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[WAR] Oh yeah. Slob those Knobs.

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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Brian888 wrote: »
    robothero wrote: »
    Brian888 wrote: »
    robothero wrote: »
    Vampire Counts would work extremely well with Destruction.


    The Vampire Counts HATE Chaos, though.

    I suppose the VCs just don't work as a playable faction.

    Other than the fact they are already broken down into 4 (5) distinct archetypes and are a great counterpart to existing and possibly future order races.


    They seem tailor-made, yes, but you'd have to torture the lore almost unforgivably to get them to cooperate with Chaos (and no Strigoi worth his salt would ever cooperate with orcs; they destroyed the Strigoi kingdom).

    Plus, there's the fact that vampires are inherently supposed to be overwhelmingly powerful; it'd be difficult to credibly balance that against a Squig Hunter.

    Rank and file vampires are the weak spot of the VC army; they're a bit more powerful than an equivalent Empire hero, and no worse than an elf or stunty.

    edit: Riemann's right "lore power level" doesn't apply to WAR. Warhammer = Batman, etc, etc...

    Morskittar on
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    DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited November 2008
    Nagash, or moreso the power behind Nagash is a relative unknown in the warhammer lore and I've heard it argued pretty strongly that you could contend to it being a fifth chaos god. And without Nagash (and the magic of the warp) there is no Vampire Counts.

    Unknown User on
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    Brian888Brian888 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Brian888 wrote: »
    robothero wrote: »
    Brian888 wrote: »
    robothero wrote: »
    Vampire Counts would work extremely well with Destruction.


    The Vampire Counts HATE Chaos, though.

    I suppose the VCs just don't work as a playable faction.

    Other than the fact they are already broken down into 4 (5) distinct archetypes and are a great counterpart to existing and possibly future order races.


    They seem tailor-made, yes, but you'd have to torture the lore almost unforgivably to get them to cooperate with Chaos (and no Strigoi worth his salt would ever cooperate with orcs; they destroyed the Strigoi kingdom).

    Plus, there's the fact that vampires are inherently supposed to be overwhelmingly powerful; it'd be difficult to credibly balance that against a Squig Hunter.

    Rank and file vampires are the weak spot of the VC army; they're a bit more powerful than an equivalent Empire hero, and no worse than an elf or stunty.


    Point taken. I still just can't see it from a lore perspective, though. The whole reason that vampires even exist was as a huge "Fuck You" to the Immaterium, after all.

    Brian888 on
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    robothero wrote: »
    Nagash, or moreso the power behind Nagash is a relative unknown in the warhammer lore and I've heard it argued pretty strongly that you could contend to it being a fifth chaos god. And without Nagash (and the magic of the warp) there is no Vampire Counts.

    There is no power behind Nagash. That's the whole point of Necromancy in Warhammer; it's utilizing the warp for physical longevity and a complete lack of change. Nagash is something like a [strike]Chaos[/strike] Order God of his own ego.

    edit: Brian888 yeah. Vampires are essentially severed from the Aeyther but made of it, so they can manipulate it inherently. They're warp-reflections stolen from the Chaos Gods and made physical through science and alchemy.

    Morskittar on
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    Brian888Brian888 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    robothero wrote: »
    Nagash, or moreso the power behind Nagash is a relative unknown in the warhammer lore and I've heard it argued pretty strongly that you could contend to it being a fifth chaos god. And without Nagash (and the magic of the warp) there is no Vampire Counts.


    Huh? I've never heard of there being a power behind Nagash; he's his OWN power.

    Vampires in Warhammer can survive just fine without magic (aside from Necrarchs, obviously). They can feed off of Dark Magic, but most of them don't like to do it.

    Brian888 on
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    DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited November 2008
    Morskittar wrote: »
    There is no power behind Nagash. That's the whole point of Necromancy in Warhammer; it's utilizing the warp for physical longevity and a complete lack of change. Nagash is something like a [strike]Chaos[/strike] Order God of his own ego.

    This is the exact conversation I had but was strongly argued and swayed otherwise.

