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Pakistan, Cross-border Raids, and You
Heartlash
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So I figured I'd make an offshoot thread since this occupied some serious discussion time in the American Presidency thread. US forces have started attacking locations in which they believe the Taliban or Al Qaeda are hiding in Pakistan without permission from the Pakistani government. This has led to heightened regional tensions, enemy and civilian casualties, and now reports of the Pakistani Army firing on US helicopters.
What do you think of the situation? Is it a necessary move? Or will heightened tensions just breed more militants?
Two American OH-58 reconnaissance helicopters, known as Kiowas, were on a routine afternoon patrol in the eastern province of Khost when they received small arms fire from a Pakistani border post, said Tech Sgt. Kevin Wallace, a U.S. military spokesman. There was no damage to aircraft or crew, officials said.
"They did not cross the border and they did not fire back," Wallace said.
U.S. forces and Pakistan's military "are working together to resolve the matter," a NATO statement said.
The U.S. has stepped up attacks on suspected militants in the frontier area, mostly by missiles fired from unmanned drones operating from Afghanistan. The incursions — especially a ground raid into South Waziristan by American commandos Sept. 3 — have angered many Pakistanis.
What do you think of the situation? Is it a necessary move? Or will heightened tensions just breed more militants?
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The other side is that while everybody is negotiating/stalling/whatever people are dying and will continue to die as a result of Pakistan not having control of its border.
The Pakistanis have had years to clean out the terrorist strongholds in the western part of their country. They have failed to do so and, generally, haven't even looked that interested in attempting it.
So bring on the UAVs with Hellfires and bring on the hunter-killer squads. It's about time we trailed this particular rabid animal to his lair and finished the job.
B-b-b-but territorial integrity!
Like the territorial integrity shown by raiders moving in to cause havoc in Afghanistan and then fleeing to safety in Pakistan?
I should state, for the record, that I don't like the increase in tensions. More tension is not what we need in the world these days.
The raiders aren't associated or sanctioned by Pakistan.
If Pakistan forcibly says "no" to doing stuff across their border, and they're willing to fire on you to make sure of that, then you don't go across their border. I'm sure there would be other means of pressuring them into at least getting some cooperation pact in that area, or getting some international recognition and support
The Pakistani government risked being overthrown by cooperating with the United States. In Pakistan Osama bin Laden has far more popular support than George Bush.
This right here. Our government has a vital responsibility to eliminate threats to our citizens, and the people being targeted are like the definition of that. If Pakistan doesn't want to play ball and clean up their mess, we'll fucking do it for them, and they can thank us for not being messier about it when we're done.
All the more reason to keep running covert ops across the border. If Americans aren't going to get the cooperation they need from the Pakistani government or the Pakistani army, then we do it without them.
They had their chance and they sat on their hands.
You're right. They're not sanctioned by Pakistan. Diplomatic options should be pursued to see if we can convince them that policing their borders and working to stop incursions from their side would be helpful for everybody.
Failing that, there are going to be incursions into their territory if attacks originating from their territory continue.
Huh? What citizens?
Again, lets just ignore the territorial integrity the administration seems to uphold to such a high standard and perform further military excursions into other Middle Eastern states. This will certainly wipe out the issue and completely win over the people of Pakistan
http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2008/09/19/us-bin-laden-losing-support-in-pakistan-pew-report/
Sure, there's support there, but it is dwindling and isn't at a state where it is threatening. You think exerting more American influence in that area is going to lessen the support for Osama?
It is my understanding that these raids are being performed against the same terrorist network that struck us on 9/11. If we have information that could lead us to capturing or killing those responsible for that, it would be negligent not to do so.
Furthermore, if Pakistan doesn't want to step up and stop these guys from stirring up trouble in Afghanistan, then they have no room to bitch at us when we do it for them.
For those who don't know the ISI is the Pakistanti intelligence service, for a large number of years they provided support, weapons, money etc to the Taliban and Islamic fundamentalists.
There are lots of ties between them and the fundamentalists. A prime example of this is that during the height of intelligence sharing between the ISI and NATO countries during the first few years in Afghanistan whenever the US/NATO shared intelligence it always managed to end up in the hands of the Taliban/Al-Qaeda.
For example, the US/NATO would provide the ISI with details of where a known terrorist was in Pakistan and all of a sudden they'd disappear shortly after the information was provided to the ISI.
