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Are we human, or are we [DOODLE]?

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    winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Thanks for the comment Mustang. I'll give that a go. Also, taking your advice (recently and far back) i've been going through those Andrew Loomis books over the last few days. Before that, when drawing a person, i never even considered that there is a horizon line!!!

    winter_combat_knight on
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    desperaterobotsdesperaterobots perth, ausRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Mustang wrote: »
    Y'know WCK, I've been looking at your art over the past few weeks and I think I've nutted out where you might be going wrong.

    I think your just trying to draw to damn fast and get everything down really quickly. Exchanging speed for accuracy can be good in some situations, but I think you might need to slow down a bit and think more about how the shapes fit in a 3 dimensional space. Also you might want to try drawing figures using nothing but cylinders, blocks, balls and cones. Don't forget to use an eraser, a misplaced line can really throw of your eye if your trying to nut out a shape.

    This is what I've been trying to say in his thread. Constructionnnnnnnnn!

    desperaterobots on
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    JohnTWMJohnTWM Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    timetowastepencil002rp3.jpg
    Colored by hand
    Attempts at digital coloring in
    timetowastetv0.jpg
    timetowastebloodtingecagt3.jpg

    JohnTWM on
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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    munch, looking good as always.

    What's the longest sequential you've done so far?

    Like, eight pages. I'm woefully easy to distract, and usually come home from work so tired that I can't muster enough enthusiasm to do anything but doodle.

    Once this little story's done it'll be around ten to twelve pages.

    Munch on
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    the_monarch23the_monarch23 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Damian_Lewis.png

    Damian Lewis as Charlie Crews from the TV show Life.
    Quick pencils at lunch, inked when I got home.

    the_monarch23 on
    "Gott in himmel! Fritz, vee haff named our car after ein lady-garten."
    ~Jeremy Clarkson
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    WastingPenguinsWastingPenguins Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    ololol texture brushes:



    8xizyd.jpg

    WastingPenguins on
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    lyriumlyrium Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It's cute, Wasting Penguins, but i don't like that one curvy vertical stroke in the middle, because it's the only one and it doesn't seem important enough to stand out like that.

    lyrium on
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    winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I really like the green foresty background. Reminds me of the legend of zelda.

    winter_combat_knight on
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    earthwormadamearthwormadam ancient crust Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Thats really good. Even without the texture brushes I would enjoy that.

    earthwormadam on
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    winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Yeah, i think it's more so the colour choices than the texture which makes it interesting.

    winter_combat_knight on
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    GrennGrenn Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Going through old work with the intention of making a new website and getting rid of a lot of my crap...

    Found this little Death guy which got used for some art-zine and I'd completely forgotten about.

    death_col.gif

    Grenn on
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    winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    doodling with water colours

    2z5t9xc.jpg

    16jkat.jpg

    winter_combat_knight on
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    r-jasperr-jasper Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    holy shit WKN you've come a long way with faces (maybe mainly eyes) in a very short time.

    (isn;t it said that if you can acuratly depict the eyes of someone it's bound to have a very strong likeness to the person you were drawing?... or somethign like that. :S )

    r-jasper on
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    MustangMustang Arbiter of Unpopular Opinions Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Try not to line in too much of the lips WCK, just hint at the shape rather than drawing a full outline.

    Mustang on
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    eskobeardeskobeard Registered User new member
    edited November 2008
    Hey guys, I've been lurking around here for a long time. I thought it might be about time I contributed.
    I need some help with a portrait I am drawing for a friend. It is supposed to be of his Grandpa, but the only photo I have of him is a small wallet-size picture. I can't seem to portray much likeness, except for his mustache.

    1z2istu.jpg
    and here is the reference
    im12ky.jpg
    Thanks in advance.

    eskobeard on
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    OllieOllie Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Pretty good, esko! Here's my two cents:

    - the eyes. In the picture he is looking straight at the camera, but in your drawing he is looking upwards slightly. I can see that you're trying to have the irises fit in accurately, but the way you drew the shape of his eyes makes that difficult/impossible. The top of his eyelids curve upwards a little too far, so in order to fit the iris in correctly there, it's up too high and isn't "touching" the bottom lid (in either eye). Bring the top of the eyelid down just a bit, AND bring the bottom eyelid up a little (his left/our right is drooping down too much) and it should fit better.

