[WAR]: White Cloaks are the New Black

Septus

It's in some guild tavern, for IC it's called the viper pit I think.

Klyka

Septus wrote: »

It's in some guild tavern, for IC it's called the viper pit I think.

How I mine guild rank?

Translation: It's not open for us yet.

Morkath

Oh hey, I ran into a level 25ish sort of PQ? in altdorf last night, cult of the feathered coin. Anything interesting with this?

Trying to round up people in Alt to do quests is a lesson in futility though.

Dracil

Rend wrote: »

Ryokaze wrote: »

Selner wrote: »

Itemization for upper levels (at least for clothies) is complete balls right now, greens are better than purples, up is down, cats are befriending dogs, it's crazy out there!

Well, I'm only lvl12.
But I'm using a lvl7 Staff (one of those broken staves that I repaired) that has +27 Int on it as my Waaagh!/PvE staff. I've got a +30 Will for my Healing/RvR staff.

The blue staff in the blue bag was only like +18 int, +10 init and +something willpower.
I don't think I really care about the +10 init. Unless I'm wrong there.

Initiative is okay as a defensive stat, it doesn't seem to have quite the impact that wounds or toughness does unless you can stack a ton of it (as with any avoidance type stat.)

That's an illusion, though. If you increase your resistance to a damage type by 2%, it's the exact same thing as reducing your chance to be hit by moves of that type by 2%. Your overall damage taken will be almost identical. Where it makes a difference is that the toughness and wounds in this case are more reliable, since they're always there, where the initiative requires luck.

The example isn't perfect because initiative doesn't protect against the same stuff as T and W, but against anyone who isn't stacking crit chance, you can be sure their DPS is going to suffer against you due to the lack of big hits, and anyone who does focus on crit chance is generally going to get around anti-crit defense anyway.

There is one important piece that's missing here. Avoiding the attack also prevents you from suffering the CC effects, like knockback, knockdown, root, snare, silence, disarm, etc. This is something no amount of wounds and toughness stacking can prevent but Weapon Skill, Initiative, and Willpower will.

Rend

Dracil wrote: »

Rend wrote: »

Ryokaze wrote: »

Selner wrote: »

Itemization for upper levels (at least for clothies) is complete balls right now, greens are better than purples, up is down, cats are befriending dogs, it's crazy out there!

Well, I'm only lvl12.
But I'm using a lvl7 Staff (one of those broken staves that I repaired) that has +27 Int on it as my Waaagh!/PvE staff. I've got a +30 Will for my Healing/RvR staff.

The blue staff in the blue bag was only like +18 int, +10 init and +something willpower.
I don't think I really care about the +10 init. Unless I'm wrong there.

Initiative is okay as a defensive stat, it doesn't seem to have quite the impact that wounds or toughness does unless you can stack a ton of it (as with any avoidance type stat.)

That's an illusion, though. If you increase your resistance to a damage type by 2%, it's the exact same thing as reducing your chance to be hit by moves of that type by 2%. Your overall damage taken will be almost identical. Where it makes a difference is that the toughness and wounds in this case are more reliable, since they're always there, where the initiative requires luck.

The example isn't perfect because initiative doesn't protect against the same stuff as T and W, but against anyone who isn't stacking crit chance, you can be sure their DPS is going to suffer against you due to the lack of big hits, and anyone who does focus on crit chance is generally going to get around anti-crit defense anyway.

There is one important piece that's missing here. Avoiding the attack also prevents you from suffering the CC effects, like knockback, knockdown, root, snare, silence, disarm, etc. This is something no amount of wounds and toughness stacking can prevent but Weapon Skill, Initiative, and Willpower will.

Yes, but initiative won't prevent any of those things. Initiative only evades critical hits, not normal hits. Is there CC and such that are only invoked on crit?

Septus

Klyka wrote: »

Septus wrote: »

It's in some guild tavern, for IC it's called the viper pit I think.

How I mine guild rank?

