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So, What's So Wrong About The Fairness Doctrine?

AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
edited October 2008 in Debate and/or Discourse
I wonder why so many people here seem to have a problem with the Fairness Doctrine. Even more startling to me is when people complain about how the public has basically leaped on all sorts of stupid rumors, but when the Fairness Doctrine is brought up as a solution, it is decried as being a restriction on speech. A large part of this is that many people don't understand what the Fairness Doctrine is in the first place. All the Fairness Doctrine says is that on transmission mediums where access is controlled by the government (i.e. radio and TV), licensees are required to present controversial matters of import in a fair manner. In most cases, this is done by allowing for a counterpoint.

The most common arument presented in opposition is "It's a restriction on speech!" However, there's nothing in the Fairness Doctrine that prohibits what a speaker can say. All it states is that if the speaker is speaking on a controversy, that a counterpoint be provided for. Some famous examples of this are McCarthy's appearance on See It Now and ABC allowing the US military to rebut the movie The Day After on the episode of Nightline following the airing. Of course, some critics argue that the mere requirement of a counterpoint is a restriction on speech - but if we were to follow that argument to its logical conclusion, it would establish that the government would have no right to restrict what a licensee could do with the broadcast spectrum allocated to them.

When one looks at opposition to the Fairness Doctrine, it quickly becomes clear that it's a product of the right for the most part (leftward criticisms tend to focus more on it being a distraction from other flaws in the broadcast structure in the US.) The rationale for this becomes clear when one looks at the "echo chamber" model that conservative media has been using for the past two decades - their system relies on being able to drown out other views by deluging the waves with their viewpoint alone. If they were forced to allow for a counterpoint, it would severely damage this model.

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Posts

  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    So, under the Fairness Doctrine, would a TV or radio show commenting on biology curricula in public schools have to give equal time to the evolution and Creationist viewpoints?

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • JebusUDJebusUD Adventure! Candy IslandRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Does it in some ways force a counter point when there may not be one. In a way making people think there is much wider controversy over somthing when there really isn't? It seems to promote a stasis of public opinion.

    JebusUD on
    and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
    but they're listening to every word I say
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    How do you determine what is or isn't a controversy?

    Robos A Go Go on
  • edited October 2008
    This content has been removed.

  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    So how is the Fairness Doctrine applied? Equal time, right? Does it require that both counterpoints be voiced by equally intelligent, articulated, informed people? Does the lighting, editing, background music, makeup have to be comparable?

    Can I use Sam Harris for one side of a debate and Nicole Ritchie for the other?

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Of course, some critics argue that the mere requirement of a counterpoint is a restriction on speech - but if we were to follow that argument to its logical conclusion, it would establish that the government would have no right to restrict what a licensee could do with the broadcast spectrum allocated to them.

    The government doesn't have a natural right to restrict what licensee's are allowed to do with their broadcast spectrum. Why the fuck should the government block obscene/profane/indecent materials? It makes no sense.

    So yeah, anything we can do to remove barriers to free speech or prevent further barriers being put up is a good thing.

    zerg rush on
  • Ghandi 2Ghandi 2 Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Very long, and yes, very right wing.

    The reason Thanatos opposes it as well is because the FCC itself said that it had a chilling effect on the news, as well as many other people besides Ronald Reagan. The news stations just didn't report controversial issues unless they absolutely had to, because why would they want to risk having their license revoked?

    Also, a government organization watching everything you say and being able to silence you if it is displeased is foolproof.

    Ghandi 2 on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    So how is the Fairness Doctrine applied? Equal time, right? Does it require that both counterpoints be voiced by equally intelligent, articulated, informed people? Does the lighting, editing, background music, makeup have to be comparable?

    Can I use Sam Harris for one side of a debate and Nicole Ritchie for the other?

    No, it's not equal time, just that time for a counterpoint is provided. This focus on "equal" is one of the stumbling points that I see some leftward criticisms make - that somehow both sides have to be treated equally in all ways for the debate to be "fair".

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I wonder why so many people here seem to have a problem with the Fairness Doctrine. Even more startling to me is when people complain about how the public has basically leaped on all sorts of stupid rumors, but when the Fairness Doctrine is brought up as a solution, it is decried as being a restriction on speech. A large part of this is that many people don't understand what the Fairness Doctrine is in the first place. All the Fairness Doctrine says is that on transmission mediums where access is controlled by the government (i.e. radio and TV), licensees are required to present controversial matters of import in a fair manner. In most cases, this is done by allowing for a counterpoint.

