TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2009
He should have never returned. Did you read Civil War: The Return? One of the worst issues of 2007. Hell, it's probably why Paul Jenkins went away from comics for a while.
Marvel had so little respect in how they brought the guy back they only gave him half an issue to come back in, and then in order to get out of it made him into a brainwashed skrull.
Pretty sure they had planned to make him a Skrull from the beginning there, champ, but I don't exactly have a source to quote.
I can't remember the issue, so I can't speak to whether or not it was good or bad. I can, however, recall enjoying earlier appearances of the character, and his SI Miniseries, and his appearances in Secret Invasion. I think his "Captain Marvel" persona fighting (and eventually beating) his "Skrull" persona was pretty interesting to read.
I've talked to people who dislike Secret Invasion except for the Captain Marvel bits in it. So you could say that he was brought back without much respect but Reed and Bendis fixed it in the long run.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Pretty sure they had planned to make him a Skrull from the beginning there, champ, but I don't exactly have a source to quote.
And they said Secret Invasion was years in the making. And we already had that debate a few months back here (you know, the whole turn into an exact copy with a magic washcloth and never explaining it thing).
You don't make something that bad and then say it was a plan all along. That's just showing disgust for the readers. Since it's still fresh in my mind, it's like Connor Hawke being Wolverine now in the DCU; you don't write something that bad and then say "oh, it was the plan all along for those issues to suck so these future issues can make sense."
It's not even Captain Marvel coming back. That stuff happens all the time (sadly). It was how they did it. The issue was widely panned, and then Paul Jenkins on his old Newsarama column tried to say "Hey, it's not my fault, Marvel said bring him back but you only have 11 pages to do so." And the Captain Marvel book took forever to come out (it was supposed to be an ongoing), so they tied it into Secret Invasion and got the character off the table.
I'm not saying they didn't salvage something out of the character with what they did in Secret Invasion, but I doubt he was made to be a skrull the whole time. Marvel (and DC) says a lot of things you shouldn't take their word on.
A)Believe what Marvel says - Hey, turns out, I'll still like the character, and still want him to come back to the Marvel Cosmic setting.
B)Believe what you say - Because you have more credibility, I guess? Hey, guess what, I'll still like the character, and still want him to come back to the Marvel Cosmic setting.
Though the outcomes are the same, I went with Option A nonetheless!
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2009
That's great.
You picked the wrong Captain Marvel to root for in the end, but still.
Joking aside, you should check out the Peter David/CrissCross Captain Marvel stuff. Very good cosmic stuff before it was given a new change with Annihilation. Puts the Reed mini to shame. If only Jemas didn't kill it off.
I would prefer that the original Captain Marvel stay dead, his death was a great piece of work,a nd I would hate to see it disrespected (of course, Marvel editorial seems to have little actual respect for its dead characters, but I digress).
As for Phyla, Personality wise, I liked her more as Quasar, but I do believe that she needed some powers that she can call all her own. As far as i'm conconcerned, Genis was the true inheritor of the Nega-bands (say what you will about his actions and suitability for the role) and Wendell has been quasar for so long I can't imagine anyone else in the role. Oblivion is an interesting source for her new powers, but I doubt she's going to stay dead, the presense of Peter and his team in the future, and, apparrently, warping around time, implying that they're going to be some changing of the past soon.
Well, Phyla was more interesting as Wendal Vaughn's successor rather than this whole "Queen of the Emos" thing she has going on right now. They just had to give her something to do once Wendal came back and she couldn't have those fancy bands of his.
Just give her the nega-bands and make her the new Captain Marvel. Or maybe Captain Universe.
Phyla went from being a second-rate Captain Marvel to being a absolute failure of a person with a glowing 90s eye. It's just all down hill for that girl.
Well, Phyla was more interesting as Wendal Vaughn's successor rather than this whole "Queen of the Emos" thing she has going on right now. They just had to give her something to do once Wendal came back and she couldn't have those fancy bands of his.
