My view of it is if I play a role, it's a Role Playing Game. I don't count games where my actions do not influence that role.
Oblivion is an RPG, because I determine what kind of character I am.
Zelda is not an RPG because Link is already set in stone.
Whether a game uses numbers for skills, or grades my development by level, or how combat is handled doesn't matter. If I determine who my character is, if I play as that role, then it's an RPG.
I'd still like to note then that by your definition, Oblivion is NOT a role-playing game, because the player skill was much more important than character skill (as evidenced by the fact that you can complete the game on level 1 without using any stupid shortcuts).
Do you understand how leveling in oblivion works?
Yes. If you (the player) take good care and carefully micro-manage your leveling in a gamey-way, you can decrease the difficulty of the game so much, that it stops being fun. Thus, the player skill of micro-management is much more important than the character skill.
So that makes it... not an RPG? Because the player can build his character in a way that makes the game too easy?
Damnit, I guess that means Dungeons and Dragons isn't actually roleplaying.
Did I say that? I did not. I said that the "actual" definition, which I assume you mean the definition from something that is not in any way part of video games, means nothing in regards to trying to redefine the term from the way that is a part of video games.
First-person =/= First-party =/= First-world. BUT KHAVALL THEY ALL HAVE "FIRST" IN THEM ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY THAT THE ACTUAL DEFINITION OF FIRST MEANS NOTHING?
You're still missing the fact that I have actually posted a definition of role-playing as defined by VG and it is different than PnP role-playing.
Also, more generally speaking:
In strategy games you need strategic abilities.
In shooters you need shooting abilities.
In puzzle games you need to be able to solve puzzles.
In platform games you need to be able to navigate platforms with skill.
In racing games you have to race well.
What is it about Final Fantasy 7 that makes it a role-playing game then?
Character skill over player skill is the main factor in the games progression?
I mean, saying "in _ games you need to _ well" works really well when you're using those definitions.
Oh except what about Adventure or Action games.
You need to adventure wellaction well
In RPGs you need to Role-play well. Well then. There are no games in the market today whereby in order to play them you need to role-play well. By any definition of role-playing.
Also what about Gears of War, for instance? It's a shooter, but it doesn't matter how well you can shoot if you can't identify the proper time to take cover and pop out of cover. Guess it's not a real shooter then. It's a cover-taking game.
I'd still like to note then that by your definition, Oblivion is NOT a role-playing game, because the player skill was much more important than character skill (as evidenced by the fact that you can complete the game on level 1 without using any stupid shortcuts).
Do you understand how leveling in oblivion works?
Yes. If you (the player) take good care and carefully micro-manage your leveling in a gamey-way, you can decrease the difficulty of the game so much, that it stops being fun. Thus, the player skill of micro-management is much more important than the character skill.
So that makes it... not an RPG? Because the player can build his character in a way that makes the game too easy?
Damnit, I guess that means Dungeons and Dragons isn't actually roleplaying.
So, what to do with all those games that don't fall into the RPG category? Well, when I was a kid we used to call them by various names.
Dungeon crawler (Might and Magic, Dungeon Master)
Action-adventure (Ultima, Witcher?)
Hack and Slash (Diablo, Oblivion, Nethack (I do believe roguelike is a term regarding presentation rather than gameplay)
Name 10 cRPGs that fit your rules.
I will do you one better and name only the ones that I consider to be good
Fallout
Planescape:Torment
Wasteland(people would call this a squad-based, tactical RPG if it weren't for the fact that you played the role of a group of people.
that game that takes place entirely in your friend's apartment, where you talk to him and his new wife, it has a text parser and 3d graphics
1. The science and art of military command as applied to the overall planning and conduct of warfare
2. A plan of action intended to accomplish a specific goal
3. The art of using similar techniques in politics or business
You kind of need the second definition to play games. The first definition applies to the overall war strategy and not specific battle tactics used in most strategy games.
So you can't come up with 10 examples of cRPGs that fit your rules, from the past 25 years, which included hundreds of self identified RPGS? But you insist that your narrow definition is correct, and everyone else is wrong, and they should invent new names and label their games as such.
