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Square-Enix's brain controller lets you concentrate zombies to death

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    IriahIriah Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    neuromancer.jpg

    woah

    Iriah on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I should read that. I keep forgetting.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Reminded me that Neal Stephenson released a new book a month ago.

    Dragkonias on
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    joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Yawn. It has totally been done before with cult-like results.
    ep23.jpg

    joshofalltrades on
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    GraviijaGraviija Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I'm going to name my first brain tumor Cloud Strife.

    Graviija on
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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    "You mean you have to use your hands? That's like a babies toy"

    hellocomputer_1.jpg
    "A Keyboard... how quaint."

    Shadowfire on
    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    EinhanderEinhander __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2008
    Einhander wrote: »
    Einhander wrote: »
    Even if it never pans out for games, this technology will be a significant boon to people with various disabilities.

    Imagine if the quadripeligic could control his wheelchair, turn on the lights/thermostat in his house, surf the net, and change the channels on his TV using only his mind?

    Yeah but the research on that isn't happening with this company, it's most likely they're just using the research and trying to make money out of it.

    Although it could be that in trying to use it on games they might make a parallel breakthrough that could then push advances in the fields research. So it's not a total waste of time.

    It'll end up wherever there is money to be made, either through licensing, or just outright selling the research. If it ended up with a product that would be funded mainly through insurance, it would make a shitload of money. The guy who runs the company that makes PowerChairs is filthy rich.

    I'm not sure what or why we are arguing, I already said this is what they are doing. Am I not allowed to find money making unimpressive or something?


    I sorta throught we were making two sides of the same point. I was just saying that no matter how well the tech as a whole works with the game industry, eventually it will benefit people with disabilities, and I read what you were saying as pretty much the same thing.

    I'm not a scientist, but I think that the development between the two should be fairly similar. I can't see a reason why the thought process being picked up by a receiver and being translated into the electrical impulse used to move a character in a videogame forward would be too terribly different from the impulse used to move a wheelchair forward.

    Rudimentary versions of this tech have been around for quite a while, but they involved ridiculous looking helmets and extremely simple programs (one example being a 2D side view representation of a jet plane, with the user being able to control it's altitude to keep it out of the ocean below), and they required a lot of calibration for each user.

    While it'll be a while before we can control anything terribly complicated using our minds, all technology starts with baby steps.

    Also,
    btf002sk4.jpg

    Einhander on
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    vhzodvhzod Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    They're only talking about output from the brain to a machine. There is no mention of input from the computer to your brain. This is nowhere near virtual reality.

    vhzod on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    The VR aspect is that you'll be able to do things without playing with a little button in your hand.

    That said, I'm with the "Oh great, gamers won't even have to use thumbs anymore!" and the "Oh, GREAT! People who can't move their funs will get a fuller life! <3" group.

    Also the porn applications will be astounding.

    Incenjucar on
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    AntihippyAntihippy Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I should read that. I keep forgetting.

    You really should.

    This is one step closer to my dream of becoming a console cowboy.

    Antihippy on
    10454_nujabes2.pngPSN: Antiwhippy
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    Dr Mario KartDr Mario Kart Games Dealer Austin, TXRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Doesnt Sony have a US Patent on the concept of mind control in games, despite that there was no technology or methodology behind it?

    Dr Mario Kart on
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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I can see this working on exactly the same principle as waggle.

    Example: They'll have a little demo of this tech and get some random shlub. He'll think left... and the guy will move left! He thinks jump and it jumps! Everybody freaks out because it really works. But the underlying tech is that all it can do is read only the most simple of brain output and they mapped a control to it. The player could have just furrowed his brow and scratched his temple and it would have had the same effect. Like with waggle. You can make the motion of a golf swing, but all you really have to do is flick the remote slightly because the game doesn't know or care.

    Expect 5 minutes of "How the hella are they doing that?!" before the info comes out and people become disappointed that it's not really reading your mind.

