jefe414"My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter"Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
Eh. I liked Bioshock enough to play it once. I hope the development team for Bioshock 2 plays Dead Space and System Shock 2. THOSE games have suspense. Use an inventory system. Item and space management are key to survival games. System shock 2 I kept a stupid pistol for most of the game because I had modified the heck out of it.
Combat should be secondary in these games for goodness sake!
Don't make my weapons on the key pad 1-8 (Eight weapons? What, am I f'ing playing DOOM?!). I agree with most of the plasmids being meh.
You know what I really hope they do? Add some more character interaction into the game. Other than the little sisters and bad guys, you could never really interact with friendly NPC's. They were always behind a pane of glass, or talking to you from far away.
Something that really bugged me about Bioshock - and I liked the game as a whole, enough to play it through 2 times - was the weapon upgrades. Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against upgrading weapons in a game, but the idea that these 'Power to the People' machines were single-use devices scattered around rapture AND none of them had been used by the splicers - it makes no god damn sense. How are you giving any real power to the people if only one person can ever use the device? I hope they completely scrap that game mechanic. Maybe something where you have branching upgrade paths but it costs money to apply upgrades, so you can buy whatever you want as long as you have the cash (this would probably require reworking how plentiful cash is). More types of Big Daddies are also a necessity I think (and I'd like to be able to use the Rivet Gun, maybe have it jump to 3rd person like in Halo 3 when you use a turret, or at least just radically slow you down in exchange for more firepower).
Also, for a city built underwater, did anyone else think that the water did not play much of a role other than creating a cool environment? I was a little disappointed that you never had to escape from a flooding building or something. It would be completely awesome if you could shoot out windows as another way of finishing off enemies (by then flooding the area), although obviously it would be hard to implement.
You know what I really hope they do? Add some more character interaction into the game. Other than the little sisters and bad guys, you could never really interact with friendly NPC's. They were always behind a pane of glass, or talking to you from far away.
You were meant to be isolated. Most of the games of this type (system Shock, Doom3 etc) use this technique to rise tension and alienation factor.
The big reveal is (amongst other things) a massive criticism of the do as you are told nature of games. Thats why the bit after sucked. Your eyes were opened to your chains, you cast them off, only to slap them back on and carry on doing what you are told.
A sequal to the game needs to address the criticisms the first game detailed or undermine the first game.
And thats going to be fucking hard, all I can think do, is set it just before the fall and let you be a citizen who does what ever you want...
I disagree. Yes, in part the twist is supposed to be a critique of how video games work. The idea isn't that you just "slap the chains back on," it's that unrestricted freedom is a bad thing, and you've seen examples of that point throughout the entire game. Also, Jack can't possibly have a goal other than what the game makes you do. If he doesn't get Lot 192, he's gonna die, so you probably should listen to Tenenbaum. After that, Jack would either want more ADAM, want to kill Fontaine for either revenge or to take his place, want to get the hell out of dodge, or want to save Tenenbaum and the little sisters. He can't accomplish any of these goals by doing anything other than what Tenenbaum tells him to do. In the good ending, Jack willingly restricts himself according to his moral conscience, which is represented by Tenenbaum. In the bad ending, in which he's exercised his free will to hurt whomever he wants for his own gain, he follows along with Tenenbaum so he can get to Fontaine, then fucks her over afterward
There's problems with the wind-down of Bioshock, but inconsistency isn't one of them.
I meant to respond to this point in the last BioShock thread we had, but never got around to it.
I think your interpretation of the story is a very good one, and perhaps the best one if you just look at the story. But the gameplay doesn't support this: the reason the first half of the game through the plot twist works so well narratively is that you the player are being manipulated and controlled the same way that Jack is. When Jack is shocked at the plot twist, so is the player.
