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My son discovers RPGs, or How I Realized I’m A Jaded Gamer

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    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Teyar wrote: »
    Hm. For me, its that we use games to give ourselves freedom we'll never have in reality.

    Not just the ability to leap over a tall building or throw a city-block destroying fireball.
    But the ability to buy up a bunch of buildings. To pull up roots and just go to a new area. To bypass silly worries like rent, or make them trivial. To never once think about groceries. Illusions like that.

    And that sort of freedom screams of choices to make, wide open places, that very few games do well.

    I don't know if escapism and the freedom to do whatever you want in a game world are really much of the same thing.

    It's kind of a losing argument, though. Especially when even things like 'illusion of choice' is lumped in with 'linear'.
    Wait, what's a losing argument? I'm confused now.

    Speed Racer on
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    Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Teyar wrote: »
    Hm. For me, its that we use games to give ourselves freedom we'll never have in reality.

    Not just the ability to leap over a tall building or throw a city-block destroying fireball.
    But the ability to buy up a bunch of buildings. To pull up roots and just go to a new area. To bypass silly worries like rent, or make them trivial. To never once think about groceries. Illusions like that.

    And that sort of freedom screams of choices to make, wide open places, that very few games do well.

    I don't know if escapism and the freedom to do whatever you want in a game world are really much of the same thing.

    It's kind of a losing argument, though. Especially when even things like 'illusion of choice' is lumped in with 'linear'.
    Wait, what's a losing argument? I'm confused now.

    Well, generally suggesting that there isn't anything wrong with linearity. I probably should've picked the post that it more accurately responds to, but I think the above still had the same base argument. '... that sort of freedom screams of choices to make, wide open places, that very few games do well.' What with illusion of choice being considered no choice at all.

    The point of view is that some players want a completely open and dynamic environment that is malleable and can be affected by even the smallest choice the player makes. And yet, most games can't offer anything approaching that... Maybe the ending is generally the same or there aren't more than a small handful no matter how many different choices the player makes.

    It's almost as if the industry itself is the cause of the problem by touting things as interactive movie-like experiences or some such. So it's a bit of a losing argument to defend linearity as more and more people come to expect dynamic environments and begin to conflate 'open but with limits' with 'on rails' to one degree or another.

    Santa Claustrophobia on
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    DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    There isn't anything wrong with linearity. "Video games" is a rather large umbrella. Plenty of room for all sorts of things.

    DisruptorX2 on
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    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Teyar wrote: »
    Hm. For me, its that we use games to give ourselves freedom we'll never have in reality.

    Not just the ability to leap over a tall building or throw a city-block destroying fireball.
    But the ability to buy up a bunch of buildings. To pull up roots and just go to a new area. To bypass silly worries like rent, or make them trivial. To never once think about groceries. Illusions like that.

    And that sort of freedom screams of choices to make, wide open places, that very few games do well.

    I don't know if escapism and the freedom to do whatever you want in a game world are really much of the same thing.

    It's kind of a losing argument, though. Especially when even things like 'illusion of choice' is lumped in with 'linear'.
    Wait, what's a losing argument? I'm confused now.

    Well, generally suggesting that there isn't anything wrong with linearity. I probably should've picked the post that it more accurately responds to, but I think the above still had the same base argument. '... that sort of freedom screams of choices to make, wide open places, that very few games do well.' What with illusion of choice being considered no choice at all.

    The point of view is that some players want a completely open and dynamic environment that is malleable and can be affected by even the smallest choice the player makes. And yet, most games can't offer anything approaching that... Maybe the ending is generally the same or there aren't more than a small handful no matter how many different choices the player makes.

