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Weeaboos Unite: Learning Japanese for Fun and Profit

245

Posts

  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I've just installed it.

    Oh my god I love you NP.

    It's ateji, you see. Ateji are the bastards.

    I can read so much but not tell you how to say it, because of bastard ateji.

    Now I can get loads of reminders of the ateji for particular compounds.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • BarrakkethBarrakketh Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    NP wrote: »
    Oh yeah, if you are using Firefox, then you absolutely NEED this plugin: rikaichan. If you don't have Firefox, it's worth getting it just for this plugin. What rikaichan does is gives you the definition and pronunciation of a Japanese word in English just by hovering your mouse over the text. You will be able to read like 10x faster with this, since you won't have to keep switching over to a dictionary.

    I discovered that last year and probably wouldn't have known about it were it not for the fact that the author also develops the firmware that I use on my router :P

    Barrakketh on
    Rollers are red, chargers are blue....omae wa mou shindeiru
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    "ateji?"

    KiTA on
    time to crash, the dawn is up, the sun gleems out glorious ps4 sunbeams and i can trade those sunbeams and do whatever i want with them.
  • descoladadescolada Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    kakitori-kun is pretty sweet, and I used to use it a fair bit. Since it grades you on your form, it appeals to that game-loving part of me. I misplaced my cartridge though, so I haven't used it in a while.

    If I recall correctly, it organizes the kanji into levels corresponding to what grades they're taught in Japanese elementary schools. This is kinda cool in that, if you can obtain a few Japanese readers, you can practice trying to read straight Japanese without translations. Granted, this isn't something that I'd reccomend for pure beginners, but it can be an interesting experience for intermediate and advanced students.

    In the same vein, as your level increases, I would highly reccomend trying to understand new concepts from a Japanese perspective. That is, don't necessarily leap to the dictionary or textbook for an explanation, but try to tie it to other forms and words you've already learned. If you have a teacher, try to talk with them about new material in Japanese. The less you have to 'translate' and the more you simply 'think' in Japanese, the better.

    On the other hand, I think my translation skills have suffered as a result of this strategy, as there are things I basically get in Japanese but can't readily explain in English...

    descolada on
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Just noticed that the original Dragon Quest SNES games seem to have a complete lack of Kanji.

    DQ3 NES

    Interesting. Playing through DQ1-3 in pure Japanese would be a trip.

    The First Remake isn't bad, either.

    KiTA on
    time to crash, the dawn is up, the sun gleems out glorious ps4 sunbeams and i can trade those sunbeams and do whatever i want with them.
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Woo, Youtube kills da thread. :P

    KiTA on
    time to crash, the dawn is up, the sun gleems out glorious ps4 sunbeams and i can trade those sunbeams and do whatever i want with them.
  • spacerobotspacerobot Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I was just browsing some threads over at the something awful forums, and there was a discussion about livemocha.com
    Live Mocha is a free language learning website. From what i've experienced so far, it seems to be very similar to Rosetta Stone, except that you can get feedback from native speakers on your progress. Apparently there is a way to chat with native speakers (and people who are looking to learn english). I've decided to accept the fact that I've forgotten most of my Japanese and try "Japanese 101". It's all review for me so far, but I'm hoping it'll bring back my memory on a lot that I've learned.


    edit: after trying the livemocha.com website for a bit, I still don't understand how you would ever learn different forms of verbs through these programs. The website has the ability to let you make flashcards to study from, so I decided I would make some for the words I couldn't remember. For example, one word I was creating a flash card for was "old". The sentence for that segment of the lesson is "私はとしをとっています。” Using my old textbook I see that "としえる” means "old person". So I'm wondering what form of the noun is just ”とし”? This is the problem I have with these programs: Things are not explained. I'm thinking it would be a much better idea to forget computer language programs and just go back to the textbook.

