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Every voter should receive a receipt

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    GRMikeGRMike The Last Best Hope for Humanity The God Pod Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Butters wrote: »
    Stale wrote: »
    the elctoral voters are not held accountable to vote either way

    and yes, they have, do, and will, vote against the popular vote

    It's comparing apples to oranges to some extent.

    How would have the popular vote have turned out in 2000 if the candidates had been forced to run a national campaign for the popular vote instead of state-by-state vote? It's almost impossible to say, because non-competitive states generally have relatively low turnout.

    So, it's kind of inaccurate to place so much value in the "popular" vote in an election that was run on the premise of the electoral college.

    I will say that the election in 2000 was stolen, but only because Gore actually won florida under a full statewide recount

    You mean the illegal recount. By the legal recount he lost.

    Hence the reasoning for my initial question. In an election has a states electoral vote ever differed from the states popular vote? I have been researching this last hour and I can't find any Michael Dukakis example.... or any other example for that matter.

    So mistrust of the Electoral College is a retarded reason to think it is rigged. Now discrepancies with the national popular vote would be.

    GRMike on
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    ShimShamShimSham Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Candidates should be decided by Plinko and Plinko alone.

    ShimSham on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Obama and McCain should play Cluedo and whomever wins becomes President.

    The_Scarab on
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    AuburnTigerAuburnTiger Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    The problem isn't confined to the voting machines in West Virginia. That is simply one example of the problem of not knowing if your vote was counted, or if it was counted incorrectly.

    My purpose in starting this tread, as I wrote earlier, is that every time I vote I always leave wondering if my vote was counted or counted correctly, yet I have no way of knowing it. There HAS to be a way. I think my earlier example was pretty relevant. If all the millions of banking transactions every day are easily verified, why can't votes be?

    The answer is probably the infrastructure isn't in place, and each state has their own way of doing things. I would like to see the entire system overhauled, down to the way voters are registered and their records are kept. Maybe you saw that thousands of voters in Georgia were purged for the wrong reasons? Or that there have been examples of vote flipping WV, PA, and TX.

    My suggestion that we be given verifiable receipts is just one suggestion, but I think it would be a good start. I don't HAVE all the solutions, but I can clearly see many problems.

    AuburnTiger on
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    MeissnerdMeissnerd Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    *street fighter 2

    Meissnerd on
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    GRMikeGRMike The Last Best Hope for Humanity The God Pod Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    *Tetris

    GRMike on
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    ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    GRMike wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Stale wrote: »
    the elctoral voters are not held accountable to vote either way

    and yes, they have, do, and will, vote against the popular vote

    It's comparing apples to oranges to some extent.

    How would have the popular vote have turned out in 2000 if the candidates had been forced to run a national campaign for the popular vote instead of state-by-state vote? It's almost impossible to say, because non-competitive states generally have relatively low turnout.

    So, it's kind of inaccurate to place so much value in the "popular" vote in an election that was run on the premise of the electoral college.

    I will say that the election in 2000 was stolen, but only because Gore actually won florida under a full statewide recount

    You mean the illegal recount. By the legal recount he lost.

    Hence the reasoning for my initial question. In an election has a states electoral vote ever differed from the states popular vote? I have been researching this last hour and I can't find any Michael Dukakis example.... or any other example for that matter.

    So mistrust of the Electoral College is a retarded reason to think it is rigged. Now discrepancies with the national popular vote would be.

    I am actually surprised at BN for pulling the stolen election shit. I thought everyone of reasonable intelligence even begrudgingly understood that the Supreme Court made the right decision in 2000.

    Butters on
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    DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    The problem isn't confined to the voting machines in West Virginia. That is simply one example of the problem of not knowing if your vote was counted, or if it was counted incorrectly.

    My purpose in starting this tread, as I wrote earlier, is that every time I vote I always leave wondering if my vote was counted or counted correctly, yet I have no way of knowing it. There HAS to be a way. I think my earlier example was pretty relevant. If all the millions of banking transactions every day are easily verified, why can't votes be?

    The answer is probably the infrastructure isn't in place, and each state has their own way of doing things. I would like to see the entire system overhauled, down to the way voters are registered and their records are kept. Maybe you saw that thousands of voters in Georgia were purged for the wrong reasons? Or that there have been examples of vote flipping WV, PA, and TX.

    My suggestion that we be given verifiable receipts is just one suggestion, but I think it would be a good start. I don't HAVE all the solutions, but I can clearly see many problems.
    that was NOT an example of a vote being counted incorrectly or not knowing if a count was voted because no one was actually voting

    he was simply testing the machine and found it out of calibration, then found it was still out of calibration after trying to recalibrate it
    stop pretending that this is something bigger than it actually is

    and no, there does not have to be a way to know
    if there is Einstein, share it with us
    otherwise stop making ignorant claims you cannot support

    Druhim on
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    mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    please, no more mega quotes trees in this thread. Simple cut out all but the last thing you're quoting

    mastman on
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    FalloutFallout GIRL'S DAY WAS PRETTY GOOD WHILE THEY LASTEDRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    A paper receipt with a number that can later be verified to make sure that his or her vote was counted, and not lost or misread.