In the second half, Jack chooses to obey Tenenbaum, yes, and that choice to subjugate himself to Tenenbaum and everything she represents is (as you have noted) a significant one. But the player isn't given this choice; the second half of the game plays the same as the first half. If, as our going interpretation of the story suggests, it is the conscious choice to obey that is important (along with, yes, the basic action of obeying) it is absurd that the player gets to make no such choice. It goes against the thematic elements of the piece, as well as weakening the connection between the player and Jack. I'm not saying I know how to make the gameplay work in context of the narrative, but as it stands it does nothing to support it like in the first half of the game
I picture the events following the scene with Ryan and visiting the Sister's hideaway being a game changer that opens rapture in it's entirety as a sort of sandbox mode. Where you can work towards either stopping Fontaine, or taking out Tenenbaum. Or neither, and just developing control of a portion of Rapture yourself. Granted this would be a huge pain.
I always felt like the game could have reasonably ended right after the twist reveal, the subsequent sections with becoming a Big Daddy felt more like publisher interference demanding some sort of action conclusion then part of the original game's vision.
Maybe ending it there, and having the sequel open up just after those events with the player getting to decide which direction to go in.
Ultimately, they wrote themselves into a corner. It's not possible to grant a player true 100% freedom, even if you made bioshock 2 some sort of new style of MMO with 100% player generated content.
Yeah. If there's a way to feasibly make the gameplay work with the written story and current technology, I can't figure it out. But now I'm thinking about how incredible and artsy-fartsy avant-garde the ending could have been if they ended it at the plot twist. You kill Ryan and then Fontaine comes on the radio and tells you he's activated a fast-acting poison inside you. You stagger around a bit as the game fades to black...
Didn't you know...
If you don't kill Sander Cohen, he comes to you after you kill Fontaine and asks if you will kill Tenenbaum.
My beliefs are: Post-BS1 timeline. Urban setting. BS1 protagonist irrelevant to the gameplay story of BS2 (some minor fluff nods are to be expected though, vox tapes etc.).
Eh. I liked Bioshock enough to play it once. I hope the development team for Bioshock 2 plays Dead Space and System Shock 2.
Yeah, if only the original Bioshock's team had played System Shock 2! Oh, what could have been.
Wasn't the team that made Bioshock the team that made SS2? Oh I see, you are mocking me :P
I was sad only because Bioshock was such a dumbed down version of SS2. It doesn't make sense to me that a game 10 years newer is more basic in it's gameplay.
I'm betting you're playing as an adult little sister. Or teen.
And that there's some sort of ticking time-bomb in her BIOlogy because they were never expected to get that old.
No. That's stupid, any game that has this(or any kind of I'm going to die if I don't do this or get that is stupid). We all fucking know they will be fine, so we don't an extra tension factor.
Xtarath on
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ViscountalphaThe pen is mightier than the swordhttp://youtu.be/G_sBOsh-vyIRegistered Userregular
I'm betting you're playing as an adult little sister. Or teen.
And that there's some sort of ticking time-bomb in her BIOlogy because they were never expected to get that old.
No. That's stupid, any game that has this(or any kind of I'm going to die if I don't do this or get that is stupid). We all fucking know they will be fine, so we don't an extra tension factor.
They could make it the awesome kind of tension :winky:
If the city in the BS2 trailer is supposed to be a literal representation of the size of the new environment, rather than a metaphoric way of saying "you're going back to Rapture", then the new city is much larger, and looks more modern than Raoture was. Perhaps the sequel is set in a new city built by someone else looking to fulfill Andrew Ryan's visions?
Now that I've watched the trailer a second time, a few observations:
- The barnacles creeping in on the logo implies to me that time has passed (meaning sequel, not prequel). This jives with the girl being a grown-up Little Sister
- The buildings growing look like they're made of sand, which choice could tie in to the "Sea of Dreams" subtitle
- What's up with the butterfly?
"Why build one for the price of one, when you can build two for the price of two?"
I picture a Chinook helicopter flying over the Pacific Ocean, carrying an elite spec-ops agent on his last day before retirement. Suddenly, the helicopter crashes into the sea, and he is just barely able to swim to a lighthouse that takes him to the brand new undersea world of Elation.
But will machine guns and black-ops training be enough to survive Elation? And what if the real enemy is... INSIDE him?!
"Why build one for the price of one, when you can build two for the price of two?"
