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I draw stufffffffff AND PAINT!! (NSFW STUFFZ AND NSF56K)

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    crawdaddiocrawdaddio Tacoma, WARegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2009
    Aw, don't worry, sometimes these things look worse than they are because of only one or two small things. I think in this case, those things would be the eyes (and maybe a bit of the nose, if only by extension. To illustrate, I did a really quick craw-doesn't-even-have-a-mouse "draw"-over:

    tweak1.gif

    The only thing(s) I changed (aside from tweaking the levels, just so I could see better) were moving the eye to the right a bit (the space between the eyes should itself be about an eyewidth apart), and clean up the left (our left) side of the nose around the eye (really I only did that to erase that part of the eye from when I copy/pasted it, but the improvement made me realize that the original shading of the nose was fuzzy, and that made the nose look like it was at the wrong angle).

    Anyway, there are also issues with the eye shapes themselves, (and, I think, a bit with the nose), but not in a drawover; I'll have to get out my sketchbook.

    crawdaddio on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    The eyes and the nose are all horribly off, like I said theres so many mistakes I made in this, it's obviously not just flukes. It's because I personally don't understand noses and eyes completely. Sure I know a facial structure interior but I have had yet to really study the exterior parts. I feel so stupid just jumping into a attempt of something like this without thinking about that. I mean, yah it's all just wrong. there really is no "ohhh you where on the right track."

    I mean thank you for being nice but you don't need to lie, to tell myself I know a face and merely messed up would be being indenial. Usually when people mess up on a drawing its because they dont understand how to grasp what they see either if it is something physically, or mentally.Usually, sometimes your just bored out of your mind and your hand slips then you gotta fix it and oh snap it gets worst. Or you forget to measure something that would make something else proper.

    Like for instance I still have trouble grasping a thumb still gotta get that down, sigh, anddddd I have been skipping practicing eyes/eye movement/Proper noses cause i'm a idiot.

    Loomdun on
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    rtsrts Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Loomdun, one thing that really bothers me about you is that you seem to think learning to draw is like a checklist. "Well I did this, check that off the list!"

    It is not like a checklist.

    This goes further back to our discussion about anatomy and what it does and does not do for us as artists. Train your eye first buddy, train your eye. Then worry about what it is you are drawing. Learn to observe properly, and you can draw anything you see, anatomy knowledge or no. Once you have the proper eye, you can take that and run with it in whatever direction you want.

    Eye movement? What the hell? The nose, eyes, ass crack, rocket ship, universe, tree, ant, river and ear are all just shapes. Learn to see the shapes!

    rts on
    skype: rtschutter
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    crawdaddiocrawdaddio Tacoma, WARegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2009
    Few things: First, cut it the fuck out. You're beating yourself up when you shouldn't be, and that kind of attitude will block your progress. Perhaps you don't know faces (you'd know better than me), but you're certainly not stupid for trying this. Learn from it; don't dwell on it like this.

    Second: I agree for the most part with cake; learning to observe is first and foremost; knowing every anatomical detail of the eye, and the muscles that control its movement, and the placement of the eyelashes, will do you diddly squat if you can't look at a face and reproduce faithfully on paper what you see; my brother knows damn near everything there is to know about cars, but he sure as hell can't draw one. I know that you want to be able to move away from that, to draw faces that you visualize in your mind, but you have to do a lot of the first before you move to the second. And even then, you should keep doing the first. Additionally, knowing how to draw well what faces you see will help inform your structural knowledge.

    Third: That said, if it's structural knowledge you seek, I imagine you'd be best off with the myriad anatomy books people mention around here, so I'll only say that really, what RubberAC said isn't quite right: eyelids are really just flesh wrapped around a ball, and if you're looking from the right angle, that circumference is going to look like it curves down.

    crawdaddio on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    You are right, I've probably studied more in such a silly thing then I should have for having as a reference. Long boring story where this habit came from, but it wont be hard at all to break. Oh well i'm the one making more of a fool out of myself by being annoyed at it.