Hmmm... how many species of humans that currently live do you know?
Does that make the definition of what a human is any less sensible?
'How many species of humans'? Last I heard there was only one: homo sapiens sapiens. Only your arguments make anything less sensible..
It's true that there is only one species in the Homo genus right now, but it's not Homo sapiens sapiens. It's just Homo sapiens. We originally called ourselves Homo sapiens sapiens because we believed the Neanderthals to be a subspecies of the species sapiens as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. This is no longer the case and they've been moved to their own species and we've been left alone as the sole sapiens species and the second sapiens was dropped.
So, what to do with all those games that don't fall into the RPG category? Well, when I was a kid we used to call them by various names.
Dungeon crawler (Might and Magic, Dungeon Master)
Action-adventure (Ultima, Witcher?)
Hack and Slash (Diablo, Oblivion, Nethack (I do believe roguelike is a term regarding presentation rather than gameplay)
Name 10 cRPGs that fit your rules.
I will do you one better and name only the ones that I consider to be good
Fallout
Planescape:Torment
Wasteland(people would call this a squad-based, tactical RPG if it weren't for the fact that you played the role of a group of people.
that game that takes place entirely in your friend's apartment, where you talk to him and his new wife, it has a text parser and 3d graphics
Darklands
Ultima V
Baulder's Gate
Deus Ex
Arcanum
The Age of Decadence,
Betrayal at Krondor,
Betrayal at Antara,
Avernum,
Geneforge,
the Dark Sun games,
Shin Megami Tensei 3:Nocturne,
The Elder Scrolls 2:Daggerfall.
Ooops, that was more than ten.
:P:whistle:
I would call those RPGs, but aside from Arcanum, Fallout, and maybe PS:T, they all break the guys "rules".
By my definition it's APPLYING that characters skill (aka. role-playing) that matters most.
In Oblivion, it's CHOOSING the skill. You can be a diplomat, thief, whatever in Oblivion- it all boils down to how well you micro-manage your leveling.
You can do that in PnP RPGs. A skill is pointless unless you apply that character skill.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
So, what to do with all those games that don't fall into the RPG category? Well, when I was a kid we used to call them by various names.
Dungeon crawler (Might and Magic, Dungeon Master)
Action-adventure (Ultima, Witcher?)
Hack and Slash (Diablo, Oblivion, Nethack (I do believe roguelike is a term regarding presentation rather than gameplay)
Name 10 cRPGs that fit your rules.
I will do you one better and name only the ones that I consider to be good
Fallout
Planescape:Torment
Wasteland(people would call this a squad-based, tactical RPG if it weren't for the fact that you played the role of a group of people.
that game that takes place entirely in your friend's apartment, where you talk to him and his new wife, it has a text parser and 3d graphics
Darklands
Ultima V
Baulder's Gate
Deus Ex
Arcanum
The Age of Decadence,
Betrayal at Krondor,
Betrayal at Antara,
Avernum,
Geneforge,
the Dark Sun games,
Shin Megami Tensei 3:Nocturne,
The Elder Scrolls 2:Daggerfall.
Ooops, that was more than ten.
:P:whistle:
I would call those RPGs, but aside from Arcanum, Fallout, and maybe PS:T, they all break the guys "rules".
He must have been a very unhappy guy for a very long time.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Sorry for editing that Couscous out, I'm not sure I've expressed myself well. Can we get back to it tomorrow?
Mayday on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited December 2008
I think arguing that an RPG requires a lack of player skill input or something is a little silly. I doubt that you need stats at all to make an RPG to begin with, they merely help in defining what the player can do in interacting with the world. I could see an RPG where it reacted to everything you did, say choosing to side with faction A over factions B, C and D with appropriate results (changes to the world, NPCs reacted differently to you based on this etc). So long as the results were meaningful and the game reacted to how you were playing, in other words your choices had tangible consequences on the gameworld, I would think it a better "RPG" in terms of letting you roleplay a character than most things that purport to be RPGs but are really just adventure games with stats.
