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Japanese Anime and American cartoons? J-developers slipping here too?

2

Posts

  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    Not a fan of JLU? Any of the Fox stuff? Venture Bros?

    Aroduc on
  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Or the Spider-man previously mentioned? It has some of the most fluid animation of any cartoon.

    Kyougu on
  • tallgeezetallgeeze Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Not a fan of JLU? Any of the Fox stuff? Venture Bros?

    Yea, but none of that stuff would air on Saturday morning now. I should have clarified that. Saturday morning cartoons haven't been good since the late 90's to early 2000's. For some reason hinting at adult themes is going to ruin children's minds here in the US.

    I think the last good American shows to appear on saturday morning were Batman Beyond and Justice League and those were WB shows. For Fox I think it would have to be X-men or Spiderman.

    As I see it no one on the American side wants to attempt to make a good showanymore. The last bastion of hope was cartoon network and that thing has been run into the ground, imo. I think they have a few CN created(non-Adult swim) shows now, but they are pretty bad compared to what they had.

    Same thing can be said for Nick. That channel was a beast back in the day, but God only knows what's on it now. They have Avatar, which I only found about recently, but I don't even think they air it anymore.

    tallgeeze on
  • FCDFCD Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    From what I can tell, Fox and the CW(formerly the WB) are the only non-cable networks that do Saturday morning animation blocks anymore, or at least any decent programming blocks. One of the big four might do educational pre-school type stuff, though. How the mighty have fallen.

    FCD on
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  • yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    tallgeeze wrote: »
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Not a fan of JLU? Any of the Fox stuff? Venture Bros?

    Yea, but none of that stuff would air on Saturday morning now. I should have clarified that. Saturday morning cartoons haven't been good since the late 90's to early 2000's. For some reason hinting at adult themes is going to ruin children's minds here in the US.

    I think the last good American shows to appear on saturday morning were Batman Beyond and Justice League and those were WB shows. For Fox I think it would have to be X-men or Spiderman.

    As I see it no one on the American side wants to attempt to make a good showanymore. The last bastion of hope was cartoon network and that thing has been run into the ground, imo. I think they have a few CN created(non-Adult swim) shows now, but they are pretty bad compared to what they had.

    Same thing can be said for Nick. That channel was a beast back in the day, but God only knows what's on it now. They have Avatar, which I only found about recently, but I don't even think they air it anymore.

    ...They have a SHITTON of non-AS content, dude. It's not all GOOD, this is true, but it EXISTS.

    yalborap on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    FCD wrote: »
    From what I can tell, Fox and the CW(formerly the WB) are the only non-cable networks that do Saturday morning animation blocks anymore, or at least any decent programming blocks. One of the big four might do educational pre-school type stuff, though. How the mighty have fallen.

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure they've switched to Saturday night. Must be trying to win over Florida voters.

    Scalfin on
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  • PataPata Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    redx wrote: »
    the most recent batman was "The Batman"?


    egad Batman: The Brave and the Bold
    In the series, Batman has superhuman strength and can breathe in space[6].

    ^ Insert footnote text here

    :lol:

    Pata on
    SRWWSig.pngEpisode 5: Mecha-World, Mecha-nisim, Mecha-beasts
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I think anime's Golden Age was the 80's through the 90's. Now the novelty of the whole thing has worn off for me and it makes me kind of angry to see people all over the stuff just because it's anime.

    Zombiemambo on
    JKKaAGp.png
  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    Golden age in what sense? Things you like? Because it's more successful, prolific, and ubiquitous now than ever before and still growing.

    Aroduc on
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Golden age in what sense? Things you like? Because it's more successful, prolific, and ubiquitous now than ever before and still growing.

    Golden Age in the same sense of the comic book's Golden Age. It's when the popularity really exploded and staple series were established. Macross, Evangelion, Gundam, Sailor Moon, Serial Experiments: Lain, Vampire Hunter D...the list goes on.

    However, that being said, to me it was an unpresedented time for anime and I don't think any modern series have exceeded the quality of the anime made during the 70's, 80's and 90's. I like pretty much everything about older anime more than modern anime.

    Zombiemambo on
    JKKaAGp.png
  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2008
    Well, remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap.

    We just have way more access to that 90% now than ever before.

    Part of this is actually killing the industry here (and to be fair, the industry in Japan collapsed* in the early 2000s), because studios in Japan will bundle an A title with a B title and two C titles. So the anime companies had to spend the money to localize shitty B and C titles when they were only making money on the A titles.

    Meanwhile, people watch the C titles and go "All anime sucks" or buy the C titles, get burned, and stop buying. The A titles are available free on the internet so the companies end up losing massive money. (hence why so many localization companies are going belly up these days) A friend of mine who was a big voice at Geneon didn't even get the news that they closed until they cancelled his sessions later in the day.


    * Okay this is actually an interesting situation. Anime got big in the US at the end of the 90s, so a huge amount of money flooded into anime makers in Japan. This fueled part of the bubble in Japan. When the bubble in Japan burst and anime stopped being as profitable there, they kept on creating because they were being funded by importers who picked up everything regardless of how shitty it was. Now that the anime bubble in the US has collapsed, the studios in Japan are feeling the sting twofold, because all their revenue sources are drying up.