    I've wondered since 2000 why we can't do this. If our entire banking system is basically electronic, held by computers all across the world, why can't we do the same with voting? Why do we continue to rely on archaic voting practices prone to error and manipulation?

    This article brought the issue to mind again this morning:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/us/politics/29anxiety.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

    actually i think this is a really good idea

    :^:

    Fallout on
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    MeissnerdMeissnerd Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    mastman wrote: »
    please, no more mega quotes trees in this thread. Simple cut out all but the last thing you're quoting

    yeah whatever hitler

    Meissnerd on
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    AuburnTigerAuburnTiger Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    GRMike wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Stale wrote: »
    the elctoral voters are not held accountable to vote either way

    and yes, they have, do, and will, vote against the popular vote

    It's comparing apples to oranges to some extent.

    How would have the popular vote have turned out in 2000 if the candidates had been forced to run a national campaign for the popular vote instead of state-by-state vote? It's almost impossible to say, because non-competitive states generally have relatively low turnout.

    So, it's kind of inaccurate to place so much value in the "popular" vote in an election that was run on the premise of the electoral college.

    I will say that the election in 2000 was stolen, but only because Gore actually won florida under a full statewide recount

    You mean the illegal recount. By the legal recount he lost.

    Hence the reasoning for my initial question. In an election has a states electoral vote ever differed from the states popular vote? I have been researching this last hour and I can't find any Michael Dukakis example.... or any other example for that matter.

    So mistrust of the Electoral College is a retarded reason to think it is rigged. Now discrepancies with the national popular vote would be.

    Here you go:

    http://www.fairvote.org/e_college/faithless.htm

    That has a list of every electoral voter who voted against the person he was selected for.

    AuburnTiger on
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    DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    that's a pretty slim list of faithless electors

    Druhim on
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    FalloutFallout GIRL'S DAY WAS PRETTY GOOD WHILE THEY LASTEDRegistered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Stale wrote: »
    pssssssst...... you wanna know a secret?


    Voting doesn't matter, all of this shit is bought and paid for long before you waddle your ass into a booth. Give it up.

    :roll:

    Fallout on
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    AuburnTigerAuburnTiger Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Druhim wrote: »

    he was simply testing the machine and found it out of calibration, then found it was still out of calibration after trying to recalibrate it
    stop pretending that this is something bigger than it actually is

    and no, there does not have to be a way to know
    if there is Einstein, share it with us
    otherwise stop making ignorant claims you cannot support

    Why do you think a way to know doesn't exist? Or are you arguing that we really shouldn't care whether our vote is counted? That we should just trust those who count them?

    AuburnTiger on
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    Wrench N RocketsWrench N Rockets Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    18 times in 232 years, not a bad record.

    Wrench N Rockets on
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    AuburnTigerAuburnTiger Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    GRMike, here's the example I was thinking of:

    Margaret Leach, a nurse from Huntington, WV, was pledged to the Democratic Party. During the Electoral College process, Leach learned that members of the Electoral College were not required to vote for the candidates they were pledged to.
    Upon learning this, she decided to draw more attention to the situation by switching her votes for President and Vice President. She cast her Presidential vote for Lloyd Bentsen, the Democratic Vice Presidential candidate, and cast her Vice Presidential vote for Michael Dukakis, the Democratic Presidential candidate.
    Leach tried to convince other Electors to join her, but hers remained the only unexpected vote.

    AuburnTiger on
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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Druhim wrote: »

    he was simply testing the machine and found it out of calibration, then found it was still out of calibration after trying to recalibrate it
    stop pretending that this is something bigger than it actually is

    and no, there does not have to be a way to know
    if there is Einstein, share it with us
    otherwise stop making ignorant claims you cannot support

    Why do you think a way to know doesn't exist? Or are you arguing that we really shouldn't care whether our vote is counted? That we should just trust those who count them?

    This is verging into tinfoil conspiracy theorist territory here. I hope you have any sort of substantial support for these propositions.

    The_Scarab on
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    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited October 2008
    Butters wrote: »
    GRMike wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Stale wrote: »
    the elctoral voters are not held accountable to vote either way

    and yes, they have, do, and will, vote against the popular vote

    It's comparing apples to oranges to some extent.

    How would have the popular vote have turned out in 2000 if the candidates had been forced to run a national campaign for the popular vote instead of state-by-state vote? It's almost impossible to say, because non-competitive states generally have relatively low turnout.