I would sooner play Deus Ex over its abysmal sequel because your actions in Deus Ex actually mean something: while in Invisible War you can be a child murdering monster and nobody gives a shit.
I'd still like to note then that by your definition, Oblivion is NOT a role-playing game, because the player skill was much more important than character skill (as evidenced by the fact that you can complete the game on level 1 without using any stupid shortcuts).
Do you understand how leveling in oblivion works?
Yes. If you (the player) take good care and carefully micro-manage your leveling in a gamey-way, you can decrease the difficulty of the game so much, that it stops being fun. Thus, the player skill of micro-management is much more important than the character skill.
So that makes it... not an RPG? Because the player can build his character in a way that makes the game too easy?
Damnit, I guess that means Dungeons and Dragons isn't actually roleplaying.
You can't do the stuff at level 1, though, which you can in Oblivion.
You also can't do that stuff unless your DM is dumb enough to allow it. That, and the DM can adjust encounters on the fly so they're always as difficult as intended.
In RPGs you need to Role-play well. Well then. There are no games in the market today whereby in order to play them you need to role-play well. By any definition of role-playing.
>Pet dog
>Shoot dog
>Shoot dog
-Now, that's not very believable at all. What motivation does your character have to shoot the dog? Traditionally, violence towards animals is associated with a broken home and according to your character sheet you grew up in a well-to-do family.
I would sooner play Deus Ex over its abysmal sequel because your actions in Deus Ex actually mean something: while in Invisible War you can be a child murdering monster and nobody gives a shit.
I played a child murdering monster in the first Deus Ex and nobody gave a shit.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
I think arguing that an RPG requires a lack of player skill input or something is a little silly. I doubt that you need stats at all to make an RPG to begin with, they merely help in defining what the player can do in interacting with the world. I could see an RPG where it reacted to everything you did, say choosing to side with faction A over factions B, C and D with appropriate results (changes to the world, NPCs reacted differently to you based on this etc). So long as the results were meaningful and the game reacted to how you were playing, in other words your choices had tangible consequences on the gameworld, I would think it a better "RPG" in terms of letting you roleplay a character than most things that purport to be RPGs but are really just adventure games with stats.
I would sooner play Deus Ex over its abysmal sequel because your actions in Deus Ex actually mean something: while in Invisible War you can be a child murdering monster and nobody gives a shit.
Yeah.
Basically this is my opinion. I'm terrible with words though.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
A game is not an rpg if it doesn't predominantly feature pink aliens with white polka-dots
Can you name an rpg that doesn't do this?
(I'll tell that you're wrong, because it has no pink aliens with white polka-dots)
So what you're saying is that:
A role-playing game is a game in which gameplay focuses on role-playing
AND
A game is not an rpg if it doesn't predominantly feature pink aliens with white polka-dots
So you're saying that my definition doesn't work there because they players skill in determining the characters skill is the determining factor? Really?
Think about that one for a while. REALLY?!
Yes. That's what I'm saying.
By my definition it's APPLYING that characters skill (aka. role-playing) that matters most.
In Oblivion, it's CHOOSING the skill. You can be a diplomat, thief, whatever in Oblivion- it all boils down to how well you micro-manage your leveling. If you've done it right, you don't have to worry about anything, because every problem presented will be effortlessly solved through combat.
GENTLEMEN, it's 1AM here, I need to go to sleep.
I will return here tomorrow.
.........
Ok, I give up. I can't argue with you if you're going to be this stupid about it. You throw out any argument that disagrees with you by getting so picky about how you think of things that you can justify your definition and only your definition. You're backing up all of your points with your points. "Everything the bible says is true, because the bible says so"
By my definition it's APPLYING that characters skill (aka. role-playing) that matters most.
In Oblivion, it's CHOOSING the skill. You can be a diplomat, thief, whatever in Oblivion- it all boils down to how well you micro-manage your leveling.
You can do that in PnP RPGs. A skill is pointless unless you apply that character skill.
You can't be everything in PnP like you can in Oblivion, though.
Goomba on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I'd still like to note then that by your definition, Oblivion is NOT a role-playing game, because the player skill was much more important than character skill (as evidenced by the fact that you can complete the game on level 1 without using any stupid shortcuts).