Translation: It's not open for us yet.

Reason #20 to be annoyed about renown vendors.

Dracil

Septus wrote: »

I don't know if Blorcs have worse dps, but their counter, Swordmasters, supposedly can do some decent dps when using a great weapon. You can drop the shield, if you want.

I love it when tanks don't use shields. Hate having my spells get blocked/disrupted.

Dracil

Rend wrote: »

Dracil wrote: »

Rend wrote: »

Ryokaze wrote: »

Selner wrote: »

Itemization for upper levels (at least for clothies) is complete balls right now, greens are better than purples, up is down, cats are befriending dogs, it's crazy out there!

Well, I'm only lvl12.
But I'm using a lvl7 Staff (one of those broken staves that I repaired) that has +27 Int on it as my Waaagh!/PvE staff. I've got a +30 Will for my Healing/RvR staff.

The blue staff in the blue bag was only like +18 int, +10 init and +something willpower.
I don't think I really care about the +10 init. Unless I'm wrong there.

Initiative is okay as a defensive stat, it doesn't seem to have quite the impact that wounds or toughness does unless you can stack a ton of it (as with any avoidance type stat.)

That's an illusion, though. If you increase your resistance to a damage type by 2%, it's the exact same thing as reducing your chance to be hit by moves of that type by 2%. Your overall damage taken will be almost identical. Where it makes a difference is that the toughness and wounds in this case are more reliable, since they're always there, where the initiative requires luck.

The example isn't perfect because initiative doesn't protect against the same stuff as T and W, but against anyone who isn't stacking crit chance, you can be sure their DPS is going to suffer against you due to the lack of big hits, and anyone who does focus on crit chance is generally going to get around anti-crit defense anyway.

There is one important piece that's missing here. Avoiding the attack also prevents you from suffering the CC effects, like knockback, knockdown, root, snare, silence, disarm, etc. This is something no amount of wounds and toughness stacking can prevent but Weapon Skill, Initiative, and Willpower will.

Yes, but initiative won't prevent any of those things. Initiative only evades critical hits, not normal hits. Is there CC and such that are only invoked on crit?

Initiative does affect those things. It affects all physical ranged attacks with the effect Dodge. It also helps reveal stealthed units (supposedly)

Hiryu02

Dracil wrote: »

Septus wrote: »

I don't know if Blorcs have worse dps, but their counter, Swordmasters, supposedly can do some decent dps when using a great weapon. You can drop the shield, if you want.

I love it when tanks don't use shields. Hate having my spells get blocked/disrupted.

Ok, when he does carry a shield, his damage output goes down. When he uses a 2hander, his survivability goes down.

Do tanks ever kill you? Or do you win, in general?

Tekko

Endomatic wrote: »

Okay, so I've played a Black Orc to almost 20 and so far I'm getting the feeling that I'm just a tool used by others to have a good time in this game.

I like the cover mechanic. That's great, but I can't kill a FUCKING thing.
I don't want to be Rambo, but if I fucking separate and corner another player through superior tactics and playing I should reap the reward of being able to knock him on his ass and send him for a trip to the graveyard.

But not in this game.

As a tank I'm supposed to do my duty and just be a wall for someone to be careless and stupid as fuck.

I absolutely MUST rely on someone to even kill another player. It's not feasible for my class to do it 1v1. Not in a scenario setting. I'm not talking about some asshole walking along and upsetting the balance, I'm talking about how I snare someone and simply can not do enough damage to eat through the potion that's 5 levels too low for him to kill him.

I have to have someone helping me to kill someone.

Is that right? Is that how it's supposed to be? Other classes can be mavericks and can engage and be potent in 1v1 but not tanks. They're purpose is to sit there with SAVE DA RUNTS on and pick their ass because they're useless otherwise.

Is that pretty much the dev mentality on "Tank" AT RvR?

It must be since the moment that I put on my 2-hander (which is a FUCKING SHITTY switch off for what you lose in armor and block) I get murdered immediately.