    So, it's kind of inaccurate to place so much value in the "popular" vote in an election that was run on the premise of the electoral college.

    I will say that the election in 2000 was stolen, but only because Gore actually won florida under a full statewide recount

    You mean the illegal recount. By the legal recount he lost.

    Hence the reasoning for my initial question. In an election has a states electoral vote ever differed from the states popular vote? I have been researching this last hour and I can't find any Michael Dukakis example.... or any other example for that matter.

    So mistrust of the Electoral College is a retarded reason to think it is rigged. Now discrepancies with the national popular vote would be.

    I am actually surprised at BN for pulling the stolen election shit. I thought everyone of reasonable intelligence even begrudgingly understood that the Supreme Court made the right decision in 2000.

    As a matter of principle, I think the state should have gone to the dude who won more votes there

    call me crazy

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
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    DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    Druhim wrote: »

    he was simply testing the machine and found it out of calibration, then found it was still out of calibration after trying to recalibrate it
    stop pretending that this is something bigger than it actually is

    and no, there does not have to be a way to know
    if there is Einstein, share it with us
    otherwise stop making ignorant claims you cannot support

    Why do you think a way to know doesn't exist? Or are you arguing that we really shouldn't care whether our vote is counted? That we should just trust those who count them?
    because I'm not as naive as you

    any system for tracking such information is inherently flawed
    no matter how you design such a system, the possibility exists for the information to be tampered with, for mistakes to made, for equipment to malfunction (just like in the video you posted)
    the more complex you make a system, you actually increase the likelihood of an error somewhere

    this is why I keep calling you naive
    because you insist that there must be a way to absolutely know simply because you feel it's necessary for it to be so
    this is completely at odds with what we know of the physical world

    Druhim on
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    ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Is this just misplaced rage at yet another disappointing Tigers season?

    Butters on
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    ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    As a matter of principle, I think the state should have gone to the dude who won more votes there regardless of legality so long as he is a democrat

    call me crazy

    That's what you really mean isn't it?

    Butters on
    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
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    AuburnTigerAuburnTiger Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    I understand that the system is flawed. And I understand that it will always be prone to manipulation.

    But that doesn't mean I can't try and see that it's LESS prone to manipulation, and that it's fairer and more transparent.

    Call me naive. I like to think of myself as an idealist.

    AuburnTiger on
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    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited October 2008
    Butters wrote: »
    As a matter of principle, I think the state should have gone to the dude who won more votes there regardless of legality so long as he is a democrat

    call me crazy

    That's what you really mean isn't it?

    If you want to play that game we can go into katherine harris illegally purging 10,000 african american voters from the rolls before the election

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
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    ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Butters wrote: »
    As a matter of principle, I think the state should have gone to the dude who won more votes there regardless of legality so long as he is a democrat

    call me crazy

    That's what you really mean isn't it?

    If you want to play that game we can go into katherine harris illegally purging 10,000 african american voters from the rolls before the election

    You'll have to prove that actually happened first. The black dude for the justice department that investigated the claim says you're full of shit.

    Butters on
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    GRMikeGRMike The Last Best Hope for Humanity The God Pod Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Butters wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    As a matter of principle, I think the state should have gone to the dude who won more votes there regardless of legality so long as he is a democrat

    call me crazy

    That's what you really mean isn't it?

    If you want to play that game we can go into katherine harris illegally purging 10,000 african american voters from the rolls before the election

    You'll have to prove that actually happened first. The black dude for the justice department that investigated the claim says you're full of shit.

    Um... they made a movie about it! :D

    GRMike on
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    DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    I understand that the system is flawed. And I understand that it will always be prone to manipulation.

    But that doesn't mean I can't try and see that it's LESS prone to manipulation, and that it's fairer and more transparent.

    Call me naive. I like to think of myself as an idealist.
    wait wait wait

    now you're backpedaling

    before you were stating in no uncertain terms that you should be able to KNOW that your vote counted

    now you're retreating to just saying you're looking to make it fairer and more transparent
    those positions are pretty substantially different

    so in theory, I'm in agreement that a system that's less prone to manipulation is better

    however I still maintain that the more complicated you make a system, you actually increase the opportunity for fraud, human error, or mechanical malfunction

    and that video still doesn't say anything meaningful about the election process beyond the obvious that stuff malfunctions

    Druhim on
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    misbehavinmisbehavin Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Why is it so hard to have a digital voting system?

    You have a database:

    table: votes
    date_voted (datetime)
    SSID (bigint(30))
    campaign_id (int(10))
    nominee_id (int(10))

    table: campaigns
    id (int(10))
    name (varchar(20))

    table: nominees
    id (int(10))
    name (varchar(20))

    table: nominees2campaigns
    nominee_id (int(10))
    campaign_id (int(10))

    nominees has people (Obama, McCain, etc.)
    campaigns has types (presidency, senate, etc.)
    nominees2campaigns ties them together
    votes registers the votes

    Voila! DONE!