    Ideally it will all lead to more sensical creation of shows in the long run, and less crap being exported to the US.

    skyknyt on
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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    It's hip to hate anime! Everything works in cycles, though, so anime may become trendy again ten years from now.

    emnmnme on
  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Golden age in what sense? Things you like? Because it's more successful, prolific, and ubiquitous now than ever before and still growing.

    Golden Age in the same sense of the comic book's Golden Age. It's when the popularity really exploded and staple series were established. Macross, Evangelion, Gundam, Sailor Moon, Serial Experiments: Lain, Vampire Hunter D...the list goes on.

    However, that being said, to me it was an unpresedented time for anime and I don't think any modern series have exceeded the quality of the anime made during the 70's, 80's and 90's. I like pretty much everything about older anime more than modern anime.

    Man, the 70s blew. The 80s had a lot of movies, and they were almost all financial busts and resulted in the industry almost collapsing. Besides that, I can literally count the number of important shows it produced on my fingers. One hand if you remove Gundam from the picture. The 90s had basically nothing at all for the first half (Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z seriously being the only 'new,' to stretch a term, and particularly influential things from that half decade) until Eva came around and kickstarted everything. Well, 1995 all around was an amazing year for anime in general for that matter. Pokemon's inane success a year or so later also helped build the huge youth audience which has grown up and become the amazoginormous young adult otaku market of today.

    Really, about the only similarity between 1980-1995 and 1995-present is that Surise was making Gundam shows during both. So what if important series started in the 80s? Animation studios were going under left and right and the audience wasn't significantly growing. What about that says golden age?

    Aroduc on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    Does anyone else think that Japanese anime is slipping? quality wise?

    For a while, actually.

    Alot of it could be nostalgia though.

    But there's also the issue of popularity. Back in the day, the "great" anime were ported over because they were good. Now that anime is a pretty hot commodity, and it's relatively cheap to produce for another market, we're getting more and more shows with less and less quality.

    Sheep on
    QlBGc.jpg
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I think anime's Golden Age was the 80's through the 90's. Now the novelty of the whole thing has worn off for me and it makes me kind of angry to see people all over the stuff just because it's anime.

    It sounds like you mean 'When I was l337' by 'Golden Age'.

    No?

    poshniallo on
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  • ChenChen Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Matthew wrote: »
    Does anyone else think that Japanese anime is slipping? quality wise?

    I can't think of one new series this year that i'm interested in seeing, and the only western import i'm planning to get is Funi's "Kenichi the Mightiest Disciple" and that ended awhile ago in Japan.
    That has to be one of the worst series I've seen in the last two years quality wise.

    I still enjoyed it for some reason.

    I'm not sure if this says more about us or the industry.

    Chen on
    V0Gug2h.png
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Golden age in what sense? Things you like? Because it's more successful, prolific, and ubiquitous now than ever before and still growing.

    Golden Age in the same sense of the comic book's Golden Age. It's when the popularity really exploded and staple series were established. Macross, Evangelion, Gundam, Sailor Moon, Serial Experiments: Lain, Vampire Hunter D...the list goes on.

    However, that being said, to me it was an unpresedented time for anime and I don't think any modern series have exceeded the quality of the anime made during the 70's, 80's and 90's. I like pretty much everything about older anime more than modern anime.

    Man, the 70s blew. The 80s had a lot of movies, and they were almost all financial busts and resulted in the industry almost collapsing. Besides that, I can literally count the number of important shows it produced on my fingers. One hand if you remove Gundam from the picture. The 90s had basically nothing at all for the first half (Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z seriously being the only 'new,' to stretch a term, and particularly influential things from that half decade) until Eva came around and kickstarted everything. Well, 1995 all around was an amazing year for anime in general for that matter. Pokemon's inane success a year or so later also helped build the huge youth audience which has grown up and become the amazoginormous young adult otaku market of today.

    Really, about the only similarity between 1980-1995 and 1995-present is that Surise was making Gundam shows during both. So what if important series started in the 80s? Animation studios were going under left and right and the audience wasn't significantly growing. What about that says golden age?

    I don't know, I associate the 80s more with the OVA boom. BGC, Megazone, That sorta stuff

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • RaynagaRaynaga Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'm amazed that less people have touched on the Geneon collapse yet. One of the largest companies for bringing over new content going under, taking a lot of its licensing contracts with it, definitely has had an effect on titles available in the marketplace.

    I would also agree with some of the earlier statements in that Western audiences have essentially been working through a backlog. If you think about it, how many REALLY GOOD shows/films come out each year from Western companies? You can usually count them on one hand.

    Does it really make sense that Eastern ones were so much better that they had dozens and dozens of high quality films and series coming out each year? Or are they are similar and have a small amount of good titles each year. The difference is now anime has been brought over long enough and in enough quantity that all the 'great' series and films have been explored. Since the market has 'caught up' with supply in that there's not many good past titles left to expose its on the same cycle as its market of origin: instead of being able to nab six different, awesome series that you've never seen there'll only one or two that are new to you because that's the actual pace of construction for the medium.