I picture a Chinook helicopter flying over the Pacific Ocean, carrying an elite spec-ops agent on his last day before retirement. Suddenly, the helicopter crashes into the sea, and he is just barely able to swim to a lighthouse that takes him to the brand new undersea world of Elation.
But will machine guns and black-ops training be enough to survive Elation? And what if the real enemy is... INSIDE him?!
I can't wait.
Real stealth in a Bioshock game would fucking rock.
Perhaps this time the story is about Flippers Ryan, a shark scientist and industrialist who grows tired of the undersea life and builds a city on land. Aquariana. The buildings are filled with pressurized saltwater.
"Why build one for the price of one, when you can build two for the price of two?"
I picture a Chinook helicopter flying over the Pacific Ocean, carrying an elite spec-ops agent on his last day before retirement. Suddenly, the helicopter crashes into the sea, and he is just barely able to swim to a lighthouse that takes him to the brand new undersea world of Elation.
But will machine guns and black-ops training be enough to survive Elation? And what if the real enemy is... INSIDE him?!
I can't wait.
Real stealth in a Bioshock game would fucking rock.
Wasn't the original plot supposed to see you as a government cult deprogrammer trying to infiltrate Rapture and extract someone? Hell.. make that game!
"Why build one for the price of one, when you can build two for the price of two?"
I picture a Chinook helicopter flying over the Pacific Ocean, carrying an elite spec-ops agent on his last day before retirement. Suddenly, the helicopter crashes into the sea, and he is just barely able to swim to a lighthouse that takes him to the brand new undersea world of Elation.
But will machine guns and black-ops training be enough to survive Elation? And what if the real enemy is... INSIDE him?!
I can't wait.
Real stealth in a Bioshock game would fucking rock.
While I realize that it could be done right and be awesome, I'm weary to be asking for that big of a gameplay divergence.
What added to the tension of BS was the fact that you could barely hide at all, and were never sure if somebody was going to jump out at you.
"Why build one for the price of one, when you can build two for the price of two?"
I picture a Chinook helicopter flying over the Pacific Ocean, carrying an elite spec-ops agent on his last day before retirement. Suddenly, the helicopter crashes into the sea, and he is just barely able to swim to a lighthouse that takes him to the brand new undersea world of Elation.
But will machine guns and black-ops training be enough to survive Elation? And what if the real enemy is... INSIDE him?!
I can't wait.
Real stealth in a Bioshock game would fucking rock.
While I realize that it could be done right and be awesome, I'm weary to be asking for that big of a gameplay divergence.
What added to the tension of BS was the fact that you could barely hide at all, and were never sure if somebody was going to jump out at you.
That's why you could rock some face by jumping out at a splicer and hitting him in the back of the head with your wrench.
I also think you should have more choice of melee weapons. That is to say, a choice at all
You could pick up pipes in Bioshock, but not doing anything with them.
The big reveal is (amongst other things) a massive criticism of the do as you are told nature of games. Thats why the bit after sucked. Your eyes were opened to your chains, you cast them off, only to slap them back on and carry on doing what you are told.
A sequal to the game needs to address the criticisms the first game detailed or undermine the first game.
And thats going to be fucking hard, all I can think do, is set it just before the fall and let you be a citizen who does what ever you want...
I disagree. Yes, in part the twist is supposed to be a critique of how video games work. The idea isn't that you just "slap the chains back on," it's that unrestricted freedom is a bad thing, and you've seen examples of that point throughout the entire game. Also, Jack can't possibly have a goal other than what the game makes you do. If he doesn't get Lot 192, he's gonna die, so you probably should listen to Tenenbaum. After that, Jack would either want more ADAM, want to kill Fontaine for either revenge or to take his place, want to get the hell out of dodge, or want to save Tenenbaum and the little sisters. He can't accomplish any of these goals by doing anything other than what Tenenbaum tells him to do. In the good ending, Jack willingly restricts himself according to his moral conscience, which is represented by Tenenbaum. In the bad ending, in which he's exercised his free will to hurt whomever he wants for his own gain, he follows along with Tenenbaum so he can get to Fontaine, then fucks her over afterward
There's problems with the wind-down of Bioshock, but inconsistency isn't one of them.
