TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
M-Day was supposed to be big but everyone ignored it. To make matters worse, editorial didn't have the balls to de-power big name mutants to make it feel important. Iceman was originally supposed to lose his powers permanently, but they gave them back to him because Milligan wanted to use him still. Warren was supposed to lose his wings but they turned at the last second with the 198 on that.
Really, Carey started being meaningful with M-Day with his X-Men run. X-Men Annual #2 got the ball rolling and answered the question of "why not just have kids, they'll have the genes." Then he did Endangered Species, and then Messiah Complex, now Fraction is looking to go somewhere with the story with his X-Club.
5 years later, we start to see emphasis on what they are going to do to fix things.
Even now, Pietro has his powers back (yay!) because he believed in himself and saw some stupid butterfly Layla Miller hallucination (what?!).
Edit: On paper, M-Day looks great. But it's hard to have the balls to take powers from big name characters, because people are going to complain no matter what. It seems like only the secondary characters really suffered for it. Moonstar was arguably one of the biggest names to lose their powers. They really had to go all or nothing, but even if they had gone "Hey guys, Cyclops doesn't have his powers anymore!" it just would have gotten retconned eventually and been worse for the ware.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
I read that one-shot, and it was good because PAD Quicksilver is always good, but shit, the Terrigan crystals were for nothing then? Deep down, all the mutants still have their powers they just have to believe in themselves again?
It was a good one shot, and if you kind of glossed over how he got them back, it was still pretty solid. It also served to bring him into Mighty Avengers, if he ends up staying there (which I think is probable, but I could be wrong). I just wish PAD could have thought of a better way to bring his powers back, because it seems inconsistent.
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sportzboytjwsqueeeeeezzeeeesome more tax breaks outRegistered Userregular
Even now, Pietro has his powers back (yay!) because he believed in himself and saw some stupid butterfly Layla Miller hallucination (what?!).
Edit: On paper, M-Day looks great. But it's hard to have the balls to take powers from big name characters, because people are going to complain no matter what. It seems like only the secondary characters really suffered for it. Moonstar was arguably one of the biggest names to lose their powers. They really had to go all or nothing, but even if they had gone "Hey guys, Cyclops doesn't have his powers anymore!" it just would have gotten retconned eventually and been worse for the ware.
I said this a while back, but people shouted me down with cries of, "But so-and-so lost them! He was REALLY important that one issue five years ago!"
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Walkerdog on MTGO
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
"Yeah but Blobz don't. 95% of da kidz we teaching don't have powerz no more either except them all on our teamz who we rgular interakt wif."
"Oh hai we heve Sentinals on our lawnz guyz, we r perzecuted agains!"
Post M-Day was a bit like those sentences. Coherent in some places but completely worthless.
Wow that's... that's such a very unbiased way of presenting it. Bravo!
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
I know, right?
I'm just going by what I remember back then with the titles:
-Claremont did little with it, focusing more on Rachel and the Shiar killing Jean's family and Psylocke's brother. That was also when he had a stroke too so Bedard filled in I think.
-Peter Miligan just had a bad run, and brought back Apocalypse without ever explaining it or having Cyclops be totally pissed off (Apocalypse's soul was destroyed by Cable at the end of Search for Cyclops, what, magic brought him back?). It was right around that time I came to the conclusion editors don't do shit in comics.
-New X-Men was just a bloodbath, completely unnecessary. Then they went to limbo. Skottie Young has good art though.
-Sentinel Squad ONE had jack all relevance and were killed off in Messiah Complex.
-New Excalibur was fighting evil twins of each other
-Astonishing X-Men mentioned it in one page then they went off to another world filled with delays.
TexiKen on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Quicksilver tries to save the world by stopping the guy from bringing C'thon back. Was mostly a wild goose chase to lead Quicksilver into the cavern of his own free will, so the god-dude could free himself from the book and get into Quicksilver's body as a host. This trapped Quicksilver's soul or spirit or whatever in the book.