    Goddamn it, Diebold, what the fuck are you doing!

    misbehavin on
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    Wrench N RocketsWrench N Rockets Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Ok, here's how we are going to do this.

    When you go to vote, you will travel to a pre-chosen mountain.

    Probably in Utah, because what else good is it for

    Once there, you will be issued one (1) new, wrapped chisel

    Your chisel will be numbered and you number will be recored along with your picture

    You will then chisel your number into a side of the mountain corresponding to your chosen candidate

    Climbing gear will be required if your side fills up on the bottom

    After voting, you will be required to stay on the mountain to very your vote for up to one (1) year

    I can find no flaws in my plan

    Wrench N Rockets on
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    the wookthe wook Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Ok, here's how we are going to do this.

    When you go to vote, you will travel to a pre-chosen mountain.

    Probably in Utah, because what else good is it for

    Once there, you will be issued one (1) new, wrapped chisel

    Your chisel will be numbered and you number will be recored along with your picture

    You will then chisel your number into a side of the mountain corresponding to your chosen candidate

    Climbing gear will be required if your side fills up on the bottom

    After voting, you will be required to stay on the mountain to very your vote for up to one (1) year

    I can find no flaws in my plan

    up to 1 year? that is like 1800 shits for me alone

    the wook on
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    DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    a mountain of wook shit

    Druhim on
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    Wrench N RocketsWrench N Rockets Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Limited restroom spaces will be available

    Try to relieve yourself before you leave to vote

    Wrench N Rockets on
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    MeissnerdMeissnerd Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Druhim wrote: »
    a mountain of wook shit

    that's a big pile of shit

    Meissnerd on
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    the wookthe wook Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Druhim wrote: »
    a mountain of wook shit

    that you can carve your number into if the other mountain fills up

    the wook on
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    DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    I just think they should give out cookies after you vote
    then you feel like you actually accomplished something

    Druhim on
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    the wookthe wook Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Druhim wrote: »
    I just think they should give out cookies after you vote
    then you feel like you actually accomplished something

    but we already get cookies after we donate blood

    look, if we get cookies after we do everything than the country is only going to get fatter than it already is

    the wook on
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    AuburnTigerAuburnTiger Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Druhim wrote: »
    I understand that the system is flawed. And I understand that it will always be prone to manipulation.

    But that doesn't mean I can't try and see that it's LESS prone to manipulation, and that it's fairer and more transparent.

    Call me naive. I like to think of myself as an idealist.
    wait wait wait

    now you're backpedaling

    before you were stating in no uncertain terms that you should be able to KNOW that your vote counted

    now you're retreating to just saying you're looking to make it fairer and more transparent
    those positions are pretty substantially different

    so in theory, I'm in agreement that a system that's less prone to manipulation is better

    however I still maintain that the more complicated you make a system, you actually increase the opportunity for fraud, human error, or mechanical malfunction

    and that video still doesn't say anything meaningful about the election process beyond the obvious that stuff malfunctions

    No, I'm still saying that I believe I should absolutely be able to see that my vote was counted. I think that's my right. Others may disagree.

    But I understand the difficulty in doing that. But if I'm able to get a receipt for a bank deposit, and go online and verify that it's there, why can't we do that with my vote? ANY step to make things fairer and more transparent is a good thing, and I think a receipt would do so.

    But if you're arguing that I can never REALLY KNOW, without a single doubt, then you're right. Even if I see my money online, how do I REALLY know it's there? :)

    AuburnTiger on
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    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited October 2008
    Druhim wrote: »
    a mountain of wook shit

    oh man

    now I totally have a desire to build a basement room and just poop into it until it fills up

    you would feel like you've accomplished so much

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
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    DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2008
    the wook wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    I just think they should give out cookies after you vote
    then you feel like you actually accomplished something

    but we already get cookies after we donate blood

    look, if we get cookies after we do everything than the country is only going to get fatter than it already is
    what's wrong with that?
    after your wife's ass gets too big you just take on a foreign mistress who's still got a rockin' bod

    Druhim on
    belruelotterav-1.jpg
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    the wookthe wook Registered User regular
    edited October 2008
    Druhim wrote: »
    the wook wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    I just think they should give out cookies after you vote
    then you feel like you actually accomplished something

    but we already get cookies after we donate blood

    look, if we get cookies after we do everything than the country is only going to get fatter than it already is
    what's wrong with that?
    after your wife's ass gets too big you just take on a foreign mistress who's still got a rockin' bod

    look, the point i'm making is give cookies to all the guys but me. then i'll get laid a whole lot more because everybody else will be fatties

    the wook on
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