Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Oh, morals... girl thread.

GrundlterrorGrundlterror Registered User regular
edited December 2008 in Help / Advice Forum
So I'm on the fence about this one. Theres this girl. First time I met her (about three years ago) I was attracted to her, but found out she was one of my friends girlfriends at the time. Since then they've broken up and started to hate each other. He reportedly even said that she doesn't care who she sleeps with.

Flash forward to two weeks ago. I'm hanging out with the friend (who I see usually about 4 - 5 times a year) at this party and she shows up unexpectedly. They have an awkward reunion. Later I start talking to her, we get drunk. I go with her to my other friends place and we end up fooling around, sleeping together... no sex. In passing we kinda make plans to hang out again to watch a movie.

Word gets around to my friends that I hooked up with her, they're a bunch of chatty bastards but I figured they would keep it quiet because even though they do like to chat it up I figured they wouldn't want this friend to find out about it since even though he said he didn't care. I start to feel bad about the situation, but I figure hey... it's really none of their business and the friend who's ex it is hasn't found out.

Last night went to a different party (we're still trying to organize a time that would be good for both of us to hang out) and a friend of that friend showed up and started grilling me about this girl saying that my dick is gonna fall off and it was a drunken hookup thats the reason they haven't told her ex about me yet and shit. Apparently he went through this routine when another one of our friends hooked up with her too.

So now, I feel bad about it because even though he said that he doesn't care... he might. But it seems like this guy is being overprotective of his friend and since the friend doesn't know he's even saying this shit to me. If I put myself in the guys shoes, I don't think I would mind. I'm not looking for a relationship here.

So, should I go through with it? I've never really been in this kinda situation before. I'm not desperate or anything but I did have a good time with her the other night. If not, how should I break it to her? I'd rather not tell her that I don't want to see her again because it would upset her ex bf... thats not really fair to her is it? I'm in a moral dilemma here!

tl;dr - fooled around with a friends ex, he said he doesnt care but he might. Should I cut off contact with the girl?

steam_sig.png
Grundlterror on
«1

Posts

  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    In all honesty, it completely depends on how good of friends you are with this girl's ex-bf

    Rent on
  • GrundlterrorGrundlterror Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Rent wrote: »
    In all honesty, it completely depends on how good of friends you are with this girl's ex-bf

    Like I said I don't see this guy very often.... but I really do like him, whenever we see each other we end up talking for a good while. I'd say that I'm good enough friends with him that I wouldn't want something like this to put waves in our relationship. So we're thinking that him saying he doesn't care is more of a defense mechanism than an actual truth?

    Grundlterror on
    steam_sig.png
  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Rent wrote: »
    In all honesty, it completely depends on how good of friends you are with this girl's ex-bf

    Like I said I don't see this guy very often.... but I really do like him, whenever we see each other we end up talking for a good while. I'd say that I'm good enough friends with him that I wouldn't want something like this to put waves in our relationship. So we're thinking that him saying he doesn't care is more of a defense mechanism than an actual truth?

    Tell him what you wrote here, that you'd like to see this girl and how he honestly feels about it
    But if you're just gonna bootycall this girl...well....yeah the dude might not like that
    Basically only pursue her if you're after something real, don't just go for the sex

    Rent on
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Like I said I don't see this guy very often.... but I really do like him, whenever we see each other we end up talking for a good while. I'd say that I'm good enough friends with him that I wouldn't want something like this to put waves in our relationship. So we're thinking that him saying he doesn't care is more of a defense mechanism than an actual truth?

    Yes.

    Your relationship with this friend will more than likely not survive a relationship with his ex.

    I don't really see this as a moral issue, though. Your friend is no longer with her, you wouldn't be betraying him by going out with her. It's more a practical question of him vs. her.

    admanb on
  • ShamusShamus Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Regardless of it's just for sex, or something greater, give him a call. Let it come from your mouth, and not from someone else.

    You don't have to explain yourself and what your plans are, but just let him know you're interested in this girl and you want to see what comes from it. If he has a problem with it, then you need to weigh out how important is your friendship is, as infrequent it is, versus your desire to spend time with his ex.

    Shamus on
  • ProPatriaMoriProPatriaMori Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    Well, he said he doesn't care, but that's before you've done this.

    If you continue, he'll find out eventually. So why don't you cut through the uncertainty and find out if he cares. Call him. If he lies to you when it's staring him in the face then that's his damn problem. If he changes his tune, that's useful information to proceed with.

    EDIT: Damn quadruple beated!

    ProPatriaMori on
  • ANTVGM64ANTVGM64 Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    I broke up with my girlfriend and five hours later my best friend was boinking her. Apparently this is okay in most people's eyes.


    Go nuts bucko.

    ANTVGM64 on
  • LailLail Surrey, B.C.Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    ANTVGM64 wrote: »
    I broke up with my girlfriend and five hours later my best friend was boinking her. Apparently this is okay in most people's eyes.

    You have a horrible best friend.

    To OP. Like the others have said, talk to the guy. He'll probably tell you to go for it, whether or not he's actually cool with it.

    Lail on
  • oldsakoldsak Registered User regular
    edited November 2008
    If he says he hates her, he's not over her. Your hooking up with her will probably be painful to him. Which would you rather do, protect his feelings or hook up with her? That being said, there are those who say if they've been broken up long enough then he needs to just get over it. I guess it depends what kind of friend you are and how much this girl means to you.

    oldsak on
  • acidlacedpenguinacidlacedpenguin Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    The answer to your question is hinges entirely on following question:

    has your dick fallen off yet?

    if yes, then cut off contact
    if no, then procede

    acidlacedpenguin on
    GT: Acidboogie PSNid: AcidLacedPenguiN
  • VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Why don't you straight-up ask him how he feels about you possible seeing her again and hanging out with her and maybe possibly exploring something with her?