    The Wolfman on
    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Has anyone made a joke about final fantasy making you even more lazy since you wont have to push circle to go to the next dialog box?

    randombattle on
    itsstupidbutidontcare2.gif
    I never asked for this!
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    IriahIriah Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Has anyone made a joke about final fantasy making you even more lazy since you wont have to push circle to go to the next dialog box?

    you could probably corner that niche if you move fast

    Iriah on
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    randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Iriah wrote: »
    Has anyone made a joke about final fantasy making you even more lazy since you wont have to push circle to go to the next dialog box?

    you could probably corner that niche if you move fast
    I was going to but I couldn't think of a good one..

    randombattle on
    itsstupidbutidontcare2.gif
    I never asked for this!
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    IriahIriah Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Iriah wrote: »
    Has anyone made a joke about final fantasy making you even more lazy since you wont have to push circle to go to the next dialog box?

    you could probably corner that niche if you move fast
    I was going to but I couldn't think of a good one..

    pretty much

    Iriah on
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    DusdaDusda is ashamed of this post SLC, UTRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Iriah wrote: »
    Iriah wrote: »
    Has anyone made a joke about final fantasy making you even more lazy since you wont have to push circle to go to the next dialog box?

    you could probably corner that niche if you move fast
    I was going to but I couldn't think of a good one..

    pretty much

    Dusda on
    and this sig. and this twitch stream.
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    "You mean you have to use your hands? That's like a babies toy"

    *snip*
    "A Keyboard... how quaint."

    :^:

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    SilkyNumNutsSilkyNumNuts Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    But no scanning method is really accurate enough even for that.

    I mean the best we can do is pretty much know that certain neural activity may correlate to objects, and that lying increases brain activity.

    Watcha tokkin about silkynumnuts.

    Imagine you are moving your hand. Parts of the sensorimotor cortex light up, even if you don't actually move your hand. If you do actually voluntarily move the hand, the same parts light up, plus other parts elsewhere in the brain related to actually telling the hand to move.

    It is going to be exactly the same as pushing a button, but you have to use your brain instead.

    "Imagine you are twitching your left hand" Character jumps.

    Etc.

    So yeah I'm not that excited. It sounds like a lot of work.

    Bullplop, sir! Depending on what technology this is based, encephalographs can't even identify that.

    Seriously, we pretty much know nothing about the brain.

    SilkyNumNuts on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    But no scanning method is really accurate enough even for that.

    I mean the best we can do is pretty much know that certain neural activity may correlate to objects, and that lying increases brain activity.

    Watcha tokkin about silkynumnuts.

    Imagine you are moving your hand. Parts of the sensorimotor cortex light up, even if you don't actually move your hand. If you do actually voluntarily move the hand, the same parts light up, plus other parts elsewhere in the brain related to actually telling the hand to move.

    It is going to be exactly the same as pushing a button, but you have to use your brain instead.

    "Imagine you are twitching your left hand" Character jumps.

    Etc.

    So yeah I'm not that excited. It sounds like a lot of work.

    Bullplop, sir! Depending on what technology this is based, encephalographs can't even identify that.

    Seriously, we pretty much know nothing about the brain.

    Before I spend the time arguing with you I want to know what field you speak from, so I know how indepth we have to go.

    I'd hate to think I memorised all those areas of the brain in neuroscience for nothing though.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    SilkyNumNutsSilkyNumNuts Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    But no scanning method is really accurate enough even for that.

    I mean the best we can do is pretty much know that certain neural activity may correlate to objects, and that lying increases brain activity.

    Watcha tokkin about silkynumnuts.

    Imagine you are moving your hand. Parts of the sensorimotor cortex light up, even if you don't actually move your hand. If you do actually voluntarily move the hand, the same parts light up, plus other parts elsewhere in the brain related to actually telling the hand to move.

    It is going to be exactly the same as pushing a button, but you have to use your brain instead.

    "Imagine you are twitching your left hand" Character jumps.

    Etc.

    So yeah I'm not that excited. It sounds like a lot of work.

    Bullplop, sir! Depending on what technology this is based, encephalographs can't even identify that.

    Seriously, we pretty much know nothing about the brain.

    Before I spend the time arguing with you I want to know what field you speak from, so I know how indepth we have to go.

    I'd hate to think I memorised all those areas of the brain in neuroscience for nothing though.

    Interested amateur really. So I'm quite possibly wrong. But I'm fairly sure we don't have the resolution for any actual interesting interaction. we pretty much just have this bit of the brain lights up, was my understanding. So the hand may move, but we'd have no control over how it moved. Which makes this fairly useless as a more advanced control scheme.

    SilkyNumNuts on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    But no scanning method is really accurate enough even for that.

    I mean the best we can do is pretty much know that certain neural activity may correlate to objects, and that lying increases brain activity.

    Watcha tokkin about silkynumnuts.

    Imagine you are moving your hand. Parts of the sensorimotor cortex light up, even if you don't actually move your hand. If you do actually voluntarily move the hand, the same parts light up, plus other parts elsewhere in the brain related to actually telling the hand to move.

