Let's play Nomic

Zombiemambo

Nomic is a game of rules - the rule being that the rules change.
Initially the game is simple: accumulate 100 points by sucessfully passing a rule during your turn. All rule changes are to be voted on, majority wins. However, these rules can change, including the rule that rule changes must be voted on. Points are earned based on how many people voted for a rule to be passed.

Here's a quick quote from Wikipedia for those too lazy to click the link above that outlines the gameplay:

nitially, gameplay occurs in clockwise order, with each player taking a turn. In that turn, they propose a change in rules that all the other players vote on, and then roll a die to determine the number of points they add to their score. If this rule change is passed, it comes into effect at the end of their round. Any rule can be changed with varying degrees of difficulty, including the core rules of the game itself. As such, the gameplay may quickly change.

Rules are divided up into two types: mutable and immutable. The main difference between these is that immutable rules must be changed into mutable rules (called transmuting) before they can be modified or removed. Immutable rules also take precedence over mutable ones. A rule change may be:
the addition of a new mutable rule
an amendment to a mutable rule
the repeal of a mutable rule
the transmutation of a rule from mutable to immutable
or the transmutation of a rule from immutable to mutable

Alternative starting rulesets exist for Internet and mail games, wherein gameplay occurs in alphabetical order by surname, and points added to the score are based on the success of a proposed rule change rather than random dice rolls.

The full rules:

THE OFFICIAL RULES (for now)

During your turn, you have a few choices:

- Proposal of a mutable rule - this rules begins immutable

- Amendment of a mutable rule - this rule begins immutable

- Removal of a mutable rule - this rule begins immutable

- Changing of a mutable rule to immutable - this rule begins immutable

- Changing of an immutable rule to a mutable rule - this rule begins immutable

NOTE: a mutable rule can be changed and/or removed. An immutable rule must first be changed into a mutable rule in order to be changed and/or removed.

Each of these choices must be voted on. For example: if you want to change a rule, you propose the change being made (to a mutable rule, of course), and voting begins. If the proposal receives a simple majority of the vote, it is passed and you earn 1 point for every vote in favor of your change. You get nothing if your rule change/addition/removal does not pass. The rule change/addition/removal comes into effect immediately following the conclusion of the vote. Votes placed before a player proposal will count for whatever proposal he makes.

The first player to reach 100 points wins the game. All rules, including the ones described above, are subject to change.

NOTE: you can propose any kind of rule change you so desire. This includes proposing a rule for a victory during your next turn (when it comes into effect).

PROPOSING RULE ADDITIONS, AMENDMENTS AND REMOVALS

In order to propose the addition of a rule, use the following: !Add n

In order to propose the amendment of a rule, use the following: !Change n

In order to propose the change of a mutable rule to an immutable rule and vice versa: !Transmute n, where n is the rule you want to transmute. NOTE: You must mention the current state of the rule, whether it is mutable or immutable.

In order to propose the removal of a rule, use the following: !Remove n

If a rule is passed that contradicts a previous rule, the newest rule supersedes the previous one.

!Signup below. We'll get as many players as we can and then we'll begin. The turn order will be decided by alphabetical order.

SIGN UP LIST

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Zombiemambo
nefffffffffff
Darian
MundaneSoul
Legionnaired
MechMantis
[strike]Orange Soda[/strike]
Jester 313
Kime
WeatheredClown

ALL TURNS WILL LAST 48 HOURS. WITHIN THOSE 48 HOURS, THE PLAYER WHOSE TURN IT IS MUST MAKE AN ACTION WITHIN THE FIRST 24 HOURS OR BE PASSED. ALL OTHER PLAYERS THEN VOTE ON HIS OR HER PROPOSAL. AFTER 48 HOURS, THE NEXT PLAYER BEGINS HIS TURN.

nefffffffffff

I haven't read the detailed rules yet, but this sounds interesting, so I'll give them a read tomorrow or something then let you know if I want to play.