    - His jawline is a little too square. Round it off a touch. It might help to draw in his neck as well to see how you can fit it all together, since I think the shadow makes it a bit hard to distinguish where jaw ends and neck begins.

    - His hair is too square! The hair in the picture seems more volumeous than what you drew.

    - His nose needs to be *touch* further south. Seems too high up, and that may be because you drew his left/our right ear a little too high as well.

    I like it, overall! Can't wait to see what else you do. :)

    Ollie on
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    winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I think you've done alright so far. I couldn't offer any more that what Ollie did. Your reference is a difficult one because if ya blur your eyes, his cheeks, nose and forehead kinda blend together as one flat tone/shape.

    winter_combat_knight on
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    MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Inkscape shenanigans:
    omnomnom.png

    MKR on
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    TamTam Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Tam on
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    exitexit Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    i wanted to doodle something for thanksgiving and this was basically all i could think of

    thanksgivingjd5.jpg

    (yes i know thanksgiving is over but i got distracted by turkey and battlestar galactica. how could i resist)

    exit on
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    MykonosMykonos Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    wip I just started....not sure what to do with the left arm of his though, still playing around with it

    Untitled-1copy-1.jpg

    Mykonos on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "I was born; six gun in my hand; behind the gun; I make my final stand"~Bad Company
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    winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Mykonos - You should have him resting a big arse sniper rifle between his legs, with his left hand holding it. I know its WIP but i think you can remove a few of those jagged lines on his upper back. They just make it a little confusing. I think this is gonna be a cool pic. Much easier to interperate than your previous ones.

    winter_combat_knight on
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    eskobeardeskobeard Registered User new member
    edited November 2008
    Thanks for the suggestions Ollie. I started over and this is what I've got so far:
    2rcvfgg.jpg
    He looks kinda sad now. I think his head needs widening.

    eskobeard on
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    exitexit Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    ugh i lost track of how many times i tried to save this

    sketchagainagainagainhw4.jpg

    i hate that face but that perspective was giving me such shit. i really need to get a new tiny mirror i can trot around wherevs

    speaking of faces -- mine are always, like, my faces. i have a pain in the ass time drawing a face that doesn't look like the last face i drew which looked like the last face i drew which.. even in figure drawing they were pretty similar between models x__x habitneedtobreakhabitneedtobreakhabitneedtobreak

    exit on
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    winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'm planning on doing a new illustration this weekend, here are some thumbnails i did tonight. Just testing composition and colours. It's going to be based on Peter Pan.

    wb7ud4.jpg

    BTW these are about... 15 mins MAX each.

    winter_combat_knight on
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    sharky tsharky t LondonRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    @ mykonos: latest picture = badass! looking forward to seeing the final result

    sharky t on
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    sharky tsharky t LondonRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    hey guys,
    i'm doin a contest to draw something with the subject "death and the maiden"
    these are my quickly done first designs scanned with a piece of shit scanner

    design2.png
    design1.png

    i personally prefer the first one but i'd like to hear another opinion as to which is better

    sharky t on
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    GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Really botched these two up:

    2008_08251140.jpg

    2008_08251168.jpg

    That last one got completely destroyed; it doesn't exist anymore.

    Godfather on
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    MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    snowman.png

    :whistle:

    MKR on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    sharky t: I like the idea that she's chained to death and that it's inescapable.

    Zombiemambo on
    JKKaAGp.png
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    MykonosMykonos Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    good call on the gun wck, defintely makes more sense where its at now than before, though still playing around with it...that and what he's supposed to be sitting on - I was thinking a stoop until I figured the lighting may be affected. anyways, heres an update, still a wip
    Untitled-1-4.jpg

    Mykonos on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "I was born; six gun in my hand; behind the gun; I make my final stand"~Bad Company
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    winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    sharky t wrote: »
    design1.png

    I like the idea for this one. Maybe bring the idea of the flames from the first into the second. Keep posting them!

    winter_combat_knight on
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    DeeLockDeeLock Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Mild sketch dump

    CCF11062008_00010.jpg

    CCF11062008_00008.jpg

    CCF11182008_00002.jpg

    CCF11062008_00009.jpg

    CCF11182008_00000.jpg

    CCF11132008_00000.jpg

    PS: Love the thread title!