    Anywho I suppose figuring out how i will improve more isn't anymore of that nonesense, kindaaa obvious now. Anyways I appreciate the honesty I always feel its sometimes the only way to help people who are running themselves into the ground to stop it. yay!

    Loomdun on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Anyways, talk talk talk, this thread is 90% talk and 10% work. I'm done with just showing "projects", plus I want to do fun stuff not just studies like things I saw other people doing in other threads. :< I don't really know what to do so I guess a start is figures portraits and hands. Of course I drew a bunch of random crappy scribbed stuff for a few hours when I didn't know what to do. while flopping about like a fish
    IMG_0283.jpg

    IMG_0291.jpg

    And then I finally decided to really listen and observer what I saw, (as well as play around a bit. cough)

    IMG_0284.jpg

    IMG_0285.jpg

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    I really need to work on making hands look similar to its owner in some way guess its a werewolf women!!

    IMG_0290.jpg

    I'm gonna be posting 2-4 times as much work as this everysingle day for a while. I was just trying to figure out what to do for the past day.

    Loomdun on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Not as much as I would like to have done today but oh well. I think taking each page individually is better.

    IMG_0313.jpg

    IMG_0312.jpg

    Omg sad clown fell down
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    IMG_0307.jpg

    NER
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    IMG_0308.jpg

    weee
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    sorry bacon I was running out of ideas of portraits
    IMG_0320.jpg

    snooty asian person
    IMG_0321.jpg

    NOOOO WHYYYYYYY?!?!
    IMG_0319.jpg

    Ew.. I messed up on the thumb.
    IMG_0322.jpg

    IMG_0323.jpg

    IMG_0317.jpg

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    YAY Thats it for today gonna work more for tommorow, zz it's about time i started working like this ago. I thought I was losing my touch when I stopped back in highschool.

    I would of done more but yah there wherent anymore pages left.

    Loomdun on
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    crawdaddiocrawdaddio Tacoma, WARegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2009
    The first hand (No why one) is off; at first I thought it was the position of the fingers, but given that it's in perspective, that wasn't it. The problem is that the hand has no knuckles, which would be seen above the part where the fingers separate. Although, on second thought, the ring finger and pinkie are off in their position; the lines through their axes wouldn't intersect that far out.

    crawdaddio on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    probably, I'm still getting use to drawing with basically.... everything I sometimes think I put to much expectation to learn to fast this is going to be my second semester in college in 6-7 more days till i head back yay. And I've only had 1 year before this doing serious studies (in highschool)and 2 years before that wondering if I want to even be a artist going off and on with like only 2 sketchbooks. It's only really been about, 2 months since now that I learned how to finally draw a hand so I'm wobbly on everything I make. I still have trouble with thumbs and I sometimes forget how to include knuckles.

    So if you count when I first ever drew it's now been 4 years, but I mean, that was when I first ever drew anything. Technically 2 years. My work varies from detail to sloppy very fast I lack the experience I suppose. Especially seen in my "attempt" of a self portrait.


    IMG_0324.jpg

    Eh to many words

    Loomdun on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    YAY MORE STUFF todayyyy, I wanted to learn a tad more in observing so I did a few sloppy fast half done sketches of hand to view a way to understand it while I draw it. And then I applied what i learned into 3-4 hands I forgot. Also the new sketchbook I have is shaped sideways, so I can fit more stuff per page!

    IMG_0327.jpg

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    NER?
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    thats all, not so much today.

    Loomdun on
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    GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Loomdun, I think you are jumping the gun here.

    You need to start smaller before you can start drawing people. Right now all you've got are vague silhouettes of people without any thought of gesture through the spine/neck, basic shapes, proportions, balance, yada yada yada. This isn't supposed to be a slam on you more as an honest observation. I know this because sometime about a year ago I did one of those super-drawing-marathon threads like this one, and I made a lot of the same mistakes that you did. Unfortunately, throughout the two-ish month period I learned very little because I didn't simplify my problems and jumped the gun via these people-shapes that you're making, and I would have improved much, much faster if I had simply polished off simpler exercises to a mirror shine before moving to full fledged figures.