    spacerobot on
    test.jpg
  • DeathPrawnDeathPrawn Registered User
    edited October 2008
    spacerobot wrote: »
    I was just browsing some threads over at the something awful forums, and there was a discussion about livemocha.com
    Live Mocha is a free language learning website. From what i've experienced so far, it seems to be very similar to Rosetta Stone, except that you can get feedback from native speakers on your progress. Apparently there is a way to chat with native speakers (and people who are looking to learn english). I've decided to accept the fact that I've forgotten most of my Japanese and try "Japanese 101". It's all review for me so far, but I'm hoping it'll bring back my memory on a lot that I've learned.


    edit: after trying the livemocha.com website for a bit, I still don't understand how you would ever learn different forms of verbs through these programs. The website has the ability to let you make flashcards to study from, so I decided I would make some for the words I couldn't remember. For example, one word I was creating a flash card for was "old". The sentence for that segment of the lesson is "私はとしをとっています。” Using my old textbook I see that "としえる” means "old person". So I'm wondering what form of the noun is just ”とし”? This is the problem I have with these programs: Things are not explained. I'm thinking it would be a much better idea to forget computer language programs and just go back to the textbook.

    This. In my limited experience studying foreign languages (not just Japanese), you're best off using computer programs as study aids to augment your learning (not much more than flashcards/dictionaries) than as a primary means of study.

    DeathPrawn on
    Signature not found.
  • MimMim Dont'cha wish your girlfriend was dead like me? Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    In high school I used the "Ima" books, which were colorful and thin so they weren't much a strain on my back. Now in university I use the Genki books (being on Genki2 now). They're ok, my classmates and I like to make jokes about Takeshi and Mary.

    I have a bunch of podcasts for Japanese learning but I think I'm going to need more. Any recommendations?

    Also I used to have a TON of websites that helped with learning Japanese. There was one that taught you the stroke order of the kanji and had a little .gif you could watch. Plus there is one website that dealt more with JLPT items that were good for learning. Let me see if I can find them later...after the VP debate.

    Mim on
    Sage everything. Even your genitals.
  • UsagiUsagi Nah Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    So I bought the Genki textbook and workbook set and after looking through some pictures of the exercises and lessons I think this will be much more helpful that the books I've been trying to use. I've had some luck with basic listening comprehension through podcasts, since I want to read Japanese as well as speak it I need more than just those.

    Usagi on
  • NotMeguChanNotMeguChan Registered User
    edited October 2008
    Kakijun is good for stroke order and how to write kanji.

    Reading Tutor is very helpful for reading large chunks of Japanese text.

    I think Rikai has already been mentioned in this thread, but it really is an excellent resource.

    NotMeguChan on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    If no one has mentioned Japalpha(lol AOL homepage, but this prog is like 10 years old) yet, it's what I used to memorize the Kana. If drilling is your thing, its a good way to go. Also has several chapters of basic Kanji.

    There was also, a game, I think it was called Slime Forest or something, that was some kind of RPG edutainment where you had to type the sound of kana and kanji over monsters heads.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • MoSiAcMoSiAc Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    JLPT level 1 in less than 2 months. Woohoo. I'm so no ready yet.

    MoSiAc on
    Monster Hunter Tri US: MoSiAc - U46FJF - Katrice | RipTen - Gaming News | Los Comics
  • MimMim Dont'cha wish your girlfriend was dead like me? Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    MoSiAc wrote: »
    JLPT level 1 in less than 2 months. Woohoo. I'm so no ready yet.

    What did you do to get prepared for it ? Er...as much as you did anyways..

    Mim on
    Sage everything. Even your genitals.
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    MoSiAc wrote: »
    JLPT level 1 in less than 2 months. Woohoo. I'm so no ready yet.

    They just changed it so you can do level 1 and 2 every 6 months.

    Which made me too procratinatory to do level 2 this year.

    Come on June!

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • TokyoRaverTokyoRaver Registered User
    edited October 2008
    Mim wrote: »
    MoSiAc wrote: »
    JLPT level 1 in less than 2 months. Woohoo. I'm so no ready yet.

