Spent the day powering through Fort Frolic, because fuuuuck playing that section at night
It wasn't as nerve-wracking as the first time I played it though, I guess because I knew what to expect and I'm not rushing through it as a rental this time (also because the chemical thrower is awesome)
I love Fort Frolic so fucking much
especially that flooded out basement
Electro Bolt makes that room hilarious
Green on
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augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
So pretty much, in order to listen to one and really pay attention to it, you'd have to stop what you're doing and just listen.
The journals really aren't an effective story-telling device, at least from my perspective.
Yes. That's how Shock games work. You find a moment of relative calm and listen to the tapes. All the while splitting your attention between the tapes and the situation you're in. Then the tape ends and you set out to get the fuck out of dodge even more resolutely than you had before. You do not try to play them while shooting things in the face. That's not how it works.
They're effective if you allow them to be, but you obviously didn't let yourself be immersed in the world they created from the get-go, so they weren't. So there you go.
you are aware that this is also a game that attempts to be scary (your mileage may vary, i understand, let's not get into that). having a place to play catch with alyx and dog in the middle of silent hill would be dumb
the last thing games need is arbitrary stealth levels to mix it up. bioshock's basic combat wasn't the best around, so if it was more engaging maybe you might not have been wanting for a mix-up.
Yeah, but Bioshock's pacing is far more in line with standard FPSs. I mean, look at the pacing for FEAR, which alternates between battles and suspense with alma (which admittedly does have some problems of it own). Compare that to the 'tension' of hordes of dumb enemies bumrushing you, with maybe the added 'suspense' of spawning from monster closets when you turn around.
Not to mention how vitachambers effect survival horror
Well, we can agree on me not paying attention to it that much... But can you blame me? I'm out to play the game. ... It's certainly tough to explore while listening to a journal, seeing as how enemies constantly respawn and things like alarms and such are around every unexplored corner. ... in order to listen to one and really pay attention to it, you'd have to stop what you're doing and just listen.
Tough not to jump down your throat when you call a game objectively bad based on personal taste, it's a pet peeve of mine. :P
I didn't find the spawn rate fast enough to get in the way of exploration, the logs were simple enough that they didn't require much attention to fully grasp for me. To each his own really.
The isolation was definitely powerful. I played the game in a bout three sittings my first time through, and by the end the feeling of isolation was intense. It was definitely intentional in the design, and I felt that it helped to make the good ending much more poignant, as it had a situation where you weren't alone for the first time. It was a tear jerker for me.
For me personally, Bioshock was at its best when it reminded me of a nightmare. I'm dogshit at FPSs, so I had to throw myself at Dr. Steinmen a good 10 times to beat him on my first playthrough, and something about the environment, his neurotic little ramblings, the constant reviving, and the fact that I was playing in the pitch-dark at 3 AM made the game honest to god feel like I was playing through a bad dream.
Fort Frolic was the only other area that really managed to conjure that feeling for me.
For me personally, Bioshock was at its best when it reminded me of a nightmare. I'm dogshit at FPSs, so I had to throw myself at Dr. Steinmen a good 10 times to beat him on my first playthrough, and something about the environment, his neurotic little ramblings, the constant reviving, and the fact that I was playing in the pitch-dark at 3 AM made the game honest to god feel like I was playing through a bad dream.
Fort Frolic was the only other area that really managed to conjure that feeling for me.
Steinmen's opening meltdown was the high point of the game for me.
What do I do with this one, Aprodite? She won't...stay...STILL! I want to make them beautiful, but they always turn out wrong! That one, too fat! This one, too tall! This one, too symmetrical! And now...what's this, goddess? An intruder! He is ugly! Ugly! Ugly! UGLYYYYYYYYYY...!
I'd say the story was great especially with the twists that were in my face but still did not see coming the first time. What made the story so appealing was how well it went with the game itself. My point is that shakespear could have written this, but if it was just presented in the cd booklet, it wouldnt really help the game much.
