit points, so that could be a bit higher.
This week as combat, I was pulling 3500 DPS on the same boss. Granted, group composition was different, but not 650 DPS different in my opinion.
I don't know, those are my observations. For me, until patch hits, I'm going back to Assassination Shiv spec. Once we get the new talents, I will give combat fist / dagger another look.
Woooo
<.<
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
There's a ... strat for reducing your hitpoints? Three tanks, everyone else removes fort/commanding shout. No need to do anything to your hitpoints. That is silly. I guess it's hard for me to take your numbers and mix them in with ours. Our rogues are consistently at 5k+ on Patch, and they are both Mut.
EDIT: Do you have 20% haste (Windfury Totem/Improved Icy Talons)? If not, you're needlessly gimping your melee. My DPS drops by over 1k without WF/IIT. YMMV, as I'm not a rogue, but it's huge for every melee class.
Granted its only by a couple hundred dps or so, but the extra control of CP is nice.
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
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Link to wws/EJ thread/anything?
Patchwerk - 3/18/2009
Rogue - Aumni (no, not the PA Aumni) - DPS 5564
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
This--along with beating a better-geared mut rogue today in a lot of fights in naxx10--is why I am shiv.
Also, I was thinking combo points need to work like they did in D2: Stack them on us, not the target. This is why we get fucked over in pulls with lots of weak trash, because we don't have time to get five points up before the mob is dead. Combined with Cut to the Chase, we're dropping SnD, too. This is bullshit. Just make the points expire after 10 seconds of no use or something.
I don't know what was going on with the forums yesterday...
Anyway, 5573 DPS on a 2 minute Patchwerk is less impressive than 5564 DPS on a 3 minute Patchwerk. I remain unconvinced.
Well, DPS is DPS, no matter how long the fight is. And if you remain unconvinced then have your rogue try the Shiv spec and see what numbers he gets. There have been several posters on these boards giving their results as Mutilate vs. Shiv, and most results point to Shiv being superior DPS at the moment.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Uldum&n=Ruriko
Yes, I know my MH isn't enchanted, I'm poor and I know the minute I spend the cash to enchant it something else is going to drop. I'm doing a SnD, Rup, Evisc, rotation.
I have Anarchy in my bank. I was thinking of trying out a Mutilate build? Would that be the most effective for double daggers in a raid environment? Also, which should I MH? Anarchy or Webbed Death?
Halp. I wants more deepz.
Indeed, and chances are, my 5500 DPS Mut rogue would have done a fair amount more on a 2 minute fight as opposed to a 3 minute fight. Consider Heroism/Trinket uptime on a fight that short.
You are diverging from the point of the post, which was to show that Shiv spec is higher DPS than Mutilate. No one is debating your rogue's DPS, what we are saying is that he would do even higher DPS as Shiv spec.