    Raynaga on
  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    The Geneon collapse is less important and interesting than it might seem. Their major financial backer pulling the rug out from under them because Geneon pissed them off somehow, and Geneon laid off half their staff because of a proposed merger which then fell through. There's certainly the point that they (and Western anime companies in general) have been on the decline because the Japanese DVD/television model is inane and they're forced to abide by it, but losing half your licenses and then firing a massive chunk of your staff... they were kind of doomed anyway.

    Aroduc on
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Raynaga wrote: »
    I'm amazed that less people have touched on the Geneon collapse yet. One of the largest companies for bringing over new content going under, taking a lot of its licensing contracts with it, definitely has had an effect on titles available in the marketplace.
    Geneon went under because it bought a huge amount of low quality shows for an exorbitant amount of money causing the company that financed to back out of their arrangement.

    So what ended up happening was they had a bunch of titles licensed and no money to actually produce any of them. The last couple days of Geneon's existence was spent trying to form deals with other companies to finance them. This was why no one was really told about it.

    But really the only reason that they went under was because they just picked up too much crap too quickly. People go on about being able to get anime online for free and stuff but honestly it's done nothing but help the industry. What's really been hurting it is companies like Geneon buying terrible shows, doing a half assed job, and cluttering up store shelves with bad products.

    randombattle on
    itsstupidbutidontcare2.gif
    I never asked for this!
  • RaynagaRaynaga Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I think you guys misunderstood me: I wasn't saying the state of the industry killed Geneon, I was saying that Geneon's death is part of why the state of the industry is the way it is right now. There were several titles that were either in the process of release or were on the horizon that are now proving pretty damn difficult to find.

    Raynaga on
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Raynaga wrote: »
    I think you guys misunderstood me: I wasn't saying the state of the industry killed Geneon, I was saying that Geneon's death is part of why the state of the industry is the way it is right now. There were several titles that were either in the process of release or were on the horizon that are now proving pretty damn difficult to find.
    Well not really. Geneon's death was just a part of what happens when the industry gets that kind of mindset.

    randombattle on
    itsstupidbutidontcare2.gif
    I never asked for this!
  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    Raynaga wrote: »
    I think you guys misunderstood me: I wasn't saying the state of the industry killed Geneon, I was saying that Geneon's death is part of why the state of the industry is the way it is right now. There were several titles that were either in the process of release or were on the horizon that are now proving pretty damn difficult to find.
    Well not really. Geneon's death was just a part of what happens when the industry gets that kind of mindset.

    How would that affect anything anyway? At worst, you get less crap. Good series are still going to get licensed. Now we just get fewer bad/niche series licensed.

    Aroduc on
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Raynaga wrote: »
    I think you guys misunderstood me: I wasn't saying the state of the industry killed Geneon, I was saying that Geneon's death is part of why the state of the industry is the way it is right now. There were several titles that were either in the process of release or were on the horizon that are now proving pretty damn difficult to find.
    Well not really. Geneon's death was just a part of what happens when the industry gets that kind of mindset.

    How would that affect anything anyway? At worst, you get less crap. Good series are still going to get licensed. Now we just get fewer bad/niche series licensed.
    It doesn't really affect anything honestly.

    Geneon was doing bad for a while and it was just the nail in the coffin. All the good shows that Geneon had at the time of their collapse were bought up by other companies.

    randombattle on
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    I never asked for this!
  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    Yes, sorry. Was agreeing with you and more responding to the previous post.

    Aroduc on
  • LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    As to the Japanese developer thing mentioned in the OP, it's not just him. Looking at Gamasutra, Japanese developers are saying the same thing and they've been saying it since 2006 or so. The Japanese game industry is feeling creatively stagnant and really, I can't blame them.

    The western industry continues to innovate. It's been some ten years since the creative boom in the Japanese industry that fueled games like Sonic, Street Fighter II, Super Mario Bros, and Final Fantasies 6 and 7. Since then, western developers have created the MMO genre, shattered expectations in the RPG and RTS fields (Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, the Total War and StarCraft series), and for all the sameness of shooters the field of technical innovation belongs to developers like Bungie, id and Epic.

    Now, this isn't to say that Japanese development has completely stagnated. We still have games like Okami, ICO, and Shadow of the Colossus. Weird, inventive games like No More Heroes and Super Mario Galaxy continue to come out. But, by and large, these are the exceptions that prove the rule. The dominance of the JRPG genre leaves many developers feeling powerless as they churn out games that bear little differences from their forebears. There's very much a sense of tradition in Japanese development and, in many ways, it's this sensiblity that holds them back. Games like Assassin's Creed, Fable, and Grand Theft Auto push gameplay in new and itneresting ways and a question has arisen amongst developer circles in Japan. Many big names (including Tomonobu Itagaki) say that Japanese developers could never come up with something like GTA and many are wondering if Japan can reclaim its place as a house of innovation and ideas.