I meant to respond to this point in the last BioShock thread we had, but never got around to it.
I think your interpretation of the story is a very good one, and perhaps the best one if you just look at the story. But the gameplay doesn't support this: the reason the first half of the game through the plot twist works so well narratively is that you the player are being manipulated and controlled the same way that Jack is. When Jack is shocked at the plot twist, so is the player.
In the second half, Jack chooses to obey Tenenbaum, yes, and that choice to subjugate himself to Tenenbaum and everything she represents is (as you have noted) a significant one. But the player isn't given this choice; the second half of the game plays the same as the first half. If, as our going interpretation of the story suggests, it is the conscious choice to obey that is important (along with, yes, the basic action of obeying) it is absurd that the player gets to make no such choice. It goes against the thematic elements of the piece, as well as weakening the connection between the player and Jack. I'm not saying I know how to make the gameplay work in context of the narrative, but as it stands it does nothing to support it like in the first half of the game
You're not wrong, but I'd argue that's part of it. Jack is making his own decisions independent of Fontaine or the player, it's just that that doesn't mean that he's choosing to do whatever the fuck he wants.
I'd also agree that the game could have very easily ended on the twist, if there was more content before. Maybe move Apollo Square to before Fort Frolic.
HerrCronIt that wickedly supports taxationRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
I grew to hate bioshock. Ohh the game was fine, but being the only irish person in the entire office having to spend my days being asked to say "splicers" "adam" or "would you kindly" made me rage.
They better have some english guy dragging you by the nose from A to B for the first 60% of the sequel, i need some revenge.
I grew to hate bioshock. Ohh the game was fine, but being the only irish person in the entire office having to spend my days being asked to say "splicers" "adam" or "would you kindly" made me rage.
They better have some english guy dragging you by the nose from A to B for the first 60% of the sequel, i need some revenge.
Jaysus, tere's sploicers everywhere! Would ye koindly grab a crowbeaaar or somethin'?
W2 on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
That little sister was lookin pretty hot, am i rite? :winky:
Anyone know where I can find a set-list for Bioshock's soundtrack, if there is one?
[edit] All that awesome vintage stuff, I mean. Not the original pieces.
20th Century Blues - Noel Coward
Academy Award - Stanley Black
Avalon - Django Reinhardt
Bei Mir Bist Du Schon (means you’re grand) - The Andrews Sisters
Best Things in Life Are Free - The Inkspots
Brother Can You spare a Dime - Bing Crosby
Danny Boy - Mario Lanza
God Bless the Child - Billie Holiday
How Much is that Doggie - Pattie Page
If I didn't care - The Ink Spots
It Had to Be You - Django Reinhardt
It's Bad For Me - Rosemary Clooney
Jitterbug Waltz - Django Reinhardt
Just One Of Those Things - Lee Morgan
Just Walkin' in the Rain - Johnny Ray
La Mer (Beyond the Sea ) - Bobby Darin
La Mer (Beyond the Sea) - Django Reinhardt
Let's Fly Away - Lee Wiley
Liza - Django Reinhardt
Night and Day - Billie Holiday
Papa Loves Mambo - Perry Como
Please Be Kind - Django Reinhardt
The Party's Over Now - Noel Coward
The Waltz of the Flowers - Pytor Llyich Tchaikovsky
This Is A Changing World - Noel Coward
Wild Ride - Faux Frenchmen
World Weary - Noel Coward
Wrap your troubles in dreams - Bing Crosby
You're Getting To Be A Habit - Harry Edison Bing Crosby
You're the Top - Cole Porter
I grew to hate bioshock. Ohh the game was fine, but being the only irish person in the entire office having to spend my days being asked to say "splicers" "adam" or "would you kindly" made me rage.
They better have some english guy dragging you by the nose from A to B for the first 60% of the sequel, i need some revenge.
Jaysus, tere's sploicers everywhere! Would ye koindly grab a crowbeaaar or somethin'?
