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Weeaboos Unite: Learning Japanese for Fun and Profit

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Posts

  • Lux782Lux782 Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I have to post http://smart.fm/ it is probably one of the greatest language sites out there and its free! It has a really comprehensive set of Japanese courses which according to them, if you finish all of them, should allow you to read / watch most Japenese entertainment and have a complete understanding of what is being said (or read).

    Lux782 on
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Wow. Renshuu.org is wonderful. I don't really have the time or tech skills to mess around understanding Anki and setting it up, so that is perfect for me. Level 1 here I come!

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • matisyahumatisyahu Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Glad you like it, poshniallo! I was so excited when I found it, it was EXACTLY what I was looking for.

    So right now I'm trying to say "I gained weight, so I have to buy new jeans" or "Because I gained weight, I must buy new jeans," but I don't know how to make sentences with "have to" or "must" in them.

    Right now I have:
    太りましたから、あたらしいジーンズをかいます。
    futorimashita kara, atarashii jiinzu wo kaimasu.
    I think this can mean "Because I gained weight, I will buy new jeans," but my textbook doesn't cover it.

    I'm also looking for how to make sentences with "should" and "should not," and also "can" and "cannot," like "Because I gained weight, I cannot wear my jeans." I'd appreciate any help you can give, or any websites you can point me to.

    matisyahu on
    i dont even like matisyahu and i dont know why i picked this username
  • darksteeldarksteel Registered User
    edited April 2009
    matisyahu wrote: »
    Glad you like it, poshniallo! I was so excited when I found it, it was EXACTLY what I was looking for.

    So right now I'm trying to say "I gained weight, so I have to buy new jeans" or "Because I gained weight, I must buy new jeans," but I don't know how to make sentences with "have to" or "must" in them.

    Right now I have:
    太りましたから、あたらしいジーンズをかいます。
    futorimashita kara, atarashii jiinzu wo kaimasu.
    I think this can mean "Because I gained weight, I will buy new jeans," but my textbook doesn't cover it.

    I'm also looking for how to make sentences with "should" and "should not," and also "can" and "cannot," like "Because I gained weight, I cannot wear my jeans." I'd appreciate any help you can give, or any websites you can point me to.

    If you want the sentence to say "I gained weight, so I will buy new jeans," it's pretty much the same as your sentence, but this time in タメ語 (because some of the examples will be needing it) and with Kanji: 「太ったから、新しいジーンズを買う」

    As for the "I have to" grammar:

    "I gained weight, so I have to buy new jeans." - 「太ったから、新しいジーンズを買わなきゃ」

    In reality, the above "I have to" example sentence is really just one of many ways to say "I have to." The grammar is really an extension of the conditional functions, of which there are four (fuck Japanese). All of these sentences are correct, and mean basically the same thing as the example above:

    「太ったから、新しいジーンズを買わないとだめ」
    「太ったから、新しいジーンズを買わないならだめ」
    「太ったから、新しいジーンズを買わなければだめ」
    「太ったから、新しいジーンズを買わなかったらだめ」

    What all of these sentences are literally saying is that "(I) gained weight, so if (I) don't buy new jeans, it's no good (hence I should buy some)." It's a really roundabout way of saying it. Fortunately, the Japanese people agree. Which is why there are shortcuts, and really, in casual conversations this is what is used more often. Both of these mean the same thing.

    「太ったから、新しいジーンズを買わなきゃ」 (same as example sentence above)
    「太ったから、新しいジーンズを買わなくちゃ」

    That last one with the 「なくちゃ」 sounds a bit girly, so if you're concerned at all about your masculinity, it's better to use the 「なきゃ」 version. If you want it to be negative (i.e. "must not"), then just add the 「だめ」 back in after the 「なきゃ」. These shortcuts are very タメ口 though, and if you are going to be writing an essay, or anything semi-formal and authoritative, you had best use any of the four conditional examples above, preferably the longest one (you will notice that longer = more polite in Japanese). On a final note, you can replace 「だめ」 with 「いけない」 or 「ならない」. 「だめ」 is more casual, but 「いけない」 and 「ならない」 are more formal and instruction manual-ish. As always, apply 丁寧語 when appropriate.