    It is going to be exactly the same as pushing a button, but you have to use your brain instead.

    "Imagine you are twitching your left hand" Character jumps.

    Etc.

    So yeah I'm not that excited. It sounds like a lot of work.

    Bullplop, sir! Depending on what technology this is based, encephalographs can't even identify that.

    Seriously, we pretty much know nothing about the brain.

    Before I spend the time arguing with you I want to know what field you speak from, so I know how indepth we have to go.

    I'd hate to think I memorised all those areas of the brain in neuroscience for nothing though.

    Interested amateur really. So I'm quite possibly wrong. But I'm fairly sure we don't have the resolution for any actual interesting interaction. we pretty much just have this bit of the brain lights up, was my understanding. So the hand may move, but we'd have no control over how it moved. Which makes this fairly useless as a more advanced control scheme.

    Actually they've mapped the sensorimotor cortex to quite a large amount of the human body in terms of sensing, as well as controlling.

    You are right about eeg's being bad resolution, but there's others that are better.

    If that video that was linked is the device in question, it's most likely they are reading the visual cortex, which is at the back of the head. That's why he's telling the guy to "focus" on the object on the screen.
    That's a really easy area to measure, because you can give people a completely blank field of vision, add objects to it, and record the patterns that appear in the visual cortex. So relatively easy to control in terms of experimentation.

    So it's tne one most likely to be used by that device. If you see, the guy controlling the thing had to look at what he was controlling to make it work.

    It's not so much reading "general attention" as "attention on a specific shape". The objects were very different from each other: a big cube in a flat white room, extremely distinct. Any game using this would have to have very clear outlines or feature sets for the objects to be controlled or there would be a lot of controller error.

    But the idea that we don't know much about the brain is a giant folktale. We know a hell of a lot. Not to the detail that people are immediately thinking of when they read this thread "Wow perfect one one thought mind control!" which is decades away, but enough to do what's in that video.

    What surprised me was the creation of the computer algorythms sensitive enough to differentiate between patterns, not the measuring itself.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    SilkyNumNutsSilkyNumNuts Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I knew we know a decent amount about neural correlates, but I didn't think it was good enough to be directional. That's interesting.

    As I understood it, we can identify neural correlates of conciousness, but very little else. So we know what makes what activate, but we can't read a great deal that's useful, and we're fairly unclear about the mechanics of conciousness. I'd kind of assumed that would make it difficult to be directional; obviously stupid of me. :P

    Thanks for explaining though, that's really interesting.

    SilkyNumNuts on
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    KlykaKlyka DO you have any SPARE BATTERIES?Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    What I want to know is:

    Can I stab Aeris/Aerith with my MIND?

    Klyka on
    SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    A lot of this is independently correlated by research on individuals with lesions or problems with specific parts of the brain, as a result of stroke etc. So they specifically measure those areas in other people and see the patterns.

    We know the hippocampus has to do with generating new memories because one unfortuante guy got his removed as part of a radical operation to fix a different ailment (I'm pretty sure he had epilepsy originating there). He became incapable of generating new memories from that day forth. (He could, interestingly, learn procedural skills, like drawing an elephant etc. He also had all his old, already established memories. Just nothing we think of when we remember something, no stream of consciousness. It was like the same day every day, but suddenly he can draw an elephant real good.)

    We know about attention centers, visual centers, prefrontal cortex, etc because of both scanning, and cross correlation with people who have had problems.

    But I wouldn't say the device is reading directional signals.

    It would be reading intensity of activity "focus more, relax to release" and the algorythm would assign a direction based on intensity.

    So do a dragonball z and graaaaaaar focus harder, the thing rises. Relax, it falls. That's not the device reading direction. That's the algorythm taking a reading of increased activity, and assigning a direction. Hence why I'm impressed by them. :P

    It is not, as you say, possible to image the activity correlating to the little finger and go "ok if he twitches left, then the object moves left" it would only be "activity related to the hand has increased, make it move. It has reduced, stop it from moving."

    So you aren't far wrong. You are only wrong that we don't know much about the brain.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    SilkyNumNutsSilkyNumNuts Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Well, I meant that as we don't know much about how it actually functions, and we can't actually detect thoughts in any way. Which is why I'd be surprised with this working.

    SilkyNumNuts on
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    AntihippyAntihippy Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    It probably works the same way those robotic prosthetic limbs work.

    I think....?