I liked the radio chatter while I was playing because it made rapture feel more alive. (and for those who really got in to it, they threw them a bone with the recordings) I liked the same thing about doom3. It was 2x as good when shit was going on over the radio. I think half-life 2 was considered good because of its presentation when I feel it has an equally weak story in comparison to doom3. However, HL2 had more interesting ways of presenting it. Mainly the Propaganda animations etc.
To sum up, a good story can be made to appear great when presented correctly.
Also gonna chime in on the Fort Frolic love. Easily by favourite level of the game.
When you see the guy playing the piano, the shadows getting closer with each mistake, and then him getting blown up I was like jesus christ this guy is insane.
Also gonna chime in on the Fort Frolic love. Easily by favourite level of the game.
When you see the guy playing the piano, the shadows getting closer with each mistake, and then him getting blown up I was like jesus christ this guy is insane.
I'll assume you're asking me. I don't have any complaints about the story other than the fact that its practially the same thing as what iDs was. I think the only difference was presentation. I never understood all the acclaim half-life got for the story when the AI, graphics and gimicks were what made it such a joy. I think Bioshock took the story substance and presentation to a whole new level over what was previously considered good.
Also gonna chime in on the Fort Frolic love. Easily by favourite level of the game.
When you see the guy playing the piano, the shadows getting closer with each mistake, and then him getting blown up I was like jesus christ this guy is insane.
I'll assume you're asking me. I don't have any complaints about the story other than the fact that its practially the same thing as what iDs was. I think the only difference was presentation. I never understood all the acclaim half-life got for the story when the AI, graphics and gimicks were what made it such a joy. I think Bioshock took the story substance and presentation to a whole new level over what was previously considered good.
Yeah, the only real difference between D3's and HL2's story quality is that D3 told you what was happening. HL2 didn't explain much of anything
HL2 explained more of everything, because there was more to explain, where as D3 was "So we were fucking around with some technology or something and now demons are invading from hell"
HL2 explained more of everything, because there was more to explain, where as D3 was "So we were fucking around with some technology or something and now demons are invading from hell"
HL2 explained more of everything, because there was more to explain, where as D3 was "So we were fucking around with some technology or something and now demons are invading from hell"
HL2 explained more of everything, because there was more to explain, where as D3 was "So we were fucking around with some technology or something and now demons are invading from hell"
Replace demons with aliens and hell with Xen.
jesus christ xen is barely even mentioned in hl2
you are being stupid
But thats the underlying story. Doom3 is a remake, HL2 is part of a series...
HL2 explained more of everything, because there was more to explain, where as D3 was "So we were fucking around with some technology or something and now demons are invading from hell"
Replace demons with aliens and hell with Xen.
jesus christ xen is barely even mentioned in hl2
you are being stupid
But thats the underlying story. Doom3 is a remake, HL2 is a series...
all stories sound dumb when you simplify them that much
which is why doing that and then going 'herp derp that's why the game i like better' is stupid
HL2 explained more of everything, because there was more to explain, where as D3 was "So we were fucking around with some technology or something and now demons are invading from hell"
Replace demons with aliens and hell with Xen.
jesus christ xen is barely even mentioned in hl2
you are being stupid
But thats the underlying story. Doom3 is a remake, HL2 is a series...
all stories sound dumb when you simplify them that much
which is why doing that and then going 'herp derp that's why the game i like better' is stupid
You're seriously saying that about Doom? Because the story or the plausibility is really not the point in Doom. In the first Doom there was a scene where you rappel down off the edge of a moon into hell. It hasn't come far since then.
You're seriously saying that about Doom? Because the story or the plausibility is really not the point in Doom. In the first Doom there was a scene where you rappel down off the edge of a moon into hell. It hasn't come far since then.
Well then you know they borrowed ideas from system shock with the pda story system. So obviously theres more susbstance to the plot than what you're claiming.
HL2 explained more of everything, because there was more to explain, where as D3 was "So we were fucking around with some technology or something and now demons are invading from hell"
Did Half Life or Half Life 2 + episodes explain at all how the resonance cascade happened, why it happened, why there were already scientists in Xen, how the Combine got to Earth, how they conquered Earth, or how Dr Breen came to power?