    It's almost as if the industry itself is the cause of the problem by touting things as interactive movie-like experiences or some such. So it's a bit of a losing argument to defend linearity as more and more people come to expect dynamic environments and begin to conflate 'open but with limits' with 'on rails' to one degree or another.
    What I'm saying, though, is that the expectation of a wholly dynamic environment is unreasonable, and that a really tightly done and well made linear game, like Bioshock, is superior to a game that gives you a tiny taste of a lot of things but doesn't nail any one mechanic especially well, which is necessarily going to happen when someone tries to create a completely open world, simply because there is a finite amount of resources to work with.

    Speed Racer on
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    Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Teyar wrote: »
    Hm. For me, its that we use games to give ourselves freedom we'll never have in reality.

    Not just the ability to leap over a tall building or throw a city-block destroying fireball.
    But the ability to buy up a bunch of buildings. To pull up roots and just go to a new area. To bypass silly worries like rent, or make them trivial. To never once think about groceries. Illusions like that.

    And that sort of freedom screams of choices to make, wide open places, that very few games do well.

    I don't know if escapism and the freedom to do whatever you want in a game world are really much of the same thing.

    It's kind of a losing argument, though. Especially when even things like 'illusion of choice' is lumped in with 'linear'.
    Wait, what's a losing argument? I'm confused now.

    Well, generally suggesting that there isn't anything wrong with linearity. I probably should've picked the post that it more accurately responds to, but I think the above still had the same base argument. '... that sort of freedom screams of choices to make, wide open places, that very few games do well.' What with illusion of choice being considered no choice at all.

    The point of view is that some players want a completely open and dynamic environment that is malleable and can be affected by even the smallest choice the player makes. And yet, most games can't offer anything approaching that... Maybe the ending is generally the same or there aren't more than a small handful no matter how many different choices the player makes.

    It's almost as if the industry itself is the cause of the problem by touting things as interactive movie-like experiences or some such. So it's a bit of a losing argument to defend linearity as more and more people come to expect dynamic environments and begin to conflate 'open but with limits' with 'on rails' to one degree or another.
    What I'm saying, though, is that the expectation of a wholly dynamic environment is unreasonable, and that a really tightly done and well made linear game, like Bioshock, is superior to a game that gives you a tiny taste of a lot of things but doesn't nail any one mechanic especially well, which is necessarily going to happen when someone tries to create a completely open world, simply because there is a finite amount of resources to work with.

    And I understand that. I'm not saying you're wrong, either. But, as time goes on, the defense of linear gaming will become harder in the face of an ever growing belief that gaming should be fully interactive and dynamic. They'll want the holodeck when all we have is the television and it'll be the game's fault.

    Santa Claustrophobia on
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    Shoegaze99Shoegaze99 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Son in KOTOR update:

    HE IS ON THE SITH FLAGSHIP.

    So it could be anytime now. Depends on how busy the next two days are, I guess. Cool. I look forward to seeing his reaction.

    Shoegaze99 on
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    HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    oh man oh man
    very excited

    Hardtarget on
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    Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Man, talk about a Christmas Surprise.

    Raiden333 on
    There was a steam sig here. It's gone now.
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    Toxin01Toxin01 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Shoegaze99 wrote: »
    Son in KOTOR update:

    HE IS ON THE SITH FLAGSHIP.

    So it could be anytime now. Depends on how busy the next two days are, I guess. Cool. I look forward to seeing his reaction.

    Aaaaaaaah cant wait.

    Toxin01 on
    Aiden Baail: Level 1 Swordmage: 19 AC 14 Fort 15 Ref 13 Will (Curse Of The Black Pearls)
    GM: Rusty Chains (DH Ongoing)
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    PunkBoyPunkBoy Thank you! And thank you again! Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    What are his thoughts right now? Does he think something's up? What does he think about his party members?

    PunkBoy on
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    SamSam Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    What I'm saying, though, is that the expectation of a wholly dynamic environment is unreasonable, and that a really tightly done and well made linear game, like Bioshock, is superior to a game that gives you a tiny taste of a lot of things but doesn't nail any one mechanic especially well, which is necessarily going to happen when someone tries to create a completely open world, simply because there is a finite amount of resources to work with.

    generalization train

    Sam on
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    Shoegaze99Shoegaze99 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    PunkBoy wrote: »
    What are his thoughts right now? Does he think something's up? What does he think about his party members?

