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Square-Enix's brain controller lets you concentrate zombies to death

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    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That's a bizarre concept though. If I concentrate on moving my limb nothing happens. so would they have mapped it to concentrating on limb shaped objects?

    It's not like that, it's more like remembering a time that you moved your arm, how that felt, with the air moving across it etc.

    I don't understand what you mean.

    I don't know how I can make it plainer, but at the same time nobody can understand how it feels until you actually do it. That's just how I've heard it described and it makes perfect sense to me. It's about imagination/recalled experience, and not just picturing an object by itself.

    Picture yourself in the park on a nice summer day. Your friend walks by. You wave to him. Your arm, warm from the sun, is cooled by the slight breeze.

    Presto, you just thought about it.

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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    "unfortunately noone can be told what the matrix is"

    I'm wondering how you'd detect that really, is what's making little sense to me.

    They do it by having someone sit down and hook up. They do a neutral brain scan and record it. Then they tell the person to move their left arm and record it. Then they tell the person to merely think about moving their left arm and record that. Do the same for the right arm, and repeat with dozens of test subjects.

    Then when you play the game, it compares your brain with the test subject composite to see what you're thinking about.

    They don't literally go in your head and say "oh hey, now he's thinking about this," it's just based on external observation that when you think about x, your brain looks like y.

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    SilkyNumNutsSilkyNumNuts Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That's a bizarre concept though. If I concentrate on moving my limb nothing happens. so would they have mapped it to concentrating on limb shaped objects?

    It's not like that, it's more like remembering a time that you moved your arm, how that felt, with the air moving across it etc.

    I don't understand what you mean.

    I don't know how I can make it plainer, but at the same time nobody can understand how it feels until you actually do it. That's just how I've heard it described and it makes perfect sense to me. It's about imagination/recalled experience, and not just picturing an object by itself.

    Picture yourself in the park on a nice summer day. Your friend walks by. You wave to him. Your arm, warm from the sun, is cooled by the slight breeze.

    Presto, you just thought about it.

    Yes, but we don't really understand memory. So... how is it getting detected?

    We can't read thoughts. We don't have the resolution in scanning, and even if we did we wouldn't know how to translate them. We can read correlates of neural activity.

    I'm honestly interested, because I don't understand how that'd work.

    Unless it's pretty much just concentrating on limbs.

    EDIT: Sporky, that's what I was meaning, sorry. I was just commenting on its oddness as a concept.

    SilkyNumNuts on
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    DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I love the comment on that page, "I'm screwed i have ADD". :D

    Darmak on
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    rayofashrayofash Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    That's a bizarre concept though. If I concentrate on moving my limb nothing happens. so would they have mapped it to concentrating on limb shaped objects?

    It's not like that, it's more like remembering a time that you moved your arm, how that felt, with the air moving across it etc.

    I don't understand what you mean.

    I don't know how I can make it plainer, but at the same time nobody can understand how it feels until you actually do it. That's just how I've heard it described and it makes perfect sense to me. It's about imagination/recalled experience, and not just picturing an object by itself.

    Picture yourself in the park on a nice summer day. Your friend walks by. You wave to him. Your arm, warm from the sun, is cooled by the slight breeze.

    Presto, you just thought about it.

    Yes, but we don't really understand memory. So... how is it getting detected?

    We can't read thoughts. We don't have the resolution in scanning, and even if we did we wouldn't know how to translate them. We can read correlates of neural activity.

    I'm honestly interested, because I don't understand how that'd work.

    Unless it's pretty much just concentrating on limbs.

    EDIT: Sporky, that's what I was meaning, sorry. I was just commenting on its oddness as a concept.

    It reads the part of the brain that controls movement. When you think about moving a limb that part of the brain lights up in certain ways depending on the limb, it reads that information and reacts accordingly.

    rayofash on
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    DoomulonDoomulon Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I just want to be able to kill people with my brain...