None of these things are explained in the game. The answers to these questions are given outside of the game, and while this made the story for the series more intriguing the storytelling itself was pretty piss poor considering you wouldn't have any idea of what has happened or why without external sources.
HL2 explained more of everything, because there was more to explain, where as D3 was "So we were fucking around with some technology or something and now demons are invading from hell"
Did Half Life or Half Life 2 + episodes explain at all how the resonance cascade happened, why it happened, why there were already scientists in Xen, how the Combine got to Earth, how they conquered Earth, or how Dr Breen came to power?
None of these things are explained in the game. The answers to these questions are given outside of the game, and while this made the story for the series more intriguing the storytelling itself was pretty piss poor considering you wouldn't have any idea of what has happened or why without external sources.
Very well put. And it takes me back to my original point. You can offer up practically nothing as far as plot goes but present it so well you'd think the canon had gone on for years.
I got to admit though, as soon as I launched a sink at a combine guard with my gravity gun I could give a shit less about the story.
At the beginning of HL2, you have no idea what is happening because Gordon would also have no idea what is happening.
As for why the cascade happened, at the beginning of HL1 you put the rock into the machine, causing it.
In HL2:EP2, Eli says that 'he' brought it in, when you talk of your mutual friend. From here its not too much of a leap to assume that the G-man broguht in that rock specifically to create the cascade for (curently) unknown reasons (and possibly people, as the G-man seems to be quite the meta-physical business man).
Considering their vastly more powerful technology, its not too hard to see how the combine conquered Earth - in fact in EP2 Eli mentions a '7 hour war'.
Scientists in Black Mesa had already managed to create portals to Xen in a secret part of the base, if i remeber correctly. The Cascade create a larger link to Xen, allowing the combine access to Earth.
How Dr. Breen came to power can only be guessed at.
Though a Story does not need to explain everythign to be good. Had the story infact gone over all of this in explicit detail, i think it would've come pretty close to Buckleying the whole thing.
At the beginning of HL2, you have no idea what is happening because Gordon would also have no idea what is happening.
Sure, but the rest isn't told to you in the game except for:
In HL2:EP2, Eli says that 'he' brought it in, when you talk of your mutual friend. From here its not too much of a leap to assume that the G-man broguht in that rock specifically to create the cascade for (curently) unknown reasons (and possibly people, as the G-man seems to be quite the meta-physical business man).
That much I'll give you, but:
Considering their vastly more powerful technology, its not too hard to see how the combine conquered Earth - in fact in EP2 Eli mentions a '7 hour war'.
Scientists in Black Mesa had already managed to create portals to Xen in a secret part of the base, if i remeber correctly. The Cascade create a larger link to Xen, allowing the combine access to Earth.
How Dr. Breen came to power can only be guessed at.
None of this is told to you in the game, but Valve published a book about these elements (except maybe the Xen scientists. Don't think that's explained at all). From what I've heard, they even removed a scene where Eli tells you these things.
Eh. I never played HL1 all the way through, and only know about the portal things via reading the plot on wikipedia a while ago.
Though Eli does definetly mention the 7 hour war in EP2.
'It'll be the 7 hour war all over again, only this time we wont last 7 minutes'.
It leaves it open to interpretation, but what I get from that is that the major armies of the World were completely rendered ineffective and destroyed by the Combine in 7 hours, thus establishing their dominance over the earth.
Eh. I never played HL1 all the way through, and only know about the portal things via reading the plot on wikipedia a while ago.
Though Eli does definetly mention the 7 hour war in EP2.
'It'll be the 7 hour war all over again, only this time we wont last 7 minutes'.
It leaves it open to interpretation, but what I get from that is that the major armies of the World were completely rendered ineffective and destroyed by the Combine in 7 hours, thus establishing their dominance over the earth.
EDIT: Though this isn't about Bioshock at all
I think we're establishing what was considered par for the course as far as story telling inside an fps goes and we're about to get to how Bioshock uped the ante.