    LibrarianThorne on
  • RaynagaRaynaga Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    ...yeah, you guys are right. I was imagining those titles I WANTED to see, but now can't because they haven't been picked up yet.

    Tip: Saying an action doesn't affect a market because of a subjective view of quality doesn't mean a damn thing. It still affects the market, just not in a way YOU care about.

    "The car industry has been completely unaffected by the discontinuation of the Hummer"
    "Uh....I wanted a Hummer, now I can't get one. Doesn't that affect the market?"
    "HUMMERS SUCK, the *good* cars are still there"

    While that may your opinion, it doesn't negate the fact that the landscape of the market its in has changed.

    In other words I don't give two shits if you think titles that weren't renewed were bad, the fact is a title like Gankutsuou lost its distributor. We can argue WHY it lost that distributor, but saying that the event has no impact is off-base.

    Raynaga on
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    As to the Japanese developer thing mentioned in the OP, it's not just him. Looking at Gamasutra, Japanese developers are saying the same thing and they've been saying it since 2006 or so. The Japanese game industry is feeling creatively stagnant and really, I can't blame them.

    The western industry continues to innovate. It's been some ten years since the creative boom in the Japanese industry that fueled games like Sonic, Street Fighter II, Super Mario Bros, and Final Fantasies 6 and 7. Since then, western developers have created the MMO genre, shattered expectations in the RPG and RTS fields (Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, the Total War and StarCraft series), and for all the sameness of shooters the field of technical innovation belongs to developers like Bungie, id and Epic.

    Now, this isn't to say that Japanese development has completely stagnated. We still have games like Okami, ICO, and Shadow of the Colossus. Weird, inventive games like No More Heroes and Super Mario Galaxy continue to come out. But, by and large, these are the exceptions that prove the rule. The dominance of the JRPG genre leaves many developers feeling powerless as they churn out games that bear little differences from their forebears. There's very much a sense of tradition in Japanese development and, in many ways, it's this sensiblity that holds them back. Games like Assassin's Creed, Fable, and Grand Theft Auto push gameplay in new and itneresting ways and a question has arisen amongst developer circles in Japan. Many big names (including Tomonobu Itagaki) say that Japanese developers could never come up with something like GTA and many are wondering if Japan can reclaim its place as a house of innovation and ideas.

    Well now. I think the argument could be made pretty easily in the other direction. EA (constant sequel pushing, yearly sports titles with little or no difference), the absolute glut of boring shooters, the fascination with pointless "open world" sprawls, etc.

    Itagaki has always had a hate-on for Japanese developers (except Sega). And I'll freely show my own bias by saying that I despise GTA and all it's spawned, I despise console shooters and all they've done to mangle one of my favourite genres, and I found both Fable games to be incredibly boring. Japanese developers innovate in other ways; every JRPG may be as formulaic as the last, but they usually offer some sort of gameplay twist (though often one that isn't needed). The variety you find between most Western shooters is just a selection of slightly different weapons to shoot at a selection of cosmetically different opponents. I may know almost every major plot point in a Tales game before it even hits the shelves, but at least the game is fun to play, which is more than I've ever felt toward Oblivion and it's predecessors.

    Now, I'm not going to completely defend Japanese developers, because they do a lot of things that a dislike, and I find 80% of the games they put out to be uninteresting. But I'd be very disappointed if they decided to adopt more Western ideas.

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  • AroducAroduc regular
    edited November 2008
    Raynaga,
    Yes. It's a shame that things people weren't buying are no longer available. If there was a market for the stuff, it'd be picked up. It has little to do with subjective views on quality, except that how it related to how profitable something was. When something goes from a microcosmic number of sales to none at all, it's hardly statistically relevant to the overall health or status of the industry.

    Librarian,
    Seriously? Those are the examples you choose to give for innovative games? I'm fine with calling Halo, Starcraft, or GTA ver.17 excellent games, but they're about as innovative as an ashtray. Haven't the Wii and DS been hailed as the holy grail of innovation in the past couple years? And "The exception that proves the rule" is not proving a point. It's undermining it.

    Innovation is a crock anyway. Who gives a shit who does something new and creative? Creative shit tends to be rather poorly made and rely on desperately stretching some marginally different gimmick out so that it clumsily lasts at least 10 hours. Things that do well are those that are made well, and creativity is not one of the defining characteristics that goes into a solid game. Innovation happens in small ways over a number of years, not in one blinding flash that immediately transforms the landscape.

    Aroduc on
  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I'd say one of the big reasons why kids today prefer anime over our cartoons is because they can get completely lost in it. For most kids that's all they want in a show, and it's hard to relate to some angsty teenager superhero when you got various ninja kids jumping about, improving themselves with crazy new abilities while guys like spiderman are stuck with the same boring powers.

    Anime-wise, for us it was Dragonball Z; for this generation it's Naruto.

    On the American side it's the same group of characters that have been around for decades, with the same recycled stories with slight alterations, tooled and redisigned for the next generation. That's just fucking lazy man. Seriously, go talk to some of these kids. They like the concept behind our superheroes, but they don't even bother to keep up with the stories or lore because there's something better on the table.