    Unknown User on
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Brian888 wrote: »
    robothero wrote: »
    Nagash, or moreso the power behind Nagash is a relative unknown in the warhammer lore and I've heard it argued pretty strongly that you could contend to it being a fifth chaos god. And without Nagash (and the magic of the warp) there is no Vampire Counts.


    Huh? I've never heard of there being a power behind Nagash; he's his OWN power.

    Vampires in Warhammer can survive just fine without magic (aside from Necrarchs, obviously). They can feed off of Dark Magic, but most of them don't like to do it.

    They inherently do it, kind of like daemons. It's just that instead of daemons given shape and idea by mortal fears, they're daemons formed of their own will to live forever and be a parasite of other living things.

    Liber Necris is awesome, by the way.
    robothero wrote: »
    Morskittar wrote: »
    There is no power behind Nagash. That's the whole point of Necromancy in Warhammer; it's utilizing the warp for physical longevity and a complete lack of change. Nagash is something like a [strike]Chaos[/strike] Order God of his own ego.

    This is the exact conversation I had but was strongly argued and swayed otherwise.

    Man, I will go full on nerd and bust out quotes tonight. The whole point of Nagash is that he "beat" the Chaos Gods and natural order.

    edit: Nagash the Sorcerer (the novel) had an interesting revelation;
    Nagash had no inherent Aethyric ability. He learned it as a science and through sheer intelligence.

    Morskittar on
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    DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited November 2008
    Yeah, I have a PDF of it hosted on my site.

    Unknown User on
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    Brian888Brian888 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Brian888 wrote: »
    robothero wrote: »
    Nagash, or moreso the power behind Nagash is a relative unknown in the warhammer lore and I've heard it argued pretty strongly that you could contend to it being a fifth chaos god. And without Nagash (and the magic of the warp) there is no Vampire Counts.


    Huh? I've never heard of there being a power behind Nagash; he's his OWN power.

    Vampires in Warhammer can survive just fine without magic (aside from Necrarchs, obviously). They can feed off of Dark Magic, but most of them don't like to do it.

    They inherently do it, kind of like daemons. It's just that instead of daemons given shape and idea by mortal fears, they're daemons formed of their own will to live forever and be a parasite of other living things.

    Liber Necris is awesome, by the way.


    My understanding of the Liber Necris (which is awesome, you're absolutely right) was that vampires are actually sort of the ultimate expression of the physical world. Humans have soul components that "inhabit" their physical bodies, and soul components that exist in the Aethyr. The process of becoming a vampire "unifies" the soul, so that it entirely exists in the physical world and is forever beyond the reach of Chaos (granting great power to the vampire in the bargain).

    Brian888 on
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    RendRend Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Brian888 wrote: »
    My understanding of the Liber Necris (which is awesome, you're absolutely right) was that vampires are actually sort of the ultimate expression of the physical world. Humans have soul components that "inhabit" their physical bodies, and soul components that exist in the Aethyr. The process of becoming a vampire "unifies" the soul, so that it entirely exists in the physical world and is forever beyond the reach of Chaos (granting great power to the vampire in the bargain).

    ...you're right, that is pretty awesome >.>

    Rend on
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Brian888 wrote: »
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Brian888 wrote: »
    robothero wrote: »
    Nagash, or moreso the power behind Nagash is a relative unknown in the warhammer lore and I've heard it argued pretty strongly that you could contend to it being a fifth chaos god. And without Nagash (and the magic of the warp) there is no Vampire Counts.


    Huh? I've never heard of there being a power behind Nagash; he's his OWN power.

    Vampires in Warhammer can survive just fine without magic (aside from Necrarchs, obviously). They can feed off of Dark Magic, but most of them don't like to do it.

    They inherently do it, kind of like daemons. It's just that instead of daemons given shape and idea by mortal fears, they're daemons formed of their own will to live forever and be a parasite of other living things.

    Liber Necris is awesome, by the way.


    My understanding of the Liber Necris (which is awesome, you're absolutely right) was that vampires are actually sort of the ultimate expression of the physical world. Humans have soul components that "inhabit" their physical bodies, and soul components that exist in the Aethyr. The process of becoming a vampire "unifies" the soul, so that it entirely exists in the physical world and is forever beyond the reach of Chaos (granting great power to the vampire in the bargain).