Do you understand how leveling in oblivion works?
Yes. If you (the player) take good care and carefully micro-manage your leveling in a gamey-way, you can decrease the difficulty of the game so much, that it stops being fun. Thus, the player skill of micro-management is much more important than the character skill.
So that makes it... not an RPG? Because the player can build his character in a way that makes the game too easy?
Damnit, I guess that means Dungeons and Dragons isn't actually roleplaying.
You are aware Pun Pun, while amusing, is theoretically impossible to actually perform right? Like, 3rd edition DnD has a broken as hell magic system and while Pun Pun is the height of the stupidity you can reach with it, claiming Pun Pun makes Dungeons and Dragons "not roleplaying" is the equivalent to saying typing God mode in Quake makes it not an FPS. It misses the point of what he was trying to say, even though I actually completely disagree with him anyway!
I'd still like to note then that by your definition, Oblivion is NOT a role-playing game, because the player skill was much more important than character skill (as evidenced by the fact that you can complete the game on level 1 without using any stupid shortcuts).
Do you understand how leveling in oblivion works?
Yes. If you (the player) take good care and carefully micro-manage your leveling in a gamey-way, you can decrease the difficulty of the game so much, that it stops being fun. Thus, the player skill of micro-management is much more important than the character skill.
So that makes it... not an RPG? Because the player can build his character in a way that makes the game too easy?
Damnit, I guess that means Dungeons and Dragons isn't actually roleplaying.
You can't do the stuff at level 1, though, which you can in Oblivion.
You also can't do that stuff unless your DM is dumb enough to allow it. That, and the DM can adjust encounters on the fly so they're always as difficult as intended.
So, if you can break the game by building your character in a certain way, Its Not An RPG.
But, if you break the game by building your character a certain way, and someone tells you not to do that, It Is An RPG.
I think arguing that an RPG requires a lack of player skill input or something is a little silly. I doubt that you need stats at all to make an RPG to begin with, they merely help in defining what the player can do in interacting with the world. I could see an RPG where it reacted to everything you did, say choosing to side with faction A over factions B, C and D with appropriate results (changes to the world, NPCs reacted differently to you based on this etc). So long as the results were meaningful and the game reacted to how you were playing, in other words your choices had tangible consequences on the gameworld, I would think it a better "RPG" in terms of letting you roleplay a character than most things that purport to be RPGs but are really just adventure games with stats.
I would sooner play Deus Ex over its abysmal sequel because your actions in Deus Ex actually mean something: while in Invisible War you can be a child murdering monster and nobody gives a shit.
Yeah.
Basically this is my opinion. I'm terrible with words though.
I agree. I think levels and stats are entirely irrelevant, so long as you're allowed to develop your own character.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
So you're saying that my definition doesn't work there because they players skill in determining the characters skill is the determining factor? Really?
Think about that one for a while. REALLY?!
Yes. That's what I'm saying.
By my definition it's APPLYING that characters skill (aka. role-playing) that matters most.
In Oblivion, it's CHOOSING the skill. You can be a diplomat, thief, whatever in Oblivion- it all boils down to how well you micro-manage your leveling. If you've done it right, you don't have to worry about anything, because every problem presented will be effortlessly solved through combat.
GENTLEMEN, it's 1AM here, I need to go to sleep.
I will return here tomorrow.
.........
Ok, I give up. I can't argue with you if you're going to be this stupid about it. You throw out any argument that disagrees with you by getting so picky about how you think of things that you can justify your definition and only your definition. You're backing up all of your points with your points. "Everything the bible says is true, because the bible says so"
I also agree with this. I got this impression from the OP.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I personally abandoned the notion that the term RPG as used in the context of computer games would ever fit the meaning it originally had. To people in general, it really does seem like RPG means the ability to change your character, usually through experience points. If a game is said to have RPG elements that usually means it something like Bioshock, an action game where you modify your character.
Personally I have pondered this point quite a bit. I guess my definition of an RPG in the truest sense of the word, as defined by me, would include these aspects:
You are playing as one character, more specifically one person.