    The most common arument presented in opposition is "It's a restriction on speech!" However, there's nothing in the Fairness Doctrine that prohibits what a speaker can say. All it states is that if the speaker is speaking on a controversy, that a counterpoint be provided for. Some famous examples of this are McCarthy's appearance on See It Now and ABC allowing the US military to rebut the movie The Day After on the episode of Nightline following the airing. Of course, some critics argue that the mere requirement of a counterpoint is a restriction on speech - but if we were to follow that argument to its logical conclusion, it would establish that the government would have no right to restrict what a licensee could do with the broadcast spectrum allocated to them.

    When one looks at opposition to the Fairness Doctrine, it quickly becomes clear that it's a product of the right for the most part (leftward criticisms tend to focus more on it being a distraction from other flaws in the broadcast structure in the US.) The rationale for this becomes clear when one looks at the "echo chamber" model that conservative media has been using for the past two decades - their system relies on being able to drown out other views by deluging the waves with their viewpoint alone. If they were forced to allow for a counterpoint, it would severely damage this model.

    The end result of such presentations is a chilling effect, even if it isn't overt.

    And any legislative chilling effect on speech is censorship, as far as I'm concerned.


    edit: And I typed this without even reading Ghandi's post.

    Drez on
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  • Ghandi 2Ghandi 2 Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Drez wrote: »
    edit: And I typed this without even reading Ghandi's post.
    That's because great minds think alike.

    Ghandi 2 on
  • JebusUDJebusUD Adventure! Candy IslandRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Maybe it promotes these yelling contest shows like "hardball" and nobody wants that.

    I mean, what simpler way to have both sides represented then to have them both sitting at a table frothing at the mouth and turning red?

    JebusUD on
    and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
    but they're listening to every word I say
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    When did every issue suddenly become two sided? There are a near infinite number of counterpoints that any proposal could arouse and then a cascading number of retorts to the original counter. How do you decide on which ones are worthy of response time, and how can you justify ignoring the others?

    moniker on
  • zerg rushzerg rush Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Today on Fox News, "Is Barack Obama a closet Muslim?" Our experts say yes. Later on in the segment we'll bring in the counterpoint who says no, he actually parades his Muslim faith around.

    zerg rush on
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Frankly, I'm not even a fan of the FCC. I don't think the airwaves are currently something that need more regulating.

    durandal4532 on
    We're all in this together
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I wonder why so many people here seem to have a problem with the Fairness Doctrine. Even more startling to me is when people complain about how the public has basically leaped on all sorts of stupid rumors, but when the Fairness Doctrine is brought up as a solution, it is decried as being a restriction on speech. A large part of this is that many people don't understand what the Fairness Doctrine is in the first place. All the Fairness Doctrine says is that on transmission mediums where access is controlled by the government (i.e. radio and TV), licensees are required to present controversial matters of import in a fair manner. In most cases, this is done by allowing for a counterpoint.

    The most common arument presented in opposition is "It's a restriction on speech!" However, there's nothing in the Fairness Doctrine that prohibits what a speaker can say. All it states is that if the speaker is speaking on a controversy, that a counterpoint be provided for. Some famous examples of this are McCarthy's appearance on See It Now and ABC allowing the US military to rebut the movie The Day After on the episode of Nightline following the airing. Of course, some critics argue that the mere requirement of a counterpoint is a restriction on speech - but if we were to follow that argument to its logical conclusion, it would establish that the government would have no right to restrict what a licensee could do with the broadcast spectrum allocated to them.

    When one looks at opposition to the Fairness Doctrine, it quickly becomes clear that it's a product of the right for the most part (leftward criticisms tend to focus more on it being a distraction from other flaws in the broadcast structure in the US.) The rationale for this becomes clear when one looks at the "echo chamber" model that conservative media has been using for the past two decades - their system relies on being able to drown out other views by deluging the waves with their viewpoint alone. If they were forced to allow for a counterpoint, it would severely damage this model.
    All this would do would be to make more shows like Hannity & Colmes.

    Thanatos on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Frankly, I'm not even a fan of the FCC. I don't think the airwaves are currently something that need more regulating.

    Especially when it comes to Carlin specials. May he rest in peace.

    All we really need, in my opinion, is enough control to ensure that there isn't any disputes over who owns what frequency where and such. Also, any station that buys out an existing frequency needs to say that before I have to wake up to some stupid fucking morning show rather than classic rock.

    moniker on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    All this would do would be to make more shows like Hannity & Colmes.

    Who is it that has the sig about the dom & sub stylings of HANNITY! and (colmes)?