    It's called competition. Start busting out some fresh and original properties and maybe we might win the kids back on our side.

    Godfather on
    0WBv0.png
  • yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Godfather wrote: »
    I'd say one of the big reasons why kids today prefer anime over our cartoons is because they can get completely lost in it. For most kids that's all they want in a show, and it's hard to relate to some angsty teenager superhero when you got various ninja kids jumping about, improving themselves with crazy new abilities while guys like spiderman are stuck with the same boring powers.

    Anime-wise, for us it was Dragonball Z; for this generation it's Naruto.

    On the American side it's the same group of characters that have been around for decades, with the same recycled stories with slight alterations, tooled and redisigned for the next generation. That's just fucking lazy man. Seriously, go talk to some of these kids. They like the concept behind our superheroes, but they don't even bother to keep up with the stories or lore because there's something better on the table.

    It's called competition. Start busting out some fresh and original properties and maybe we might win the kids back on our side.

    Once you really dig, you find some really AWESOME stuff in the b and c lists of the big comic book publishers.

    The problem is, they don't want to push these guys hard and make them SELL, they want to stick with a sure thing, their A-listers.

    yalborap on
  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    yalborap wrote: »
    Godfather wrote: »
    I'd say one of the big reasons why kids today prefer anime over our cartoons is because they can get completely lost in it. For most kids that's all they want in a show, and it's hard to relate to some angsty teenager superhero when you got various ninja kids jumping about, improving themselves with crazy new abilities while guys like spiderman are stuck with the same boring powers.

    Anime-wise, for us it was Dragonball Z; for this generation it's Naruto.

    On the American side it's the same group of characters that have been around for decades, with the same recycled stories with slight alterations, tooled and redisigned for the next generation. That's just fucking lazy man. Seriously, go talk to some of these kids. They like the concept behind our superheroes, but they don't even bother to keep up with the stories or lore because there's something better on the table.

    It's called competition. Start busting out some fresh and original properties and maybe we might win the kids back on our side.

    Once you really dig, you find some really AWESOME stuff in the b and c lists of the big comic book publishers.

    The problem is, they don't want to push these guys hard and make them SELL, they want to stick with a sure thing, their A-listers.

    Exactly.

    There are some phenomenal comics out there (the Flight series comes to mind), but you wouldn't know about it unless you were already in to comics. It's all about what sells, and since Marvel basically owns Diamondhead comic distributor, it's safe to say that there is a monopoly on the market.

    I've had a lenghtly discussion with a comic book artist named Dave Ross, and although i'm not familiar with his works he's been in the industry for quite awhile, mainly working on Daredevil. He says that the suits basically control everything, and do whatever it takes to make a quick buck. That's why 95% of the stories cranked out by Marvel and DC hold no weight, because it's all about the threat of the week/month/year instead of the focus being on a good story. It's absolutely disgusting, and the companies have no one to blame but themselves for their dwinding audience when the kids are getting into manga, strictly because it's catered to them and not some twenty to thirty-year-old core audience. He also said that if it was the other way around we could of had completely original properties, comic book stories with actual endings in mind instead of whoring them out for years to come, and a larger casual following.

    Also the japanese can crank out around eighteen black and white pages a week, compared to the sixteen to twenty two pages a month that we churn out at best. Yes I know we add color to our comics, but for God sakes do we really have to spend an entire month on it, or longer because we constantly miss updates that it's become the standard to do so?

    And people wonder why kids go for manga and anime.

    Godfather on
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  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I think anime's Golden Age was the 80's through the 90's. Now the novelty of the whole thing has worn off for me and it makes me kind of angry to see people all over the stuff just because it's anime.

    It sounds like you mean 'When I was l337' by 'Golden Age'.

    No?

    Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I liked anime before it was cool, so I'm cool. But now that it's all popular I'm leaving it behind because it's mainstream and stupid. Did I mention I make all of my own clothes, because I'm non-conformist? Oh yea, and fuck the government.

    See ya later, sheeple. Keep liking what's popular while I do all of the hard work finding things worth enjoying.

    Zombiemambo on
    JKKaAGp.png
  • SlicerSlicer Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Godfather wrote: »
    yalborap wrote: »
    Godfather wrote: »
    I'd say one of the big reasons why kids today prefer anime over our cartoons is because they can get completely lost in it. For most kids that's all they want in a show, and it's hard to relate to some angsty teenager superhero when you got various ninja kids jumping about, improving themselves with crazy new abilities while guys like spiderman are stuck with the same boring powers.

    Anime-wise, for us it was Dragonball Z; for this generation it's Naruto.

    On the American side it's the same group of characters that have been around for decades, with the same recycled stories with slight alterations, tooled and redisigned for the next generation. That's just fucking lazy man. Seriously, go talk to some of these kids. They like the concept behind our superheroes, but they don't even bother to keep up with the stories or lore because there's something better on the table.

    It's called competition. Start busting out some fresh and original properties and maybe we might win the kids back on our side.

    Once you really dig, you find some really AWESOME stuff in the b and c lists of the big comic book publishers.