    Which brings to mind this:

    20070409.jpg

    Doomulon on
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    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    You totally COULD make a simple brain-battle game. You damage the enemy by focusing your mind more effectively than them.

    kedinik on
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    DoomulonDoomulon Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    With prolonged use, may cause the following side effects:
    • anurisms
    • memory loss
    • chronic bloody nose
    • telekinesis

    Doomulon on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    rayofash wrote: »
    That's a bizarre concept though. If I concentrate on moving my limb nothing happens. so would they have mapped it to concentrating on limb shaped objects?

    It's not like that, it's more like remembering a time that you moved your arm, how that felt, with the air moving across it etc.

    I don't understand what you mean.

    I don't know how I can make it plainer, but at the same time nobody can understand how it feels until you actually do it. That's just how I've heard it described and it makes perfect sense to me. It's about imagination/recalled experience, and not just picturing an object by itself.

    Picture yourself in the park on a nice summer day. Your friend walks by. You wave to him. Your arm, warm from the sun, is cooled by the slight breeze.

    Presto, you just thought about it.

    Yes, but we don't really understand memory. So... how is it getting detected?

    We can't read thoughts. We don't have the resolution in scanning, and even if we did we wouldn't know how to translate them. We can read correlates of neural activity.

    I'm honestly interested, because I don't understand how that'd work.

    Unless it's pretty much just concentrating on limbs.

    EDIT: Sporky, that's what I was meaning, sorry. I was just commenting on its oddness as a concept.

    It reads the part of the brain that controls movement. When you think about moving a limb that part of the brain lights up in certain ways depending on the limb, it reads that information and reacts accordingly.

    Reads what information. All that lights up is a giant blob of neural firing in a single spot. It's not possible, at this point, to definitely map the patterns in that little blob to any one thing.

    And the device in question isn't mapping the sensorimotor cortex. That area of the brain goes from the top of your head down towards your ears, on both sides. This thing is at the back of the head.

    I was only using the sensorimotor cortex as an example, it's more likely it's reading the visual cortex.
    Which is significantly easier to map anyway, it's a lot bigger, for one.

    Someone asked about emotion: I don't know. Emotion tends to light up specific areas pretty deep in the brain, which then spreads out. Emotion can become associated with practically any part or function of the brain or body. You can have an emotion become attached to literally, anything. Wiggling toe, tummy ache, a memory, a thought, a pattern, a smell, having to pay attention to something.
    Anything.

    The algorythms to decode that level of individual variation and generalisation? Now that's what I call a breakthrough.

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    PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    no announcements yet?

    PikaPuff on
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    RoshinRoshin My backlog can be seen from space SwedenRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I welcome any game to try and read my mind.

    Come on in. I fucking dare you.

    Roshin on
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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Here we go. From Engadget:
    We already know that NeuroSky is bringing us the mind-reading Mindset for your gaming pleasures, but we got a first-hand look at the device here at TGS. At first glance, the headset may appear to be just another white set of over-the-ear headphones, but a little boom that gets all cuddly with your forehead measures how well you are concentrating on in-game objects. While this may sound like a bunch of hoopla, keep in mind that mega-developer Square Enix is already on board with "Judecca," a zombie thriller that forces you to concentrate your way into seeing your enemies. After holding up your hand, you then concentrate on a glyph that glows in direct relation to your ability to concentrate, opening up what's called your Devil's Eye. Once you're in a zen-like state, you can see Judecca's zombies and unleash some kill. You can also show your concentration skills enough to walk through walls, naturally. In our limited time trying the tech with Judecca, we were indeed able to induce some sort of concentrative state, even with the distractions of a giant Japanese gaming convention. As for how long we'd want to play something like this before switching to something involving, say, just pushing buttons and killing enemies, we're not so sure. NeuroSky promises the device in Spring 2009 for a price somewhere between $50 and $80. Hit the break for a couple shots of the device and a very tense gamer.

    neuro3.jpg

    http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/09/brains-on-with-neurosky-and-squareenixs-judecca-mind-control-ga/

    cloudeagle on
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    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Holy shit, title delivers!