What about final fantasy? Well, unless there is a clearly defined main character that acts as a point of view then I am not really playing the role of anyone, I'm just observing events.
The game involves you in the world.
Again, I should be playing a role. I used to joke in World of Warcraft that a true roleplayer was someone who kept to the roads, rather than crossing over grass and jumping over fences to take the shortest path possible. Whenever I am encouraged to think of the world as real, when the effects my actions have on NPC's in the world feel meaningful to me, that usually means the game is onto something.
Meaningful choices and consequences.
Sorely missing in so many games, and something I feel is really important. If the game does not make me feel like my choices are meaningful, then that will greatly reduce immersion. Like Maydays example, if I steal a guards armor and walk around in it pretending to be a guard in a game, that means I am just LARPing inside the game. If the game allows me to actually join the Guard and perform that duty, then I am really roleplaying.
That's all I've got for now, I might feel a need to extend this later. In my own somewhat elitist definition of the term RPG, the following games are RPG's:
Baldurs Gate (all)
Fallout (all)
Deus Ex
While these aren't:
World of Warcraft
Final Fantasy (all)
Diablo (all)
Of course, by that definition one might almost call several FPS games RPG's. I'll have to think about that.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I would sooner play Deus Ex over its abysmal sequel because your actions in Deus Ex actually mean something: while in Invisible War you can be a child murdering monster and nobody gives a shit.
I played a child murdering monster in the first Deus Ex and nobody gave a shit.
They do actually, more so than in the second game. For example, try attacking people in Unatco at the beginning of Deus Ex.
Compare this to the fact you can slaughter every single NPC you meet in the sequel except in certain bars (and a couple of temples IIRC) without consequence.
Ok, I give up. I can't argue with you if you're going to be this stupid about it. You throw out any argument that disagrees with you by getting so picky about how you think of things that you can justify your definition and only your definition. You're backing up all of your points with your points. "Everything the bible says is true, because the bible says so"
Please allow me to retract that statement as it was not worded well. I'll get back to you on it.
I personally abandoned the notion that the term RPG as used in the context of computer games would ever fit the meaning it originally had. To people in general, it really does seem like RPG means the ability to change your character, usually through experience points. If a game is said to have RPG elements that usually means it something like Bioshock, an action game where you modify your character.
Personally I have pondered this point quite a bit. I guess my definition of an RPG in the truest sense of the word, as defined by me, would include these aspects:
You are playing as one character, more specifically one person.
What about final fantasy? Well, unless there is a clearly defined main character that acts as a point of view then I am not really playing the role of anyone, I'm just observing events.
The game involves you in the world.
Again, I should be playing a role. I used to joke in World of Warcraft that a true roleplayer was someone who kept to the roads, rather than crossing over grass and jumping over fences to take the shortest path possible. Whenever I am encouraged to think of the world as real, when the effects my actions have on NPC's in the world feel meaningful to me, that usually means the game is onto something.
Meaningful choices and consequences.
Sorely missing in so many games, and something I feel is really important. If the game does not make me feel like my choices are meaningful, then that will greatly reduce immersion. Like Maydays example, if I steal a guards armor and walk around in it pretending to be a guard in a game, that means I am just LARPing inside the game. If the game allows me to actually join the Guard and perform that duty, then I am really roleplaying.
That's all I've got for now, I might feel a need to extend this later. In my own somewhat elitist definition of the term RPG, the following games are RPG's:
Baldurs Gate (all)
Fallout (all)
Deus Ex
While these aren't:
World of Warcraft
Final Fantasy (all)
Diablo (all)
Of course, by that definition one might almost call several FPS games RPG's. I'll have to think about that.
Why? Rpg as currently used is just a marketing term. Don't worry about the genre, your definition is fine. Those fps are rpgs. Let the marketeers (musketeers!) worry about how to name them.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
....that you have to level up for it to be an RPG in that guy's eyes? I don't know, I didn't think it was that hard to figure out.
Except he said in the beginning that character development wasn't necessary.