    What did you do to get prepared for it ? Er...as much as you did anyways..

    Just about the only way to prepare for that test is to pretty much immerse yourself entirely in Japanese for as much of your life as possible.

    Did that: Still didn't pass

    TokyoRaver on
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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I've found very boring kanji study and kakitori-kun 2 to be the best things for JLPT.

    Immersion is all good but eventually you need to write kanji and read novels until it all works.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • MoSiAcMoSiAc Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Mim wrote: »
    MoSiAc wrote: »
    JLPT level 1 in less than 2 months. Woohoo. I'm so no ready yet.

    What did you do to get prepared for it ? Er...as much as you did anyways..

    Well living in Japan and working their helps so I'm doing that, and um other than that, just studying every day and trying to find ways to use what I study each day in normal conversation with co workers. Right now I'm really focusing on remembering all the vocabulary that may appear on the reading comprehension and using it in conversation. I try to keep a journal and write things using the vocab I learn to help me learn the kanji for the words.


    Yeah they did boost the 1 and 2 for every six months starting this year, but they are also adding a new level 1 I think in 2009 or 2010 I forget, and they said it's going to be harder than the current level 1 so I'm really focused on passing so I don't have to deal with that test.

    MoSiAc on
    Monster Hunter Tri US: MoSiAc - U46FJF - Katrice | RipTen - Gaming News | Los Comics
  • BartholamueBartholamue Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    KiTA wrote: »
    Dragon Quest games
    I actually have all of the DQ games that are on the SNES. I haven't really tried them out much though. If you want a good game devoid of kanji, Mother 2 is up your alley. It only has hiragana.

    Anyway, I'm using the 'Japanese In Mangaland' series of books, and it seems to work quite well for my needs. I'm just not consistent enough in my studying. It's advertised that you can take the level 3 test after you're done.

    Bartholamue on
    Steam- SteveBartz Xbox Live- SteveBartz PSN Name- SteveBartz
  • MoSiAcMoSiAc Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    There used to be a site called jlpt.info that had all the old tests so you could get an idea what they are like. I used that for a while till it vanished anyone know of a site that might offer the same material?

    Also when I'm really bored I sorta study on facebook. There's this app called Kanji box that lets you practice reading and meanings of kanji and its separated into the JLPT levels.

    MoSiAc on
    Monster Hunter Tri US: MoSiAc - U46FJF - Katrice | RipTen - Gaming News | Los Comics
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Went through chapter 1 of Genki. Now that I'm in the new apartment I am going to buy a copy instead of using my friend's. Very very nice. I need to sit down and make some flashcards for memorizing the vocab in each chapter though.

    KiTA on
    time to crash, the dawn is up, the sun gleems out glorious ps4 sunbeams and i can trade those sunbeams and do whatever i want with them.
  • MoSiAcMoSiAc Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I hate hate hate keigo and its inner circles outer circles inside outer circles and yourself and your own. Being polite sucks.

    MoSiAc on
    Monster Hunter Tri US: MoSiAc - U46FJF - Katrice | RipTen - Gaming News | Los Comics
  • NotMeguChanNotMeguChan Registered User
    edited October 2008
    MoSiAc wrote: »
    I hate hate hate keigo and its inner circles outer circles inside outer circles and yourself and your own. Being polite sucks.

    ugh, I couldn't agree more - a friend of mine did her graduation capstone on keigo. Kudos to her - I could never handle that much keigo.

    NotMeguChan on
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    And loads of Japanese people have big problems using keigo.

    One of my colleagues just told off a load of our fuckwhatsagoodwordforbuka? Subordinates? For not using keigo to customers, and most of them came up to me after and complained that they just don't know keigo very well and can't remember lots of it.

    The colleague doing the telling off is very old and very traditional, see?

