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Legend of the Seeker: Look upon me book continuity, and despair.

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    setrajonassetrajonas Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    setrajonas wrote: »
    Um, all the quotes I posted were about killing civilians, not soldiers.
    Yes, I realize that. Civilians who continually supply and support the legitimacy of the mass murder of the New World. That is not 'indiscriminate murder on moral grounds'.

    That would be:

    Richard: I believe in free enterprise.
    Old World dude: I don't support the murder of innocent New World folk, I won't support this marauding, pillaging army of savages that is formed in the Old World, supplied by the Old World, cheered on by the Old World, etc.- however I believe in communism.
    Richard: OFF WITH YOUR HEAD, COMMIE FUCK.
    Really? You really want to go there?

    Do I even need to draw the parallels with the Palestinians? Or are we just going to accept that maybe that's the wrong track to go down?

    Shhh, you'll bother him with your hatred of moral clarity.

    setrajonas on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2008
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    setrajonas wrote: »
    Um, all the quotes I posted were about killing civilians, not soldiers.
    Yes, I realize that. Civilians who continually supply and support the legitimacy of the mass murder of the New World. That is not 'indiscriminate murder on moral grounds'.

    That would be:

    Richard: I believe in free enterprise.
    Old World dude: I don't support the murder of innocent New World folk, I won't support this marauding, pillaging army of savages that is formed in the Old World, supplied by the Old World, cheered on by the Old World, etc.- however I believe in communism.
    Richard: OFF WITH YOUR HEAD, COMMIE FUCK.
    Really? You really want to go there?

    Do I even need to draw the parallels with the Palestinians? Or are we just going to accept that maybe that's the wrong track to go down?

    Go ahead and draw the parallel. I've done more to help the Palestinian community than most Palestinian leaders and I'm not ashamed of anything I've done or said w.r.t. Israel.

    I'll get back to the rest of ya'll when I'm at a real keyboard.

    Organichu on
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    Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    . . . I just wanted to talk about the show based off of a book series that I loved. I asked no one to like the books as much as me, I didn't want to get sucked into having to defend them (to late for that though eh?). I just don't think that the show is doing any justice to this book that was wildly popular to many people.

    Back on topic, I did see the latest episode, and it continues its mass deviation from the books. I've read each book at least twice (I know, I know: "how could you read that shiiiiiiiiiiit") and I fear that they're just gonna run straight off the reservation, returning to normal book continuity only when Richard has to kill Darken Rahl.

    Witch_Hunter_84 on
    If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2008
    finally saw some of it. what the fuck, man.

    Organichu on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Organichu are you Terry Goodkind

    Balefuego on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2008
    I do not have a greasy ponytail like him

    Organichu on
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    I do not have a greasy ponytail like him

    his ponytail looks dry and brittle, like the foundations of his soul, to me.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Page- wrote: »
    If you want good fantasy then ASOIAF is a great place to start. But really, any fantasy series is better than the Sword of Truth books.
    I dunno... Shannara is pretty dreadful.
    Rolo wrote: »
    Both swords also tell the Truth.
    The Gentelman from the Colbert Nation moves to rename Goodkind's Sword of Truth to the Sword of Truthiness.
    Daxon wrote: »
    So I watched the newest episode of this show.. I'm pretty sure there never was a mapmaker that made maps that tracked the seeker. You know.. if it continues down this path then the show could turn out alright and a lot more like Xena/Hercules really... Which would be pretty damn cool.
    The show is meant to target the Xena/Hercules "demographic" and is made by the people who did Xena/Hercules, is filmed in New Zealand, and has a lot of Kiwi actors/actresses, so I'm pretty sure that is where it's going. All it needs is a spinoff with a big lesbian confessor and a little bi-curious farm girl and then it will be all wrapped up. It's too bad Kevin Smith passed... he'd have made a cool Darken Rahl.

    GungHo on
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    captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    The thing about other bad fantasy is that most of it is just sort of passively bad. Bland and unoriginal, derivative. It's at least not offensive. Goodkind's is sort of actively bad. Preachy and filled with rape-torture.

    captaink on
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    skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2008
    When people were talking about the prostitute teleportation, I assumed they were talking about the pretty much ridiculously stupid part at the end of the second book when the shade of the girl Richard killed in the first book, who sacrificed her soul to keep the equivalent of the devil in their world from eating Richard's soul, comes to both Kahlan and Richard and serves as a kind of magic holiday suite for them to have sex in despite being seperated by X hundred miles.

    How did she escape the Keeper (aka the Devil)? She was too good for him. Every part of the situation was so retarded and nonsensical I couldn't believe anyone thought it was good plotting.