    He does not think anything is up. He thinks the Sith are out to frame him and make him look bad, so I won't be surprised if he thinks the twist is a trick. He think Mission is a piece of work. I think Bastilla (sp?) is his favorite.

    Shoegaze99 on
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    JebralJebral The guy nobody pays attention to Down South in the land of free thinkingRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Oh man. It surprised the shit out of me, way back when.

    Jebral on
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    never dienever die Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Unlike books or movies, games don't get jaded for me as often. I often find myself immersed in games.

    never die on
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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Oh man oh man oh man oh man

    It's a Christmas miracle!

    I knew about the scene when I saw it, and it still drew me in. They did a hell of a good job.

    yalborap on
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    PunkBoyPunkBoy Thank you! And thank you again! Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I can't wait to hear his reaction to Bastilla's involvement in the twist.

    And to think that the Sith are out to frame him...that's actually quite an interesting way to think of the situation.

    PunkBoy on
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    The Linecutters Podcast: Your weekly dose of nerd! Tune in for the live broadcast every Wednesday at 7 PM EST, only at www.non-productive.com!
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    BTPBTP Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    It has been two weeks since the last update.

    ...........WELL?!

    BTP on
    Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection & DS High Scores Thread
    I WILL NOT BE DOING 3DS FOR NWC THREAD. SOMEONE ELSE WILL HAVE TO TAKE OVER.
    Spoiler contains Friend Codes. Won't you be my friend?
    My Friend Codes!

    More Friend Codes!
    Mario Kart Wii: 3136-6982-0286 Tetris Party: 2364 1569 4310
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    rayofashrayofash Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    yalborap wrote: »
    Oh man oh man oh man oh man

    It's a Christmas miracle!

    I knew about the scene when I saw it, and it still drew me in. They did a hell of a good job.

    I called the twist the moment they mentioned what's her face killed him and how the main character had no memories, it was so predictable.

    rayofash on
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    ruzkinruzkin Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Shoegaze, COME ON!!!!

    ruzkin on
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    WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Your insides Let me show you themRegistered User regular
    edited January 2009
    rayofash wrote: »
    yalborap wrote: »
    Oh man oh man oh man oh man

    It's a Christmas miracle!

    I knew about the scene when I saw it, and it still drew me in. They did a hell of a good job.

    I called the twist the moment they mentioned what's her face killed him and how the main character had no memories, it was so predictable.

    Well, congratulations. Most of us didn't.

    WhiteZinfandel on
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    LoneIgadzraLoneIgadzra Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I can usually see that shit coming, so I try not to think about it and usually succeed.

    LoneIgadzra on
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    Toxin01Toxin01 Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Sooo what ever happened with this?

    Toxin01 on
    Aiden Baail: Level 1 Swordmage: 19 AC 14 Fort 15 Ref 13 Will (Curse Of The Black Pearls)
    GM: Rusty Chains (DH Ongoing)
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    METAzraeLMETAzraeL Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I think you need to use some sort of subtle suggestion to get him started on this again, maybe go watch a Star Wars movie, eh?

    METAzraeL on

    dream a little dream or you could live a little dream
    sleep forever if you wish to be a dreamer
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I think it blew his son's mind so hard the whole house was destroyed in a wave of psychic energy.

    It's the only explanation.

    DarkPrimus on
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    Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    A disturbance in the Force?

    Santa Claustrophobia on
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    METAzraeLMETAzraeL Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I think it blew his son's mind so hard the whole house was destroyed in a wave of psychic energy.

    It's the only explanation.
    Shoegaze99 wrote:
    ..I'm your father.
    shoewalker wrote:
    yea, I knOOOOOO

    is your sig from some sort of sonic and transformers fanfic?