    I posted this in another thread, but I think it would help you more if you did box forms instead of what you're doing now. Here's an example:

    img003.jpg

    Notice all the various shifts in the boxes, the curve of the neck, arch of the spine and weight/balance this simple box man has? The human form is the most difficult form to master, and the things I just listed is only the beginning. If you ignore all of these it's like building a house by starting with the siding first.

    Just stick with basic exercises for now. The big projects that you do for class is fine, but if you really want to see some quicker improvement learn to simplify.

    Godfather on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Alright, I was about to actually try slowing down and spending more time on gestures to, I can try that as well. (I did have to do boxes back last semester, but it was a very short time about a week with it. Human anatomy focused more on studying the body more then just life drawing where its plain drawing what you see.) Taking life drawing finally though this semester.

    IMG_0339.jpg

    I find that its mediocre even with me spending time to pull out the movement by memory. So since I don't have a model to draw from, I suppose I shall break it down to cylinders and boxes.

    And I am aware of some movement as well as curve of the spine, I'll slow down and see how things go with boxes/cylinders. And thank you I dont care to think of myself as a beginner because I am.

    Loomdun on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Anyways so i'm going to focus more on these block men of doom, I did a fewwwwww... I was trying to get use to it at first so
    IMG_0340.jpg

    meh.. showing everything, EXCEPT SHAMEFULLY HIDING IT.

    And then I started getting somewhat use to it

    IMG_0341.jpg

    I'm going to keep working on this but right now if anyone can pull out errors in posture, improper movements that shouldn't be possible (Like maybe if something is wrong with the person running to hit with his tiny little racket thing) Or bad habits in posture i'm accidently make it please do tell.

    I'm trying to get down understanding depth more right now which is why you'll see random lines aiming out from limbs from time to time.

    Anywho thiss is why when I go on my drawing habits I decided to only post everything at one time a day because then it would just be up all day long.

    Edit: I'm really happy that i'm starting to do this, thank you godfather for the great advice.

    Loomdun on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Alright so while it doesn't look like much, 2 things I usually vary how I draw, this time since block figures take longer there just is naturally less, but 2 I also began to look over and figure out what is wrong. Definitely glad that I started working on these blocks. While drawing a standing figure is mildly easy any form of movement, basically screws me over, damn you anatomy. Oh whatever. I apply to much emphasis on movement and depth is STILL a issue for me. probably always will be.

    IMG_0355.jpg

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    Also I did a sketch of someone which i'm not too proud of, I placed the eyes to close together, I really need to be more careful, I try to be careful yet I always manage to slip up anyways.

    Loomdun on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    IT'S THAT TIME OF THE DAY! The special time where I once again prove I have absolutely no life, time and time again. CONTINUING OFF FROM FATTY FAT BLOCK FROM YESTERDAY!!! now that page is complete. And I bring you more slightly less crappy but still pretty crappy block men. In order of pages from first to last as usual.

    IMG_0369.jpg

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    and thenn I started finally running out of gesture ideas so I drew myself drawing gestures.

    IMG_0375.jpg

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    WOWW MY LIFE IS ADVENTUROUS YOU CAN TELL!

    Edit: oh right and the lousy 20 minute sketch that turned into a freaking 50 minute error correcting sketch of annoying doom.

    IMG_0368.jpg

    AND THE EYES ARE STILL TO CLOSE.

    Loomdun on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    whent through some "growing" I guess you can call it with these blockman, the last 2 is where i'm currently at with how my form looks. The rest was all just transition during practice. Also I'm starting to really nail down posture and movement. wtf? I'm not bashing on myself for once? Oh also I drew a portrait for the lawls.



    IMG_0386.jpg

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    Me raging on how crappy the figure was
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    Loomdun on
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    GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Okay, well so far you're on the right track. The next step regarding your stick men is to polish up two things: Balance and posture.