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • TrowizillaTrowizilla Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Feral wrote: »
    All this would do would be to make more shows like Hannity & Colmes.

    Who is it that has the sig about the dom & sub stylings of HANNITY! and (colmes)?

    I'm sure there is fanfic of this.

    Anyway, I see no way to enforce this without going through the Ridiculous Gate into the Stupid Dimension. Basically everything can be considered controversial by someone. Sometimes a controversial (or not) issue has several sides, some of them logical and well-reasoned and the other based on frothing idiocy. If the news reports on the anniversary of the moon landing, do they have to present the "It was totally faked!" viewpoint as well? How about Holocaust deniers? Evolution is a good one, too. If a report about the Westboro Baptist Church picketing a soldier's funeral, do you need someone on the air to talk about how God hates fags and the dead soldier is going to hell for supporting the New Sodom? Nuh-uh.

    Being too biased is already bad for a news source if they actually value being known for journalistic integrity. Who besides wingnuts thinks Fox News is "fair" or "balanced"? Fox's strategy is working for them right now because the US is full of wingnuts who enjoy having a persecution complex, but their journalistic stock is extraordinarily low. If the wingnut percentage goes down, they'll lose viewership and either have to work on changing their image or lose tons of money.

    Trowizilla on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited October 2008
    I'm not a big fan of Fairness.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Education should not be a democracy, it should be a meritocracy.

    Incenjucar on
  • DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Frankly, I'm not even a fan of the FCC. I don't think the airwaves are currently something that need more regulating.

    Hey, now, the FCC has plenty of important purposes. They're the reason why radio stations can exist without some of them deliberately interfering with others to cut out competition. It's once they started regulating content when things went wrong.

    Daedalus on
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    The Fairness Doctrine sounds to me like a bunch of wishy-washy Golden Mean bullshit.

    DarkPrimus on
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    The principle of "due impartiality" works very well in the UK.
    In News Programmes

    * News, in whatever form, must be reported with due accuracy and presented with due impartiality. Presenting a story or item with "due impartiality" means presenting it in an appropriately balanced and fair way.

    * Significant mistakes in news should normally be acknowledged and corrected on air quickly. Corrections should be appropriately scheduled.

    * Politicians must not be used as newsreaders, interviewers or reporters in news programmes unless, exceptionally, it is editorially justified, in which case that person's political allegiance must be made clear to viewers.


    In Non-News Programmes

    * Programmes dealing with matters of political or industrial controversy or matters relating to current public policy must be duly impartial. Whilst in most cases individual programmes should be duly impartial in themselves, impartiality can be achieved over a series of programmes taken as a whole. However, wherever impartiality is to be achieved over two or more programmes, this should be made clear to viewers e.g. by an on-air announcement immediately prior to each programme. In addition, views and facts must not be misrepresented and should be presented with due weight over appropriate timeframes.

    * Any personal interest of a reporter or presenter, which would call into question the due impartiality of the programme, must be made clear to the audience.

    * Presenters and reporters (or a chair in a discussion programme) can express their own views on matters of political or industrial controversy or matters relating to current public policy as long as alternative viewpoints are represented and due impartiality is achieved either within the programme itself or within a series of programmes taken as a whole.

    * "Personal view" or "authored" programmes, which present a particular view or perspective must be clearly signalled to viewers as being so at the outset. Producers must seek advice from the programme lawyer at an early stage.

    * Major matters. In addition to the above rules, in relation to major matters of political or industrial controversy and major matters relating to current public policy e.g. matters of national or international importance, a programme or clearly linked programmes must include and give due weight to an appropriately wide range of significant views and views and facts must not be misrepresented.


    The effectiveness of this regulatory framework is evinced by the trust the public has in television news, as opposed to the newspapers - it's around 70% trust in television, 6% trust in newspapers.

    Æthelred on
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  • edited October 2008
    This content has been removed.

  • ZoolanderZoolander Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I can't believe this is an idea taken seriously.

    Zoolander on
  • KungFuKungFu Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I'm pretty "left" and I think The Fairness Doctrine is a load of shit. There's all sorts of problems with just how do you provide the fair counterpoints (as people have already began pointing out before me) and how is it enforced and regulated?

    And I do think it is a bit of an attack on free speech. I absolutely detest the mainstream media, bad journalism and media bias - but I don't think it is up the government to tell the media how to report on news. I hate Fox News, but I don't think forcing them to report differently solves the problem that there are a lot of crazy people out there who want to distort the news. It just dresses them up in costumes to run some sort of media theatre.

    tldr - what Than said about Hannity & Colmes.