Just give her the nega-bands and make her the new Captain Marvel. Or maybe Captain Universe.
Phyla went from being a second-rate Captain Marvel to being a absolute failure of a person with a glowing 90s eye. It's just all down hill for that girl.
The sad part about phyla is that she had everything she needed to be a great character, it's just that none of the writers could decide what the hell they wanted her to be.
I would prefer that the original Captain Marvel stay dead, his death was a great piece of work,a nd I would hate to see it disrespected (of course, Marvel editorial seems to have little actual respect for its dead characters, but I digress).
This.
I can't imagine how anyone could read that story (death of captain marvel) and then think, "But you know... DC just brought Barry back." It's even more pointless than that.
Just because his death story was good doesn't mean I shouldn't want him to come back when every other comic book character does.
You tellin' me that if Ms. Marvel died in an epic way that was befitting of her status as a character, you'd want her to stay dead?
Yes.
I would rather she stay dead than risk being lessened after the fact. And I understand that there is just as much likelihood (okay, well... statistically it's not even close. But there is a possibility) that she could return and do something spectacular. But I wouldn't expect that, I wouldn't risk it. I'm pretty selfish about fiction that way, in the same was as the narrator in Camus' The Fall specifically speaks to this in reference to a dead lover--that he could still love her when she was "perfect" in his eyes, when everything was perfect and before there was a chance to have the mundane and unpleasant memories affect his perception.
Now, is it an immature desire? Sure. I'm not going to pretend that it isn't. And I'm not going to pretend that the desire goes away to think "If maybe we did X, then ..." And there's also the chance that the epic ending isn't as good as it could be, especially taken with time. I've dealt with that in my own writing, and I can say that as much as an idea drought as I've had for a while it excludes the ideas I've had to resurrect my favorite character--the one I bled for and drove myself a little nuts for. But the chance for success is such a tiny fraction of a percent that it's really not worth it.
As for Mar-Vell, it isn't worth it IMO. His death itself has almost if not more meaning than his life at this point. It reminds me of The Lion in Winter:
Geoffrey: You fool! As if it matters how a man falls down!
Richard: When the fall’s all that’s left, it matters a great deal.
Mar-Vell's fall matters a great deal as long as it remains untouched.
I think there is a problem with the fact that it was so long ago too (in real time). I mean, the Death of Captain Marvel was in 1982, so really how many current comic readers can be expected to have even read that yet alone all the stories that came before it? After his death I don't think he's really featured much in books at all... certainly in the last decade or so I doubt he's even been on the average readers radar at all.
I have read some of the Captain Marvel stuff, including the Life and Death of, and I loved it. But when I read the recent mini series, I couldn't help but think that it's been so long that it just felt wrong to bring him back under any circumstances.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2009
Especially when you had a good legacy hero come after that, which Genis/Rick Jones was.
It's not something I feel strongly enough about to vehemently tell you all that you're wrong and I'm right.
I like the character. I think it's a strong, versatile character and could still do well in a modern-setting. I mean, Mar-Vell's portion in Secret Invasion was probably my favorite part, and I think it would do well to reference it from that. From an in-story perspective, it's pretty cool that his desire to be a hero was strong enough to subvert the faulty Skrull programming and make Khn'nr do what was right. You've also got the story possibilities of Marvel enteracting with Phyla and Hulkling (the latter of which was touched upon a little bit I seem to remember, but it was just a one-time meeting.), and seeing how different the current cosmic landscape is from his perspective.
I'm not going to delude into saying it's likely, or my way is better than you way, but I still think his return could do well if it was handled well.
Well, technically, Noh-Varr is the current Captain Marvel on the Dark Avengers, but he hasn't really been a mainliner. I think Bendis said the annual is pretty focused around him, though.