Darian

The Player list with scores and status(current player in bold)
Darian: 7
Jester313: 3
Kime: 1
Legionnaired: 3
MechMantis: 0
MundaneSoul: 0
nefffffffffff: -6
WeatheredClown: -8
Zombiemambo
Hylianbunny: -10
A Bear



Enacted rules:

Darian wrote: »

201. Player definitions

a) A Player shall be defined as the controller of a Penny-Arcade forums account which is in the Player list in section 201.b

b) The Player list is:
Darian
Jester313
Kime
Legionnaired
MechMantis
MundaneSoul
nefffffffffff
WeatheredClown
Zombiemambo
Hylianbunny
A Bear

c) The Current Player shall be defined as the Player whose turn it is

d) An Active Player shall be defined as any Player who has voted on any proposal within the last 48 hours.

e) An Inactive Player shall be defined as any Player who is not considered an Active Player

kime wrote: »

202. Additional Proposal

1. This rule goes into effect on Friday, Novermber 28, 2008 at 3:00 pm EST.
   
2. Any Active Player may propose a rule change/addition/removal (hereafter refered to as CAR) as long as the following conditions are met:
   1. The Player proposing the rule CAR has not proposed a rule CAR within the last 36 hours. The Player proposing the rule CAR cannot be the Current Player within following 12 hours.
      
   2. No more then two rule CARs may be proposed at any one time. If the Current Player has not proposed a rule CAR, then no more than one rule CAR may be proposed at that time.
      
   3. Voting for every rule CAR ends 24 hours after the rule CAR is proposed, unless the Current Player is the proposer, in which case voting will end 48 hours after the Current Player's turn began.
3. "HylianBunny" will be added to the end of the Player List and shall be considered an Active Player. He shall have 0 points. This is a one-time action that only goes into effect when this rule goes into effect.

Legionnaired wrote: »

Rule 203 mutable

The Informal definition, specified here:

OP wrote:

Each of these choices must be voted on. For example: if you want to change a rule, you propose the change being made (to a mutable rule, of course), and voting begins. If the proposal receives a simple majority of the vote, it is passed and you earn 1 point for every vote in favor of your change. You get nothing if your rule change/addition/removal does not pass. The rule change/addition/removal comes into effect immediately following the conclusion of the vote. Votes placed before a player proposal will count for whatever proposal he makes.

Is hereby replaced with the following enumerated rule.

1) Players receive one point for each vote in favor of their proposal, if the proposal passes.

2) A Change, Addition, Transmutation, or Removal action shall pass if the number of votes cast FOR a proposal is strictly greater than the number of votes cast AGAINST a proposal[strike].[/strike] at the end of the current player's turn.

3) Any other rules that specifically dictate the conditions of any of these Change, Addition, Transmutation, or Removal actions passing have precedence over clause 2 of this rule, even if other rules dictate that this rule should have priority. (This rule explicitly yields its priority to another rule that fits the description)

4) A vote for a proposal may be cast at any time, even before the proposal has been made. In such a case, the vote cast shall count for whatever proposal the current player proposes.

5) A player shall 'win' the game if their number of points totals at least 100.

6) A change in the rules shall, after 'passing,' immediately be in effect.

7) Any player may !Call into Question an active proposal by the current player.

8) Should the legality of a rule come into question, the player who was the current player before the current turn acts as a Judge, and have the authority to render a final verdict on the rule's validity.

9) Should the Judge rule that the proposal is valid, voting continues as if the rule were never called into question, with the exception that the rule may never again be !Called into Question.

10) Should the Judge rule that the proposal is invalid, the proposal is treated as if it were never proposed.

11) Should the Judge not issue a ruling, or abstain from voting, or allow a time period of 24 hours to elapse between when a rule is !Called into Question, the Game Master shall have final authority and obligation to rule on the matter. This 24 hour period is referred to as the 'trial.'

12) Should the Game Master abstain from voting, or allows a period of 24 hours to elapse after the judge abstains or the trial expires, the Game Master shall immediately become an Active Player and lose his status as a Game Master. A vote will then be taken to establish a new Game Master. This vote will last 48 hours, and whichever Active Player gets the most votes shall become the new Game Master.

This rule comes into play as rule 203, and by the laws present at its inception, it is mutable until Transmuted.

kime wrote: »

301. Special Words mutable

1. When a Player proposes a rule Change, Addition, or Removal, and it passes, they become the Word Namer. If another player (hereafter referred to as "Player B") already has that title, then Player B is stripped of the title.
   
2. The Word Namer is responsible, within 60 minutes of becoming the Word Namer, of naming a word. The Word Namer does this by posting a single word in Bold, Magenta format. This word is considered a named word for 24 hours after the Word Namer posts it in the specified format, after which it is no longer considered a named word.
   
   1. If the Word Namer does not comply with 301.b, then 10 points are subtracted from the Word Namer's score.
3. Any Player that votes must include all named words in their post that contains the vote.
   1. If a Player does not comply with 301.c, then 10 points are subtracted from the Player's score.
4. Posts that have been edited do not comply with this rule.
   