What people need to remember is that the Taliban were propped up by Pakistan for a large number of years as Pakistan saw them as a buffer between themselves and Iran/Russia. There's lots of people in Pakistan both civilian, military and intelligence who support Al-Qaeda.
It's sad but these cross border raids as much as they may make Pakistan pissed off are probably the best way to capture and kill militants. Of course, it could potentially be used as a recruiting signal for more militants.
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This is the big concern for me. Place yourself in the position of a citizen in that region. The US comes in without your country's consent, and "accidentally" kills 20 people in your village.
What are you gonna do?
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I'd like to think the answer is "kill or expel the foreign terrorists who are hiding behind the people in my village", but I think a certain amount of anti-American sentiment is inevitable.
But the bottom line is that the terrorists responsible for 9/11 and the government that supported them are hiding in Waziristan. We have tried to get Pakistan and the ISI to root them out for years. They haven't done much in the way of even looking like they're interested in doing so.
They've forced our hand.
Not let terrorists live in my village.
I actually think they tried doing that, but then the Taliban and Al-Qaeda went round killing all the local tribal leaders who opposed them.
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Sure would be nice if some large, armed force did something about that...
I especially like this comment from a Pakistani spokesman:
"The helicopters passed over our border post and were well within Pakistan territory" at the time that "security forces fired anticipatory warning shots," the Pakistani statement said."
You can interpret this to : "We shot at them intentionally but didn't manage to shoot them down"
Or you can further trust the propaganda arm: "They are flares," he said in response to a question asking why the Pakistani military was firing on NATO helicopters. "Just to make sure that they know they crossed the border line."
Flares. Right. With rocket propulsion systems. That look just like SA-7 or RPG contrails...
Edit:ISAF says they took small arms fire......so bullet propulsion systems on those neato warning flares.
Except that "they," in the sense of the innocent Pakistani people who are inevitably going to get blown up, haven't actually done much of anything. Except get the carrot and stick from one side, and blown up by the other side. Figure out which side of the argument you think they're going to come down on, and then decide whether or not these cross-border raids are a productive strategy.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
We are fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan, not Al-Queda. The Taliban are Afghanis, specifically Pashtun Afghanis. They are crossing the political border into Pakistan, but as you can see in this map, they are staying within the Pashtun homeland. When they cross into Pakistan they meet villages full of people the same ethnicity as them.
Also, before you say "Pakistan hasn't tried to help", keep in mind that this area of their country is barely in their control. People say "lolussr" when there is talk about invading Afghanistan, since they failed in the 80's to pacify the region, but not even Pakistan has been able to pacify their own Pashtun tribelands. To them it has never been worth the cost in money and lives to keep that region under government control, and just as the USSR learned, we should learn it's not worth it either.
TL;DR We are making cross border raids to kill Afghani Pashtun tribesmen in the Pashtun tribeland region of Pakistan without asking Pakistan.
I think this is a terrible idea. Also, Cambodia anyone? EDIT: You motherfuckers better not get me into a war with Pakistan.
The corollary to this is that attacking from the sovereign soil of a country into another is also an act of war. That's what these guys are doing, why are we not allowed to defend ourselves?
If there were a group of people hiding out in backwoods Alaska, who made a big deal of traveling into Canada to disrupt the government, and Canada asked us to do something about it, and we either decided not to or were incapable of doing so, I wouldn't raise a huge stink over them deciding to do so. I mean, it would suck, but it certainly wouldn't seem outrageous.
Also, we're still talking about the same Taliban that was supporting Osama Bin Laden, right? They're is a reason we aren't buddies with them, after all.
Combine this with the fact that the "War on Terror" is in many ways a war of ideas and perception and you realize how damaging this sort of activity is. In order to de-radicalize a region, we have to prove that we're the good guys.
If we don't convince the Pakistani government to allow us to do this (which, btw, we are in the process of doing, and is definitely an attainable goal) we should not be doing it.
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Guess what? If the people who declared war on America didn't use them for human shields, they wouldn't be getting blown up. I don't see how you think that sitting on the Afghan side of the border and saying "Welp, we can't go get them because we might hurt their human shields" is any sort of rational answer.
Hahaha
Oh wow.
Yes, performing incursions into Pakistan and killing civilians because 'welp they declared war on Amer-kuh!' is going to help the US's cause.