    D:

    METAzraeL on

    dream a little dream or you could live a little dream
    sleep forever if you wish to be a dreamer
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    METAzraeL wrote: »
    is your sig from some sort of sonic and transformers fanfic?

    D:

    No, unfortunately it's just a wallpaper. I'm sure there is fan-fiction out there, but not fan-comics to my knowledge, and I'm not big on having just text in my sig.

    But in case you didn't know, yeah, Optimus/Sally OTP.

    DarkPrimus on
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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    METAzraeL wrote: »
    is your sig from some sort of sonic and transformers fanfic?

    D:

    No, unfortunately it's just a wallpaper. I'm sure there is fan-fiction out there, but not fan-comics to my knowledge, and I'm not big on having just text in my sig.

    But in case you didn't know, yeah, Optimus/Sally OTP.

    Okay, I HAVE to see this.

    yalborap on
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    METAzraeLMETAzraeL Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    METAzraeL wrote: »
    is your sig from some sort of sonic and transformers fanfic?

    D:

    No, unfortunately it's just a wallpaper. I'm sure there is fan-fiction out there, but not fan-comics to my knowledge, and I'm not big on having just text in my sig.

    But in case you didn't know, yeah, Optimus/Sally OTP.
    I was secretly hoping that you'd post a link to hot and steamy robot/fox (?) action replete with illustrations

    METAzraeL on

    dream a little dream or you could live a little dream
    sleep forever if you wish to be a dreamer
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    LaCabraLaCabra MelbourneRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    I played Half-Life 1 when it came out and always tried to get to those places you aren't meant to go, or wondered what was around that corner past that unbreakable glass in the anomalous materials lab.

    I guess my imagination broke the first time I found noclip.

    LaCabra on
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    METAzraeL wrote: »
    I was secretly hoping that you'd post a link to hot and steamy robot/fox (?) action replete with illustrations

    Sorry, I just have robot/robot action, and posting that stuff would get me jailed. And we're derailing this thread anyway so please phrase future requests in the form of a PM.

    DarkPrimus on
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    Shoegaze99Shoegaze99 Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Toxin01 wrote: »
    Sooo what ever happened with this?
    With his crew on Malak's ship and the reveal on the cusp of happening during Christmas break, he got Lock's Quest for his DS. It immediately became an obsession (and still is). He's played through the game twice and can't get enough of it. Draws pictures of all the characters, gets out toy soldiers and plays out the battles, etc.

    I know him well enough to know that if I urge him back to KOTOR, he'll approach it as a chore. He'll have to go back to it on his own. I did ask him about it the other day. Talking about the story got it churning some more in his mind.

    Shoegaze99 on
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    TeyarTeyar Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Hah! in all the wonder, we forgot the important part of all this.


    ITS A KID.

    Teyar on
    Kick At The Darkness Until It Bleeds Daylight
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    DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's not every day you get to see something you love fresh again, through the eyes of a child. Kids are the best.

    Drake on
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    UltimaGeckoUltimaGecko Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    LaCabra wrote: »
    I played Half-Life 1 when it came out and always tried to get to those places you aren't meant to go, or wondered what was around that corner past that unbreakable glass in the anomalous materials lab.

    I guess my imagination broke the first time I found noclip.

    Similarly, my love for viewing in-game scenes degraded the moment I started learning how to build my own levels - even in games where I don't specifically know how it works.

    So I end up examining where they used nodraw to avoid drawing extra triangles, or where there's a U or I shaped passageway to increase performance by decreasing visibility (which has become a little less apparent in more modern games).

    It's unfortunate because it means I need to actively try to appreciate the visual appeal in a level instead of the technical appeal (or technical disdain if it's poorly made). At least it's not as big of a problem for some genres.

    UltimaGecko on
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    TethTeth __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2009
    urahonky wrote: »
    I remember being attached to River City Ransom as a kid. I wanted to beat those sons of bitches up SO badly!

    I lived that game too, man.