5. Penguins are awesome.

weatheredclown wrote: »

!Propose side CAR
Side CAR 002.

1. Rules not proposed by the current player will be referred to as "side CARS"
2. side CARS will be numbered sequentially independant of the current round (beginning after this rule the number will be 003, 004, etc)
3. proposer of the current side CAR may call an end to side car voting at any time
3a. if voting is ended before the normally elapsed time the votes are tallied as follows
3a1. if there is a simple majority in the "yes" votes (the number of players who have voted yes is greater than half of the number of players eligible to vote), the rule passes
3a2. if the rule fails to have a simple majority of yes votes (as defined above), it does not pass
3b. after the vote has been closed by the player, the slot for the next side CAR is made immediately avaiable
3b1. The side CAR rule goes into affect immediately if it passed
4. The Bear will be immediately added to the bottom of the player list (article 4 is a one time action)
5. In the future, things that are awesome may be used in a mechanic which awards points

nefffffffffff wrote: »

Proposal 204 (Just Compensation):

204.1; Should it be passed, proposal 204 will become active at the beginning of the next round of turns, so as to prevent a player at the end of the list from gaining unfair advantage. (I.E. It comes into effect at the beginning of Darian's next turn.)
204.2; Should it be passed into law, proposal 204 indicates that if, and when, rule changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 5 points apiece. These players who receive 5 points also receive a mandatory change in status and become "Penguins."
204.P.a; Should proposition 204 be passed, Penguins differ from players only in nomenclature, and have the same rights, advantages, and disadvantages as Players (with the exception of clause 204.P.c) unless future laws specify otherwise.
204.P.b; Should a Player gain Penguin status, they must revert to Player status when (if and only if) they make a proposal that is passed into law (including side CARs.)
204.P.c; In accordance with Side CAR 301, Players who gain Penguin status are to be considered awesome.

kime wrote: »

003. Rights of Players

1. Inactive Players may not propose a rule change, addition, or removal.
2. In accordance with their awesomeness, Penguins are granted the following rights and responsibilities:
   1. Penguins may change their vote as many times as they wish. Only a Penguin's last vote for any specific proposal will be considered; any previous votes for that specific proposal is rendered null and invalid.
   2. Penguins may be exempted from saying the named word(s) (as specified in rule 301) once per 48-hour period. When a Penguin is exempted, they may vote without saying any named words without suffering any point penalty.
   3. For the following 48 hours after a Penguin votes without the named word and is exempted, 003.b.ii does not apply to that Penguin.
   4. Penguins must post a 50 word speech (more than 50 words is acceptable) once per 24-hour period detailing the awesomeness of penguins. This may be related to the either awesomeness of penguins, the animals, or Penguins, the Players.
   5. Any Penguin who fails to adhere to 003.b.iv will have 20 point subtracted from their score and will no longer be considered a Penguin, but will be relegated to the state of Active Player of Inactive Player, as detailed in Rule 201.
3. Any Active Player who does not vote in approval of passing this rule addition (hereafter referred to as Naysayers) will receive the one-time penalty detailed in the following:
   1. The Naysayer must publicly post one 30-word-minimum explanation to each Player who is not a Naysayer. Each explanation must include reasons why the Player it is addressed to is a wonderful and awesome human being.
4. Failure to adhere to 003.c within 24 hours of the passing of this rule will result in a one-time penalty of 10 points being subtracted from each Player who failed to adhere.

Zombiemambo

Darian wrote: »

How long will each "turn" last? Just wondering how this is going to work/what sort of time commitment we're talking about.

I don't know, maybe 24 hours per person and then we skip them? We can do more or less, but I want people to have time to go about their lives.

nefffffffffff

allright I'm in. when do we start?

EDIT: err, yeah. what I meant to say was that I want to sign up

Darian

I'll signup for this.

MundaneSoul

Sounds wacky.

!sign up

Legionnaired

Sounds fun.

!Sign up!

MechMantis

I think I can pull this off.

!Sign up

Legionnaired

Are we going to get an official posting of the ruleset?

Also, would we like a wiki dedicated to this purpose? My webspace is currently collecting dust.

We could use this thread for all discussion, and the wiki as an 'authoritative' rules source.

Zombiemambo

Legionnaired wrote: »

Are we going to get an official posting of the ruleset?

Also, would we like a wiki dedicated to this purpose? My webspace is currently collecting dust.

We could use this thread for all discussion, and the wiki as an 'authoritative' rules source.