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    TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Even if it works only somewhat, registering only a fraction of a small amount of what it's claiming, I can definitely see how something like this could work for Square-Enix.

    I mean, think about it. What better place to start experimenting with a new control method like this than a turn-based game?

    Taramoor on
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    CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Doomulon wrote: »
    I just want to be able to kill people with my brain...

    Which brings to mind this:

    HAET U 2 DEATH

    You beat me to it :D

    Cantido on
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    KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Man guys, everyone is thinking about this all wrong.

    Mind controlled Star Wars game

    Khavall on
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Khavall wrote: »
    Man guys, everyone is thinking about this all wrong.

    Mind controlled Star Wars game

    Now you can think about waggling your controller left and right to do a horizontal lightsaber slash?

    darleysam on
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    KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    darleysam wrote: »
    Khavall wrote: »
    Man guys, everyone is thinking about this all wrong.

    Mind controlled Star Wars game

    Now you can think about waggling your controller left and right to do a horizontal lightsaber slash?

    Wii motion plus controller is the saber.


    Mindlink thing is the force.

    Khavall on
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    MongerMonger I got the ham stink. Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Darmak wrote: »
    I love the comment on that page, "I'm screwed i have ADD". :D
    To be fair, it was my first thought. I'm considering a lawsuit for discrimination.
    I'm a bit depressed at the fact that someone probably will file a lawsuit for discrimination.
    Everyone is thinking about this entirely the wrong way.

    Fuck Waggle 2.0 applications.
    Fuck thinking about things to cause in-game actions.
    I want something where your emotions affect the game.

    I want a horror game that knows what freaks you out. I want my anger at the enemy killing off a beloved co-star in a cutscene to give my protagonist a Rage bonus, and the next swing I take with the Giant Broadsword of Penis Extension +11" to chop a motherfucker in twain.

    Morninglord, that possible?
    IIRC, one of the mind-game-controllers was using this very method to function. I remember there being a youtube video of it (binding the HL2 controls to emotional triggers), but I can't seem to find it at the moment. Maybe someone else remembers.

    Monger on
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    AntihippyAntihippy Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I posit that mind controlled zombie killing would be even more badass than star wars.

    Antihippy on
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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Everyone is thinking about this entirely the wrong way.

    Fuck Waggle 2.0 applications.
    Fuck thinking about things to cause in-game actions.
    I want something where your emotions affect the game.

    I want a horror game that knows what freaks you out. I want my anger at the enemy killing off a beloved co-star in a cutscene to give my protagonist a Rage bonus, and the next swing I take with the Giant Broadsword of Penis Extension +11" to chop a motherfucker in twain.

    Morninglord, that possible?

    Of course - mood rings have been around for over thirty years :P

    Rhesus Positive on
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    KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I posit that anyone who is not thrilled that their childhood dreams of being a Jedi and throwing people around a room just by thinking about it is dead inside.

    Khavall on
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    AntihippyAntihippy Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Man, my childhood dream was going round the world catching pokemon!

    ....
    :(

    Antihippy on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Monger wrote: »
    Darmak wrote: »
    I love the comment on that page, "I'm screwed i have ADD". :D
    To be fair, it was my first thought. I'm considering a lawsuit for discrimination.
    I'm a bit depressed at the fact that someone probably will file a lawsuit for discrimination.
    Everyone is thinking about this entirely the wrong way.

    Fuck Waggle 2.0 applications.
    Fuck thinking about things to cause in-game actions.
    I want something where your emotions affect the game.

    I want a horror game that knows what freaks you out. I want my anger at the enemy killing off a beloved co-star in a cutscene to give my protagonist a Rage bonus, and the next swing I take with the Giant Broadsword of Penis Extension +11" to chop a motherfucker in twain.