It's pretty hard to figure out when you're trying to make a point about something that was actually contradicted by the person who you think made the point initially that now you're making.
A game is not an rpg if it doesn't predominantly feature pink aliens with white polka-dots
Can you name an rpg that doesn't do this?
(I'll tell that you're wrong, because it has no pink aliens with white polka-dots)
So what you're saying is that:
A role-playing game is a game in which gameplay focuses on role-playing
AND
A game is not an rpg if it doesn't predominantly feature pink aliens with white polka-dots
Are equally accurate definitions?
I'm saying your arbitrary, subjective definiton where you use circular logic as is valid as mine.
....that you have to level up for it to be an RPG in that guy's eyes? I don't know, I didn't think it was that hard to figure out.
Except he said in the beginning that character development wasn't necessary.
It's pretty hard to figure out when you're trying to make a point about something that was actually contradicted by the person who you think made the point initially that now you're making.
Leveling up isn't character development. It's leveling up.
So, what to do with all those games that don't fall into the RPG category? Well, when I was a kid we used to call them by various names.
Dungeon crawler (Might and Magic, Dungeon Master)
Action-adventure (Ultima, Witcher?)
Hack and Slash (Diablo, Oblivion, Nethack (I do believe roguelike is a term regarding presentation rather than gameplay)
Name 10 cRPGs that fit your rules.
I will do you one better and name only the ones that I consider to be good
Fallout
Planescape:Torment
Wasteland(people would call this a squad-based, tactical RPG if it weren't for the fact that you played the role of a group of people.
that game that takes place entirely in your friend's apartment, where you talk to him and his new wife, it has a text parser and 3d graphics
Darklands
Ultima V
Baulder's Gate
Deus Ex
Arcanum
The Age of Decadence,
Betrayal at Krondor,
Betrayal at Antara,
Avernum,
Geneforge,
the Dark Sun games,
Shin Megami Tensei 3:Nocturne,
The Elder Scrolls 2:Daggerfall.
Ooops, that was more than ten.
:P:whistle:
I would call those RPGs, but aside from Arcanum, Fallout, and maybe PS:T, they all break the guys "rules".
I don't see how they break any rules, maybe you are imagining things to win an arguement?
See, they all contain ROLEPLAYING, so, unless you ignored what mayday said in favor of some fucking intangible RPGCodex strawman that has nothing to do with reality, then you need to shut the fuck up.
I'd still like to note then that by your definition, Oblivion is NOT a role-playing game, because the player skill was much more important than character skill (as evidenced by the fact that you can complete the game on level 1 without using any stupid shortcuts).
Do you understand how leveling in oblivion works?
Yes. If you (the player) take good care and carefully micro-manage your leveling in a gamey-way, you can decrease the difficulty of the game so much, that it stops being fun. Thus, the player skill of micro-management is much more important than the character skill.
So that makes it... not an RPG? Because the player can build his character in a way that makes the game too easy?
Damnit, I guess that means Dungeons and Dragons isn't actually roleplaying.
You can't do the stuff at level 1, though, which you can in Oblivion.
You also can't do that stuff unless your DM is dumb enough to allow it. That, and the DM can adjust encounters on the fly so they're always as difficult as intended.
So, if you can break the game by building your character in a certain way, Its Not An RPG.
But, if you break the game by building your character a certain way, and someone tells you not to do that, It Is An RPG.
Wow, these rules make so much sense!
Nope, I'm not arguing either way, which shows how much attention you're paying to the discussion. I'm just shooting down your half-cocked assumption that Pun-Pun is somehow a valid build, which you're using to go after another argument.
....that you have to level up for it to be an RPG in that guy's eyes? I don't know, I didn't think it was that hard to figure out.
Except he said in the beginning that character development wasn't necessary.
It's pretty hard to figure out when you're trying to make a point about something that was actually contradicted by the person who you think made the point initially that now you're making.
Leveling up isn't character development. It's leveling up.
Which he also never said was necessary. And what? Leveling up isn't.... character development.... what?
I'm out of this thread. This is some screwed up shit, let me tell you.
Khavall on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Leveling up isn't.... character development.... what?
