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Wii and 'light gun' type games.

fodderboyfodderboy Registered User regular
edited November 2008 in Games and Technology
If this has been covered here, I apologize in advanced.

First off, i love gun games: Time Crisis, House of the Dead, Police Trainer, even the cheesy Area 51 type games. Its pretty much the only type of arcade game i'll plunk quarters in to.

Last year i got my son "Link's Crossbow Training," I thought it would be an easy game or a 6 year old (and the rest of the family) to pick up and play. Well it was easy to hop in and start blasting things, but I find the game infuriating.

I'm not sure if its the wiimotes (i've tried a couple), my sensor bar, a setting or what, but i can never get the targeting precise/quick enough. There is always that millisecond delay when moving the target cursor across the screen. I've noticed it in other wii games, but this is the first that it really affected game play.

For a gun game i need movement to be instant and that slight delay is killing me.

Now I've read review of wii zapper games and i've never heard this issue mentioned. I've also tried pulling something up in google to no avail.

Has anyone else run in to this? or am I alone in this? Did i miss a setting some where? Any input would be appreciated.

Note: I've tried this both on a LCD and a CRT tv.

fodderboy on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    That shouldn't be happening. I would say that you might have an upscale lag issue, but you said you've tried on CRT. I would also say that it's possible that if you have a receiver that might be introducing lag, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Or really, if there is anything intervening between the console and the TV it may introduce lag. If not, ask yourself if the TV itself is producing lag for any possible reason, whether it be because it's higher def than SD and upscaling or deinterlacing, or maybe for other reasons.


    The fact is, there shouldn't be any lag at all for the IR pointer. And indeed, the lightgun shooters on the Wii ( the 1:1 lightgunners like Ghost Squad and House of the Dead 2&3) normally play perfectly well without any lag at all, the 1:1 supporting games functioning exactly as you'd expect a real lightgun to function.


    **** some shooters like Link's CBT have a "slippery reticle" that appears to be lag-like but adjusting sensitivity is all you can do for that. Other shooters like GS and HOTD have no lag particularly when you calibrate them.

    slash000 on
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    elkataselkatas Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Didn't Crossbow Training have that "lazy" reticule? If it did, I wouldn't find it surprising that fodderboy would find it annoying and imprecise. Have you tried other Wii lightgun games like House of the dead? If you did, how did they feel?

    elkatas on
    Hypnotically inclined.
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    DartboyDartboy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    The Wii remote works by reading in IR signals from the sensor bar, not the other way around. Your model of TV should have no affect on it. However, lighting conditions in the room could be causing some interference. If you've got bright lights shining in the room, or some other IR source that could be throwing off what the remote's recieving, you might be getting that problem.

    I've got Umbrella Chronicles and the targetting's fine. There shouldn't be any lag in the movement. One thing to try is simply moving the cursor around on the Wii menu. The pointer there works the same way, and you should be able to tell if you're getting any issues.

    Dartboy on
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    AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Are you running your video connection through a switch or any other components before the TV? Is the TV upscaling the image? Those things can create lag.

    AbsoluteZero on
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    elkataselkatas Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Are you running your video connection through a switch or any other components before the TV? Is the TV upscaling the image? Those things can create lag.

    He did try using CRT, and switches don't create lag that would be that noticiable.

    elkatas on
    Hypnotically inclined.
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    fodderboyfodderboy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Thanks for the input, it looks like it is 'just me,' which gives me hope in fixing this.

    I'm going to take the suggestions/ideas here and go through some testing to see if i can get this figured out.

    fodderboy on
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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Yeah the main thing is to try another shooting sort of game to see if it appears to just be Crossbow Training.

    I'm going to go against most people here and say that there IS slight lag in moving the pointer around; not enough that any game should be affected in a major way, but it's noticeable if you look for it. It isn't as bad as it sounds like you're describing, although you might be extra sensitive. It seems to me that most every game has been designed with the miniscule, inevitible lag in mind, so that they don't require superhuman aiming ability.

    Also I don't remember CT's aiming reticule, but it may make it seem worse if it has one of those "cursor follow" trail effects.

    UncleSporky on
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    RockinXRockinX Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I have that sort of delay when playing TP or Link's CBT. It's kind of annoying, but I still enjoyed CBT.