    "Should" and "should not" are fairly easily explained:

    "You gained weight, so you should buy new jeans." - 「太ったから、新しいジーンズを買った方がいいぞ」

    This is, literally, "(You) gained weight, so the way of buying new jeans is good." The implication is you're making an invisible comparison, the "way of buying new jeans" versus "the way of not buying new jeans," and you're saying that "buying new jeans" is better. If you want to make it "should not", then just make the relevant verb, noun, or adjective negative. 「新しいジーンズを買わなかった方がいいぞ」 If you've noticed, the operational word needs to be in past tense all the time. I have no idea why this is so.

    And now for "can" and "cannot". This is done by a verb conjugation called the "potential form." Basically, for most verbs (verbs that are not "ru" verbs), you change the last sound into it's "e" form, and then add a "ru". For "ru" verbs, you add a "rare" before the "ru". The end result for both turns it into a regular "ru" verb, and conjugates as such.

    Example: (Non-ru verbs) 「買う」 = 「買える」 (can buy) 「買えない」 (can't buy)
    「話す」 = 「話せる」 (can talk) 「話せない」 (can't talk)
    (Ru verbs) 「食べる」 = 「食べられる」 (can eat) 「食べられない」 (can't eat)
    「信じる」 = 「信じられる」 (can believe) 「信じられない」 (can't believe)

    There is an exception, though it's the usual irregular verbs. 「する」 (to do) becomes 「できる」 (can do), and 「来る」 (to come) becomes 「こられる」 (can come).

    As for your requested sentence:

    "Because I gained weight, I cannot wear my jeans." - 「太ったから、 ジーンズをはけない」

    Feel free to ask for clarification if I made a shitty explanation (which I probably did), or if I made a mistake. We're all still learning after all.

    darksteel on
    shikisig6-1.jpg
  • NostregarNostregar Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I just wanted to point out in regards to this:
    In reality, the above "I have to" example sentence is really just one of many ways to say "I have to." The grammar is really an extension of the conditional functions, of which there are four (fuck Japanese). All of these sentences are correct, and mean basically the same thing as the example above:

    that there are nuanced differences between all four, and they aren't exactly interchangable. Your explanation is pretty good, but they definately aren't "the same", and to get into that mindest might make it hard to learn to distinguish them later on/in other cases.

    Nostregar on
    Nostregar wrote: »
    I think that an entire religious debate done in haiku would be genuinely enjoyable.
    You say there is God
    I see only the fleshmeat
    Prove your space daddy
  • darksteeldarksteel Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Nostregar wrote: »
    I just wanted to point out in regards to this:
    In reality, the above "I have to" example sentence is really just one of many ways to say "I have to." The grammar is really an extension of the conditional functions, of which there are four (fuck Japanese). All of these sentences are correct, and mean basically the same thing as the example above:

    that there are nuanced differences between all four, and they aren't exactly interchangable. Your explanation is pretty good, but they definately aren't "the same", and to get into that mindest might make it hard to learn to distinguish them later on/in other cases.

    True. There are differences, but I thought that explaining them would bloat an already bloated post (I mean, look at it, it's pretty big). So, to make up for that, I'll try my best to explain what the difference between the four conditionals are to matisyahu and anyone interested (at least how I understand it).

    The first, the と conditional, implies that the result is a natural occurrence, that it will happen as a matter of course if the condition is fulfilled.

    「あなたは食べないと腹がへる事になるよ」 - "If you don't eat, you'll get hungry."

    The second, the なら conditional, means that given a certain context, the result is what will happen.

    「みんなは日本語の歌を歌うなら僕も歌う」 - "Given the context that everyone sings Japanese is fulfilled, I will sing too." (A very literal translation, but I hope to impart the feel of the sentence as accurately as I can).

    The third, the ば conditional, contrasts with the next (たら) conditional, in that you are placing the emphasis on the condition. This can't be used with nouns and na-adjectives. Change the last sound to it's "e" form when using verbs, and with negatives ending in 「ない」 or with i-adjectives, take off the last i and add 「ければ」.

    「部長になればいいな」 - "Man, it'd be great if I became club president."
    「忙しければ飲みに行けない」 - "We can't go out drinking, if you're busy."

    The final conditional, the たら conditional, means you are emphasizing what will happen after the condition is fulfilled. You need to conjugate the noun, verb, or adjective into past tense and then append the ら after it.

    「部長になったらいいな」 - "Man, if I became club president, it'd be great."