THE OFFICIAL RULES (for now)

During your turn, you have a few choices:

- Proposal of a mutable rule - this rules begins immutable

- Amendment of a mutable rule - this rule begins immutable

- Removal of a mutable rule - this rule begins immutable

- Changing of a mutable rule to immutable - this rule begins immutable

- Changing of an immutable rule to a mutable rule - this rule begins immutable

NOTE: a mutable rule can be changed and/or removed. An immutable rule must first be changed into a mutable rule in order to be changed and/or removed.

Each of these choices must be voted on. For example, if you want to change a rule, you propose the change being made (to a mutable rule, of course), and everyone votes on that change. Should the rule pass, you will gain 1 point for every vote in favor of your change. You get nothing if your rule change/addition/removal does not pass. The rule change/addition/removal comes into effect during your NEXT turn. Majority vote wins, of course.

The first player to reach 100 points wins the game. All rules, including the ones described above, are subject to change.

NOTE: you can propose any kind of rule change you so desire. This includes proposing a rule for a victory during your next turn (when it comes into effect).

PROPOSING RULE ADDITIONS, AMENDMENTS AND REMOVALS

In order to propose the addition of a rule, use the following: !Add n

In order to propose the amendment of a rule, use the following: !Change n

In order to propose the change of a mutable rule to an immutable rule and vice versa: !Transmute n, where n is the rule you want to transmute. NOTE: You must mention the current state of the rule, whether it is mutable or immutable.

In order to propose the removal of a rule, use the following: !Remove n

Darian

Cyan is a bit easier to read than blue; could we use that for change instead?

nefffffffffff

I propose we !Change the color of "!Change" to Cyan instead of Blue.

Orange Soda

!Sign up
I like rules

Zombiemambo

Whoops, I forgot to mention:

Vote !Yes if you want a rule to be passed

Vote !No if you want a rule to be struck down

So to make my job easier, vote 'yes' or 'no' and then state the rule you want to be added, removed or changed. For example, if we wanted to change the color of 'change' from blue to cyan:

Vote !Yes to change the color of !Change from blue to cyan

Additionally, at the end of each round (which ends when everyone has taken a turn or has been passed due to inactivity), I will post the current list of rules that have passed. Any rule that has passed before the round ends is inactive until the end of the round. When the list is posted, all of the rules on the list are active.

Jester313

!sign up.
Last time I played one of these, it ended with homicide.

But that guy had it coming.

Darian

Proposal: The game shall not end until homicide.

Was that why?

Jester313

It passed nearly unanimously.

Darian

Of course it did; for everyone who isn't in the lead, it will stop them from losing, obviously.

MundaneSoul

This is going to be fantastic.

When do we start?

Legionnaired

That ruleset seems a bit anemic - how many votes are required for passage of a change? Of Mutability?

You might want to itemize and number the paragraph of informal description as well, so those rules can be changed too.

Zombiemambo

Legionnaired wrote: »

That ruleset seems a bit anemic - how many votes are required for passage of a change? Of Mutability?

You might want to itemize and number the paragraph of informal description as well, so those rules can be changed too.

Majority votes wins, every time. If it's 6 players in favor of, and 5 players against, the rule is passed.

Legionnaired

Zombiemambo wrote: »

Legionnaired wrote: »

That ruleset seems a bit anemic - how many votes are required for passage of a change? Of Mutability?

You might want to itemize and number the paragraph of informal description as well, so those rules can be changed too.

Majority votes wins, every time. If it's 6 players in favor of, and 5 players against, the rule is passed.

OK, that's going to be an actual, enumerated rule, along with all the other implied rules, for this to work.

For example:

Nomic:

101. All players shall play by the rules.

102. Rules in the 100 are 'immutable', and cannot be changed.

103. A rule change is a change to an existing mutable rule, a rule's change from mutable to immutable or vice-versa, or the introduction of a new rule.

104. All rule changes shall be voted on, and shall become rules if and only if they recieve a required number of votes.

105. All players are eligible voters.

106. All proposed rule changes must be written down before they are voted on.

107. Each rule-change shall have a number for reference.

108. Rule changes from immutable to mutable and vice versa may be adopted only if the vote is unanimous.

109. Immutable rules win over mutable rules.

110. Players may argue on proposed rule changes for 24 hours.

111. Winning shall always refer to a player scoring N points.

112. A player has the option to forfeit the game.

113. The adoption of rule-changes must always be allowed.

201. Players begin with 0 points. Play begins in clockwise order, taking one turn per player.

202. A Turn is proposing 1 rule change with a vote, and throwing one dice and adding the number of points on its face to one's score

203. A Rule is only changed if the vote is unanimous

204. A player has exactly one vote.

205. When a proposed rule change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.

206. The Winner is the first player to achieve 100 Positive points

207. If two rules conflict, the rule with the lowest number takes precidence

208. If further play is impossible due to a paradox, where a move is both legal and illegal, the first player unable to complete a turn wins.

nefffffffffff

does proposing a rule change count as a positive vote? if not I want to vote !yes for changing the color of !Change from blue to cyan.