    And man, did someone in this thread actually compare Tolkein's worldbuilding to Goodkind's? Goodkind is like 3 steps below Lucas at making an internally consistent world. I mean, honestly, shit like the boxes or orden or whatever don't even make logical sense. They're just shitty allegory at best.

    skyknyt on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2008
    Yeah, just about all of the explanations for magic and the 'underworld' were dumb.

    Organichu on
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    JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Shadowen wrote: »
    I'm not so sure about the Wheel of Time point, though. There were a lot of useless plot points in that series. If you want to keep the plot points as they were told intact, fine, but if you excise all the subplots that were pure padding, for example, not just redundant phrases which I swear Jordan had macroed on his Word Processor, and go with the core story of the three Ta'veren trying to save the world, you might be able to compress it into a fast-paced trilogy.

    Eh, we joke a lot, but a fair bit does happen, particularly in the early books. Very little of the first novel would be cut both because most of it is essential plot and he hadn't fallen into the sniff/smooth skirts/braid tug/etc quite as badly. If we're talking paperbacks, it and The Great Hunt would probably be over 1000 pages together. Three, four, and five and maybe six could make another novel of comprable size, with book four being the bulk of it. Not sure if six would fit in its entirety. 7, 8, and 10 would be like...10 chapters apiece if that, but nine actually covers some ground, so combine them with what's left of six and you've got your third novel without touching the last two books.

    You could squeeze them into three novels, maybe (depends on whether book 12 is like...a 2000 page monstrosity), but you'd be taking a LOT of content out with the fat.

    I think WoT could have made a good five novel series ala the Prydain Chronicles.

    Jragghen on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2008
    Maybe I like Goodkind because he's the only (English language) fantasy I've ever read, aside from Tolkien (which I hated).

    Organichu on
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    Maybe I like Goodkind because he's the only (English language) fantasy I've ever read, aside from Tolkien (which I hated).
    Goodkind is pretty awful. And I say that having read the entire Sword of Truth series. Go pick up George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. It's fucking fantastic.

    Thanatos on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Yeah, if Jordan hadn't been so obsessed with weird gender politics, the books would have had a much better pace.

    Fencingsax on
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    skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2008
    Also, if you don't want to commit to something as giant as GRRM (or alternately, don't want to give up torture and rape) Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is pretty much amazing literature.

    Hell Tycho even mentioned it in a newspost. That's like an official endorsement around here!

    skyknyt on
    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
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    JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    Maybe I like Goodkind because he's the only (English language) fantasy I've ever read, aside from Tolkien (which I hated).

    People I'd say are worth a glance (posit: I'm a fantasy junkie, so I tend to like anything which manages to tell a decent story), in no particular order:
    •C.S. Lewis, provided the blatant religious allegory doesn't bother you
    •George R. R. Martin
    •Steven Erikson
    •Tad Williams
    •R. Scott Bakker
    •Fred Saberhagen
    •Robin Hobb
    •Kate Elliott
    •David Farland

    There's lots of others, but I'm not at home staring at my bookshelf. At the very least, I'd place all of those above Goodkind.

    Edit:
    •Lloyd Alexander - I even mentioned the damn Prydain Chronicles on this page. *facepalm*

    Jragghen on
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    muninnmuninn Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Maybe I like Goodkind because he's the only (English language) fantasy I've ever read, aside from Tolkien (which I hated).

    •Robin Hobb

    His assasin books are the definition of "emo". Its all about the main character bellyaching about his sucky life, and how miserable he is. Basicaly few thousand pages of "bitch, bitch, bitch".

    muninn on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2008
    Thanatos this had better not be like the time that you said using Icey Hot makes it feel "real authentic, like with a lady". If this Song of Fire & Ice thing doesn't work out, I'll never trust you again. :x

    Organichu on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    muninn wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Maybe I like Goodkind because he's the only (English language) fantasy I've ever read, aside from Tolkien (which I hated).

    •Robin Hobb

    His assasin books are the definition of "emo". Its all about the main character bellyaching about his sucky life, and how miserable he is. Basicaly few thousand pages of "bitch, bitch, bitch".

    yeah but his life is fucking terrible though.

    I mean jesus christ those books are so fucking depressing.

    Balefuego on
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    LuqLuq Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    Thanatos this had better not be like the time that you said using Icey Hot makes it feel "real authentic, like with a lady". If this Song of Fire & Ice thing doesn't work out, I'll never trust you again. :x

    No he's telling the truth. Here's some real life SAT shit to clarify for you.

    Sword of Truth : CW :: A Song of Ice and Fire : HBO

    Luq on
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    JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    muninn wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Maybe I like Goodkind because he's the only (English language) fantasy I've ever read, aside from Tolkien (which I hated).