    Finally, you can make the なら and たら conditionals into ならば and たらば, respectively, to make it more formal sounding.

    darksteel on
    shikisig6-1.jpg
  • BartholamueBartholamue Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Giving this a big BUMP! I've been getting serious in my study, but I've had differing views/opinions on what the 'best' way of learning is. I've heard a lot about learning kanji first, THEN learning grammar/words, but I've just been going through the japanese/kanji in mangaland books and that's what I've been doing for awhile. I've also learned of radicals in the more difficult kanji, and I think that might make things easier.

    I also had a query that's been looming over my head for awhile now. Why are some books insistent that kanji isn't necessary beyond first/second grade stuff (if at all)? Seems pretty retarded to me, especially when someone wants to be proficient.

    Bartholamue on
    Steam- SteveBartz Xbox Live- SteveBartz PSN Name- SteveBartz
  • darksteeldarksteel Registered User
    edited May 2009
    I also had a query that's been looming over my head for awhile now. Why are some books insistent that kanji isn't necessary beyond first/second grade stuff (if at all)? Seems pretty retarded to me, especially when someone wants to be proficient.

    This is because the first time you learn about kanji and how many there are, it is staggering to someone not reared on the concept from birth, and they want to keep scary Chinese characters away. I knew I was overwhelmed at first.

    Personally, I advocate learning kanji from the very beginning right alongside your study of grammar. That way, you get used to it early and start learning a few basic ones from the outset. It's better this way than what most textbooks will make you go through with a purely hiragana approach, and then suddenly saying "Stop! Actually, you have been learning Retardo-Japanese all this time! It's time to introduce this entirely new and heretofore unmentioned set of Chinese characters that are actually essential to Japanese grammar!"

    darksteel on
    shikisig6-1.jpg
  • BartholamueBartholamue Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Yeah, the japanese in mangaland books do exactly that, so looks like I'll have to continue with that book.

    Bartholamue on
    Steam- SteveBartz Xbox Live- SteveBartz PSN Name- SteveBartz
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I think one of the biggest reasons that books don't push you to learn kanji is that they want to tell people what they want to hear in order to sell.

    I know someone who keeps buying all these 'Japanese for Busy People', 'Japanese in 10 weeks', 'Easy Japanese! Fast!' books. And then never reads them. All these books have been successfully marketed to him on the idea that they'll make it easy. That's a big side of the industry of Japanese study materials.

    Also, among foreigners in Japan there seems to be two approaches to learning Japanese. One is to learn what you think you need to get by. The other is to aim for fluency. Not learning kanji appeals to the first type of learner.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • Edith UpwardsEdith Upwards Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    DeathPrawn wrote: »
    I'm taking Japanese 1 this semester at university.

    If you're still learning your kana, and you have a DS with a flashcart, I can't recommend Project JDS enough. It's a super-customizable flashcard program for hiragana and katakana; it's really helped me learn my shit.

    Although, to be honest, there's something about using my Nintendo DS to learn Japanese that makes me feel like a scary otaku weeaboo weirdo.

    Buy, the clothes, complete your freakish transfor-No. Not the naruto headband. D: Only children wear those.

    Edith Upwards on
  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I haven't been trying to learn Japanese, but it seems 6 years of subbed anime and listening almost exclusively to JP music has worked its magic. Recently, while watching some anime, the subs cut out. I didn't notice til my friend walked in and asked how I could understand it without them... and it's not like I was zoned out not paying attention to the plot.

    Kamar on
  • MimMim Dont'cha wish your girlfriend was dead like me? Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    So I've been searching around lately for Japanese slang books. Please, save the "well you must learn the formal first before diving into slang" lectures because it's just a waste of time.

    I bought "Making out in Japanese" and the front said that it was Japanese that wouldn't go out of style (i.e. short form, which I have been learning in school). However, every time I pick up a slang book the comments always read "Ugh, this is SO outdated, 40 years old!" and I just can't seem to wrap my head around the concept that ALL the slang books ever written, even after 2000 use slang from the 60s. Especially when there are Japanese authors at the helm to check some of the slang.

    So what gives? Is there a way to learn it online? What books do you recommend?

    Mim on
    Sage everything. Even your genitals.
  • CygnusZCygnusZ Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Stay on top of Japanese social and entertainment trends. Ryuukougo (流行語), that is the current popular language, changes with alarming frequency.

    ラーメン、付け麺、僕イケメン!
    グー
    オ・パ・ピー
    ぬじれ国会
    つまら内閣
    どんだけー
    欧米か!
    3M (マジでもう無理)
    AKB (秋葉原)


    and of course, who can forget:
    女性は子供を生む機械 (ok, not really)

    CygnusZ on
  • darksteeldarksteel Registered User
    edited July 2009
    CygnusZ wrote: »
    and of course, who can forget:
    女性は子供を生む機械 (ok, not really)

    Who was the guy that said this? I forget. Was it Abe?