I can understand why there might be a tank shortage, they aren't a terrible amount of fun to play. Maybe it's Black Orcs, Da Plan, and their absolute requirement to use a shield.
Black Orcs look fantastic though. The personality of class is the only upswing to it for me really.

This is pretty much the same conclusion I am coming to with my Ironbreaker. I can do good by not dying and protecting people. But like you said, if I flank a strangler and get the jump on them, no sorry, its my trip to the graveyard sorry for the trouble.

Septus

Dracil wrote: »

Septus wrote: »

I don't know if Blorcs have worse dps, but their counter, Swordmasters, supposedly can do some decent dps when using a great weapon. You can drop the shield, if you want.

I love it when tanks don't use shields. Hate having my spells get blocked/disrupted.

Well, it's a choice you can make if you see that in a particular scenario, that there aren't too many ranged casters.

Rend

Dracil wrote: »

Initiative does affect those things. It affects all physical ranged attacks with the effect Dodge. It also helps reveal stealthed units (supposedly)

Oh, see, I didn't realize that. Learn something new every day, folks.

Ecko

Jebu wrote: »

Ecko wrote: »

Crap on a stick. I got new robes just now, went to dye them...when I hit accept, I had my goblin CE face on. I didn't put it in the box, and the item is out of my inventory (I was keeping it in case I got bored somewhere down the line and actually wanted to use it, even though I hate the goofy grin). Logging in and out didn't help. Bleh.

Just right click the box where the head should be and it should come off. That's what I did anyway.

Still there. I look like a git!

EDIT: I've reported the guy Teffaig for gold selling 3 times in the past 2 days, and yet he's still there, sending me a tell every few minutes even though I've put him on ignore.

Malkor

Tekko wrote: »

Endomatic wrote: »

Okay, so I've played a Black Orc to almost 20 and so far I'm getting the feeling that I'm just a tool used by others to have a good time in this game.

I like the cover mechanic. That's great, but I can't kill a FUCKING thing.
I don't want to be Rambo, but if I fucking separate and corner another player through superior tactics and playing I should reap the reward of being able to knock him on his ass and send him for a trip to the graveyard.

But not in this game.

As a tank I'm supposed to do my duty and just be a wall for someone to be careless and stupid as fuck.

I absolutely MUST rely on someone to even kill another player. It's not feasible for my class to do it 1v1. Not in a scenario setting. I'm not talking about some asshole walking along and upsetting the balance, I'm talking about how I snare someone and simply can not do enough damage to eat through the potion that's 5 levels too low for him to kill him.

I have to have someone helping me to kill someone.

Is that right? Is that how it's supposed to be? Other classes can be mavericks and can engage and be potent in 1v1 but not tanks. They're purpose is to sit there with SAVE DA RUNTS on and pick their ass because they're useless otherwise.

Is that pretty much the dev mentality on "Tank" AT RvR?

It must be since the moment that I put on my 2-hander (which is a FUCKING SHITTY switch off for what you lose in armor and block) I get murdered immediately.

I can understand why there might be a tank shortage, they aren't a terrible amount of fun to play. Maybe it's Black Orcs, Da Plan, and their absolute requirement to use a shield.
Black Orcs look fantastic though. The personality of class is the only upswing to it for me really.

This is pretty much the same conclusion I am coming to with my Ironbreaker. I can do good by not dying and protecting people. But like you said, if I flank a strangler and get the jump on them, no sorry, its my trip to the graveyard sorry for the trouble.

I think you should get XP/Renown for protecting/buffing your allies or otherwise assisting them in some way. Tooth of Tzeentch is a great example of how it can work.

Fryhole

I have no problems killing with my R16 chosen. (sword & board) I've noticed that black orcs can tank a lot better than I can though.

Malkor

Fryhole wrote: »

I have no problems killing with my R16 chosen. (sword & board) I've noticed that black orcs can tank a lot better than I can though.

Have you ever solo'd another player?