The best thing to come out of House of M was X-Factor, no doubt.
Also also: I think the biggest hero character to lose powers from M day was maybe Chamber but then he had something done to him and now who the hell knows what he's up to.
I was about to say. I couldn't care less about House of M, except that it set up the excellent X-Factor run. I care 10,000 times more about Rictor now than I ever did about Avalanche before.
I was about to say. I couldn't care less about House of M, except that it set up the excellent X-Factor run. I care 10,000 times more about Rictor now than I ever did about Avalanche before.
I'm not sure if I'm understanding your post correctly, but Rictor and Avalanche are two different people.
I was about to say. I couldn't care less about House of M, except that it set up the excellent X-Factor run. I care 10,000 times more about Rictor now than I ever did about Avalanche before.
I'm not sure if I'm understanding your post correctly, but Rictor and Avalanche are two different people.
My bad. Avalanche was the only earthquake-based mutant I knew about, so I assumed the two were the same guy.
Who knew that generating earthquakes was a generic enough power to have several of them running around?
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
Just once I'd like someone to have a name that's completely antithematic with their abilities.
I was about to say. I couldn't care less about House of M, except that it set up the excellent X-Factor run. I care 10,000 times more about Rictor now than I ever did about Avalanche before.
I'm not sure if I'm understanding your post correctly, but Rictor and Avalanche are two different people.
My bad. Avalanche was the only earthquake-based mutant I knew about, so I assumed the two were the same guy.
Who knew that generating earthquakes was a generic enough power to have several of them running around?
That's not either of their powers.
Avalanche is able to move stone, like Terra in D.C. Rictor generates vibration (and has been shown doing some rather clever things with sensing vibration, too, e.g. apparently being able to sense the natural movements of the earth like Storm senses weather, before being depowered).
Proving the point that Decimation was handled poorly. Thank you, Geebs.
The problem is that every event in the Marvel universe has supposedly been connected since Disassembled or whatever, but they've really only been addressed somewhat superficially and it looks like very little thought was actually put into each of them. Disassembled had this problem, Civil War had this problem, Dark Reign has this problem. It's irritating.
On another note, Bendis' use of pet characters is extremely irritating.
Proving the point that Decimation was handled poorly. Thank you, Geebs.
The problem is that every event in the Marvel universe has supposedly been connected since Disassembled or whatever, but they've really only been addressed somewhat superficially and it looks like very little thought was actually put into each of them. Disassembled had this problem, Civil War had this problem, Dark Reign has this problem. It's irritating.
On another note, Bendis' use of pet characters is extremely irritating.
What problem exactly r u saying these events had? don't get me wrong other than te civil war i've found these long drawn out 6 month events to be annoying. but what is the problem? and what connection? i don't think each of the events are connected anymore than you can acknowledge that you have to go through grade 3 to get to grade 4. Its not like bendis or whoever was saying we have to do civil war so we can get to dark reign.
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited March 2009
For Gods' sakes, stop that!
And the problems? Well, an example is that the SHRA has never been portrayed as consistent, Iron Man turned into a straw man of a fascist dick, Richards ignored his family, the replacements of Secret Invasion were done kinda haphazardly, the Secret Invasion series itself was at most 3 issues of material stretched to 7 issues, and as for Dark Reign, in what universe can someone convicted of multiple murders and a bonafide psychopath even approach the security clearances needed for the Thunderbolts (yes, I do realize Stark was controlling him with nanomachines. It still doesn't make any sense), much less the Director of Super Human Affairs? As just a few off the top of my head. Bendis was saying that everything from Disassembled to Secret Invasion had been plotted together beforehand. Frankly, I think that was crap, but whatever.