    Look at the original drawing I posted. Notice how the torso and pelvis boxes point outward towards the front? There's this zig-zag curve going through the three big masses, and in quite a few of these drawings seem to be missing that. A very easy exercise to do that will help you see this is to take some tracing paper, find some old masterwork drawings and find/trace boxes over the forms on said works. Do this enough and you'll subconsciously recognize the gesture that carries through the spine and the forms it runs through.

    Posture/balance is another thing to work on. It seems to me that a lot of these stickmen could fall over at any moment because they're not balanced enough on the base of their foot. A good tip to remember is that as long as the foot is directly underneath the head the pose will become balanced. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part this theory runs true most of the time.

    I decided to post this response early because i'm going to be extremely busy with art homework during the weekend.

    Godfather on
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    winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited January 2009
    Thats a shit load of drawings the past couple days. Good job.

    winter_combat_knight on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Thanks, The thought of english class fills me with dread and slowed me down a bit today but as usual heres more, and I feel I got the posture down a lot more along with balance.

    IMG_0399.jpg

    ACTION SCENE!! save the block man! :<

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    Me trying to figure out exactly what godfather meant when he was talking just now
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    and then me figuring it out
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    Puniest pelvic thrust ever, the other person is so ashamed..
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    IMG_0404.jpg

    Jogging pose, leaping pose, and oh my god my life is so painful i'm a little bitch pose.

    IMG_0405.jpg

    Loomdun on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    It's the moment absolutely no one's been waiting forrrr. Which is mee posting more stuff! And today we have a new and exciting change. Just kidding. It's only jesters, not only that but a smaller amount to what a rip off what are you paying me for?! I spaced out alot this time while drawing I tend to do that sometimes when I'm thinking on how to figure out how to grasp stuff more.

    IMG_0406.jpg

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    (Landing from a short jump)
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    Loomdun on
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    GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Loomdun, you're missing the point of my last post entirely.

    There's no curve of the spine in these drawings. Every character looks like they have a titanium rod shoved up their ass like they can't relax.

    You seem to be getting the balance down, that's good. But there's no gesture in these box figures. Again, look at the original drawing I posted. Notice how every box form jets outward and inward, in a zig-zag like fashion.

    You're also making your pelvis boxes way too small, and your torso boxes too long and/or large. The pelvis box should be roughly about two thirds the height of the torso box for men, and a little bit shorter and wider regarding women figures.

    I appreciate you doing all of this work. It shows that you're really dedicating yourself. But you need to understand the idea of this before you go all full throttle practicing, otherwise it's like banging your head on a brick wall over and over again where nothing gets done.

    Understand the concept first, then practice. The best way to do this is to take the earlier advice that I said and draw box forms over old masterworks alongside the box forms, and then compare the ones you traced with the ones out of your head. Eventually you'll start to see a connection, but it's absolutely vital that you grasp this concept.

    I'd love to post a draw-over of my example when it comes to my speaking points but I don't own a working copy of Photoshop.

    Godfather on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    So you wanted me to Curve the boxes?

    Edit: I mean I did do what you said with Zig zags making them go in and out atleast I think I did.

    I do so happen to have a book of a old master I'll look over it and see what you mean the entire point of what i'm missing might become obvious then. This is alot for me to take in its only been like 5 days and I'm still trying to put together everything I learned. So I can't instantly get it all right. (because as you saw I had no real understanding of it all I think at the start) and i'll try to make the pelvis bigger next time.

    Loomdun on
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    GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    No, I mean you need to arc the back instead of keeping it straight. Nobody stands like that.

    For example, say I hit you straight in the gut with one of those sweet spinning back kicks they do in muy thai. Your chest and pelvis are going to crunch towards the force of the kick.

    Alternatively, let's say that I hit you again, only instead of the gut I peg you square in that sweet spot between the lower back and the top of the pelvis (a.k.a. the area between the two large box forms). Obviously your torso/back is going to arc backwards towards the kick, much like your pelvis would.