    TP on Wii, not so much. The GameCube version was superior.

    RockinX on
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    Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I wonder what the delay is...I haven't noticed one myself at all. In fact both Link's Crossbow Training and Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles seem to work perfectly. :|

    Hopefully you get it fixed before House of the Dead: Overkill comes out, since it's the first new game in the series since forever.

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    urahonkyurahonky Resident FF7R hater Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Have you increased the sensitivity on your Wii remotes?

    urahonky on
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    gjaustingjaustin Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    The real issue I had was that the sensor bar seems calibrated for a 40-inch TV.

    I found Umbrella Chronicles (and to a lesser extend Crossbow Training) completely unplayable on a 50+ inch TV.

    gjaustin on
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    urahonkyurahonky Resident FF7R hater Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Really? I own a 50" TV and I have no problems at all playing RE: UC. You just can't place your balls on the TV while playing.

    urahonky on
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    AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    elkatas wrote: »
    Are you running your video connection through a switch or any other components before the TV? Is the TV upscaling the image? Those things can create lag.

    He did try using CRT, and switches don't create lag that would be that noticiable.

    Shitty ones do. I've had some component video switches that have been pretty awful.

    AbsoluteZero on
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    XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I own Link's Crossbow Training, House of the Dead 1&2, Ghost Squad, RE: UC, RE 4, and Twilight Princess and all games point and shoot just fine on my TV (CRT)

    Xaquin on
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    Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    gjaustin wrote: »
    The real issue I had was that the sensor bar seems calibrated for a 40-inch TV.

    I found Umbrella Chronicles (and to a lesser extend Crossbow Training) completely unplayable on a 50+ inch TV.


    I have a 52 inch tv, and I don't have any issues with the remote being responsive and quick....so I'm sure it's not the size of the tv that is your problem.

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    illigillig Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    the wiimote is not precise enough for real shooting games... that's why they have to give you an on-screen reticule

    purchase a real light-gun setup if that's what you're craving...

    illig on
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    LiquidSquidLiquidSquid Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Actually, I found Ghost Squad to be very playable without an on-screen reticle.

    LiquidSquid on
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    DeaconKnowledgeDeaconKnowledge Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Links Crossbow Training is designed for the Zapper, to be shot at the hip. It has definite lag.

    DeaconKnowledge on
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    Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I don't own the zapper, and I have only messed with it a couple of times at a friends house...but honestly, I just like pointing the remote at the screen. My imagination works wonders. :P

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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Dartboy wrote: »
    The Wii remote works by reading in IR signals from the sensor bar, not the other way around. Your model of TV should have no affect on it.

    Incorrect. Upscale lag will produce the image of the reticle at a lag behind where the actual reticle should be on-screen.

    Type of TV matters because upscale causes the console image to lag behind where it should be, including the reticle.

    slash000 on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'm going to go against most people here and say that there IS slight lag in moving the pointer around; not enough that any game should be affected in a major way, but it's noticeable if you look for it.

    I've played House of The Dead 2 with the 1:1 calibration turned on, properly calibrated, with the reticle turned completely off, and played it with a Perfect Shot.

    And it worked perfectly. There was no lag at all

    I also have achieved extremely high scores/accuracy with the reticle turned off in Ghost Squad's training mission where you have to shooting moving targets.



    If there were any lag at all with the reticle, then it would have been nearly impossible for me to have achieved this.


    If there is pointer lag, it's either the TV, something intervening, or the developer did something funky with coding the game. Because there are several games with absolutely no pointer lag at all

    slash000 on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    LInk's Cross Bow training doesn't have "lag" so much as it has a slippery reticle. This is the case with most uncalibrated wii pointer games. It's not 1:1 or even uncalibrated 1:1 like some of the other shooters. However with LCBT if you adjust the sensitivity it helps a lot.


    For example, since the reticle is not calibrated, you can only adjust your sensitivity. There's no 1:1 correlation. So if you aim at a certain place, your reticle will be elsewhere, forcing you to compensate with your aim. This feels like lag, but it is not actual lag. It's just that the reticle is not sticking to where you are pointing.