    I still can't believe anyone would say that. Jesus.

    darksteel on
    shikisig6-1.jpg
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    You can't learn slang from books. Sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear, but apart from my experience showing me that by the time anything gets written down it's passe, there's also the definition of slang, which has to be oral.

    Even when you try to write it down on a website, as Cygnus kindly did, the nature of slang means that by the time something is important enough for you to be sure that it's OK to write down, it's old news. All the 'current' quotes he had, which are mostly catchphrases of comedians, are kinda old.

    It's just very hard, perhaps impossible, to catalogue slang.

    I'd say the only way to learn it would be to chat with Japanese youngsters, or to be honest, Japanese people of your own age, as copying how teenagers speak only works if you're a teenager.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • MoSiAcMoSiAc Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Hah those catch phrases are all old school now.

    Man did I ever hate hearing "Shoppin-GU!" "dancin-GU!" on TV every freakin night.

    The slang in Japan changes so quickly. Anything someone "popular" says on TV becomes a dead phrase as soon as the next person pops up. The only thing that I ever heard used anymore after he lost popularity was with Bobbi and his 'blah blah zya nee' instead of 'zya nai'.

    (sorry I don't feel like dealing with the IME crap right now so romaji it is!)

    MoSiAc on
    Monster Hunter Tri US: MoSiAc - U46FJF - Katrice | RipTen - Gaming News | Los Comics
  • MimMim Dont'cha wish your girlfriend was dead like me? Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    What about online Japanese forums like 2ch? Or something to that effect? I really can't believe that slang just dies THAT quickly in Japan. Some of the stuff in books has to be relevant even today especially when most of it really just consists of short form (like in the Making out in Japanese book, most of that is short form that we are taught in school).

    English has an Urban Dictionary and you can find British and Australian slang, why is Japanese, or maybe even any Asian language, so different?

    Mim on
    Sage everything. Even your genitals.
  • MoSiAcMoSiAc Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I'm sure if you spent most of your time at Japan cultured centered websites you would probably see more of their slang. Urban Dictionary is an English slang website, there might be something similar for Japanese but I have never really looked for something like that and not many of my japanese friends use the internet for anything other than watching you tube videos and checking e-mail.

    I think 2ch has its own version of slang there might be some stuff there but i doubt its slang that everyone uses.

    MoSiAc on
    Monster Hunter Tri US: MoSiAc - U46FJF - Katrice | RipTen - Gaming News | Los Comics
  • MimMim Dont'cha wish your girlfriend was dead like me? Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Anyone have any ways to watch Japanese TV online? Streaming? I know someone told me a long time ago where I could see some, but I forgot :X Channel V as well, if you know.

    Yeah, 2ch is a little hard to work through, especially with so little Japanese knowledge. If I could find a Japanese/English type board that'd be nice.

    Mim on
    Sage everything. Even your genitals.
  • CygnusZCygnusZ Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I'm sorry, the point is that all those expressions came in-and-out of style during the last year and a half or so.
    Building on what Mosaic said, usually only one or two phrases becomes popular at a single time. Once the current one-hit-wonder (usually 一発ギャグ屋) has had his turn, the next one comes along. Right now I think the group Audrey (オードリ) is hot. You can probably see plenty of them on youtube or nicovideo if you do a search.

    2chan has their own slang. A lot of it is pretty nasty. Here are a few phrases I see around:

    wwwww = LOL
    OTL = Person bowing
    池沼 = Retard
    DQN = Idiot
    チョン = Korean (duragatory)
    妊娠 = Hardcore Nintendo Fanboy
    Who was the guy that said this? I forget. Was it Abe?

    Yanagisawa Hakuo.

    Speaking of politics, the phrase "ハトの乱" seems to have already fallen into disuse.

    CygnusZ on
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Ah sorry, I didn't mean to impugn Cygnus's Japanese knowledge, which is better than my own (grrr I'm jealous of students).

    I just meant that by the time a piece of TV-slang becomes mainstream enough to bother learning it, it's often passe, because that's the nature of slang.

    Of course, then we could debate what slang means exactly (e.g. those 'short forms' you mention, which I'm not sure exactly what you mean).