And the problems? Well, an example is that the SHRA has never been portrayed as consistent, Iron Man turned into a straw man of a fascist dick, Richards ignored his family, the replacements of Secret Invasion were done kinda haphazardly, the Secret Invasion series itself was at most 3 issues of material stretched to 7 issues, and as for Dark Reign, in what universe can someone convicted of multiple murders and a bonafide psychopath even approach the security clearances needed for the Thunderbolts (yes, I do realize Stark was controlling him with nanomachines. It still doesn't make any sense), much less the Director of Super Human Affairs? As just a few off the top of my head. Bendis was saying that everything from Disassembled to Secret Invasion had been plotted together beforehand. Frankly, I think that was crap, but whatever.
SHRA falls on Brevoort's feet. Actually, a lot of those things fall at Brevoort's feet. He's not a good editor, at least from most of the books I've read since coming back to comics in 2001. He's liked by everyone, but so is Loeb, and that shouldn't be a reason for getting important gigs. I think the Waid FF run might be his highpoint.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
And the problems? Well, an example is that the SHRA has never been portrayed as consistent, Iron Man turned into a straw man of a fascist dick, Richards ignored his family, the replacements of Secret Invasion were done kinda haphazardly, the Secret Invasion series itself was at most 3 issues of material stretched to 7 issues, and as for Dark Reign, in what universe can someone convicted of multiple murders and a bonafide psychopath even approach the security clearances needed for the Thunderbolts (yes, I do realize Stark was controlling him with nanomachines. It still doesn't make any sense), much less the Director of Super Human Affairs? As just a few off the top of my head. Bendis was saying that everything from Disassembled to Secret Invasion had been plotted together beforehand. Frankly, I think that was crap, but whatever.
SHRA falls on Brevoort's feet. Actually, a lot of those things fall at Brevoort's feet. He's not a good editor, at least from most of the books I've read since coming back to comics in 2001. He's liked by everyone, but so is Loeb, and that shouldn't be a reason for getting important gigs. I think the Waid FF run might be his highpoint.
My biggest problem with the Big Two right now just seems to be that a writer is not at the helm. Please note, by the way, that this rant is mostly talking about the core books of each company. The side books (like, say, Marvel Cosmic, or a whole bunch of DC titles before they were canceled) seem to be able to avoid what I am about to complain about.
With Marvel, we now basically have a more-than-annual event cycle. Which sucks. There is no time for the status quo to establish itself, before it's wiped away. The events themselves aren't really addressed with a great amount of depth (I was really let down by SI, for example) and it seems like there's this "let's move on, keep going, who cares" type of mentality going for some of the books. I'm not going to address the most egregious editorial mandate I've ever heard of, but let's just say I'm aware of it, and I'm not a fan. On top of all this, they really seem to be missing opportunities for great stories. Instead of having another awesome Strange miniseries, for example, he was stuck in New Avangers doing basically nothing (I don't like how Bendis writes big teamup books, and I've already mentioned my issue with pet characters, so let's move on). With their central properties, (that is, Avenegers stuff (including Spidey) and X-stuff) they just seem to be not on the ball. Employing Loeb is a pure business decision I understand because he does sell (although I share the opinion that he sells because he's given awesome artists and properties) but Land should not have a renewed contract. He should not be employed as an artist until he starts making his own orignal art. Fuck, at least Liefeld drew his own shit!
With DC, there seems to be an honest contempt for the fanbase, or something. Between how Spoiler and Batgirl were recently treated (although Spoiler returned, so there is something) and how the fans of said characters were treated, there is something wrong. This isn't to mention the whole clusterfuck with Final Crisis (I am not talking about the 7 books here, but the event as a whole).Further, there's this strange fixation with the "iconic" version of characters, which is weird coming from the House known for its legacy heroes. Between that and Geoff Johns and such Silver Age fanboyism (although he writes good stuff) I'm afraid that DC is going to start stagnating. We can't really go anywhere if we only have the "iconic" version of heroes, and they become iconic because new stories are written about them that are really good, but there are so many limiting factors that it becomes somewhat ridiculous. I am excited about the Newsprint thing, though. I'm hoping that changes things around a lot.