Morskittar

Ecko wrote: »

EDIT: I've reported the guy Teffaig for gold selling 3 times in the past 2 days, and yet he's still there, sending me a tell every few minutes even though I've put him on ignore.

I've had the same problem with the same guy.

I've done plenty of 1:1 with my Chosen. I struggle against Ironbreakers and Warrior Priests, but that's about it. Bright Wizards are my bitches.

Fryhole

Malkor wrote: »

Fryhole wrote: »

I have no problems killing with my R16 chosen. (sword & board) I've noticed that black orcs can tank a lot better than I can though.

Have you ever solo'd another player?

Yes.

Edited for sarcasm control.

Malkor

Fryhole wrote: »

Malkor wrote: »

Fryhole wrote: »

I have no problems killing with my R16 chosen. (sword & board) I've noticed that black orcs can tank a lot better than I can though.

Have you ever solo'd another player?

Solo - no. I mean, having 3 or more order on me and then killing one or more of them isn't 'solo' to me.

Maybe I'm just prettier and attract more attention.

Iblis

Rolled up a White Lion while I try to figure out what to play Destruction side (retiring my Magus for now I think). After playing Khaine's Embrace, I am curious... is it normal for Order to just turtle on top of their point? Seriously, my team pretty much bunkered down and refused to attack the other point. Destruction scored anyway and they just turtled harder.

I ask as I wonder if I should just ignore Khaine's Embrace now as I do with Phoenix Gate in tier two.

Aegis

If you folks are having problems with spammers still, try the mod SpamMeNot. I installed it the other day and I had not one single gold spam tell get through (it captured and auto-reported 15 or so tells, including that Teffiag guy).

SJ

BLUE DOT.

Also... uhm... well I can't really think of anything else

Blue dot!

meatflower

Haha...so the ailing economy has finally affected me by killing business at the restaurant I work at. I was just getting ready to go to work for the evening, and discovered a voicemail from 9:30AM today saying I had been cut from tonights schedule.

The good? My day of poopsocking continues.
Bad? I has no monies.

Dracil

Hiryu02 wrote: »

Dracil wrote: »

Septus wrote: »

I don't know if Blorcs have worse dps, but their counter, Swordmasters, supposedly can do some decent dps when using a great weapon. You can drop the shield, if you want.

I love it when tanks don't use shields. Hate having my spells get blocked/disrupted.

Ok, when he does carry a shield, his damage output goes down. When he uses a 2hander, his survivability goes down.

Do tanks ever kill you? Or do you win, in general?

Only if there's a bunch of tanks and melee beelining for me.

1v1, not since I got my main abilities. RDPS (especially casters) are supposed to thrash tanks. Tanks are supposed to LOL at MDPS DPS because of 50% parry and 40% block rates (at least for a Blorc) and just generally high physical mitigation. And MDPS are supposed to destroy RDPS when they get to them (it's not that hard if you don't charge them from the front)

The point is that the tank with his shield is more useful to his team vs. the tank with the 2her trying to get a better scenario scoreboard.

Yeah, you can DPS if you want. But that's like a healer DPSing.

Septus

Except healers like Warpriests, Disciples, Archmages, and Shamans do dps to varying degrees. It's not as if a tank without a shield is squishy.

There better be(and I'm told there are) plenty of situations where putting down the shield is wise.

Munkus Beaver

SJ wrote: »

BLUE DOT.

Also... uhm... well I can't really think of anything else

Blue dot!

INFRACTION!

Zek

Tanks with a 2H can still do light tanking. Guard still works, albeit slightly worse without a shield to block your share of the damage, and Challenge works the same. The main problem is that 2H tanks, especially with DPS gear, lose their survivability against RDPS so they don't last long on the front lines. Most 2H tanks wish they were Choppas and want to run into the enemy back lines to kill squishies, but IMHO they've got it backwards - DPS tanks should stay behind the front lines where they won't be targeted, using guard/challenge to "tank" without getting focus fired, and use their extra DPS to help kill attackers. Shield tanks are for pushing further forward, disrupting the enemy and guarding MDPSers.