    DeeLock on
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    earthwormadamearthwormadam ancient crust Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I hope I can someday render hands like that...

    earthwormadam on
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    winter_combat_knightwinter_combat_knight Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Nice hands DeeLock. Hands are so damn hard!

    winter_combat_knight on
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    RubberACRubberAC Sidney BC!Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    DeeLock wrote: »
    Mild sketch dump


    I love how I have actually seen you improve immensely over the years, Dee. This stuff is great! Keep at 'er

    RubberAC on
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    DeeLockDeeLock Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Dawwww thanks guys :D

    DeeLock on
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    JohnTWMJohnTWM Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Mykonos wrote: »
    good call on the gun wck, defintely makes more sense where its at now than before, though still playing around with it...that and what he's supposed to be sitting on - I was thinking a stoop until I figured the lighting may be affected. anyways, heres an update, still a wip
    Untitled-1-4.jpg

    Been playing left4dead? That is totally the auto shotty! But yeah this pic is sweet, and you definitely made this one more... to the point I guess, it feels like a drawing of something instead of a bunch of stuff with a drawing somewhere in it! (although I still really like your other stuff even if it doesnt always make sense!)

    JohnTWM on
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    ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Godfather wrote: »

    2008_08251140.jpg

    2008_08251168.jpg

    Maybe it's just my sense of taste, but there is this design element you use that I just really cannot stand and I think it mars the picture every time you use it. That spiky sawblade tooth pattern--It's on the wings and the hair in the first one, and to a lesser extent is present in the design of the curves and teeth of the snake monsters in the second (Are these demonic baleen whales or something?). The design of your Jekyll character or whatever the guy on the right's name is and his face mask is basically one giant clusterfuck of swooshylines. I hate to resurrect the word "swooshylines" with you, but I think that's exactly what they are.
    The design taste is a topic in it's own right, but I think we both can probably agree that you are doing a big disservice to yourself with such monotonous, haphazard looking, "spiky" lines as on the wing and hair in the first picture. Slow down and switch your lines up. Think about the volume and direction and design it with a purpose.

    Scosglen on
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    FugitiveFugitive Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I think the term is "discipline", and I think the designs mostly lack it.

    Like Scos said its all down to personal taste, but I just think "hyper-exaggerated spawn/venom" when I look at it.

    Looking at it more I think the "swooshylines" could probably work, but your hand isn't confident and steady enough to pull it off. There's a lot of shakiness in the lines themselves, I can tell almost exactly where you had to take a breath, lift your pencil off the paper, and reposition your arm to finish a line, and it caused the curve to suddenly "elbow" a little, which causes the whole thing to look messy and unattractive.

    And then it all comes back around to discipline in design principles. You've got classic symptoms of "I want to be able to render this in the cool style that's in my head but have no idea how to pull it off-itis". You accidentally stumble onto some good pieces of the drawing - the sword in the first and the girl's hair in the second aren't ugly - but you have no idea how to apply that style to the rest of the piece in a way that is both not ugly and also harmonizes with the rest of the parts to make a complete whole. Seriously, the female's hair is so voluminous in the second picture, but turns into your now iconic mess of inconsistent, flat scribbles in the first.

    What makes it especially clear that you have no clue about how to uniformly apply your style is the way you draw actual people, things that require a precise knowledge of complex anatomy and three-dimensional forms, but also require a knowledge of how to simplify and emphasize. One would think, given that your style emphasizes contours and fluid shapes, that rendering the human form would follow suit. Instead, it showcases your biggest flaw: you don't draw the whole, you draw piecemeal. Its clear you're still learning how muscles work, and trying to come to grips with the human form. This is fine, every artist has to learn these things. But you're trying to learn them in their scientific form, and simultaneously trying to learn them in the context of your style, which is also a very dire mistake that many developing artists make. It looks like you drew the framework for the characters, then started to carefully draw each of the muscles anatomically accurately, while ignoring whether or not it actually looks good. You try to give the individual bits and pieces the "swooshylines" treatment, but ignore how they play into the overall form. Instead of being fluid and swooshy like the rest of your style then, the characters look odd and lumpy. They have no vibrancy or energy to match the fantastic curves that incessantly swirl around them.