    Morninglord, that possible?
    IIRC, one of the mind-game-controllers was using this very method to function. I remember there being a youtube video of it (binding the HL2 controls to emotional triggers), but I can't seem to find it at the moment. Maybe someone else remembers.

    I really wanna see the algorythms used in that, it would blow my mind.

    That's a different device from the other video.

    Morninglord on
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    ogcam777ogcam777 Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    *snip*

    I want a horror game that knows what freaks you out. I want something where there's a fake wall of fire, and you can only pass through if you believe that it's fake. I want my anger at the enemy killing off a beloved co-star in a cutscene to give my protagonist a Rage bonus, and the next swing I take with the Giant Broadsword of Penis Extension +11" to chop a motherfucker in twain.

    I would be a horrible person if I didn't sig this.

    Edit: And yeah, brain controller gogo.

    ogcam777 on
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    CymoroCymoro Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Antihippy wrote: »
    Man, my childhood dream was going round the world catching pokemon!

    ....
    :(

    :cry:

    Cymoro on
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    DusdaDusda is ashamed of this post SLC, UTRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    For the record, that Devil's Eye thing sounds fucking awesome.

    Dusda on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Werl.

    I have adhd.

    So it'd be a great training program and a terrible relaxation device.

    I like to play things where I don't have to concentrate when I'm taking a break. :P

    Morninglord on
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    TrevorTrevor Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Hey, that sounds a little more practical. I was thinking "If I have to think 'move forwards' all the goddamn time I'd pitch that shit in the trash in a hurry".

    Trevor on
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    Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Werl.

    I have adhd.

    So it'd be a great training program and a terrible relaxation device.

    I like to play things where I don't have to concentrate when I'm taking a break. :P

    Also, you fail for telling me my first idea on page 1 was impossible, since it sounds like it's practically the same thing as this. :P

    Raiden333 on
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    KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Trevor wrote: »
    Hey, that sounds a little more practical. I was thinking "If I have to think 'move forwards' all the goddamn time I'd pitch that shit in the trash in a hurry".

    I think that this, like waggle, will be awesome when not used shittily.


    Like if this hits in a mainstream console design as a main part of the control scheme, we all know that that console will be plagued by "concentration mini-game-fest-that-sucks!", and uses the control shittily. And there'll be the TP games that get really annoying to keep swinging the damn remote/concentrating on the damn thing.


    But I'm thinking about ways that this could be used really well.

    For instance, let's say you're playing F.E.A.R. Well what if instead of hitting shift to slow down time and being kept from being super-powered all the time, you think about slowing down hard, and you're limited by how well you can keep it up while also trying to deal with the shooting and the kicking?

    Or something like a DBZ fighting game where the winner of a big giant energy attack thing clash isn't who hits the A button faster, but who thinks harder.

    Or what if you had a psychic character and to read peoples minds you had to think about it?

    This could be used in its current implementation as a really awesome addition to the traditional control scheme, in the same way that, say, in No More Heroes waggle-finishers always felt awesome when executed, without being intrusive or not using the waggle well.

    Khavall on
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    Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Khavall wrote: »
    Trevor wrote: »
    Hey, that sounds a little more practical. I was thinking "If I have to think 'move forwards' all the goddamn time I'd pitch that shit in the trash in a hurry".

    I think that this, like waggle, will be awesome when not used shittily.


    Like if this hits in a mainstream console design as a main part of the control scheme, we all know that that console will be plagued by "concentration mini-game-fest-that-sucks!", and uses the control shittily. And there'll be the TP games that get really annoying to keep swinging the damn remote/concentrating on the damn thing.


    But I'm thinking about ways that this could be used really well.

    For instance, let's say you're playing F.E.A.R. Well what if instead of hitting shift to slow down time and being kept from being super-powered all the time, you think about slowing down hard, and you're limited by how well you can keep it up while also trying to deal with the shooting and the kicking?