They're not attacking from within Pakistan, but using it as a headquarters type area because the people there aren't going to rat them out
Al Qaeda declared war on America when they crashed planes into our buildings. The Taliban provided a friendly regime from which to base their operations. They are collusive allies.
If you think that US forces are staging raids into Pakistan because they are bored and looking for some ragheads to shoot up, you really need a fucking reality check.
Forgive me if I fail to see the difference.
No, Lord Yod, you don't get it. There are civilians in Pakistan. If we go root out those terrorists, civilians might be hurt! Please, won't someone think of the civilians?
It's all about guerrilla wars and how they are impossible to win. When it was first published the various state and military bodies of the US bought every copy thinking it was a manual on how to win whereas it explained the difficulties that an unknown enemy can inflict on an organised military body.
Throughout history foreign forces, invaders or invited, have always had great difficulties dealing with guerilla groups when the organised forces' mission was not to annex or colonize the territory they were trying to control.
Basically, it's the culture that supports the guerillas and unless the culture is changed the more aggression shown by the foreigner to the locals will only breed more guerrillas who have far more local knowledge, sympathy and support the foreigners ever will - no matter how many baseball games you set up against the villagers. You can't replace a few thousand years of culture in a decade, a generation or a century. You may be able to integrate elements that appeal to the locals but you wont entirely replace them unless your aim is to replace the population with colonists from your own.
If you've studied history then maybe you need only go back to the Vietnam War and the US incursion into Cambodia. Difficult terrain and a different culture. They'll smile and take all the presents you offer them but they wont be sorry to see you go. Life will go on for them the way it always has for centuries.
In Afghanistan the British and Russians didn't last and the US is using the same methods.
And the argument that the US should attack anyone who harbours terrorist who attack them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_pharmaceutical_factory
It's exactly that mentality and actions that led to 9/11.
And Pakistan has nukes.
Hello....anyone listening to something other than voices of hate and fear out there?
Hello...
You can't go in and escalate the violence in another sovereign nation's territory, especially when they tell you to get out. It doesn't matter how many scary terrorists there are in there
Ya rite lol they just brown ppl anyway
Terrorists are civilians, lets not forget. We kill 20 terrorists, we just killed 20 civilians. We bomb a town, kill 15 "terrorists" and 5 guys hanging out to chat about killing infidels we just killed 20 civilians.
If Pakistan wont clean up its backyard, we will. If they are so damn concerned with people crossing their borders perhaps they should be working to keep the terrorists on their side of the border, as opposed to crossing over and shooting at our troops.
Oh, and Pakistan has quite a few nukes.
Conclusion: Cross border raids could be a pretty bad idea.
Funny, I seem to recall your reasoning for these attacks being 9/11.
You know, when civilians got killed?
Reality check: Crossing across the border without Pakistan's consent is going to increase anti-American feeling in the region. This makes it HARDER for the government there to do anything about the terrorists there. It also makes the Islamic party in Pakistan- again, quite anti-American- more popular.
Oh, and as a bonus it'll create lots of incentives for people to join terrorist attacks. Its easier to convince being to fight the "Great Satan" if he's been invading your country, smashing through your homes and killing your friends and family.
Exactly. Lack of foresight caused 9/11 and got us into this situation. Where does the downward spiral end?
The idea that Pakistan will launch nuclear weapons in retaliation for us eliminating terrorist cells in their territory is absurd. The idea that a nation can harbor active terrorists on their soil, and we won't do anything about it, is absurd.
We all want to bring peace to the reason. Nobody wants to engage in activities that involve civilian casualties. This is not a good thing. But it's for damn sure a better alternative than just letting them get away with it.
Seriously, if Pakistan wants us to stay out, they need to step up to the plate. Claiming that we somehow don't have the right to engage enemies that have attacked us is outrageous.
I personally don't think the Pakistani government can be said to be sovereign near the Af/Pak border. If they would like to interpret our incursions across the border as acts of war, they are free to. I doubt that they'll do anything much about it though. Pakistan's defense policy is perpetually oriented towards India, and I don't see them seriously starting a war with a superpower on the other border. I do think we could handle the matter more delicately and provide Pakistan with some means of saving face.
Yeah, this is pretty much the reasonable stance to take. It would be great if the Pakistanis would root out their own cockroaches, but they won't or they can't.
Because if we don't go in there and finish these fuckers off, then they will be back to kill more Americans. It's as certain as the hypothetical angry civilians turned insurgents.