    KungFu on
    Theft 4 Bread
  • wishdawishda Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    The Fairness Doctrine didn't mandate that a network had to make time for a rebuttal every time a controversial subject was aired. As it was practiced, the Fairness Doctrine ensured that any time a party, organization or person was the subject of a a negative report, the station had a duty to provide the target of the report with time for a rebuttal.

    That means that every story on biology would not need a counterpoint by the religious right. It would mean that a story directly attacking the religious right - or the Democrats - would require some time for the religious right to say their piece.

    The Republicans worked hard to get rid of the Fairness Doctrine, claiming it was a violation of the First Amendment. Then they turned around and created right wing talk radio. In an industry with the Fairness Doctrine, every episode of Rush Limbaugh would have to have a few minutes of uncensored rebuttal from whoever Rush attacked that day.

    wishda on
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    "Coming up next in our Fairness Forum, a woman was raped at a Chess Club Championship yesterday. With us today are TweedleDee who advocates stricter punishment for rapists, and TweedleDumbfuck who claims rape should be legal."

    Kagera on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    Am I correct in assuming the Fairness Doctrine was basically conceived by a bunch of Dems who said, "Wow, rightwing radio is a fucking cesspool, and liberals can't seem to put together a salable radio show. We need some legislatin'!"?

    Outside of talk radio, is there some arena where both sides aren't being adequately represented? Because generally, I'd say we have more problem with the news media manufacturing two sides to a story where there's only one in the name of "balance". I really don't want to encourage that bullshit - we have enough news coverage of Creationism/UFOs/global-warming-is-a-hoax/Bigfoot/etc.

    ElJeffe on
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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Am I correct in assuming the Fairness Doctrine was basically conceived by a bunch of Dems who said, "Wow, rightwing radio is a fucking cesspool, and liberals can't seem to put together a salable radio show. We need some legislatin'!"?

    Outside of talk radio, is there some arena where both sides aren't being adequately represented? Because generally, I'd say we have more problem with the news media manufacturing two sides to a story where there's only one in the name of "balance". I really don't want to encourage that bullshit - we have enough news coverage of Creationism/UFOs/global-warming-is-a-hoax/Bigfoot/etc.
    Actually, the Fairness Doctrine was around long before right-wing talk radio was big.

    Thanatos on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    wishda wrote: »
    The Fairness Doctrine didn't mandate that a network had to make time for a rebuttal every time a controversial subject was aired. As it was practiced, the Fairness Doctrine ensured that any time a party, organization or person was the subject of a a negative report, the station had a duty to provide the target of the report with time for a rebuttal.

    That means that every story on biology would not need a counterpoint by the religious right. It would mean that a story directly attacking the religious right - or the Democrats - would require some time for the religious right to say their piece.

    The Republicans worked hard to get rid of the Fairness Doctrine, claiming it was a violation of the First Amendment. Then they turned around and created right wing talk radio. In an industry with the Fairness Doctrine, every episode of Rush Limbaugh would have to have a few minutes of uncensored rebuttal from whoever Rush attacked that day.
    No, it would have a few minutes of rebuttal from the most idiotic, mouth-breathing retard Rush could find who espoused an opposing view.

    Again, see Hannity & Colmes.

    Thanatos on
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Am I correct in assuming the Fairness Doctrine was basically conceived by a bunch of Dems who said, "Wow, rightwing radio is a fucking cesspool, and liberals can't seem to put together a salable radio show. We need some legislatin'!"?

    Other way around. Removing the Fairness Doctrine allowed said rightwing radio to come into existance.

    HamHamJ on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    wishda wrote: »
    The Fairness Doctrine didn't mandate that a network had to make time for a rebuttal every time a controversial subject was aired. As it was practiced, the Fairness Doctrine ensured that any time a party, organization or person was the subject of a a negative report, the station had a duty to provide the target of the report with time for a rebuttal.

    That means that every story on biology would not need a counterpoint by the religious right. It would mean that a story directly attacking the religious right - or the Democrats - would require some time for the religious right to say their piece.

    The Republicans worked hard to get rid of the Fairness Doctrine, claiming it was a violation of the First Amendment. Then they turned around and created right wing talk radio. In an industry with the Fairness Doctrine, every episode of Rush Limbaugh would have to have a few minutes of uncensored rebuttal from whoever Rush attacked that day.

    No, what you'd have is a list of 'magic words' that you shouldn't say on air, and thus we're back where we started only with the crap and distortions being slightly more abstract.

    moniker on
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