    In fact, 'slang that everyone uses' may be an impossibility. There're always in-groups and out-groups for any slang.

    Sorry, I'm linguistics-geeking.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • lunarislunaris Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I took Japanese for five semesters in college after taking french for three years in HS. My college had a language requirement and Japanese as a language always fascinated me. It was a ton of work (100+ kanji a week near the end) and I've nearly forgot it all in only two years since, but it was still a worthwhile experience.

    lunaris on
  • AumniAumni Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sweet thread. I've been teaching myself for a few years and am quite versed in the Grammar and stuff. I'll be poking around to offer bad advice.

    If not mentioned already - Yookoso (Youkoso) has a great daily e-mail that goes over a particular word/grammar construct. Usually comments/discussion from native speakers and students learning Japanese are posted at the end to help flesh out information.

    Can only read Romaji at work. Booo.

    Aumni on
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/aumni/ Battlenet: Aumni#1978 GW2: Aumni.1425 PSN: Aumnius
  • MimMim Dont'cha wish your girlfriend was dead like me? Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Is there a rule that we can't state where to find Japanese shows online? Cause every time I ask that question, no one answers it. Just wondering.

    Mim on
    Sage everything. Even your genitals.
  • AumniAumni Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Mim wrote: »
    Is there a rule that we can't state where to find Japanese shows online? Cause every time I ask that question, no one answers it. Just wondering.

    I can't check at work, but I think Nicovideos is a Japanese youtube (I think).

    Aumni on
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/aumni/ Battlenet: Aumni#1978 GW2: Aumni.1425 PSN: Aumnius
  • MoSiAcMoSiAc Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    There is DMM video but it is a pay service, and I also think it only works in Japan and it does have a monthly fee. It's sort of like netflix streaming when I used it in Japan, but the majority of their stuff is also "adult" in nature but there is anime and some tv serials.

    Otherwise the only places I have seen that offer TV shows are less than legal.

    MoSiAc on
    Monster Hunter Tri US: MoSiAc - U46FJF - Katrice | RipTen - Gaming News | Los Comics
  • SightTDWSightTDW Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I'm taking my first Japanese course in the Fall semester. I'm glad to see that Genki 1 is recommended here, because that's the book the class uses.

    I knew the kana a few years back, but I've pretty much forgotten most of it. I'm making it a goal to relearn it before the class starts, but it just isn't clicking this time around. I'm thinking I'll make up some flash cards. If I get desperate I'll pick up "Remembering the Kana."

    SightTDW on
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  • GiraGira Registered User
    edited July 2009
    You really shouldn't need a book to remember the kana. Just grab one of those cheap college whiteboards and a dry-erase marker, and sit down and write that shit over and over. You'll have it down in no time.

    Besides, you just need to get it to sink in a -little- bit, because after you see it and use it over and over...and over and over...and over and over...you'll find it absolutely ridiculous how you could ever -NOT- know it.

    And general tips for your first course:
    A. Prepare/read the chapter ahead of time. It helps.
    B. DON'T be one of those people who sits and writes kana above all the kanji -- all you're doing is crippling yourself in the long run; it's the easy way out. If you feel you must, make a copy of the page and do it there, so you'll have an unblemished copy to practice off of.
    C. As soon as you have the kana down pat, get cracking on the kanji. The lessons in the back of the Genki books are a good place to start and you'll most likely cover them in class, but you'll find that you'll want to go beyond that soon, so you should start on a support system to get there. It's probably already been said in this thread, but look into Anki because you are not going to want boxes of flash cards covering your room ;) As well as being more inefficient than using a computerized flashcard system.

    Gira on
  • MoSiAcMoSiAc Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I dunno if its been mentioned at all but for you facebook stalkers theres an app called Kanjibox. You can set it for the study level you want it does vocab and kana/kanji. You can drill yourself and test yourself and if any of your friends are also kanjibox users you can compete for high scores.

    What I like about it is I can do it while lookin at facebook buggin friends so it's study without studying.

    MoSiAc on
    Monster Hunter Tri US: MoSiAc - U46FJF - Katrice | RipTen - Gaming News | Los Comics
  • KiTAKiTA Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Kanjibox is awesome except that, since I used "Reviewing the Kana" by Heisig, a lot of the Kanjibox kana are like... huh?

    Vyu and the like, for example.

    KiTA on
    time to crash, the dawn is up, the sun gleems out glorious ps4 sunbeams and i can trade those sunbeams and do whatever i want with them.
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