    The problem is, they don't want to push these guys hard and make them SELL, they want to stick with a sure thing, their A-listers.

    Exactly.

    There are some phenomenal comics out there (the Flight series comes to mind), but you wouldn't know about it unless you were already in to comics. It's all about what sells, and since Marvel basically owns Diamondhead comic distributor, it's safe to say that there is a monopoly on the market.

    I've had a lenghtly discussion with a comic book artist named Dave Ross, and although i'm not familiar with his works he's been in the industry for quite awhile, mainly working on Daredevil. He says that the suits basically control everything, and do whatever it takes to make a quick buck. That's why 95% of the stories cranked out by Marvel and DC hold no weight, because it's all about the threat of the week/month/year instead of the focus being on a good story. It's absolutely disgusting, and the companies have no one to blame but themselves for their dwinding audience when the kids are getting into manga, strictly because it's catered to them and not some twenty to thirty-year-old core audience. He also said that if it was the other way around we could of had completely original properties, comic book stories with actual endings in mind instead of whoring them out for years to come, and a larger casual following.

    Also the japanese can crank out around eighteen black and white pages a week, compared to the sixteen to twenty two pages a month that we churn out at best. Yes I know we add color to our comics, but for God sakes do we really have to spend an entire month on it, or longer because we constantly miss updates that it's become the standard to do so?

    And people wonder why kids go for manga and anime.

    There's plenty of manga that does the same with series that go on and on forever. Just to ramble off a few, there's Berserk, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach....I could probably go on and on with this, but needless to say there's really no end in sight for many.

    Granted, there's more neverending series in American comics and you certainly have a point there, but it's a problem with popular manga as well.

    Also, Marvel and DC have been experimenting with weekly series. DC had 52/Countdown (ugh)/Trinity, and Marvel's been putting out Amazing Spider-man almost weekly (3 times a month, I believe).

    Slicer on
  • Psycho Internet HawkPsycho Internet Hawk Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Aroduc wrote: »
    Golden age in what sense? Things you like? Because it's more successful, prolific, and ubiquitous now than ever before and still growing.

    Golden Age in the same sense of the comic book's Golden Age. It's when the popularity really exploded and staple series were established. Macross, Evangelion, Gundam, Sailor Moon, Serial Experiments: Lain, Vampire Hunter D...the list goes on.

    However, that being said, to me it was an unpresedented time for anime and I don't think any modern series have exceeded the quality of the anime made during the 70's, 80's and 90's. I like pretty much everything about older anime more than modern anime.

    That "golden age" spans about 25 years. Those anime were just among the first to be localized.

    One thing that nobody can deny is that American animation has become far, far more innovative and interesting visuals-wise. Flapjack and Chowder look like nothing else I can remember ever being on American television, and Venture Bros and Foster's are just really pretty. The look of anime hasn't changed at all, however, besides simply being more streamlined and Avatar pretty much outdoes anime in everything animation-wise anyway.

    Psycho Internet Hawk on
    ezek1t.jpg
  • Psycho Internet HawkPsycho Internet Hawk Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I think anime's Golden Age was the 80's through the 90's. Now the novelty of the whole thing has worn off for me and it makes me kind of angry to see people all over the stuff just because it's anime.

    It sounds like you mean 'When I was l337' by 'Golden Age'.

    No?

    Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I liked anime before it was cool, so I'm cool. But now that it's all popular I'm leaving it behind because it's mainstream and stupid. Did I mention I make all of my own clothes, because I'm non-conformist? Oh yea, and fuck the government.

    See ya later, sheeple. Keep liking what's popular while I do all of the hard work finding things worth enjoying.

    I can't tell if this is entirely sarcasm or just incredibly hipocritical.

    Psycho Internet Hawk on
    ezek1t.jpg
  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Slicer wrote: »
    Godfather wrote: »
    yalborap wrote: »
    Godfather wrote: »
    I'd say one of the big reasons why kids today prefer anime over our cartoons is because they can get completely lost in it. For most kids that's all they want in a show, and it's hard to relate to some angsty teenager superhero when you got various ninja kids jumping about, improving themselves with crazy new abilities while guys like spiderman are stuck with the same boring powers.

    Anime-wise, for us it was Dragonball Z; for this generation it's Naruto.

    On the American side it's the same group of characters that have been around for decades, with the same recycled stories with slight alterations, tooled and redisigned for the next generation. That's just fucking lazy man. Seriously, go talk to some of these kids. They like the concept behind our superheroes, but they don't even bother to keep up with the stories or lore because there's something better on the table.

    It's called competition. Start busting out some fresh and original properties and maybe we might win the kids back on our side.

    Once you really dig, you find some really AWESOME stuff in the b and c lists of the big comic book publishers.

    The problem is, they don't want to push these guys hard and make them SELL, they want to stick with a sure thing, their A-listers.

    Exactly.

    There are some phenomenal comics out there (the Flight series comes to mind), but you wouldn't know about it unless you were already in to comics. It's all about what sells, and since Marvel basically owns Diamondhead comic distributor, it's safe to say that there is a monopoly on the market.