The biggest problems right now have to do with distribution and price. Both marvel and DC need to get the fuck on Digital Distribution for singles much more than the halfassed whatever they have now. They need to make it easy to subscribe, cheaper, and they need to add great deals. Essentially, they need to start copying Steam. This Weekend Only! Buy the entire run of Young Justice for $10, normal price $20! Not to mention Sandman or Starman. And maybe if you subscribe above a certain amount you get options like the sketches, scripts, concepts, and notes of one of the comics you've subscribed to. Make your account easy to manage, so you can do arrange your archive by character, writer, artist, book or whatever.
And on the paper front, you need to get your shit together. Maybe you stop printing on the superhighquality glossies except for TPBs. Heck (and here I show my ignorance of the business model) sell singles digitally, and only sell TPBs and Absolutes and the like in physical form! Maybe (and this is why the DC newsprint thing fills me with some hope) have a bunch of monthlies together uncolored, on cheap paper, just like Manga! Find some way to get your stuff back in the Supermarkets and bookstores and whatnot.
I know this is getting a bit off-topic for this thread but I just thought I'd throw in some comments about big event aftermaths. I can't really comment of Decimation as I only read Son of M but to be honest I thought the SHRA was explained well enough to my liking. All heroes have to be registered and young or new heroes have to go train at Camp Hammond and either wash out or make the 50 state initiative. Marvel could have done a better job with it don't get me wrong but I can understand them not wanting to keep harping on the concept in every book. As for Dark Reign and Osborn's rise to power, Bendis has stated that assholes get into power all the time but I do agree that a sane world would never let Osborn anywhere near that level of power. Apparently though the next few issues of Dark Avengers and Punisher will focus on the general public showing doubts about Osborn.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I know this is getting a bit off-topic for this thread but I just thought I'd throw in some comments about big event aftermaths. I can't really comment of Decimation as I only read Son of M but to be honest I thought the SHRA was explained well enough to my liking. All heroes have to be registered and young or new heroes have to go train at Camp Hammond and either wash out or make the 50 state initiative. Marvel could have done a better job with it don't get me wrong but I can understand them not wanting to keep harping on the concept in every book. As for Dark Reign and Osborn's rise to power, Bendis has stated that assholes get into power all the time but I do agree that a sane world would never let Osborn anywhere near that level of power. Apparently though the next few issues of Dark Avengers and Punisher will focus on the general public showing doubts about Osborn.
The thing wrong about the SHRA is it's never explained exactly why minors are allowed to be drafted. We don't draft anyone under 18, and yet there's an exception if you have powers for some reason. Now, this is hugely unconstitutional. And Stark should have known that, and SHIELD should not have been trying to fuck over Cap, and basically a lot of things that didn't make sense happened and were glossed over. Camp Hammond should essentially not exist, especially after it's become clear to everyone there that the trainers honestly don't give a fuck.
As for Dark Reign, again, it'd be impossible for Osborn to even approach getting the appropriate security clearances for the job of leading the Thunderbolts, much less a Cabinet position, nanos or not. Another instance of something making no sense being glossed over. Just because Ellis made it awesome doesn't mean it makes sense or is consistent with the way the world presumably works.
Lest we forget, suspension of disbelief is kind of important in comics.
Yes, but internal consistency is vital to any story, and this one is concerned with how the laws work.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited March 2009
But suspension of the story can't really work. Going back to Decimation, everyone ignored it for a while, save X-Factor.
On top of it, all the mutants who were on the team before M-Day were still mutants afterwards, save for 5? 6? And they weren't even the big names.
You let us buy into a magical macguffin to reset mutants in the world, fine. But to act like it only occurred to those people who we've never seen and will never see is just too much. Those mutants who were right there when Strange cast his protection spell, fine. But all the other ones should have lost their powers.
Posts
Really, Carey started being meaningful with M-Day with his X-Men run. X-Men Annual #2 got the ball rolling and answered the question of "why not just have kids, they'll have the genes." Then he did Endangered Species, and then Messiah Complex, now Fraction is looking to go somewhere with the story with his X-Club.