    Which, conceptually, is a mirror of daemons, who are also formed of the combination of an Aeythyric sentience and warp-form... vampires just provide their own form and source, thus severing the need to remain connected to the warp at large.

    Which is, I think, the single most awesome backstory for vampires anywhere, ever.

    Morskittar on
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    WrenWren ninja_bird Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    neeeeeeeeerd

    Wren on
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    TF2 - Wren BF3: Wren-fu
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    DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited November 2008
    when I get home I'm going to hate-IM Morskittar my Necrarch = chaos god chatlog

    Unknown User on
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Wren wrote: »
    neeeeeeeeerd

    You're like three posts too late or something. I already called this. You should write some fanfic for us as punishment (for all).

    Robot; bring it. I will out-nerd any nerd-debate you've ever had about Warhammer.

    Morskittar on
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    DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited November 2008
    I've met you, I'm sure you have no problem outnerding anything. (heyooooo)

    I'm just saying that the argument given to me provided ample wiggle room for the concept to be possibly added in the future with minimal ret-conning (unlike the goddamn brettonians who change with every version)

    I don't buy it completely until it happens, but it gives me reason enough to not see any more hate between VCs and Chaos than, like someone said earlier Dwarves and High Elves.

    Unknown User on
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    Brian888Brian888 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Brian888 wrote: »
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Brian888 wrote: »
    robothero wrote: »
    Nagash, or moreso the power behind Nagash is a relative unknown in the warhammer lore and I've heard it argued pretty strongly that you could contend to it being a fifth chaos god. And without Nagash (and the magic of the warp) there is no Vampire Counts.


    Huh? I've never heard of there being a power behind Nagash; he's his OWN power.

    Vampires in Warhammer can survive just fine without magic (aside from Necrarchs, obviously). They can feed off of Dark Magic, but most of them don't like to do it.

    They inherently do it, kind of like daemons. It's just that instead of daemons given shape and idea by mortal fears, they're daemons formed of their own will to live forever and be a parasite of other living things.

    Liber Necris is awesome, by the way.


    My understanding of the Liber Necris (which is awesome, you're absolutely right) was that vampires are actually sort of the ultimate expression of the physical world. Humans have soul components that "inhabit" their physical bodies, and soul components that exist in the Aethyr. The process of becoming a vampire "unifies" the soul, so that it entirely exists in the physical world and is forever beyond the reach of Chaos (granting great power to the vampire in the bargain).

    Which, conceptually, is a mirror of daemons, who are also formed of the combination of an Aeythyric sentience and warp-form... vampires just provide their own form and source, thus severing the need to remain connected to the warp at large.

    Which is, I think, the single most awesome backstory for vampires anywhere, ever.


    It is, and is probably why Warhammer vampires aren't really angsty. They recognize that being a vampire isn't a curse, it's a one-way ticket to heavy metal nirvana. "Hmmmm...I can be immortal, have fabulous powers, manipulate history, etc., versus living in sub-medieval squalor and potentially being Slaanesh's fucktoy in the afterlife. Tough choice."

    Brian888 on
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Hey Robot, at least I can still drink beer if I get a little runny nose.

    Warhammer vampires are generally the only ones that don't irritate me in any setting. And I don't think any interpretation means they hate Chaos that much; just see invading hordes as threatening their way of life and safety (and food).

    Morskittar on
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    DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited November 2008
    beer makes me gassy

    Unknown User on
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    WrenWren ninja_bird Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    beer makes me woozy and slurs my speech. I don't know why but I don't touch the stuff anymore

    Wren on
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    TF2 - Wren BF3: Wren-fu
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Excuses. I suppose neither of you would be rolling any Empire or stunties ever.

    Morskittar on
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    DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited November 2008
    I never said I dislike farting.

    Unknown User on
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    Hiryu02Hiryu02 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Mastery Rune mem leak fixed.

    Hiryu02 on
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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    ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I want to play a wood elf

    there's something about them that makes them much cooler than the average elf.