    I guarantee that Ghost Squad and House of the Dead have absolutely zero lag with the reticles when you play them. Any lag at all in these games would make them virtually unplayable and no fun at all.

    slash000 on
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    Randall_FlaggRandall_Flagg Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    man, I love umbrella chronicles

    it's such a fun game

    Randall_Flagg on
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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    slash000 wrote: »
    I'm going to go against most people here and say that there IS slight lag in moving the pointer around; not enough that any game should be affected in a major way, but it's noticeable if you look for it.

    I've played House of The Dead 2 with the 1:1 calibration turned on, properly calibrated, with the reticle turned completely off, and played it with a Perfect Shot.

    And it worked perfectly. There was no lag at all

    I also have achieved extremely high scores/accuracy with the reticle turned off in Ghost Squad's training mission where you have to shooting moving targets.



    If there were any lag at all with the reticle, then it would have been nearly impossible for me to have achieved this.


    If there is pointer lag, it's either the TV, something intervening, or the developer did something funky with coding the game. Because there are several games with absolutely no pointer lag at all

    The lag I am talking about is the difference between PC games with hardware cursors and software cursors. Both are playable, but the software cursors are typically not spot-on perfect. It's a bit more lag than what it takes for a button press to reach the console, and it's just enough that I can see it on the Wii menus and in shooting games. Again, not detrimental to playing, but I could understand a hypersensitive person being bothered by it.

    UncleSporky on
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    gjaustingjaustin Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Brainiac 8 wrote: »
    gjaustin wrote: »
    The real issue I had was that the sensor bar seems calibrated for a 40-inch TV.

    I found Umbrella Chronicles (and to a lesser extend Crossbow Training) completely unplayable on a 50+ inch TV.


    I have a 52 inch tv, and I don't have any issues with the remote being responsive and quick....so I'm sure it's not the size of the tv that is your problem.

    That wasn't the problem. I had no cursor lag at all and everything moved smoothly.

    The problem is that the cursor would never be where I was pointing.
    slash000 wrote:
    For example, since the reticle is not calibrated, you can only adjust your sensitivity. There's no 1:1 correlation. So if you aim at a certain place, your reticle will be elsewhere, forcing you to compensate with your aim. This feels like lag, but it is not actual lag. It's just that the reticle is not sticking to where you are pointing.

    Once I switched to a 40-inch TV it still wasn't perfect, but it was much, much closer.

    gjaustin on
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    LunkerLunker Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    66874-8.jpg

    Not really OT, but I'd like to take this thread to let people know the Perfect Shot is available for $12.99 at Circuit City. I'm picking mine up at lunch, waiting for Ghost Squad to reach me next week, and I'm planning on having a blast.

    Lunker on
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    PikaPuffPikaPuff Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    When I try to calibrate HotD, if fucks everything up and i just go back to playing it like a mouse pointer.

    When I calibrate, I try to aim at the top right of the screen, and the wiimote goes out of sensor range. it's near impossible for me to aim at all four corners of the screen 1:1 without the wiimote going out of seeing the sensor. if I walk back, the wiimote can't see the sensor bar anymore.

    what's your setup for 1:1? how far away from the sensor bar are you? top/bottom sensor bar? anything else?

    PikaPuff on
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    skdmrklcyskdmrklcy Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Well holy crap!

    I have no solution for you, but this thread brought the fact these games are out on the Wii to my attention.

    I have been trying to better talk myself into a Wii, and the fact I can get light gun games for it seals the deal.

    I never even thought about it for some reason, I have a PS3 and had been looking at Time Crisis but the fact I was only able to get one gun kind of prevented me from going for it. I love these games!!

    I hope you get the issue fixed though that would be aggravating to no end.

    skdmrklcy on
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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    skdmrklcy wrote: »
    Well holy crap!

    I have no solution for you, but this thread brought the fact these games are out on the Wii to my attention.

    I have been trying to better talk myself into a Wii, and the fact I can get light gun games for it seals the deal.

    I never even thought about it for some reason, I have a PS3 and had been looking at Time Crisis but the fact I was only able to get one gun kind of prevented me from going for it. I love these games!!

    I hope you get the issue fixed though that would be aggravating to no end.

    Yeah, they're cool, just so you know on the Wii they are not quite true light gun games, but I have always found them to be good enough.

    In simple terms, normal light gun games have the screen telling the game where it got hit, but the Wii has the controller telling the game where it shot at. This is an important distinction, although you can calibrate it well enough that it's fairly close to 1:1 accuracy. In fact there are at least two light gun games that let you disable the aiming reticle and they work just fine.