HL2 explained more of everything, because there was more to explain, where as D3 was "So we were fucking around with some technology or something and now demons are invading from hell"
Did Half Life or Half Life 2 + episodes explain at all how the resonance cascade happened
HL1 basically said that while all the scientists involved knew that they shouldn't be doing what they were doing with that rock (whatever the plan ostensibly was), and that their equipment "wasn't meant to do this in the first place", but that the administrator was pushing for it, even knowing he shouldn't ("I suspected this would happen, but the administrator just would not listen...")
Basically how and why the resonance cascade happened was Breen deliberately made it happen. Unless you're gonna define "how" in a hard science sense.
why there were already scientists in Xen
A scientist explains in HL1 that they had sent several survey teams out basically to conduct research and collect specimens, which they did well until shit got dangerous. This happens just before you jump in the portal to Xen.
how the Combine got to Earth
In Half-Life 2 all you're told explicitly is that they used huge portals, and those portals are only good for long-distance travel (like between universes). In Episode 1 Kleiner expands this to state that specifically, the resonance cascade was what allowed them to come through from their universe.
how they conquered Earth
Eli tells you at Black Mesa East in HL2 that there was a seven hour war of mankind against the combine, and that we lost. Personally I thought that was enough to convey that the combine conquered earth by sheer overwhelming force.
or how Dr Breen came to power?
In the same scene in HL2, Eli tells you that "Doctor Breen ended the seven hour war by managing Earth's surrender. The Combine rewarded him with power." The noticeboard on the wall has a bunch of newspaper clippings explaining further with stuff like "doctor breen declared earth's administrator".
None of these things are explained in the game.
I think you'll find all of these things are explained in the game.
LaCabra on
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augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
The story of HL2 is about discovering what happened to earth. Aliens never invade during the game, instead they have already invaded and taken over earth. They have enslaved the population and horrible things are happening throughout the world, with the very landscape itself changing.
The story, in the end, is about the resistance and the struggle to dismantle the combine powerhold as well as solving the mystery as to who they are and what they want while trying to survive the new reality you're thrown into.
And a lot is said inside the game. Like how the aliens got to earth and how earth was defeated and what the combine are doing to their prisoners etc. It also ties a lot into the first game and you slowly get a sense of the bigger picture as you listen to the dialogue in the game and experience the important events. It's just that you'll find a lot of this in paper clips and discarded newspapers and small snippets of casual dialogue and graffiti rather than told to your face by some random NPC.
Oh and the characters in HL2 are much better and richer and more actualized than the ones in Bioshock as well, and I think it's the characters that elevate HL2 to one of the best games ever.
I think Bioshocks greatest character was the city itself. The people in the game felt quite underdeveloped though, and you do not get much exposure to them other than through text and audio clips, much like in Doom or F.E.A.R.
In the end, I think the potential was there to take Bioshocks story to the next level, but certain elements were missing from the mix and the good parts were never really capitalized on except for a few brief moments.
Warning, hating ahead;
and the gameplay was not too great either and the good/bad system was a colossal failure and the conclusion with the ending was abysmal.
I disagree but I do see your perspective. The setting in HL2 allowed for more non-protagonist exposure becase Gordon wasn't alone. I havent played fear but I suspect I need to since I see it being thrown around in this thread.
There was plenty of what id call story telling via "world ambience" in doom3 as well. Granted a lot of it was front loaded but it was still there.
I see where you think the good/bad system was a failure...the money shot sucked. But atleast theres 2 different ways to get pladmids through the game. I felt it was a welcome extra that got me to play the game twice.
I was under the impression that the whole "Seven Hour War" was explained in a cutscene that was removed from the game. It has been a while since I played Half Life 2 all the way through, though.
Posts
Electro Bolt makes that room hilarious
Yes. That's how Shock games work. You find a moment of relative calm and listen to the tapes. All the while splitting your attention between the tapes and the situation you're in. Then the tape ends and you set out to get the fuck out of dodge even more resolutely than you had before. You do not try to play them while shooting things in the face. That's not how it works.