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • A RobotA Robot Registered User
    edited October 2008
    I've planned on learning Japanese for a while now, but reading this thread makes me think I've been making the wrong first steps.
    Picking two books on the topic from the local used book store at random doesn't seem like it would be that effective, now. D:
    So I was thinking about picking up My Japanese Coach, but would it probably be better to go ahead and get Genki, instead?

    Also, as a sort of unrelated thing, does anyone know if listening to music with Japanese lyrics could help with this at all? Like just being able to recognize vocabulary, or something.

    Sorry for all the questions, I just feel kinda new to this.

    A Robot on
    Fishysig.jpg
  • descoladadescolada Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    It can help, but it can also confuse the hell out of you. It's good for general exposure to the language and hearing native speech, but I wouldn't try to directly translate it or anything like that, unless you're at least intermediate. Just think of how confusing and random lyrics can be for English songs sometimes.

    Also, 泣いて笑って is like the most overused expression ever in music, I swear.

    descolada on
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    A Robot wrote: »
    Also, as a sort of unrelated thing, does anyone know if listening to music with Japanese lyrics could help with this at all? Like just being able to recognize vocabulary, or something.

    Sorry for all the questions, I just feel kinda new to this.

    One of the translators working with me at Munyu swears that he learned Japanese not by studying, but rather by watching anime he was helping subtitle and reading manga that he was helping edit.

    I think he's being silly, but, yeah. He claims it works.

    KiTA on
    time to crash, the dawn is up, the sun gleems out glorious ps4 sunbeams and i can trade those sunbeams and do whatever i want with them.
  • A RobotA Robot Registered User
    edited October 2008
    Ah, very cool. Definitely won't be trying to translate it any time soon, but it just feels pretty cool recognizing things that I've heard somewhere else.
    KiTA wrote: »
    A Robot wrote: »
    Also, as a sort of unrelated thing, does anyone know if listening to music with Japanese lyrics could help with this at all? Like just being able to recognize vocabulary, or something.

    Sorry for all the questions, I just feel kinda new to this.

    One of the translators working with me at Munyu swears that he learned Japanese not by studying, but rather by watching anime he was helping subtitle and reading manga that he was helping edit.

    I think he's being silly, but, yeah. He claims it works.
    That would be such a great way to learn the language.
    "Oh jeez I have to study" becomes something awesome. :lol:

    A Robot on
    Fishysig.jpg
  • NotMeguChanNotMeguChan Registered User
    edited October 2008
    A Robot wrote: »
    Also, as a sort of unrelated thing, does anyone know if listening to music with Japanese lyrics could help with this at all? Like just being able to recognize vocabulary, or something.

    Sorry for all the questions, I just feel kinda new to this.

    A funny thing to note: My boyfriend speaks an extremely small amount of Japanese (can't read or write), but he watches a decent amount of anime and listens to more Japanese music than I do. He can pick out a fair amount of the words/sentences, and then uses me as a translator. When I first began studying Japanese and Spanish, I always had a hard time understanding songs, more than anything else really. Trying to decipher music in a foreign language is a great way to boost listening comprehension, I think.

    NotMeguChan on
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    KiTA on
    time to crash, the dawn is up, the sun gleems out glorious ps4 sunbeams and i can trade those sunbeams and do whatever i want with them.
  • A RobotA Robot Registered User
    edited October 2008
    A Robot wrote: »
    Also, as a sort of unrelated thing, does anyone know if listening to music with Japanese lyrics could help with this at all? Like just being able to recognize vocabulary, or something.

    Sorry for all the questions, I just feel kinda new to this.