5 years later, we start to see emphasis on what they are going to do to fix things.
"Hai guyz do you have powerz?"
"Yeah but Blobz don't. 95% of da kidz we teaching don't have powerz no more either except them all on our teamz who we rgular interakt wif."
"Oh hai we heve Sentinals on our lawnz guyz, we r perzecuted agains!"
Post M-Day was a bit like those sentences. Coherent in some places but completely worthless.
Edit: On paper, M-Day looks great. But it's hard to have the balls to take powers from big name characters, because people are going to complain no matter what. It seems like only the secondary characters really suffered for it. Moonstar was arguably one of the biggest names to lose their powers. They really had to go all or nothing, but even if they had gone "Hey guys, Cyclops doesn't have his powers anymore!" it just would have gotten retconned eventually and been worse for the ware.
I said this a while back, but people shouted me down with cries of, "But so-and-so lost them! He was REALLY important that one issue five years ago!"
TylerJ on League of Legends (it's free and fun!)
Wow that's... that's such a very unbiased way of presenting it. Bravo!
I'm just going by what I remember back then with the titles:
-Claremont did little with it, focusing more on Rachel and the Shiar killing Jean's family and Psylocke's brother. That was also when he had a stroke too so Bedard filled in I think.
-Peter Miligan just had a bad run, and brought back Apocalypse without ever explaining it or having Cyclops be totally pissed off (Apocalypse's soul was destroyed by Cable at the end of Search for Cyclops, what, magic brought him back?). It was right around that time I came to the conclusion editors don't do shit in comics.
-New X-Men was just a bloodbath, completely unnecessary. Then they went to limbo. Skottie Young has good art though.
-Sentinel Squad ONE had jack all relevance and were killed off in Messiah Complex.
-New Excalibur was fighting evil twins of each other
-Astonishing X-Men mentioned it in one page then they went off to another world filled with delays.
Pretty sure they said that!
The best thing to come out of House of M was X-Factor, no doubt.
Also also: I think the biggest hero character to lose powers from M day was maybe Chamber but then he had something done to him and now who the hell knows what he's up to.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
I'm not sure if I'm understanding your post correctly, but Rictor and Avalanche are two different people.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
My bad. Avalanche was the only earthquake-based mutant I knew about, so I assumed the two were the same guy.
Who knew that generating earthquakes was a generic enough power to have several of them running around?
That's not either of their powers.
Avalanche is able to move stone, like Terra in D.C. Rictor generates vibration (and has been shown doing some rather clever things with sensing vibration, too, e.g. apparently being able to sense the natural movements of the earth like Storm senses weather, before being depowered).
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
oh hai cud u not poast liek dis evar again
On another note, Bendis' use of pet characters is extremely irritating.
What problem exactly r u saying these events had? don't get me wrong other than te civil war i've found these long drawn out 6 month events to be annoying. but what is the problem? and what connection? i don't think each of the events are connected anymore than you can acknowledge that you have to go through grade 3 to get to grade 4. Its not like bendis or whoever was saying we have to do civil war so we can get to dark reign.
And the problems? Well, an example is that the SHRA has never been portrayed as consistent, Iron Man turned into a straw man of a fascist dick, Richards ignored his family, the replacements of Secret Invasion were done kinda haphazardly, the Secret Invasion series itself was at most 3 issues of material stretched to 7 issues, and as for Dark Reign, in what universe can someone convicted of multiple murders and a bonafide psychopath even approach the security clearances needed for the Thunderbolts (yes, I do realize Stark was controlling him with nanomachines. It still doesn't make any sense), much less the Director of Super Human Affairs? As just a few off the top of my head. Bendis was saying that everything from Disassembled to Secret Invasion had been plotted together beforehand. Frankly, I think that was crap, but whatever.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Negasonic Teenage Warhead.
SHRA falls on Brevoort's feet. Actually, a lot of those things fall at Brevoort's feet. He's not a good editor, at least from most of the books I've read since coming back to comics in 2001. He's liked by everyone, but so is Loeb, and that shouldn't be a reason for getting important gigs. I think the Waid FF run might be his highpoint.