    •Robin Hobb

    His assasin books are the definition of "emo". Its all about the main character bellyaching about his sucky life, and how miserable he is. Basicaly few thousand pages of "bitch, bitch, bitch".

    Her, and it was more for Liveship Traders than for the Farseer Trilogy (which itself was better than Tawny Man). That being said, Fitz was dealt the king of all shit sandwiches. Only character I can think of who got it worse was Alain in Crown of Stars.

    Who, in succession (spoilers):
    •Is a bastard son to a fisherman who's promised to the church
    •Is "blessed" by what amounts to the Goddess of War by having the monestary he was going to go to burned down and the monks murdered, so he gets sent to their liege-lord
    •Can somehow control the cursed hounds that are subservient to the local Count, so everyone thinks he is cursed and is ostrasized. Also, finds out that he's incapable of killing people.
    •Saves the King and his entorage, gets rewarded by having the Count claim him as a legitimate heir and the hand of the crazy chick he lusted after, but is too much of a nice guy to rape her since she's not willing
    •Has to watch as the Count is slowly turned to stone from a curse and dies
    •Is stripped of his rank and title by a claim from his now-Uncle that he had spelled the Count into believing he was the heir, and that the marriage wasn't official since he didn't consummate it
    •Is put into the King's footsoldiers (despite not being able to kill anyone), finally kills someone, then dies
    •Has his soul ripped on the way to the afterlife, at which point it's trapped by (what amounts to) a witch a few thousand years in the past and is given to another witch who everyone knows is going to die while destroying the world but that he doesn't because he can't speak the language of the time
    •Has to watch said world-destruction and death of his now-wife
    •Is sent back to current days by first witch, where he's captured by soldiers loyal to his former Uncle
    •Loses his memory due to a severe blow to the head, is sold into slavery to work in mines
    •Is seen by his former wife, who orders his execution, and they dump him into the pits of the mines and is left for dead

    There's some other stuff I'm forgetting (and things do mildly improve for him toward the end), but yeah. Alain was basically a whipping boy that Elliott took out all of her aggression on through the course of the series.

    Jragghen on
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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited November 2008
    muninn wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Maybe I like Goodkind because he's the only (English language) fantasy I've ever read, aside from Tolkien (which I hated).

    •Robin Hobb

    His assasin books are the definition of "emo". Its all about the main character bellyaching about his sucky life, and how miserable he is. Basicaly few thousand pages of "bitch, bitch, bitch".

    Her books.

    Echo on
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    CantideCantide Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    skyknyt wrote: »
    Also, if you don't want to commit to something as giant as GRRM (or alternately, don't want to give up torture and rape) Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun is pretty much amazing literature.

    Hell Tycho even mentioned it in a newspost. That's like an official endorsement around here!

    I love GRRM, but reading ASoIaF definitely doesn't mean giving up torture and rape.
    GungHo wrote:
    It's too bad Kevin Smith passed... he'd have made a cool Darken Rahl.

    I was really sad when I found out he'd died. He was excellent at playing cheesy over-the-top evil villains.

    Cantide on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    there's terrible shit that happens in the asoiaf books but it's not sensationalized or played for shock value like it is in the Goodkind books.

    Balefuego on
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    JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    there's terrible shit that happens in the asoiaf books but it's not sensationalized or played for shock value like it is in the Goodkind books.

    Yeah. Dany's deflowering wasn't sensationalized and descriptions of Cersei's swamp wasn't incredibly low-brow and unnecessary.

    Let's not kid ourselves. ASoIaF has some of the same shit that Goodkind does, just written a lot better. There's just more to the series than that, unlike its prevalence in SoT. Also, it's like....the anti-moral clarity, which is why it appeals to so many around here :P

    Jragghen on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I didnt think the dany scene was that bad, and while that cersei scene you mention was a bit much I found it hilarious.

    Balefuego on
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    the moral anti-clarity is what makes SOIAF good. No one is completely good or evil, and even if they are, you can't know who's which because you are not privy to that objective information (if it exists).

    i personally don't mind the horrible shit that happens in SOT just because it's horrible shit; it's because Goodkind has no self control and he is writing a series that is entirely masturbatory. He's indulging his own fantasies when he writes Richard, when he writes action scenes, when he writes love scenes, when he writes everything - I find it difficult to conclude he's not indulging his fantasies when he writes detailed rape scenes, demon rape scenes, and such like.

    Martin's horrible events are convincing and horrify because they are, mostly, possible. They reinforce the greyness of morality. Goodkind's horrible events are absurd and unnecessary and exist only to reinforce his stupid fucking black and white morality.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    yes all of that too.

    Plus I think the Dany/Drogo scene being presented the way it is makes later events in that storyline seem a bit more believable.

    Of course I fucking hate Dany so there's that to consider.