Orange Soda

I don't think we have started yet so we are not going to vote for that yet.

Beside everyone knows the best rule to pass is that everyone's votes count for random multipliers of prime numbers from 1-29 (fuck you 1 is prime!)

Darian

One is not prime.

glares

MechMantis

Yeah, one is SO not prime.

It isn't composite, it doesn't have more than two factors.

It isn't prime, because it only has one factor, itself.

It is neither.

Orange Soda

:-) that's why I said "fuck you 1 is prime", because although it is not really prime I think a rule surrounding votes being counted for multiples should include a x1 .... but when it comes my turn to pass that vote I may have the range be from 2-29 to avoid all confusion.

Zombiemambo

I've made this perfectly clear, have I not? You can make your vote count as 100 votes, provided it passes. It won't, because that's a clearly one-sided rule, but every single rule in the game, including this one, can change. If you have the time, you can make this fucking Dungeons & Dragons.

EDIT: To make this even clearer, the rule that every rule can change? It can change.

nefffffffffff

when do we start?

Zombiemambo

Well I'm going to be gone from Friday to Monday, so it might be best to have someone take over for me if you want to start soon.

Legionnaired

Zombiemambo wrote: »

I've made this perfectly clear, have I not? You can make your vote count as 100 votes, provided it passes. It won't, because that's a clearly one-sided rule, but every single rule in the game, including this one, can change. If you have the time, you can make this fucking Dungeons & Dragons.

EDIT: To make this even clearer, the rule that every rule can change? It can change.

And I said you need to have an unambiguous list of rules.

This is a game to simulate a legal system

MechMantis

...what.

Christ is there any other way to have a vote other than majority? If it really really needs it, you can make that change for your turn and we will all vote it up. Otherwise, common sense rules.

Quitcherbitchin and let's play.

I suppose we could have 2/3rds majority but then nothing would get done.

Legionnaired

How many votes does it take to go from immutable to mutable?

How many votes to go from immutable to the as of yet uncreated superimmutable?

You could argue anything under the current 'vote passes,' but logic would dictate there needs to be more and more votes as the importance of the rules goes up.

Unless there exist clear, easily referenced, unambiguous rules, this game is going to become a lot of yelling and hair pulling.

kime

Not playing, but as a reference here was the Nomic game from D&D about a year ago. I think it has something that Legionnaired is referring to, a clear set of the laws. That sometimes get incredibly redundant (defining "Players" and such), but it leaves no room for misinterpretation and lots of room to try and slip in things in the wording though loopholes and such.

MechMantis

Majority, like the game maker said?

EDIT: Why should we have all the rules made up at the start? If we want to set up vote limits (2/3rds majority and the like) on making immutable, we can add that. The rules should start out simple, and then evolve into a more complex set.

weatheredclown

Too late to !signup for this?

kime

Actually, I'll sign up too. I'm dead in nearly all the Phallas anyways, need something to keep occupied :P!

nefffffffffff

MechMantis wrote: »

...what.

Christ is there any other way to have a vote other than majority? If it really really needs it, you can make that change for your turn and we will all vote it up. Otherwise, common sense rules.

Quitcherbitchin and let's play.

I suppose we could have 2/3rds majority but then nothing would get done.

You could also have a plurality, although when voting simply 'yes' or 'no' that wouldn't really come into play.

kime

nefffffffffff wrote: »

MechMantis wrote: »

...what.

Christ is there any other way to have a vote other than majority? If it really really needs it, you can make that change for your turn and we will all vote it up. Otherwise, common sense rules.

Quitcherbitchin and let's play.

I suppose we could have 2/3rds majority but then nothing would get done.

You could also have a plurality, although when voting simply 'yes' or 'no' that wouldn't really come into play.

And "yes" and "no" always being the only two options (or always even being an option) is not guaranteed.

Orange Soda

!cancel sign up Sorry looks like I wont have time for this after all.