    Just know it's hardly the same as an arcade cabinet.

    The light gun games I can think of off the top of my head are:

    Link's Crossbow Training (comes with Zapper gun shell, lots of shooting minigames)
    Umbrella Chronicles (one of the best games on the system)
    Ghost Squad (arcade port, lets you disable the reticle)
    House of the Dead 2&3 (ports, apparently lets you disable the reticle)
    WiiPlay (just one Duck Hunt style minigame)

    A number of FPSs on the system control similarly or even have a light gun sort of mode (CoD World at War). A new House of the Dead is upcoming and it looks amazing.

    UncleSporky on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    PikaPuff wrote: »
    When I try to calibrate HotD, if fucks everything up and i just go back to playing it like a mouse pointer.

    When I calibrate, I try to aim at the top right of the screen, and the wiimote goes out of sensor range. it's near impossible for me to aim at all four corners of the screen 1:1 without the wiimote going out of seeing the sensor. if I walk back, the wiimote can't see the sensor bar anymore.

    what's your setup for 1:1? how far away from the sensor bar are you? top/bottom sensor bar? anything else?

    Yeah, the problem is that you're standing too close to the TV. Which means if you have a really big TV, you have to stand further away.

    If the LEDs are too "dim" for it to see at that distance, then what you should do is go into Wii setup options and maximize the sensor bar sensitivity ( I think 5 is max). I have a 32" tv and stand about 10 feet away and it works fine.

    What size screen TV are you using?

    slash000 on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    In simple terms, normal light gun games have the screen telling the game where it got hit, but the Wii has the controller telling the game where it shot at. This is an important distinction, although you can calibrate it well enough that it's fairly close to 1:1 accuracy. In fact there are at least two light gun games that let you disable the aiming reticle and they work just fine.

    Actually Sporky, lightgun shooters have been using the same tech as in the wiimote for years now :P. Including the arcade games. Virtually no lightgun shooter from the past 5 years uses the "screen telling the game where it got hit" method, they all use the IR sensor method now. The difference is that the arcade shooters have IR lights surrounding the screen rather than just 2 on top or bottom.

    Even the GunCon3 uses the exact same tech as the wii remote, except with more IR lights - it uses 6 like most arcade cabinets (the GC3 uses six, 3 are housed in each of 2 'markers' that go to either side of the TV).

    It is the exact same technology. The only difference is number and position of IR lights (and the developers thus being able to better triangulate the light gun from the multiple IRs, including triangulation to compensate for angle and distance)

    Just know it's hardly the same as an arcade cabinet.

    The tech is identical to that of a modern arcade cabinet, the difference is that modern arcade cabinets have IR lights surrounding the screen, whereas the Wii only has IR lights on a bar above or below the screen.

    slash000 on
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    B:LB:L I've done worse. Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Lunker wrote: »
    66874-8.jpg

    Not really OT, but I'd like to take this thread to let people know the Perfect Shot is available for $12.99 at Circuit City. I'm picking mine up at lunch, waiting for Ghost Squad to reach me next week, and I'm planning on having a blast.

    $9.99 at GameStop.

    B:L on
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    TyrantCowTyrantCow Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Maybe you guys can explain this to me...

    If I use the calibration thing in House of the Dead 2/3 it totally fucks the input. Like, I start it; and the Wii-mote is not recognized, no matter where I point the thing.

    TyrantCow on
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    TyrantCow wrote: »
    Maybe you guys can explain this to me...

    If I use the calibration thing in House of the Dead 2/3 it totally fucks the input. Like, I start it; and the Wii-mote is not recognized, no matter where I point the thing.


    Here's what's happening.


    You go into Calibration. The Calibration screen does not have a cursor show up on screen.

    What you have to do is stand back from the TV. Try to stand back at least 10 feet or more at least for starters. (distance depends on tv screen size)

    Then aim the gun at the corners and pull the trigger. It will flash telling you it worked. If it doesn't, try standing further back.