This made me laugh much more than it should have.
Xtarath on
0
HerrCronIt that wickedly supports taxationRegistered Userregular
I grew to hate bioshock. Ohh the game was fine, but being the only irish person in the entire office having to spend my days being asked to say "splicers" "adam" or "would you kindly" made me rage.
They better have some english guy dragging you by the nose from A to B for the first 60% of the sequel, i need some revenge.
Jaysus, tere's sploicers everywhere! Would ye koindly grab a crowbeaaar or somethin'?
This made me laugh much more than it should have.
Welcome to my life.
Seriously, every fucking day for a month. Then for about a week everytime someone else gets around to buying the damn game.
Fuck you bioshock, FUCK YOU.
HerrCron on
0
Idx86Long days and pleasant nights.Registered Userregular
That little sister was lookin pretty hot, am i rite? :winky:
Anyone know where I can find a set-list for Bioshock's soundtrack, if there is one?
[edit] All that awesome vintage stuff, I mean. Not the original pieces.
20th Century Blues - Noel Coward
Academy Award - Stanley Black
Avalon - Django Reinhardt
Bei Mir Bist Du Schon (means you’re grand) - The Andrews Sisters
Best Things in Life Are Free - The Inkspots
Brother Can You spare a Dime - Bing Crosby
Danny Boy - Mario Lanza
God Bless the Child - Billie Holiday
How Much is that Doggie - Pattie Page
If I didn't care - The Ink Spots
It Had to Be You - Django Reinhardt
It's Bad For Me - Rosemary Clooney
Jitterbug Waltz - Django Reinhardt
Just One Of Those Things - Lee Morgan
Just Walkin' in the Rain - Johnny Ray
La Mer (Beyond the Sea ) - Bobby Darin
La Mer (Beyond the Sea) - Django Reinhardt
Let's Fly Away - Lee Wiley
Liza - Django Reinhardt
Night and Day - Billie Holiday
Papa Loves Mambo - Perry Como
Please Be Kind - Django Reinhardt
The Party's Over Now - Noel Coward
The Waltz of the Flowers - Pytor Llyich Tchaikovsky
This Is A Changing World - Noel Coward
Wild Ride - Faux Frenchmen
World Weary - Noel Coward
Wrap your troubles in dreams - Bing Crosby
You're Getting To Be A Habit - Harry Edison Bing Crosby
You're the Top - Cole Porter
I was just thinking about how the music in BioShock was awesome and how cool that time period in America was. I think I'll be downloading some of that music tonight.
Idx86 on
2008, 2012, 2014 D&D "Rare With No Sauce" League Fantasy Football Champion!
Posts
Combat should be secondary in these games for goodness sake!
Don't make my weapons on the key pad 1-8 (Eight weapons? What, am I f'ing playing DOOM?!). I agree with most of the plasmids being meh.
Also, for a city built underwater, did anyone else think that the water did not play much of a role other than creating a cool environment? I was a little disappointed that you never had to escape from a flooding building or something. It would be completely awesome if you could shoot out windows as another way of finishing off enemies (by then flooding the area), although obviously it would be hard to implement.
You were meant to be isolated. Most of the games of this type (system Shock, Doom3 etc) use this technique to rise tension and alienation factor.
Didn't you know...
And that it will rock. The fuck. Out.
And that there's some sort of ticking time-bomb in her BIOlogy because they were never expected to get that old.
Wasn't the team that made Bioshock the team that made SS2? Oh I see, you are mocking me :P
I was sad only because Bioshock was such a dumbed down version of SS2. It doesn't make sense to me that a game 10 years newer is more basic in it's gameplay.
No. That's stupid, any game that has this(or any kind of I'm going to die if I don't do this or get that is stupid). We all fucking know they will be fine, so we don't an extra tension factor.
They could make it the awesome kind of tension :winky:
perhaps this one is the isla sorna to Bioshock 1's isla nublar.
I mean, you gotta test underwater cities somewhere.