    These are rather extreme examples, but they illustrate the curve of the spine and the shift of the two forms. There is a zig-zag gesture throughout the figure, and it's the easiest to see in the side view example. These boxes have plane shift that revolve entirely around this gesture, and it's the difference between having a believable stance and a robotic, pole-in-the-body one.

    If you really want to understand this do the box forms over masterworks via tracing paper exclusively for a few days to get the idea. The best book that illustrates this idea clearly is Brideman's Complete Guide to Drawing from Life. He illustrates the idea of box forms better than I ever could, and it was a worthy addition to my library.

    There are plenty of examples of box forms and masterworks in which you can trace over. Make sure to do the reading on that section to really grasp the concept.

    EDIT: I actually don't expect you to have a real grasp on this on the first go. In fact, i'm posting more as something that you can look back on and understand later down the line once you've hit that breakthrough point. It's just that this is so important and you seem so dead set on burning through pages of sketchbooks that it would be a real shame to be shooting in the dark like I did over a year ago.

    Once I can get photoshop running i'll try and show you a good example. It's actually quite simple.

    Godfather on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Anyways so i took the book re-drew some, I believe I finally understand (Maybe not fully get) but understand atleast, that last important part to making a figure after re-drawing 10 of his on tracing paper. Then looking over what you showed. I filled a few pages trying to adjust how I fitted in these blocks to something I made rather then copied off to see if I could.

    So something like this?

    IMG_0411.jpg

    Loomdun on
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    GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Yeah, like that. Maybe not that extreme, but the general idea behind the drawing is sound.

    That arc in the back is very important. There's a gesture in the neck as well but for now just work on the plane shifts and arcs for the torsto and pelvis.

    Again, make sure to do the tracing exercises. You don't need to post them here, they're just for your understanding.

    EDIT: Also remember to keep the figure balanced. Right now it looks like he's going to topple backwards.

    Godfather on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    okaiiiiiiiiiiiiii, so muchhhhhhhhhh. All I knew when I was done with human anatomy was how a body looked formed by muscle and bone, all the things I've done was on my own time so I've never gotten this much into observing the body by, combining what i know in anatomy into observing how it would function. I only have like 30 more minutes before I have to sleep, school begins again for me tomorrow. But thanks a ton next time I post results I'll hopefully get it all together.

    Edit: this semester I'm going to have life drawing though (GASP!) and hopefully painting if I get the petition in since the professor knows me. then englishhhhhh. :< I havn't been taking 4 classes because this is my first year in college and I do alot of studying on art which arn't projects so I need to get use to this stuff.

    Loomdun on
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    GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Make sure to pick up a copy of Bridgeman whenever you can. I'll tell you what to read so you can skip to what you need to know.

    Godfather on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    whats a bridgemannn

    Loomdun on
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    GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Godfather wrote: »
    Brideman's Complete Guide to Drawing from Life

    Godfather on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    laaa la laa luuu luuuu leee la leee laa luuu luuuu

    Oh right I showed my teacher my new stuff like my hand drawings and these gestures (hid the older ones in shame) aaaaaaaaannnnnnnd the portrait stuff she whent "wowwweeeeeee" then made funny noises and then I went WOOOO!

    IMG_0413.jpg

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    I dont really like the one on the left
    IMG_0417.jpg

    Loomdun on
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    green-eyesgreen-eyes Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Loomdun wrote: »
    okaiiiiiiiiiiiiii, so muchhhhhhhhhh. All I knew when I was done with human anatomy was how a body looked formed by muscle and bone, all the things I've done was on my own time so I've never gotten this much into observing the body by, combining what i know in anatomy into observing how it would function. I only have like 30 more minutes before I have to sleep, school begins again for me tomorrow. But thanks a ton next time I post results I'll hopefully get it all together.