    If we then apply this to the overall piece - lets use picture 2 as an example - and we think of the piece as a body with anatomy and architecture, we can suddenly see the systemic problem that's causing your pictures to fail. Like your rendering of human forms, you seem to have a bit of forethought when it comes to the layout (you've got a very clear, albeit generic "yin and yang" thing going on in this picture) and you're clearly trying to make a unified piece. But like with your human forms, it falls apart when you start to get even remotely specific. What's up with the squares in the background? First of all they're clearly there as an afterthought to soak up space, because something in the back of your head is telling you that you've got to fill that space, but you have no idea what you should actually be putting there. So what you did instead was doodle a bunch of 2-dimensional rectangles of inconsistent size and spacing from each other. It gets the job done, the same way that sticking your finger in a hole in the side of a dam fixes the leak.

    That curve in the background is problematic for a few reasons: Its a tangent with the sword, it doesn't mesh with the Venom-Spawn-eel thing, and I don't know what the hell it is. Given your history of haphazard lines and shapes, I wasn't sure if the curve was supposed to look like it was coming out of the sword. Then I thought maybe it connected to the Venom-eel? Then I settled on the idea that it was simply a poorly thought out structure in the background. In any case, you've got a uniform curve that I expect to emerge on the other side of the baggy-pants-guy, but instead gets replaced by the Venom-eel. This causes another tangent, as the eel is in about the right spot to be connected to the curve, but his own curve doesn't match up, so again it just looks awkward and ugly.

    Finally the biggest problem with the piece is that its just really boring. As I've said, the yin and yang thing is pretty generic, and the piece doesn't do anything to play with it. Both of the Venom-eels stay safely inside the frame completely negating the kind of dynamism that your style is constantly grasping at. Its in perfect profile, which is good for drafting character concepts, but fails at exciting a viewer when its depicting a tense standoff between two people with alien-things sprouting out of them. And finally the whole thing is on a perspective-less picture plane. The feet of the characters are planted on a straight line, and there is no shift in perspective, meaning that the viewer would have to be watching the standoff from miles away, which only further diminishes the drama to the point where I just want to close my browser and take a short nap.

    Now you might feel inclined to do one of two things with this whole wall of text. You could ignore it, or you could take the specific critiques to heart and try to shape these two pictures into the most finely-tuned piece of artistry you've ever crafted. I want to tell you not to bother, and that it would probably be much better to take the third path, one that has been suggested to everyone that has at some point tried to develop themselves by tracing pictures of Spike Spiegel or learning their anatomy from manga.

    Just drop your style for a little bit. You've got a style that is trying to work so far outside of the box, but has so little knowledge of whats actually in the box, that its simply created another box for itself, one that nobody really wants.

    Learn more anatomy. Study more artists. Not just recent artists but classical artists like Rembrandt, Albrecht Durer, da Vinci. Learn not just about how the body looks, but how accomplished artists learned how the body looks, how they trained themselves, which parts they emphasized. Some of the greatest tools that helped develop me as an artist weren't what I learned in drawing classes, but what I learned in art history classes.

    You've got to really bunker down and learn the principles of anatomy and design so your characters aren't so lumpy and your forms aren't so ratty and unattractive. You've got to discipline your arm so you don't have to lift your pencil off of the page so much. There are certain specific critiques you'll be able to get from art forums, such as where tangents are that you might have missed, or how well your color contrasts are working, but right now you're still so early in your development that in a few months time, if you've been practicing, you'll gradually evolve beyond many of your elementary mistakes and be able to spot them much more efficiently than you could with the bureaucracy of public critique. Right now, your drawings are so rough and uninspired that most of the critiques you get aren't going to be nearly as helpful to you as, say, reading some online tutorials about color theory, or design principles. Hell, reading critiques of other artists are going to be just as helpful to you at this point.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't post your stuff on art forums, but know that you will not get any meaningful critiques until you start really honing your craft on your own. Nobody on the internet can sit down and make you learn about how to render 3D forms, or train your eye to understand what makes a form appealing. Keep in mind that every great artist you know, at some point, had to learn all of these things for themselves through personal study, practice, and patience.

    [edit] (Note: By "personal study" I'm not saying "practice like you're the first artist to draw a person", I'm saying read what other artists have observed, in addition to making your own observations)

    Okay so yeah originally my post consisted of the first sentence but I guess I decided I needed to elaborate a little

    Fugitive on
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