    Zzulu on
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    WrenWren ninja_bird Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Excuses. I suppose neither of you would be rolling any Empire or stunties ever.

    says the leader of a chaos guild

    Wren on
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    TF2 - Wren BF3: Wren-fu
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    starmanbrandstarmanbrand Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I want to play. My choices are- Level my Magus or my DoK (21 and 20 respectively) higher. Or I have lvl1s of a: Zealot, Marauder, and Squiggy that I want to level.

    If you want to do some alting, tell me which of mine I should get on and where to go.

    LETS DO IT HUHHUHHUH

    starmanbrand on
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    AeonfellAeonfell Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    You guys are getting me a little lore-roused.

    Aeonfell on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PA isn't much better than VN. It's just got a more classy level of stupid.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PA isn't much better than VN. It's just got a more classy level of stupid.

    "You cockbiter, ha" instead of "u cockbiter lol".


    I'm going to so RvR the hell out of WAR this weekend. I've been away from slaughtering fools for weeks. My poor RR is like four levels behind my rank.

    Morskittar on
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    Hiryu02Hiryu02 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    And we mostly hew towards the non-propagation of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory?

    Hiryu02 on
    Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Morskittar wrote: »
    PA isn't much better than VN. It's just got a more classy level of stupid.

    "You cockbiter, ha" instead of "u cockbiter lol".


    I'm going to so RvR the hell out of WAR this weekend. I've been away from slaughtering fools for weeks. My poor RR is like four levels behind my rank.

    Yeah, basically.

    The only real difference is that instead of going "That's stupid!" people here go "That's stupid! Detailed explanation!"

    I haven't seen a huge magical increase in quality of post to be honest. There's still egos, stupid wars, ridiculous rivalries and shortsightedness.

    But it's ok it's why I love you guys. <3

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    RyokazeRyokaze Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Morskittar wrote: »
    PA isn't much better than VN. It's just got a more classy level of stupid.

    "You cockbiter, ha" instead of "u cockbiter lol".


    I'm going to so RvR the hell out of WAR this weekend. I've been away from slaughtering fools for weeks. My poor RR is like four levels behind my rank.

    Yeah, basically.

    The only real difference is that instead of going "That's stupid!" people here go "That's stupid! Detailed explanation!"

    I haven't seen a huge magical increase in quality of post to be honest. There's still egos, stupid wars, ridiculous rivalries and shortsightedness.

    But it's ok it's why I love you guys. <3


    NO U

    Ryokaze on
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aeonfell wrote: »
    You guys are getting me a little lore-roused.

    We could talk about Nagash some more.

    Have you ever heard about his hat?

    Morskittar on
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    DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited November 2008
    Everyone wants a piece of his hat.

    Unknown User on
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    ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    so why is Nagash so powerful

    How did a necromancer become one of the most powerful beings in Warhammer lore?

    Zzulu on
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    17_01i.jpg

    Morskittar on
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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Zzulu wrote: »
    so why is Nagash so powerful

    How did a necromancer become one of the most powerful beings in Warhammer lore?

    The power of SCIENCE!

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Zzulu wrote: »
    so why is Nagash so powerful

    How did a necromancer become one of the most powerful beings in Warhammer lore?

    Bigger head.

    In part because he wasn't "a necromancer". He created one of the first human schools of magic use after torturing magical knowledge from a group of dark elves, as a means to create a science that allowed him to leech the life essence of others to become immortal.

    He then wiped out an entire nation and raised them from the dead. All of them.

    Morskittar on
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    mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PA isn't much better than VN. It's just got a more classy level of stupid.

    I'm not sure if I can concur on that point. There is certainly a level of stupid here, but it tends to be of the average stupid kind, whereas VNBoards has an extremely healthy population of facerollers and other people who have obviously experienced a great deal of trauma to the head.

    mynameisguido on
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    grrarggrrarg Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Morskittar and robothero are such huge nerds.

    I've been sick all day today. I can't help comparing myself to the Revolting Crock. Guess that makes me a huge nerd too.

    grrarg on
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    MorskittarMorskittar Lord Warlock Engineer SeattleRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I had not seen that awesome crock before. I need to go acquire that.

    Also, we should mandate that Mouths fire off their crocks at the start of every scenario.

    Morskittar on
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