Basically, tanks are tanks no matter what their spec is. You can stack up all the DPS you can muster but in the end you'll just be a gimped pseudo-Marauder. Heavy armor does not make up for the missing burst damage and utility(charge/stealth, detaunts, defense/healing debuffs, etc) that MDPS get.

Gnome-Interruptus

What the fuck is wrong with your black orc? Mine doesnt have any problem with doing its job, tanking and killing DPS classes. Use the tactics 'Ave Another One along with Rugged in PvP. Anything else is very situational.

Mine is L21, almost purely renown gear + some random drops from PvP scenarios.

I have close to 70% mitigation from toughness, close to 60% mitigation from armor.. shit loads of HP. I regularly make top 3 or 5 in damage dealing, and occasionaly make top 3 or 5 in healing because of my self heal.
I always always run sword + board. I am also Da'Toughest specced (purely upping the tree, no abilities yet).

I eat any non healing classes alive. The ranged classes are my bitches, they have a 10s root on a 20s cooldown... I have Juggernaut and a 10s snare on a 5s cooldown.
Use Follow'me Lead with the 'Ave another one tactic, and Trip 'em Up alternating with Tuffer'n Nails, with the Savin' Me Hide finisher.
Occasionaly throw in Right in da Jibblies for melee's or to get a very small burst of damage. Or toss in some Wot Armor for other tanks.

Ideally you want to chase down Witch Hunters, Engineers, Bright Wizards, Shadow Warriors, White Lions. If you have time to kill, knock a Swordmaster or Ironbreaker off the ledge with Big Slash. If its a Warrior Preist you can try your luck, same with Archmage. Runepriests aint gonna die unless they just run away and let you taunt them while chasing and beating them down.

Septus

Zek wrote: »

Tanks with a 2H can still do light tanking. Guard still works, albeit slightly worse without a shield to block your share of the damage, and Challenge works the same. The main problem is that 2H tanks, especially with DPS gear, lose their survivability against RDPS so they don't last long on the front lines. Most 2H tanks wish they were Choppas and want to run into the enemy back lines to kill squishies, but IMHO they've got it backwards - DPS tanks should stay behind the front lines where they won't be targeted, using guard/challenge to "tank" without getting focus fired, and use their extra DPS to help kill attackers. Shield tanks are for pushing further forward, disrupting the enemy and guarding MDPSers.

Basically, tanks are tanks no matter what their spec is. You can stack up all the DPS you can muster but in the end you'll just be a gimped pseudo-Marauder. Heavy armor does not make up for the missing burst damage and utility(charge/stealth, detaunts, defense/healing debuffs, etc) that MDPS get.

Well there you go. I don't care about charging the lines, I just want to see my big two-handed sword out sometime, and it looks like I can do that and still be effective, by helping to burn down the Witch Elf that pops up behind me and starts going after the healer.

Cherrn

I normally don't have any problems in rvr or in pve as a black orc, and I'm fully specced in da toughest with choppa 'n' blocka.

The only time I've ever felt like there was something wrong was today in a Mount Gunbad run where I consistently ranked among the lowest contributors in the public quests. This never happens to me in other PQs, and I couldn't figure out what I did wrong. Especially since another black orc with the same spec and level kept hitting the #1 spot. It was utterly confusing. Is PQ contribution only based on damage dealt?

Detharin

Personally my blorc has both a shield, and a two hander in my inventory. I swap them around based on whats going on. If my team is playing like idiots i toss on the two hander and go lay waste to squishes. Even with a two hander a tank is by no means squishy. Right now I am at just under 5k health at 26. I could probably have more but im focusing on strength and toughness ATM.

When I toss on my crit talent, and +15 % damage I can wade in and start knocking people around in tor anroc. Gotta love knocking 3 people at once into the lava.