    Antihippy on
    10454_nujabes2.pngPSN: Antiwhippy
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I don't know how they work.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    AntihippyAntihippy Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I think that they work by feeling the impulses sent along by the nerve endings.

    So maybe the helmet works by reading what sort of impulses (term?) the brain sents out. Or something.

    Antihippy on
    10454_nujabes2.pngPSN: Antiwhippy
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    WulfWulf Disciple of Tzeentch The Void... (New Jersey)Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    "Oh, GREAT! People who can't move their funs will get a fuller life! <3" ... the porn applications will be astounding.

    Oh my :winky:

    Wulf on
    Everyone needs a little Chaos!
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    AoiAoi Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    OMG, so old and done.

    mindlink2.jpg

    mindlink_image.jpg
    You too can look this awesome while playing games!

    Hehe, it actually worked through muscle movement in your forehead. It was supposed to be effected by basically natural movement and make it seem like it was your thoughts. I'm kind of wondering if what they're doing is a much more sensitive version of this (which was from like 83, heh).

    Aoi on
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    rayofashrayofash Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    1). It wont.

    Sorry man. Maybe in ten, twenty years.

    Isn't that exactly how these kind of things work though?

    If you watch those shows like 'Beyond Tomorrow' or whatever they always show these brain scanner things that work by the person concentrating on moving a limb (but not actually moving it). They show a little ball on the screen, and when you concentrate on moving your left arm the ball goes up, and your right arm makes the ball go down. They then used this same technology on controlling a wheel chair (left makes it turn left, right makes it turn right).

    rayofash on
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    SilkyNumNutsSilkyNumNuts Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That's a bizarre concept though. If I concentrate on moving my limb nothing happens. so would they have mapped it to concentrating on limb shaped objects?

    SilkyNumNuts on
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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That's a bizarre concept though. If I concentrate on moving my limb nothing happens. so would they have mapped it to concentrating on limb shaped objects?

    It's not like that, it's more like remembering a time that you moved your arm, how that felt, with the air moving across it etc.

    UncleSporky on
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    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    "You mean you have to use your hands? That's like a babies toy"

    Morninglord wins the award for best and most appropriate 80's reference.


    Edit: Reading page 3 made my brain tingle.

    I think this system would work well in a FPS when you want to coordinate squads and airstrikes but cannot break cover to flag the target with your crosshair.

    RoyceSraphim on
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    SilkyNumNutsSilkyNumNuts Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That's a bizarre concept though. If I concentrate on moving my limb nothing happens. so would they have mapped it to concentrating on limb shaped objects?

    It's not like that, it's more like remembering a time that you moved your arm, how that felt, with the air moving across it etc.

    I don't understand what you mean.

    SilkyNumNuts on
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    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Everyone is thinking about this entirely the wrong way.

    Fuck Waggle 2.0 applications.
    Fuck thinking about things to cause in-game actions.
    I want something where your emotions affect the game.

    I want a horror game that knows what freaks you out. I want something where there's a fake wall of fire, and you can only pass through if you believe that it's fake. I want my anger at the enemy killing off a beloved co-star in a cutscene to give my protagonist a Rage bonus, and the next swing I take with the Giant Broadsword of Penis Extension +11" to chop a motherfucker in twain.

    PeregrineFalcon on
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    SilkyNumNutsSilkyNumNuts Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Everyone is thinking about this entirely the wrong way.

    Fuck Waggle 2.0 applications.
    Fuck thinking about things to cause in-game actions.
    I want something where your emotions affect the game.

    I want a horror game that knows what freaks you out. I want my anger at the enemy killing off a beloved co-star in a cutscene to give my protagonist a Rage bonus, and the next swing I take with the Giant Broadsword of Penis Extension +11" to chop a motherfucker in twain.

    Morninglord, that possible?

    SilkyNumNuts on
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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That's a bizarre concept though. If I concentrate on moving my limb nothing happens. so would they have mapped it to concentrating on limb shaped objects?

    It's not like that, it's more like remembering a time that you moved your arm, how that felt, with the air moving across it etc.

    I don't understand what you mean.

    I don't know how I can make it plainer, but at the same time nobody can understand how it feels until you actually do it. That's just how I've heard it described and it makes perfect sense to me. It's about imagination/recalled experience, and not just picturing an object by itself.

    UncleSporky on
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    SilkyNumNutsSilkyNumNuts Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    "unfortunately noone can be told what the matrix is"

    I'm wondering how you'd detect that really, is what's making little sense to me.

    SilkyNumNuts on
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