    I've had a lenghtly discussion with a comic book artist named Dave Ross, and although i'm not familiar with his works he's been in the industry for quite awhile, mainly working on Daredevil. He says that the suits basically control everything, and do whatever it takes to make a quick buck. That's why 95% of the stories cranked out by Marvel and DC hold no weight, because it's all about the threat of the week/month/year instead of the focus being on a good story. It's absolutely disgusting, and the companies have no one to blame but themselves for their dwinding audience when the kids are getting into manga, strictly because it's catered to them and not some twenty to thirty-year-old core audience. He also said that if it was the other way around we could of had completely original properties, comic book stories with actual endings in mind instead of whoring them out for years to come, and a larger casual following.

    Also the japanese can crank out around eighteen black and white pages a week, compared to the sixteen to twenty two pages a month that we churn out at best. Yes I know we add color to our comics, but for God sakes do we really have to spend an entire month on it, or longer because we constantly miss updates that it's become the standard to do so?

    And people wonder why kids go for manga and anime.

    There's plenty of manga that does the same with series that go on and on forever. Just to ramble off a few, there's Berserk, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach....I could probably go on and on with this, but needless to say there's really no end in sight for many.

    Granted, there's more neverending series in American comics and you certainly have a point there, but it's a problem with popular manga as well.

    Also, Marvel and DC have been experimenting with weekly series. DC had 52/Countdown (ugh)/Trinity, and Marvel's been putting out Amazing Spider-man almost weekly (3 times a month, I believe).

    While that's true, keep in mind that the creators at least have an ending in mind. Luffy will eventually become the Pirate King. Naruto will become Hokage. The list goes on.

    At least shonen jump has the courtesy to bring in fresh talent instead of bastardizing the same series over and over and over again. Imagine how Dragonball Z would be like if were still pumping out new chapters today.

    So while they can take a while, they eventually end.

    Godfather on
    0WBv0.png
  • yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Godfather wrote: »
    Slicer wrote: »
    Godfather wrote: »
    yalborap wrote: »
    Godfather wrote: »
    I'd say one of the big reasons why kids today prefer anime over our cartoons is because they can get completely lost in it. For most kids that's all they want in a show, and it's hard to relate to some angsty teenager superhero when you got various ninja kids jumping about, improving themselves with crazy new abilities while guys like spiderman are stuck with the same boring powers.

    Anime-wise, for us it was Dragonball Z; for this generation it's Naruto.

    On the American side it's the same group of characters that have been around for decades, with the same recycled stories with slight alterations, tooled and redisigned for the next generation. That's just fucking lazy man. Seriously, go talk to some of these kids. They like the concept behind our superheroes, but they don't even bother to keep up with the stories or lore because there's something better on the table.

    It's called competition. Start busting out some fresh and original properties and maybe we might win the kids back on our side.

    Once you really dig, you find some really AWESOME stuff in the b and c lists of the big comic book publishers.

    The problem is, they don't want to push these guys hard and make them SELL, they want to stick with a sure thing, their A-listers.

    Exactly.

    There are some phenomenal comics out there (the Flight series comes to mind), but you wouldn't know about it unless you were already in to comics. It's all about what sells, and since Marvel basically owns Diamondhead comic distributor, it's safe to say that there is a monopoly on the market.

    I've had a lenghtly discussion with a comic book artist named Dave Ross, and although i'm not familiar with his works he's been in the industry for quite awhile, mainly working on Daredevil. He says that the suits basically control everything, and do whatever it takes to make a quick buck. That's why 95% of the stories cranked out by Marvel and DC hold no weight, because it's all about the threat of the week/month/year instead of the focus being on a good story. It's absolutely disgusting, and the companies have no one to blame but themselves for their dwinding audience when the kids are getting into manga, strictly because it's catered to them and not some twenty to thirty-year-old core audience. He also said that if it was the other way around we could of had completely original properties, comic book stories with actual endings in mind instead of whoring them out for years to come, and a larger casual following.

    Also the japanese can crank out around eighteen black and white pages a week, compared to the sixteen to twenty two pages a month that we churn out at best. Yes I know we add color to our comics, but for God sakes do we really have to spend an entire month on it, or longer because we constantly miss updates that it's become the standard to do so?

    And people wonder why kids go for manga and anime.

    There's plenty of manga that does the same with series that go on and on forever. Just to ramble off a few, there's Berserk, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach....I could probably go on and on with this, but needless to say there's really no end in sight for many.

    Granted, there's more neverending series in American comics and you certainly have a point there, but it's a problem with popular manga as well.

    Also, Marvel and DC have been experimenting with weekly series. DC had 52/Countdown (ugh)/Trinity, and Marvel's been putting out Amazing Spider-man almost weekly (3 times a month, I believe).

    While that's true, keep in mind that the creators at least have an ending in mind. Luffy will eventually become the Pirate King. Naruto will become Hokage. The list goes on.

    At least shonen jump has the courtesy to bring in fresh talent instead of bastardizing the same series over and over and over again. Imagine how Dragonball Z would be like if were still pumping out new chapters today.