    Balefuego on
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    muninnmuninn Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Echo wrote: »
    muninn wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Maybe I like Goodkind because he's the only (English language) fantasy I've ever read, aside from Tolkien (which I hated).

    •Robin Hobb

    His assasin books are the definition of "emo". Its all about the main character bellyaching about his sucky life, and how miserable he is. Basicaly few thousand pages of "bitch, bitch, bitch".

    Her books.

    My bad. For whatever reason I associate Robin with a male name...
    I blame Batman.

    Anyways, yeah those books were depressing, but the protagonist's passiveness and penchant for self-pity became really overbearing at certain point. I really enjoyed the fist book of that series, though.

    muninn on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2008
    multifarious: i disagree fiercely woth your conclusions. however in my eyes you are still a scholar and a gentleman.

    Organichu on
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Organichu wrote: »
    multifarious: i disagree fiercely woth your conclusions. however in my eyes you are still a scholar and a gentleman.

    at least you're half right. :D

    honestly i don't blame you, i would have said the same when I was reading SoT.

    Give A Song of Ice and Fire by Martin a try. It's got some significant flaws as well - mainly longwindedness - but on the whole, it is the best fantasy escapism entertainment I've read, because it really nails the moral ambiguity that most fantasy lacks. Lord of the Rings, in my mind, fails to be truly evocative because it is too clearly Evil vs Good and I don't think that is compelling.

    But of course, the greatest fantasy author ever is Terry Pratchett. Hysterically funny, brilliant writing, and high-quality social, political, and religious satire. My only objection to him is that his endings are sometimes confusing because he tries to unite all the elements and implies without explaining, on occasion. But it's a very minimal objection. Pratchett's Discworld books are light, fun reading that is enormously entertaining while simultaneously provoking thought and reflection. You can't ask for much more than that from literature, let alone genre fiction.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Evil have you read the Malazan books, you'd dig those for sure if you look asoiaf

    Balefuego on
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    GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Luq wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    Thanatos this had better not be like the time that you said using Icey Hot makes it feel "real authentic, like with a lady". If this Song of Fire & Ice thing doesn't work out, I'll never trust you again. :x
    No he's telling the truth. Here's some real life SAT shit to clarify for you.

    Sword of Truth : CW :: A Song of Ice and Fire : HBO
    Legend of the Seeker is first-run syndicated (like Xena, Herc, Andromeda, Conan, Beastmaster, and Babylon 5). It's not a CW show.

    GungHo on
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    I was getting worried that I'd read and enjoyed the series and somehow managed to forget all that shit, then somebody mentioned that "the sword of truth" was an item in Shannara. Fwew.

    Scalfin on
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Evil have you read the Malazan books, you'd dig those for sure if you look asoiaf

    I started reading the first one and it was so absolutely dreadful that I could not continue beyond the third page.

    I have heard that they improve drastically but my goodness that was some dreck. And it's not exactly a series you can just skip ahead in, I'm sure.

    There are also far too many made-up words for my liking.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited November 2008
    oh yeah, for full disclosure: I shoulf mention that I was a total Randroid when I read SoT years ago... that surely colored my impressions back then.

    Organichu on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Evil have you read the Malazan books, you'd dig those for sure if you look asoiaf

    I started reading the first one and it was so absolutely dreadful that I could not continue beyond the third page.

    I have heard that they improve drastically but my goodness that was some dreck. And it's not exactly a series you can just skip ahead in, I'm sure.

    There are also far too many made-up words for my liking.

    Pick up the 2nd book, you can read that one completley standalone from the first one.

    well, mostly.

    Balefuego on
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    A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    yes all of that too.

    Plus I think the Dany/Drogo scene being presented the way it is makes later events in that storyline seem a bit more believable.

    Of course I fucking hate Dany so there's that to consider.

    Thank you Bale. I'm glad I'm not the only one that hated her.

    A Dabble Of Thelonius on
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    JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Evil have you read the Malazan books, you'd dig those for sure if you look asoiaf

    I started reading the first one and it was so absolutely dreadful that I could not continue beyond the third page.

    I have heard that they improve drastically but my goodness that was some dreck. And it's not exactly a series you can just skip ahead in, I'm sure.

    There are also far too many made-up words for my liking.

    Pick up the 2nd book, you can read that one completley standalone from the first one.

    well, mostly.

    There's a grand total of four characters that are shared between the two books. It's doable. That being said, a large part of why people have a hard time with the first book also applies to the second - they don't pause to explain, who/what things are - its left up to the reader to figure out a lot of the things are, particularly things like warrens. Soultaken and the sort are going to be a sticking point for the second book, but yeah...if things like made up words bother him, Malazan's probably not for him.

    Jragghen on
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