My biggest problem with the Big Two right now just seems to be that a writer is not at the helm. Please note, by the way, that this rant is mostly talking about the core books of each company. The side books (like, say, Marvel Cosmic, or a whole bunch of DC titles before they were canceled) seem to be able to avoid what I am about to complain about.
With Marvel, we now basically have a more-than-annual event cycle. Which sucks. There is no time for the status quo to establish itself, before it's wiped away. The events themselves aren't really addressed with a great amount of depth (I was really let down by SI, for example) and it seems like there's this "let's move on, keep going, who cares" type of mentality going for some of the books. I'm not going to address the most egregious editorial mandate I've ever heard of, but let's just say I'm aware of it, and I'm not a fan. On top of all this, they really seem to be missing opportunities for great stories. Instead of having another awesome Strange miniseries, for example, he was stuck in New Avangers doing basically nothing (I don't like how Bendis writes big teamup books, and I've already mentioned my issue with pet characters, so let's move on). With their central properties, (that is, Avenegers stuff (including Spidey) and X-stuff) they just seem to be not on the ball. Employing Loeb is a pure business decision I understand because he does sell (although I share the opinion that he sells because he's given awesome artists and properties) but Land should not have a renewed contract. He should not be employed as an artist until he starts making his own orignal art. Fuck, at least Liefeld drew his own shit!
With DC, there seems to be an honest contempt for the fanbase, or something. Between how Spoiler and Batgirl were recently treated (although Spoiler returned, so there is something) and how the fans of said characters were treated, there is something wrong. This isn't to mention the whole clusterfuck with Final Crisis (I am not talking about the 7 books here, but the event as a whole).Further, there's this strange fixation with the "iconic" version of characters, which is weird coming from the House known for its legacy heroes. Between that and Geoff Johns and such Silver Age fanboyism (although he writes good stuff) I'm afraid that DC is going to start stagnating. We can't really go anywhere if we only have the "iconic" version of heroes, and they become iconic because new stories are written about them that are really good, but there are so many limiting factors that it becomes somewhat ridiculous. I am excited about the Newsprint thing, though. I'm hoping that changes things around a lot.
The biggest problems right now have to do with distribution and price. Both marvel and DC need to get the fuck on Digital Distribution for singles much more than the halfassed whatever they have now. They need to make it easy to subscribe, cheaper, and they need to add great deals. Essentially, they need to start copying Steam. This Weekend Only! Buy the entire run of Young Justice for $10, normal price $20! Not to mention Sandman or Starman. And maybe if you subscribe above a certain amount you get options like the sketches, scripts, concepts, and notes of one of the comics you've subscribed to. Make your account easy to manage, so you can do arrange your archive by character, writer, artist, book or whatever.
And on the paper front, you need to get your shit together. Maybe you stop printing on the superhighquality glossies except for TPBs. Heck (and here I show my ignorance of the business model) sell singles digitally, and only sell TPBs and Absolutes and the like in physical form! Maybe (and this is why the DC newsprint thing fills me with some hope) have a bunch of monthlies together uncolored, on cheap paper, just like Manga! Find some way to get your stuff back in the Supermarkets and bookstores and whatnot.
As for Dark Reign, again, it'd be impossible for Osborn to even approach getting the appropriate security clearances for the job of leading the Thunderbolts, much less a Cabinet position, nanos or not. Another instance of something making no sense being glossed over. Just because Ellis made it awesome doesn't mean it makes sense or is consistent with the way the world presumably works.
On top of it, all the mutants who were on the team before M-Day were still mutants afterwards, save for 5? 6? And they weren't even the big names.
You let us buy into a magical macguffin to reset mutants in the world, fine. But to act like it only occurred to those people who we've never seen and will never see is just too much. Those mutants who were right there when Strange cast his protection spell, fine. But all the other ones should have lost their powers.