They're effective if you allow them to be, but you obviously didn't let yourself be immersed in the world they created from the get-go, so they weren't. So there you go.
Yeah, but Bioshock's pacing is far more in line with standard FPSs. I mean, look at the pacing for FEAR, which alternates between battles and suspense with alma (which admittedly does have some problems of it own). Compare that to the 'tension' of hordes of dumb enemies bumrushing you, with maybe the added 'suspense' of spawning from monster closets when you turn around.
Not to mention how vitachambers effect survival horror
Tough not to jump down your throat when you call a game objectively bad based on personal taste, it's a pet peeve of mine. :P
I didn't find the spawn rate fast enough to get in the way of exploration, the logs were simple enough that they didn't require much attention to fully grasp for me. To each his own really.
The isolation was definitely powerful. I played the game in a bout three sittings my first time through, and by the end the feeling of isolation was intense. It was definitely intentional in the design, and I felt that it helped to make the good ending much more poignant, as it had a situation where you weren't alone for the first time. It was a tear jerker for me.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
Fort Frolic was the only other area that really managed to conjure that feeling for me.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
When the game became more focused on combat or fetch quests than environment and story it suffered pretty heavily.
LoL: BunyipAristocrat
Steinmen's opening meltdown was the high point of the game for me.
I liked the radio chatter while I was playing because it made rapture feel more alive. (and for those who really got in to it, they threw them a bone with the recordings) I liked the same thing about doom3. It was 2x as good when shit was going on over the radio. I think half-life 2 was considered good because of its presentation when I feel it has an equally weak story in comparison to doom3. However, HL2 had more interesting ways of presenting it. Mainly the Propaganda animations etc.
To sum up, a good story can be made to appear great when presented correctly.
Aliens invade from Xen? And imo just because theres complication in the plot doesn't a good story make.
o_O
Also gonna chime in on the Fort Frolic love. Easily by favourite level of the game.
I'll assume you're asking me. I don't have any complaints about the story other than the fact that its practially the same thing as what iDs was. I think the only difference was presentation. I never understood all the acclaim half-life got for the story when the AI, graphics and gimicks were what made it such a joy. I think Bioshock took the story substance and presentation to a whole new level over what was previously considered good.
Yeah, the only real difference between D3's and HL2's story quality is that D3 told you what was happening. HL2 didn't explain much of anything
Replace demons with aliens and hell with Xen.
jesus christ xen is barely even mentioned in hl2
you are being stupid
But thats the underlying story. Doom3 is a remake, HL2 is part of a series...
all stories sound dumb when you simplify them that much
which is why doing that and then going 'herp derp that's why the game i like better' is stupid
...I said they were equal.
Did you even play Doom3 dude?
Well then you know they borrowed ideas from system shock with the pda story system. So obviously theres more susbstance to the plot than what you're claiming.
Did Half Life or Half Life 2 + episodes explain at all how the resonance cascade happened, why it happened, why there were already scientists in Xen, how the Combine got to Earth, how they conquered Earth, or how Dr Breen came to power?
None of these things are explained in the game. The answers to these questions are given outside of the game, and while this made the story for the series more intriguing the storytelling itself was pretty piss poor considering you wouldn't have any idea of what has happened or why without external sources.
Very well put. And it takes me back to my original point. You can offer up practically nothing as far as plot goes but present it so well you'd think the canon had gone on for years.
I got to admit though, as soon as I launched a sink at a combine guard with my gravity gun I could give a shit less about the story.
At the beginning of HL2, you have no idea what is happening because Gordon would also have no idea what is happening.
As for why the cascade happened, at the beginning of HL1 you put the rock into the machine, causing it.
In HL2:EP2, Eli says that 'he' brought it in, when you talk of your mutual friend. From here its not too much of a leap to assume that the G-man broguht in that rock specifically to create the cascade for (curently) unknown reasons (and possibly people, as the G-man seems to be quite the meta-physical business man).
Considering their vastly more powerful technology, its not too hard to see how the combine conquered Earth - in fact in EP2 Eli mentions a '7 hour war'.