    Teth on
    #1
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    LaCabraLaCabra MelbourneRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    LaCabra wrote: »
    I played Half-Life 1 when it came out and always tried to get to those places you aren't meant to go, or wondered what was around that corner past that unbreakable glass in the anomalous materials lab.

    I guess my imagination broke the first time I found noclip.

    Similarly, my love for viewing in-game scenes degraded the moment I started learning how to build my own levels - even in games where I don't specifically know how it works.

    So I end up examining where they used nodraw to avoid drawing extra triangles, or where there's a U or I shaped passageway to increase performance by decreasing visibility (which has become a little less apparent in more modern games).

    It's unfortunate because it means I need to actively try to appreciate the visual appeal in a level instead of the technical appeal (or technical disdain if it's poorly made). At least it's not as big of a problem for some genres.
    Oh man, I feel your pain. We should go to a bar sometime and share this drink we call loneliness.

    LaCabra on
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    THEPAIN73THEPAIN73 Shiny. Real shiny.Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    LaCabra wrote: »
    LaCabra wrote: »
    I played Half-Life 1 when it came out and always tried to get to those places you aren't meant to go, or wondered what was around that corner past that unbreakable glass in the anomalous materials lab.

    I guess my imagination broke the first time I found noclip.

    Similarly, my love for viewing in-game scenes degraded the moment I started learning how to build my own levels - even in games where I don't specifically know how it works.

    So I end up examining where they used nodraw to avoid drawing extra triangles, or where there's a U or I shaped passageway to increase performance by decreasing visibility (which has become a little less apparent in more modern games).

    It's unfortunate because it means I need to actively try to appreciate the visual appeal in a level instead of the technical appeal (or technical disdain if it's poorly made). At least it's not as big of a problem for some genres.
    Oh man, I feel your pain. We should go to a bar sometime and share this drink we call loneliness.

    Well it's better than drinking alone.

    THEPAIN73 on
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    UtsanomikoUtsanomiko Bros before Does Rollin' in the thlayRegistered User regular
    edited February 2009
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    METAzraeL wrote: »
    is your sig from some sort of sonic and transformers fanfic?

    D:

    No, unfortunately it's just a wallpaper. I'm sure there is fan-fiction out there, but not fan-comics to my knowledge, and I'm not big on having just text in my sig.

    But in case you didn't know, yeah, Optimus/Sally OTP.

    One day, Sall and Optimus Prime were kissing, because they're LOVERS, okay?!
    "Sally I love the fucking shit oyut of you!"
    "Oh Optimus, ever since Megatropn turned me into a man..."


    Darn kids and their short attention-spans, I wonder how many games I haven't finished that actually had great surprises/endings (I made the effort to beat my games as a kid, especially if they had real stories and endings). Shoegaze needs to tell us as soon as that kid gets back into KOTOR and finishes that level, whether it's three months from now or three years. Let's just hope it's before he starts browsing gamefaqs or whatever and spoils the whole thing for himself.

    Utsanomiko on
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    JaramrJaramr Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    LaCabra wrote: »
    I played Half-Life 1 when it came out and always tried to get to those places you aren't meant to go, or wondered what was around that corner past that unbreakable glass in the anomalous materials lab.

    I guess my imagination broke the first time I found noclip.

    Similarly, my love for viewing in-game scenes degraded the moment I started learning how to build my own levels - even in games where I don't specifically know how it works.

    So I end up examining where they used nodraw to avoid drawing extra triangles, or where there's a U or I shaped passageway to increase performance by decreasing visibility (which has become a little less apparent in more modern games).

    It's unfortunate because it means I need to actively try to appreciate the visual appeal in a level instead of the technical appeal (or technical disdain if it's poorly made). At least it's not as big of a problem for some genres.

    Im pretty much exactly the same. I was always wondering what was around that corner I couldn't get past, and then as I found noclip and began to look more into the technical stuff, my imagination broke.

    Not much more I can say, other than D:

    Jaramr on
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