Being able to swing your sword for an extra 2 damage isn't always what people define as character development, which can have a distinctly "story" based connotation.
I don't regard my players in DnD as really going through much character development from leveling from 1-3 or whatever. It's the story junctions, where their decisions start to have tangible impacts on the world around them and they begin to realise their role in the ongoing future of the story that is the real character development to me. Swinging your sword slightly better isn't the important part of character development to me.
....that you have to level up for it to be an RPG in that guy's eyes? I don't know, I didn't think it was that hard to figure out.
Except he said in the beginning that character development wasn't necessary.
It's pretty hard to figure out when you're trying to make a point about something that was actually contradicted by the person who you think made the point initially that now you're making.
Leveling up isn't character development. It's leveling up.
Which he also never said was necessary. And what? Leveling up isn't.... character development.... what?
I'm out of this thread. This is some screwed up shit, let me tell you.
And he never said it wasn't. Also, I never leveled up in a game and gained a deeper understanding of my character from it.
Posts
Oblivion is an RPG, because I determine what kind of character I am.
Zelda is not an RPG because Link is already set in stone.
Whether a game uses numbers for skills, or grades my development by level, or how combat is handled doesn't matter. If I determine who my character is, if I play as that role, then it's an RPG.
....what's your point here?
Can you name an rpg that doesn't do this?
(I'll tell that you're wrong, because it has no pink aliens with white polka-dots)
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Character skill over player skill is the main factor in the games progression?
I mean, saying "in _ games you need to _ well" works really well when you're using those definitions.
Oh except what about Adventure or Action games.
You need to adventure well action well
In RPGs you need to Role-play well. Well then. There are no games in the market today whereby in order to play them you need to role-play well. By any definition of role-playing.
Also what about Gears of War, for instance? It's a shooter, but it doesn't matter how well you can shoot if you can't identify the proper time to take cover and pop out of cover. Guess it's not a real shooter then. It's a cover-taking game.
I will return here tomorrow.
I will do you one better and name only the ones that I consider to be good
Fallout
Planescape:Torment
Wasteland(people would call this a squad-based, tactical RPG if it weren't for the fact that you played the role of a group of people.
that game that takes place entirely in your friend's apartment, where you talk to him and his new wife, it has a text parser and 3d graphics
Darklands
Ultima V
Baulder's Gate
Deus Ex
Arcanum
The Age of Decadence,
Betrayal at Krondor,
Betrayal at Antara,
Avernum,
Geneforge,
the Dark Sun games,
Shin Megami Tensei 3:Nocturne,
The Elder Scrolls 2:Daggerfall.
Ooops, that was more than ten.
:P:whistle:
It's true that there is only one species in the Homo genus right now, but it's not Homo sapiens sapiens. It's just Homo sapiens. We originally called ourselves Homo sapiens sapiens because we believed the Neanderthals to be a subspecies of the species sapiens as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. This is no longer the case and they've been moved to their own species and we've been left alone as the sole sapiens species and the second sapiens was dropped.
I would call those RPGs, but aside from Arcanum, Fallout, and maybe PS:T, they all break the guys "rules".
He must have been a very unhappy guy for a very long time.
I would sooner play Deus Ex over its abysmal sequel because your actions in Deus Ex actually mean something: while in Invisible War you can be a child murdering monster and nobody gives a shit.
You also can't do that stuff unless your DM is dumb enough to allow it. That, and the DM can adjust encounters on the fly so they're always as difficult as intended.
>Pet dog
>Shoot dog
>Shoot dog
-Now, that's not very believable at all. What motivation does your character have to shoot the dog? Traditionally, violence towards animals is associated with a broken home and according to your character sheet you grew up in a well-to-do family.
GAME OVER
Yeah.
Basically this is my opinion. I'm terrible with words though.
So what you're saying is that:
A role-playing game is a game in which gameplay focuses on role-playing
AND
A game is not an rpg if it doesn't predominantly feature pink aliens with white polka-dots
Are equally accurate definitions?
.........