    A funny thing to note: My boyfriend speaks an extremely small amount of Japanese (can't read or write), but he watches a decent amount of anime and listens to more Japanese music than I do. He can pick out a fair amount of the words/sentences, and then uses me as a translator. When I first began studying Japanese and Spanish, I always had a hard time understanding songs, more than anything else really. Trying to decipher music in a foreign language is a great way to boost listening comprehension, I think.
    I probably need to learn more Japanese to get the most out of it, but that's really good news (especially as someone who listens to that sort of music nearly all the time).
    KiTA wrote: »
    It looks kind of interesting, hopefully it teaches the language well.
    Preferably very well - I remembered recently that I have a copy preordered. :lol:
    If the thread's still up in a few weeks or so I'll try and post some thoughts on it (if I remember).

    A Robot on
    Fishysig.jpg
  • Aoi TsukiAoi Tsuki Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    KiTA wrote: »
    A Robot wrote: »
    Also, as a sort of unrelated thing, does anyone know if listening to music with Japanese lyrics could help with this at all? Like just being able to recognize vocabulary, or something.

    Sorry for all the questions, I just feel kinda new to this.

    One of the translators working with me at Munyu swears that he learned Japanese not by studying, but rather by watching anime he was helping subtitle and reading manga that he was helping edit.

    I think he's being silly, but, yeah. He claims it works.

    The problem with learning from music is weird intonation/picking out proper long vowels or double consonants, especially in weird-rhythmed songs, and that 95% of anime will make you speak like a hideous hybrid of 15-year-old boy and 4-year-old girl. Using 'em as vocabulary supplements is okay, especially considering how little day-to-day informal usage I learned in my 3 or 4 years of college classes, and for picking-out-words practice, but not in themselves.

    Aoi Tsuki on
    Some people already have said stupid things, but I'm ignoring them because I just found a potato in my fridge that looks like it's smiling.
  • descoladadescolada Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    poshniallo wrote: »
    And loads of Japanese people have big problems using keigo.

    One of my colleagues just told off a load of our fuckwhatsagoodwordforbuka? Subordinates? For not using keigo to customers, and most of them came up to me after and complained that they just don't know keigo very well and can't remember lots of it.

    The colleague doing the telling off is very old and very traditional, see?

    I have met Japanese people that tell me I manage teineigo better than they do. Granted, these tend to be younger people that have rarely if ever left the deep inaka, but it's still pretty surprising to me. But yeah, in my experience, unless the person is older or works in a job that absolutely demands keigo, there's a pretty decent chance they don't know it well at all.

    And I still have trouble properly applying the different levels, especially when factoring in the regional variances. You'd think for something as formal as keigo that it'd be more consistant across dialects, but nooo....

    descolada on
  • descoladadescolada Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Aoi Tsuki wrote: »
    The problem with learning from music is weird intonation/picking out proper long vowels or double consonants, especially in weird-rhythmed songs, and that 95% of anime will make you speak like a hideous hybrid of 15-year-old boy and 4-year-old girl. Using 'em as vocabulary supplements is okay, especially considering how little day-to-day informal usage I learned in my 3 or 4 years of college classes, and for picking-out-words practice, but not in themselves.

    Yes, this. Especially this with Japanese rap. Sometimes it's just fast but in complete sentences and relatively easy to follow, and other times it's like Halcali's "Marching March" (the video is subtitled in English on youtube, look it up to see what I mean. It's also an awesome video FYI.)

    Do not use anime to develop an accent because you think it sounds better than your natural one, because it doesn't. I know people that still do this, and they always sound a little off to me regardless of their improved fluency.

    If you look into music, try to branch out beyond just anime connected stuff too. There's a whole other world of pretty sweet Japanese music out there that never gets used as some show's opening song.

    descolada on
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Yeah, I haven't even started trying to learn how to speak Japanese, for fear of gaining a horrid accent or something. Reading would be enough for me, I would think.

    KiTA on
    time to crash, the dawn is up, the sun gleems out glorious ps4 sunbeams and i can trade those sunbeams and do whatever i want with them.
  • LuthzLuthz Registered User
    edited October 2008
    Does anyone have suggestions on the pronunciation of the Ra-Ri-Ru-Re-Ro line? Now that I'm getting into conditional conjugation of verbs, for example kigaeru --> kigaerareru, I don't want to sound like a dumbass infront of my class. I generally try to pronounce it halfway between L and R, but it usually comes out sounding more like an L...