    So while they can take a while, they eventually end.

    I think books like Shonen Jump are a big thing to consider. I sure as hell know I'd be more willing to read an interesting new story that's in the book I already get than to buy issue 1 of it and risk getting burned.

    Would the comic industry pull in more people if they went with the same format, expanding each of their A-listers into a book containing all of their stories for that month, plus a few B-listers they think the readers will like, for 8-10 dollars a pop?

    yalborap on
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    poshniallo wrote: »
    I think anime's Golden Age was the 80's through the 90's. Now the novelty of the whole thing has worn off for me and it makes me kind of angry to see people all over the stuff just because it's anime.

    It sounds like you mean 'When I was l337' by 'Golden Age'.

    No?

    Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I liked anime before it was cool, so I'm cool. But now that it's all popular I'm leaving it behind because it's mainstream and stupid. Did I mention I make all of my own clothes, because I'm non-conformist? Oh yea, and fuck the government.

    See ya later, sheeple. Keep liking what's popular while I do all of the hard work finding things worth enjoying.

    I can't tell if this is entirely sarcasm or just incredibly hipocritical.

    Some people will take it as sarcasm and others will take it at face value. Whichever you choose makes no difference to me.

    Zombiemambo on
    JKKaAGp.png
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2008
    yalborap wrote: »
    Godfather wrote: »
    Slicer wrote: »
    Godfather wrote: »
    yalborap wrote: »
    Godfather wrote: »
    I'd say one of the big reasons why kids today prefer anime over our cartoons is because they can get completely lost in it. For most kids that's all they want in a show, and it's hard to relate to some angsty teenager superhero when you got various ninja kids jumping about, improving themselves with crazy new abilities while guys like spiderman are stuck with the same boring powers.

    Anime-wise, for us it was Dragonball Z; for this generation it's Naruto.

    On the American side it's the same group of characters that have been around for decades, with the same recycled stories with slight alterations, tooled and redisigned for the next generation. That's just fucking lazy man. Seriously, go talk to some of these kids. They like the concept behind our superheroes, but they don't even bother to keep up with the stories or lore because there's something better on the table.

    It's called competition. Start busting out some fresh and original properties and maybe we might win the kids back on our side.

    Once you really dig, you find some really AWESOME stuff in the b and c lists of the big comic book publishers.

    The problem is, they don't want to push these guys hard and make them SELL, they want to stick with a sure thing, their A-listers.

    Exactly.

    There are some phenomenal comics out there (the Flight series comes to mind), but you wouldn't know about it unless you were already in to comics. It's all about what sells, and since Marvel basically owns Diamondhead comic distributor, it's safe to say that there is a monopoly on the market.

    I've had a lenghtly discussion with a comic book artist named Dave Ross, and although i'm not familiar with his works he's been in the industry for quite awhile, mainly working on Daredevil. He says that the suits basically control everything, and do whatever it takes to make a quick buck. That's why 95% of the stories cranked out by Marvel and DC hold no weight, because it's all about the threat of the week/month/year instead of the focus being on a good story. It's absolutely disgusting, and the companies have no one to blame but themselves for their dwinding audience when the kids are getting into manga, strictly because it's catered to them and not some twenty to thirty-year-old core audience. He also said that if it was the other way around we could of had completely original properties, comic book stories with actual endings in mind instead of whoring them out for years to come, and a larger casual following.

    Also the japanese can crank out around eighteen black and white pages a week, compared to the sixteen to twenty two pages a month that we churn out at best. Yes I know we add color to our comics, but for God sakes do we really have to spend an entire month on it, or longer because we constantly miss updates that it's become the standard to do so?

    And people wonder why kids go for manga and anime.

    There's plenty of manga that does the same with series that go on and on forever. Just to ramble off a few, there's Berserk, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach....I could probably go on and on with this, but needless to say there's really no end in sight for many.

    Granted, there's more neverending series in American comics and you certainly have a point there, but it's a problem with popular manga as well.

    Also, Marvel and DC have been experimenting with weekly series. DC had 52/Countdown (ugh)/Trinity, and Marvel's been putting out Amazing Spider-man almost weekly (3 times a month, I believe).

    While that's true, keep in mind that the creators at least have an ending in mind. Luffy will eventually become the Pirate King. Naruto will become Hokage. The list goes on.

    At least shonen jump has the courtesy to bring in fresh talent instead of bastardizing the same series over and over and over again. Imagine how Dragonball Z would be like if were still pumping out new chapters today.

    So while they can take a while, they eventually end.

    I think books like Shonen Jump are a big thing to consider. I sure as hell know I'd be more willing to read an interesting new story that's in the book I already get than to buy issue 1 of it and risk getting burned.

    Would the comic industry pull in more people if they went with the same format, expanding each of their A-listers into a book containing all of their stories for that month, plus a few B-listers they think the readers will like, for 8-10 dollars a pop?

    Knowing how American firms operate, they'd make sure that it was the only place to get super-popular character x, and use it as a vehicle to force us to buy a ton of drek.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
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