Ok, I give up. I can't argue with you if you're going to be this stupid about it. You throw out any argument that disagrees with you by getting so picky about how you think of things that you can justify your definition and only your definition. You're backing up all of your points with your points. "Everything the bible says is true, because the bible says so"
Do black stripes count?
You are aware Pun Pun, while amusing, is theoretically impossible to actually perform right? Like, 3rd edition DnD has a broken as hell magic system and while Pun Pun is the height of the stupidity you can reach with it, claiming Pun Pun makes Dungeons and Dragons "not roleplaying" is the equivalent to saying typing God mode in Quake makes it not an FPS. It misses the point of what he was trying to say, even though I actually completely disagree with him anyway!
So, if you can break the game by building your character in a certain way, Its Not An RPG.
But, if you break the game by building your character a certain way, and someone tells you not to do that, It Is An RPG.
Wow, these rules make so much sense!
I agree. I think levels and stats are entirely irrelevant, so long as you're allowed to develop your own character.
I also agree with this. I got this impression from the OP.
Personally I have pondered this point quite a bit. I guess my definition of an RPG in the truest sense of the word, as defined by me, would include these aspects:
You are playing as one character, more specifically one person.
What about final fantasy? Well, unless there is a clearly defined main character that acts as a point of view then I am not really playing the role of anyone, I'm just observing events.
The game involves you in the world.
Again, I should be playing a role. I used to joke in World of Warcraft that a true roleplayer was someone who kept to the roads, rather than crossing over grass and jumping over fences to take the shortest path possible. Whenever I am encouraged to think of the world as real, when the effects my actions have on NPC's in the world feel meaningful to me, that usually means the game is onto something.
Meaningful choices and consequences.
Sorely missing in so many games, and something I feel is really important. If the game does not make me feel like my choices are meaningful, then that will greatly reduce immersion. Like Maydays example, if I steal a guards armor and walk around in it pretending to be a guard in a game, that means I am just LARPing inside the game. If the game allows me to actually join the Guard and perform that duty, then I am really roleplaying.
That's all I've got for now, I might feel a need to extend this later. In my own somewhat elitist definition of the term RPG, the following games are RPG's:
Baldurs Gate (all)
Fallout (all)
Deus Ex
While these aren't:
World of Warcraft
Final Fantasy (all)
Diablo (all)
Of course, by that definition one might almost call several FPS games RPG's. I'll have to think about that.
They do actually, more so than in the second game. For example, try attacking people in Unatco at the beginning of Deus Ex.
Compare this to the fact you can slaughter every single NPC you meet in the sequel except in certain bars (and a couple of temples IIRC) without consequence.
Please allow me to retract that statement as it was not worded well. I'll get back to you on it.
'night.
Why? Rpg as currently used is just a marketing term. Don't worry about the genre, your definition is fine. Those fps are rpgs. Let the marketeers (musketeers!) worry about how to name them.
Except he said in the beginning that character development wasn't necessary.
It's pretty hard to figure out when you're trying to make a point about something that was actually contradicted by the person who you think made the point initially that now you're making.
I'm saying your arbitrary, subjective definiton where you use circular logic as is valid as mine.
3ds friend code: 2981-6032-4118
I don't see how they break any rules, maybe you are imagining things to win an arguement?
See, they all contain ROLEPLAYING, so, unless you ignored what mayday said in favor of some fucking intangible RPGCodex strawman that has nothing to do with reality, then you need to shut the fuck up.
Nope, I'm not arguing either way, which shows how much attention you're paying to the discussion. I'm just shooting down your half-cocked assumption that Pun-Pun is somehow a valid build, which you're using to go after another argument.
Which he also never said was necessary. And what? Leveling up isn't.... character development.... what?
I'm out of this thread. This is some screwed up shit, let me tell you.
Being able to swing your sword for an extra 2 damage isn't always what people define as character development, which can have a distinctly "story" based connotation.
I don't regard my players in DnD as really going through much character development from leveling from 1-3 or whatever. It's the story junctions, where their decisions start to have tangible impacts on the world around them and they begin to realise their role in the ongoing future of the story that is the real character development to me. Swinging your sword slightly better isn't the important part of character development to me.