- The barnacles creeping in on the logo implies to me that time has passed (meaning sequel, not prequel). This jives with the girl being a grown-up Little Sister
- The buildings growing look like they're made of sand, which choice could tie in to the "Sea of Dreams" subtitle
- What's up with the butterfly?
I'm still glad there's confirmation of a sequel, though. Holiday 2009?
Twitter 3DS: 0860 - 3257 - 2516
"Why build one for the price of one, when you can build two for the price of two?"
I picture a Chinook helicopter flying over the Pacific Ocean, carrying an elite spec-ops agent on his last day before retirement. Suddenly, the helicopter crashes into the sea, and he is just barely able to swim to a lighthouse that takes him to the brand new undersea world of Elation.
But will machine guns and black-ops training be enough to survive Elation? And what if the real enemy is... INSIDE him?!
I can't wait.
Twitter 3DS: 0860 - 3257 - 2516
Real stealth in a Bioshock game would fucking rock.
I hope he has a laser on his head.
Wasn't the original plot supposed to see you as a government cult deprogrammer trying to infiltrate Rapture and extract someone? Hell.. make that game!
While I realize that it could be done right and be awesome, I'm weary to be asking for that big of a gameplay divergence.
What added to the tension of BS was the fact that you could barely hide at all, and were never sure if somebody was going to jump out at you.
Twitter 3DS: 0860 - 3257 - 2516
That's why you could rock some face by jumping out at a splicer and hitting him in the back of the head with your wrench.
I also think you should have more choice of melee weapons. That is to say, a choice at all
You could pick up pipes in Bioshock, but not doing anything with them.
Anyone know where I can find a set-list for Bioshock's soundtrack, if there is one?
[edit] All that awesome vintage stuff, I mean. Not the original pieces.
"Ragtime" is the term I'd use to describe the soundtrack.
If you search BTJunkie, you can find a torrent of the entire soundtrack. I have it, and I love it.
Twitter 3DS: 0860 - 3257 - 2516
Also, look at the little Sister's hair.
Little Ladies
It's...short?
I'd also agree that the game could have very easily ended on the twist, if there was more content before. Maybe move Apollo Square to before Fort Frolic.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
They better have some english guy dragging you by the nose from A to B for the first 60% of the sequel, i need some revenge.
Jaysus, tere's sploicers everywhere! Would ye koindly grab a crowbeaaar or somethin'?
20th Century Blues - Noel Coward
Academy Award - Stanley Black
Avalon - Django Reinhardt
Bei Mir Bist Du Schon (means you’re grand) - The Andrews Sisters
Best Things in Life Are Free - The Inkspots
Brother Can You spare a Dime - Bing Crosby
Danny Boy - Mario Lanza
God Bless the Child - Billie Holiday
How Much is that Doggie - Pattie Page
If I didn't care - The Ink Spots
It Had to Be You - Django Reinhardt
It's Bad For Me - Rosemary Clooney
Jitterbug Waltz - Django Reinhardt
Just One Of Those Things - Lee Morgan
Just Walkin' in the Rain - Johnny Ray
La Mer (Beyond the Sea ) - Bobby Darin
La Mer (Beyond the Sea) - Django Reinhardt
Let's Fly Away - Lee Wiley
Liza - Django Reinhardt
Night and Day - Billie Holiday
Papa Loves Mambo - Perry Como
Please Be Kind - Django Reinhardt
The Party's Over Now - Noel Coward
The Waltz of the Flowers - Pytor Llyich Tchaikovsky
This Is A Changing World - Noel Coward
Wild Ride - Faux Frenchmen
World Weary - Noel Coward
Wrap your troubles in dreams - Bing Crosby
You're Getting To Be A Habit - Harry Edison Bing Crosby
You're the Top - Cole Porter
This made me laugh much more than it should have.
Welcome to my life.
Seriously, every fucking day for a month. Then for about a week everytime someone else gets around to buying the damn game.
Fuck you bioshock, FUCK YOU.
I was just thinking about how the music in BioShock was awesome and how cool that time period in America was. I think I'll be downloading some of that music tonight.
2008, 2012, 2014 D&D "Rare With No Sauce" League Fantasy Football Champion!