    Or something like a DBZ fighting game where the winner of a big giant energy attack thing clash isn't who hits the A button faster, but who thinks harder.

    Or what if you had a psychic character and to read peoples minds you had to think about it?

    This could be used in its current implementation as a really awesome addition to the traditional control scheme, in the same way that, say, in No More Heroes waggle-finishers always felt awesome when executed, without being intrusive or not using the waggle well.

    Somebody hire this man.

    Raiden333 on
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    PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    if everyone used the same circle patern to concentrate on, games could have a "hold x to show the pattern" but if you already know the pattern you don't even need to show it on screen and just start concentrating do to the things khvall mentioned.

    yeah that does sound pretty badass.

    0 expectation of games ever ever ever implementing this device though. :(

    PikaPuff on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    You need the thing to concentrate on.

    Go stare at the sky and concentrate on an imaginary circle.

    It's fucking hard.

    Morninglord on
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    PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    but it should still be an option, because hardkore mother fuckers will do it and master it.

    PikaPuff on
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    KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Also how subtly could the cue be implemented?


    I mean, what if you have to concentrate on the reticule? Would that work?

    Khavall on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    but it should still be an option, because hardkore mother fuckers will do it and master it.

    Actually, I doubt this very much.

    A lot of "hardcore motherfuckers" practise so much they don't have to concentrate on it anymore. It becomes second nature. I recently read a report that concluded experts at a skill, when asked to pay explicit attention to the step by step process of that skill, have reduced performance of it. Conversely, given a second task at the same time, their performance was better. All measurements were against a non interfered with baseline measurement. Novices showed the exact opposite pattern.

    So asking people to concentrate on what they've practised to an expert level, they fuck up.

    How do you make concentrating second nature.

    That really sounds like it has inbuilt interference in it to me.

    But I'm not making any solid conclusion though. I'm really interested in the applications of the device now. All those thousands of people off doing concentration experiments for me. Weeee.

    Morninglord on
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    randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Certainly would make star wars games more interesting if you actually had to use your mind to use the force.

    randombattle on
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    PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    but it should still be an option, because hardkore mother fuckers will do it and master it.

    Actually, I doubt this very much.

    A lot of "hardcore motherfuckers" practise so much they don't have to concentrate on it anymore. It becomes second nature. I recently read a report that concluded experts at a skill, when asked to pay explicit attention to the step by step process of that skill, have reduced performance of it. Conversely, given a second task at the same time, their performance was better. All measurements were against a non interfered with baseline measurement. Novices showed the exact opposite pattern.

    So asking people to concentrate on what they've practised to an expert level, they fuck up.

    How do you make concentrating second nature.

    That really sounds like it has inbuilt interference in it to me.

    But I'm not making any solid conclusion though. I'm really interested in the applications of the device now. All those thousands of people off doing concentration experiments for me. Weeee.
    if you're right and they force people to push the button to see the symbol, they will have to push the button to see the symbol and then concentrate.

    if you're right and they do what I ask and make it an option to push the button to see the symbol, they will be unable to do it without the symbol no matter how much they try and will have to push the button to see the symbol and then concentrate.

    in both cases the results are the same, so I'd still like it my way.

    PikaPuff on
    jCyyTSo.png
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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Has there been any more in-depth info on this. Because I have serious doubts this thing is accurate enough to know if someone is concentrating on a square versus a circle. From that blurb above, said you press the button to show the symbol, and then concentrate. But it really sounds like you don't have to think about anything specific. The player could be thinking real hard about a ham sandwich and the headset doesn't know the difference. Which just means they mapped a button to "furrow your brow really really hard".

    But, that's just what I can gleam from info so far. Is this sucker really that precise that it can tell exactly WHAT you're thinking of? Or does it just tell that you're thinking in general?

    The Wolfman on
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