    Luthz on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Luthz wrote: »
    Does anyone have suggestions on the pronunciation of the Ra-Ri-Ru-Re-Ro line? Now that I'm getting into conditional conjugation of verbs, for example kigaeru --> kigaerareru, I don't want to sound like a dumbass infront of my class. I generally try to pronounce it halfway between L and R, but it usually comes out sounding more like an L...

    Well, my wife usually does it as an L, but she's from Hong Kong (1/4 Japanse and spent much time in Japan with her grandmother). She's done some translation work for the local court and people have never commented on it. In my Japanese class my teacher didn't care as long as we didn't roll the R.

    Tofystedeth on
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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    descolada wrote: »
    Aoi Tsuki wrote: »
    The problem with learning from music is weird intonation/picking out proper long vowels or double consonants, especially in weird-rhythmed songs, and that 95% of anime will make you speak like a hideous hybrid of 15-year-old boy and 4-year-old girl. Using 'em as vocabulary supplements is okay, especially considering how little day-to-day informal usage I learned in my 3 or 4 years of college classes, and for picking-out-words practice, but not in themselves.

    Yes, this. Especially this with Japanese rap. Sometimes it's just fast but in complete sentences and relatively easy to follow, and other times it's like Halcali's "Marching March" (the video is subtitled in English on youtube, look it up to see what I mean. It's also an awesome video FYI.)

    Do not use anime to develop an accent because you think it sounds better than your natural one, because it doesn't. I know people that still do this, and they always sound a little off to me regardless of their improved fluency.

    If you look into music, try to branch out beyond just anime connected stuff too. There's a whole other world of pretty sweet Japanese music out there that never gets used as some show's opening song.

    The B'z are pretty sweet. Well, some of it anyway. They've been around a long time, so some of their stuff is really annoyingly 80s sounding. My favorite album of theirs is Brotherhood, though I've found songs I really dig on all their albums. They have some sweet guitar stuff goin on.

    Tofystedeth on
    steam_sig.png
  • NotMeguChanNotMeguChan Registered User
    edited October 2008
    Luthz wrote: »
    Does anyone have suggestions on the pronunciation of the Ra-Ri-Ru-Re-Ro line? Now that I'm getting into conditional conjugation of verbs, for example kigaeru --> kigaerareru, I don't want to sound like a dumbass infront of my class. I generally try to pronounce it halfway between L and R, but it usually comes out sounding more like an L...

    Can you roll your tongue? I find that the Japanese "r" is very similar to that of Spanish, with your tongue hitting the top of your mouth once...sort of like rolling your tongue, just shortened significantly (I hope that makes sense). I've also heard observations that "ra-ri-ru-re-ro" almost sounds like a "d" sound.

    In songs especially, I will notice that it does become more of an "L" sound - I can only assume it's easier to sing that way.

    NotMeguChan on
  • spacerobotspacerobot Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Luthz wrote: »
    Does anyone have suggestions on the pronunciation of the Ra-Ri-Ru-Re-Ro line? Now that I'm getting into conditional conjugation of verbs, for example kigaeru --> kigaerareru, I don't want to sound like a dumbass infront of my class. I generally try to pronounce it halfway between L and R, but it usually comes out sounding more like an L...

    Can you roll your tongue? I find that the Japanese "r" is very similar to that of Spanish, with your tongue hitting the top of your mouth once...sort of like rolling your tongue, just shortened significantly (I hope that makes sense). I've also heard observations that "ra-ri-ru-re-ro" almost sounds like a "d" sound.

    In songs especially, I will notice that it does become more of an "L" sound - I can only assume it's easier to sing that way.

    I always pronounced my ら as something between an La, ra and a だ, and
    My Japanese professor never said it was wrong.

    spacerobot on
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