However sometimes your team is playing smart, you have healers that are actually healing, people are supporting when you move to break their lines, and then its sword and board time.Get challenge going, hold the line to help everyone move up, and just lay waste with your guard on a MDPS.

If you went brawler once you get the knockdown and your root things really open up. That annoying healer who keeps trying to kite you gets stopped, knock down, and decimated. You spec for damage, and yes you can do damage. Your not going to do MDPS damage, however your going to live far longer than he is. There is a lot of ways to play the black orc, and each can be fun.

Elimination

Hey if anyone on Order Averheim wants in, around 9-10 est there is going to be a keep raid for i stonetroll keep i believe. We took all the flags, now we want the keep. Be there, we need the people, tried to do it before but couldn't get enough people. We will meet at the hollows warcamp near the big steam tank (its T2 in the troll area.)

WolveSight

yeah, not having any problems with my ironbreaker atm either while going axe and board. Usually in the top 3 or 4 in dmg as I just wade into the fight and start swinging at everything that cons red. The trick is to cover your healers as much as possible and not let people past you. If they do, fall back, deal with them (either by knocking them into teammates to deal with, or whittling them down yourself) and then push forward again. I don't mind being the point in the spear, but there sure as hell better be people coming up behind me when I start the push. As tanks, we "can" do good damage, but if we die as much as a bright wizard, we're going to contribute next to nothing. As for soloing other players... it's possible, just takes a bit longer than the dps classes. DoKs (the ones I've gone against 1v1), Squigs, WEs, and Marauders aren't as much of a problem. However, any dedicated healer, chosen, or blorc are exercises in futility. However, if a tank finds himself running after one person and leaving the group, there's something wrong anyways.

KiTA

For those torn on what crafting stuff to take:

http://www.merc-inc.co.uk/war.php?page=trade

Looks like Apoth is the way to go, with caveats -- everything helps with making pots (but presumably better / rare pots will need multiple gathering skills). Cultivation is the only thing that helps with making dyes. Cultivation and Scavenging gets you Gold Dust.


So, for Cultivation, which one's the best plugin? AutoHarvest, PlantMe, or FlowerPower? Looks like AutoHarvest does it without interaction at all, which seems... um... beardy.

Endomatic

I think I might give Witch Elf a try and see how that works out.

I've heard some fairly good things about them. I'll be squishy but at least I'll be able to reach out and hurt someone.

Dracil

Cherrn wrote: »

I normally don't have any problems in rvr or in pve as a black orc, and I'm fully specced in da toughest with choppa 'n' blocka.

The only time I've ever felt like there was something wrong was today in a Mount Gunbad run where I consistently ranked among the lowest contributors in the public quests. This never happens to me in other PQs, and I couldn't figure out what I did wrong. Especially since another black orc with the same spec and level kept hitting the #1 spot. It was utterly confusing. Is PQ contribution only based on damage dealt?

PQs sometimes bug out I think and don't change rankings.

Dracil

Except healers like Warpriests, Disciples, Archmages, and Shamans do dps to varying degrees. It's not as if a tank without a shield is squishy.

There better be(and I'm told there are) plenty of situations where putting down the shield is wise.

Yes, but we all know how people look at healers who're DPSing instead of healing. The thing is a shield gives you about 30-40% extra survivability. Are you doing 30-40% extra damage with that 2Her? Also, Can't Hit Me is just way too fun to pass up.

Detharin wrote: »

Even with a two hander a tank is by no means squishy. Right now I am at just under 5k health at 26.

My Bright Wizard had 5600 health at Rank 31. >_>

It's my solution to combustion damage and Witch Elves and DoK. Burst? LOL. *Nuke*

Zek

Does Toughness factor into the "# mitigated" report in the combat log?

Paradox Control

Zek wrote: »

Does Toughness factor into the "# mitigated" report in the combat log?

Yes, I believe it does.

Sterica

It's hard to hate on Witch Hunters. I mean...I'm getting killed in style.