I have read some of the Captain Marvel stuff, including the Life and Death of, and I loved it. But when I read the recent mini series, I couldn't help but think that it's been so long that it just felt wrong to bring him back under any circumstances.
I forgot to mention, I think my favorite moment in that mini-series was when Captain Marvel took out that robot after Tony Stark told him to stay low. I wish I could remember the exact wording of the dialogue as it led up to that scene, because I think it was pitch perfect.
And I forgot Reed wrote that. What happened to him? Why does he make Ms. Marvel make me so angry
Even though I've posted in this thread like twenty times in the last five minutes, I couldn't resist because I knew I had the moment I was referring to scanned in some where and I found it.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Morrison's not a big fan of Marvel right now, especially after they reversed everything he did for the X-Universe a month after he left.
Yeah, but Marvel's gonna have that mad Disney money soon.
I can dream .
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2009
Morrison was upset with DC/Warner Bros. over how the Matrix ripped off some of his Invisibles stuff without credit, and never went back to them until Didio took over. I expect Morrison would wait out until the same happens with Marvel.
Morrison was upset with DC/Warner Bros. over how the Matrix ripped off some of his Invisibles stuff without credit, and never went back to them until Didio took over. I expect Morrison would wait out until the same happens with Marvel.
Yeah, I've read the blogs about his issues with Marvel, but Morrison just strikes as the kind of guy that will work for anybody that gives him a big enough paycheck.
Especially when you had a good legacy hero come after that, which Genis/Rick Jones was.
Man through this whole discussion i was thinking I was the only one believed Genis/Rick were a great Captain Marvel. I miss Genis - Vell, even if Zemo fucked him over into eventually ending the universe.
Posts
Marvel had so little respect in how they brought the guy back they only gave him half an issue to come back in, and then in order to get out of it made him into a brainwashed skrull.
I can't remember the issue, so I can't speak to whether or not it was good or bad. I can, however, recall enjoying earlier appearances of the character, and his SI Miniseries, and his appearances in Secret Invasion. I think his "Captain Marvel" persona fighting (and eventually beating) his "Skrull" persona was pretty interesting to read.
And they said Secret Invasion was years in the making. And we already had that debate a few months back here (you know, the whole turn into an exact copy with a magic washcloth and never explaining it thing).
You don't make something that bad and then say it was a plan all along. That's just showing disgust for the readers. Since it's still fresh in my mind, it's like Connor Hawke being Wolverine now in the DCU; you don't write something that bad and then say "oh, it was the plan all along for those issues to suck so these future issues can make sense."
It's not even Captain Marvel coming back. That stuff happens all the time (sadly). It was how they did it. The issue was widely panned, and then Paul Jenkins on his old Newsarama column tried to say "Hey, it's not my fault, Marvel said bring him back but you only have 11 pages to do so." And the Captain Marvel book took forever to come out (it was supposed to be an ongoing), so they tied it into Secret Invasion and got the character off the table.
I'm not saying they didn't salvage something out of the character with what they did in Secret Invasion, but I doubt he was made to be a skrull the whole time. Marvel (and DC) says a lot of things you shouldn't take their word on.
A)Believe what Marvel says - Hey, turns out, I'll still like the character, and still want him to come back to the Marvel Cosmic setting.
B)Believe what you say - Because you have more credibility, I guess? Hey, guess what, I'll still like the character, and still want him to come back to the Marvel Cosmic setting.
Though the outcomes are the same, I went with Option A nonetheless!
You picked the wrong Captain Marvel to root for in the end, but still.
Joking aside, you should check out the Peter David/CrissCross Captain Marvel stuff. Very good cosmic stuff before it was given a new change with Annihilation. Puts the Reed mini to shame. If only Jemas didn't kill it off.
As for Phyla, Personality wise, I liked her more as Quasar, but I do believe that she needed some powers that she can call all her own. As far as i'm conconcerned, Genis was the true inheritor of the Nega-bands (say what you will about his actions and suitability for the role) and Wendell has been quasar for so long I can't imagine anyone else in the role. Oblivion is an interesting source for her new powers, but I doubt she's going to stay dead, the presense of Peter and his team in the future, and, apparrently, warping around time, implying that they're going to be some changing of the past soon.