    Edit: this semester I'm going to have life drawing though (GASP!) and hopefully painting if I get the petition in since the professor knows me. then englishhhhhh. :< I havn't been taking 4 classes because this is my first year in college and I do alot of studying on art which arn't projects so I need to get use to this stuff.

    People poked fun, but i genuinely loved the life drawing aspect of my art qualifications. As a film and drama student now, i LOVE observing people and their behaviour mentally, so being able to physically study humans aswell has given me a very good imagination for characters. Life drawing helps you pick up on little details about people that you would otherwise miss.

    Also, i love your drawing style, especially the image of the man's face at the beginning of this thread!

    green-eyes on
    car.jpg
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    aaaaaaaahhh compliments scare me. I didn't manage to draw much today petitioning for my class, being exhausted by going to a normal sleeping schedule and back to my bus walking routine + being dragged to places and having to leave my sketchbook down for like 5 hours of quite possible TIME TO DRAW. So I have a pathetic amount of stuff all I was able to do was stare at people and watch there joints move about.

    But good grief these things are so complicated, sooo much thinking, I think i'm getting use to them. That is if i'm not doing something wrong again.

    IMG_0418.jpg

    IMG_0419.jpg

    Right one is suppose to be walking but I forgot to fix the left foot to make it imply that. Whatever.
    IMG_0420.jpg

    Loomdun on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    KYANUUUUUUUUUUUUUU, I also did a portrait attempt of someone in real life (it was 30 minutes but I let them move after 5) It was a pathetic drawing, THEY liked it but I obviously made the face flat... I will need to practice more with doing such I guess.

    Edit: Also godfather before you say anything I did realize I had to start bending the waist more along with the torso, the first one shows me not catching on until the 4th gesture. then the rest I begin applying both movement of the waist and the torso along with arms and legs yada yada.


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    Loomdun on
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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Alright so once i start painting, I'm gonna show paintings, Right now I got life drawing and I try to draw in my sketchbook but most of the time class projects will be consuming my time, For now its simple. Merely do 10 gestures for homework (Easy stuffz) But this is what I did with the model in class we did alot more but I picked out parts to show what is what AAAAAAAAH so terrible, I hope I improve more over the semester like I did in the first semester.

    Anyways i'll put time numbers along with the things

    1 minute
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    1 minute
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    1 minute
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    1 minute
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    1 minute
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    5 minutes
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    5 minutes
    IMG_0431.jpg

    I dont know I feel so lame even if it was my first life drawing class I made things so jaggedy. i'm glad I can at least MAKE stuff but that really isn't good enough anymore.

    Edit: It's funny though, my 5 minute drawings look the same if not better then what I posted way back then as a 15 minute

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    GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Five minute gestures are pointless. Don't do them.

    Anything more than a minute is useless.

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    crawdaddiocrawdaddio Tacoma, WARegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited February 2009
    From the look of it, they're part of the life drawing class, in which case not doing them isn't exactly an option; however, they certainly shouldn't be done in the same way as a minute-long gesture.

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    LoomdunLoomdun Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    Teacher assigns random times so I have no control over them. But I mean its 4 hours per class atleast woooo.

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    GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited February 2009
    If it's from the class I guess he can get away with it, but on his own personal time I would strongly recommend staying away from doing this. The point of a gesture is to capture a moment of action as quickly as possible, and no person in their right mind will be standing in the same pose for five minutes in an everyday activity. Fifteen minutes is just unheard of.

    At best you may have somebody standing for thirty seconds before they move on with their lives, and sitting even more so. But the entire point of the exercise is to relay the energy of the figure onto paper as quickly as possible, the subject blissfully unaware that they're being drawn.

    Why anyone would teach a student to do a fifteen minute gesture is beyond me.

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    crawdaddiocrawdaddio Tacoma, WARegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited February 2009
    Like I said, after the one-minute mark, I would just not call it a gesture, and simply call it a pose; could be that's what the teacher meant for it to be, in which case the object of it would transition from gesture to whatever else.

    crawdaddio on
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