    The reason that it appears that there's no input is because the wiimote camera cannot see the sensor bar from where you're standing, and so standing further back allows the wiimote camera to get a wider view of the TV+sensor bar on top/below. Once it can see the whole TV and the sensor bar while pointed at the extreme angles, then it will work.

    slash000 on
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    LunkerLunker Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    B:L wrote: »
    Lunker wrote: »
    66874-8.jpg

    Not really OT, but I'd like to take this thread to let people know the Perfect Shot is available for $12.99 at Circuit City. I'm picking mine up at lunch, waiting for Ghost Squad to reach me next week, and I'm planning on having a blast.

    $9.99 at GameStop.

    DAMMIT :x

    Lunker on
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    AnakinOUAnakinOU Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Howsabout the new Nerf game (and more importantly, the gun)? It is any good?

    AnakinOU on
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    elkataselkatas Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    slash000 wrote: »
    If the LEDs are too "dim" for it to see at that distance, then.. not sure what to tell you. I have a 32" tv and stand about 10 feet away and it works fine.

    There are 3rd party sensor bars with stronger leds. From what I have heard, they work pretty well.

    elkatas on
    Hypnotically inclined.
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    slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    elkatas wrote: »
    slash000 wrote: »
    If the LEDs are too "dim" for it to see at that distance, then.. not sure what to tell you. I have a 32" tv and stand about 10 feet away and it works fine.

    There are 3rd party sensor bars with stronger leds. From what I have heard, they work pretty well.




    Now that I think about it, you can also adjust the sensitivity to the Sensor bar LEDs in the Wii setup. You can adjust how much it needs to pick up before detecting the two lights. I recommend anyone with issues regarding standing back far away to maximize the sensor bar LED light detection sensitivity to max (I think it's 5).


    If that fails the 3rd party ones that are brighter certainly ought tto work.

    slash000 on
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    UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    slash000 wrote: »
    In simple terms, normal light gun games have the screen telling the game where it got hit, but the Wii has the controller telling the game where it shot at. This is an important distinction, although you can calibrate it well enough that it's fairly close to 1:1 accuracy. In fact there are at least two light gun games that let you disable the aiming reticle and they work just fine.

    Actually Sporky, lightgun shooters have been using the same tech as in the wiimote for years now :P. Including the arcade games. Virtually no lightgun shooter from the past 5 years uses the "screen telling the game where it got hit" method, they all use the IR sensor method now. The difference is that the arcade shooters have IR lights surrounding the screen rather than just 2 on top or bottom.

    Even the GunCon3 uses the exact same tech as the wii remote, except with more IR lights - it uses 6 like most arcade cabinets (the GC3 uses six, 3 are housed in each of 2 'markers' that go to either side of the TV).

    It is the exact same technology. The only difference is number and position of IR lights (and the developers thus being able to better triangulate the light gun from the multiple IRs, including triangulation to compensate for angle and distance)

    Just know it's hardly the same as an arcade cabinet.

    The tech is identical to that of a modern arcade cabinet, the difference is that modern arcade cabinets have IR lights surrounding the screen, whereas the Wii only has IR lights on a bar above or below the screen.

    Oh that's right, I just can't stop remembering Duck Hunt. :P Still, the Wii isn't quite as perfectly calibrated as most cabinets, which is the main thing I wanted to communicate. Such that most games won't give you the reticle-less option.

    UncleSporky on
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    LBD_NytetraynLBD_Nytetrayn TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Dartboy wrote: »
    The Wii remote works by reading in IR signals from the sensor bar, not the other way around. Your model of TV should have no affect on it. However, lighting conditions in the room could be causing some interference. If you've got bright lights shining in the room, or some other IR source that could be throwing off what the remote's recieving, you might be getting that problem.

    I've got Umbrella Chronicles and the targetting's fine. There shouldn't be any lag in the movement. One thing to try is simply moving the cursor around on the Wii menu. The pointer there works the same way, and you should be able to tell if you're getting any issues.

    Indeed; remember the Christmas right after the Wii came out, and the small buzz about Christmas tree lights interfering with the system?

    I want a new Duck Hunt on Wii. Wii Play notwithstanding. And Hogan's Alley. And Gumshoe. And Wild Gunman.

    Hell with it. I want the old Zapper collection, and throw in Super Scope while you're at it.

    Then get SEGA on bringing a new Virtua Cop game over while Konami revives Lethal Enforcers.

    ...yeah, I'm a little bit of a fan of the genre. Even though I'm not all that good at it.

    LBD_Nytetrayn on
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