Phyla went from being a second-rate Captain Marvel to being a absolute failure of a person with a glowing 90s eye. It's just all down hill for that girl.
The sad part about phyla is that she had everything she needed to be a great character, it's just that none of the writers could decide what the hell they wanted her to be.
This.
I can't imagine how anyone could read that story (death of captain marvel) and then think, "But you know... DC just brought Barry back." It's even more pointless than that.
You tellin' me that if Ms. Marvel died in an epic way that was befitting of her status as a character, you'd want her to stay dead?
:P
Yes.
I would rather she stay dead than risk being lessened after the fact. And I understand that there is just as much likelihood (okay, well... statistically it's not even close. But there is a possibility) that she could return and do something spectacular. But I wouldn't expect that, I wouldn't risk it. I'm pretty selfish about fiction that way, in the same was as the narrator in Camus' The Fall specifically speaks to this in reference to a dead lover--that he could still love her when she was "perfect" in his eyes, when everything was perfect and before there was a chance to have the mundane and unpleasant memories affect his perception.
Now, is it an immature desire? Sure. I'm not going to pretend that it isn't. And I'm not going to pretend that the desire goes away to think "If maybe we did X, then ..." And there's also the chance that the epic ending isn't as good as it could be, especially taken with time. I've dealt with that in my own writing, and I can say that as much as an idea drought as I've had for a while it excludes the ideas I've had to resurrect my favorite character--the one I bled for and drove myself a little nuts for. But the chance for success is such a tiny fraction of a percent that it's really not worth it.
As for Mar-Vell, it isn't worth it IMO. His death itself has almost if not more meaning than his life at this point. It reminds me of The Lion in Winter: Mar-Vell's fall matters a great deal as long as it remains untouched.
I have read some of the Captain Marvel stuff, including the Life and Death of, and I loved it. But when I read the recent mini series, I couldn't help but think that it's been so long that it just felt wrong to bring him back under any circumstances.
I like the character. I think it's a strong, versatile character and could still do well in a modern-setting. I mean, Mar-Vell's portion in Secret Invasion was probably my favorite part, and I think it would do well to reference it from that. From an in-story perspective, it's pretty cool that his desire to be a hero was strong enough to subvert the faulty Skrull programming and make Khn'nr do what was right. You've also got the story possibilities of Marvel enteracting with Phyla and Hulkling (the latter of which was touched upon a little bit I seem to remember, but it was just a one-time meeting.), and seeing how different the current cosmic landscape is from his perspective.
I'm not going to delude into saying it's likely, or my way is better than you way, but I still think his return could do well if it was handled well.
it's currently off the table and... come on, Marvel will want that name in play.
or maybe they took it off the table because it conflicts with the reintroduction of Marvelman somehow?
Isn't Noh Var calling himself Captain Marvel now?
maybe get him away from bendis and let him do something cosmic and i'll care
Just let Morrison write him again. That Marvel Boy series was so good.
I forgot to mention, I think my favorite moment in that mini-series was when Captain Marvel took out that robot after Tony Stark told him to stay low. I wish I could remember the exact wording of the dialogue as it led up to that scene, because I think it was pitch perfect.
And I forgot Reed wrote that. What happened to him? Why does he make Ms. Marvel make me so angry
Yeah, but Marvel's gonna have that mad Disney money soon.
I can dream
Yeah, I've read the blogs about his issues with Marvel, but Morrison just strikes as the kind of guy that will work for anybody that gives him a big enough paycheck.
Man through this whole discussion i was thinking I was the only one believed Genis/Rick were a great Captain Marvel. I miss Genis - Vell, even if Zemo fucked him over into eventually ending the universe.