Scientists in Black Mesa had already managed to create portals to Xen in a secret part of the base, if i remeber correctly. The Cascade create a larger link to Xen, allowing the combine access to Earth.
How Dr. Breen came to power can only be guessed at.
Though a Story does not need to explain everythign to be good. Had the story infact gone over all of this in explicit detail, i think it would've come pretty close to Buckleying the whole thing.
Sure, but the rest isn't told to you in the game except for:
That much I'll give you, but:
None of this is told to you in the game, but Valve published a book about these elements (except maybe the Xen scientists. Don't think that's explained at all). From what I've heard, they even removed a scene where Eli tells you these things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_life_2#Plot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_3#Plot
Though Eli does definetly mention the 7 hour war in EP2.
'It'll be the 7 hour war all over again, only this time we wont last 7 minutes'.
It leaves it open to interpretation, but what I get from that is that the major armies of the World were completely rendered ineffective and destroyed by the Combine in 7 hours, thus establishing their dominance over the earth.
EDIT: Though this isn't about Bioshock at all
I think we're establishing what was considered par for the course as far as story telling inside an fps goes and we're about to get to how Bioshock uped the ante.
Basically how and why the resonance cascade happened was Breen deliberately made it happen. Unless you're gonna define "how" in a hard science sense.
A scientist explains in HL1 that they had sent several survey teams out basically to conduct research and collect specimens, which they did well until shit got dangerous. This happens just before you jump in the portal to Xen.
In Half-Life 2 all you're told explicitly is that they used huge portals, and those portals are only good for long-distance travel (like between universes). In Episode 1 Kleiner expands this to state that specifically, the resonance cascade was what allowed them to come through from their universe.
Eli tells you at Black Mesa East in HL2 that there was a seven hour war of mankind against the combine, and that we lost. Personally I thought that was enough to convey that the combine conquered earth by sheer overwhelming force.
In the same scene in HL2, Eli tells you that "Doctor Breen ended the seven hour war by managing Earth's surrender. The Combine rewarded him with power." The noticeboard on the wall has a bunch of newspaper clippings explaining further with stuff like "doctor breen declared earth's administrator".
I think you'll find all of these things are explained in the game.
Yes I'm sure we could spend pages discussing the moving characters and purposeful ambiguity of the Doom 3 narrative.
I mean, remember that one time you shot that demon in the face? It made so much more sense later on, when you shot another demon in the face.
The story, in the end, is about the resistance and the struggle to dismantle the combine powerhold as well as solving the mystery as to who they are and what they want while trying to survive the new reality you're thrown into.
And a lot is said inside the game. Like how the aliens got to earth and how earth was defeated and what the combine are doing to their prisoners etc. It also ties a lot into the first game and you slowly get a sense of the bigger picture as you listen to the dialogue in the game and experience the important events. It's just that you'll find a lot of this in paper clips and discarded newspapers and small snippets of casual dialogue and graffiti rather than told to your face by some random NPC.
Oh and the characters in HL2 are much better and richer and more actualized than the ones in Bioshock as well, and I think it's the characters that elevate HL2 to one of the best games ever.
I think Bioshocks greatest character was the city itself. The people in the game felt quite underdeveloped though, and you do not get much exposure to them other than through text and audio clips, much like in Doom or F.E.A.R.
In the end, I think the potential was there to take Bioshocks story to the next level, but certain elements were missing from the mix and the good parts were never really capitalized on except for a few brief moments.
Warning, hating ahead;
Dude, wrong chapter. Its rocket to the face at the climax.
I disagree but I do see your perspective. The setting in HL2 allowed for more non-protagonist exposure becase Gordon wasn't alone. I havent played fear but I suspect I need to since I see it being thrown around in this thread.
There was plenty of what id call story telling via "world ambience" in doom3 as well. Granted a lot of it was front loaded but it was still there.
I see where you think the good/bad system was a failure...the money shot sucked. But atleast theres 2 different ways to get pladmids through the game. I felt it was a welcome extra that got me to play the game twice.