    Honestly my gut instinct is to tell you not to bother because how rare and unique is this girl anyway that you can't just go and find someone accompanied by less potential drama, but if she's really that special that you would risk pissing off a friend then I don't see why you can't just talk to the guy and ask him what he thinks.

    You don't have to mention that you drunkenly hooked up with her if you don't want to, but it's not a big deal to just ask a dude something. If he flips out over you just asking, then well you can decide how to react accordingly.

    Vivixenne on
    XBOX: NOVADELPHINI | DISCORD: NOVADELPHINI #7387 | TWITTER
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    So I'm on the fence about this one. Theres this girl. First time I met her (about three years ago) I was attracted to her, but found out she was one of my friends girlfriends at the time. Since then they've broken up and started to hate each other. He reportedly even said that she doesn't care who she sleeps with.

    The bolded? Yeah, that's a lie. Note, I'm assuming the italicized is supposed to be a "he" and not a "she."

    At best, this means he doesn't care if she gets into a drunken eight-way with burly bikers. He's still going to care if she sleeps with you, though. Well, rather, he's going to care if you sleep with her.
    ANTVGM64 wrote: »
    I broke up with my girlfriend and five hours later my best friend was boinking her. Apparently this is okay in most people's eyes.


    Go nuts bucko.

    Note the tone in this post? Case in point.



    She's not his property, and if you really like her then go wild. But just know that he's probably not going to be okay with it, and you'd best assume it will damage or (in the medium- to long-term) end you friendship.

    mcdermott on
  • VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Why assume anything instead of just asking the guy? Christ he's a friend that you can approach and talk to, not some anonymous drunken axe-murderer you need to tiptoe around. I don't get why he has to assume that his friend will "probably" or "most likely" feel a certain way when he can just be straight-up with the dude.

    Vivixenne on
    XBOX: NOVADELPHINI | DISCORD: NOVADELPHINI #7387 | TWITTER
  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    Why assume anything instead of just asking the guy? Christ he's a friend that you can approach and talk to, not some anonymous drunken axe-murderer you need to tiptoe around. I don't get why he has to assume that his friend will "probably" or "most likely" feel a certain way when he can just be straight-up with the dude.

    This is a good point

    After my girlfriend dumped me in the worst way possible I honestly didn't care that my friend started going out with her
    More that he didn't even tell me about it
    We are no longer friends

    Rent on
  • Hobbit0815Hobbit0815 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Ask him.
    And remember there's tons of girls, and few good friends. (if he is one.)

    Hobbit0815 on
  • GrundlterrorGrundlterror Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Hobbit0815 wrote: »
    Ask him.
    And remember there's tons of girls, and few good friends. (if he is one.)

    Yeah this is the line of thinking I'm in right now. And the more I think about it the more I realize that she just isn't worth it. Not even worth asking him about.

    So I guess the next question is how exactly to break it to her... I don't want to come off sounding like an asshole but I probably will.

    Grundlterror on
    steam_sig.png
  • VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    "Hey I had fun the other night but I feel like I've led you on a bit, sorry. We can still hang out but I don't think I'm into you that way. Kinda wanted to let you know now instead of later."

    Done.

    Vivixenne on
    XBOX: NOVADELPHINI | DISCORD: NOVADELPHINI #7387 | TWITTER
  • Hobbit0815Hobbit0815 Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    What's wrong with telling her the bro is more important than the ho?

    Heh, just kidding. Really, just tell her you feel it'd hurt him, and you care about him. If she's a bitch, you'll find out reaaaal quick. If not, she'll understand.

    Hobbit0815 on
  • GrundlterrorGrundlterror Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    "Hey I had fun the other night but I feel like I've led you on a bit, sorry. We can still hang out but I don't think I'm into you that way. Kinda wanted to let you know now instead of later."

    Done.

    That sounds perfect.

    Grundlterror on
    steam_sig.png
  • VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    To be honest though that whole "I'll just not date this chick she's not worth it" thing kinda sounds like a copout from actually approaching your friend with this issue. As long as you're not copping out, then let her down easy. If you are, well, grow a pair. :P

    Vivixenne on
    XBOX: NOVADELPHINI | DISCORD: NOVADELPHINI #7387 | TWITTER
  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Hobbit0815 wrote: »
    Ask him.
    And remember there's tons of girls, and few good friends. (if he is one.)

    Yeah this is the line of thinking I'm in right now. And the more I think about it the more I realize that she just isn't worth it. Not even worth asking him about.

    So I guess the next question is how exactly to break it to her... I don't want to come off sounding like an asshole but I probably will.

    You do realise you are avoiding every single chance you get of confrontation.

    First you want to fuck this girl and not tell your friend, because hey, he might be upset, but hangon, if I talk to him that might require a confrontation, and these are scary! Better run away!

    Now you are stuck with this girl that you now don't want to fuck. Maybe if you hide and never talk to her again you can avoid, that sticky situation too.

    Blake T on
  • GrundlterrorGrundlterror Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Vivixenne wrote: »
    To be honest though that whole "I'll just not date this chick she's not worth it" thing kinda sounds like a copout from actually approaching your friend with this issue. As long as you're not copping out, then let her down easy. If you are, well, grow a pair. :P

    As I stated in the OP I really don't have an intention of a relationship. Why (possibly) hurt my friend when I really don't have this intention? My friends have been telling me that its over between them etc etc, but I don't think he would be 100% cool with it. She's not worth it and definitely is not girlfriend material, she cheated on my friend when they were together (I've come to find out) so I definitely would not feel comfortable with that.

    To Blaket - Why cause drama and confrontation in this situation? I had a great time with her that night but I really don't want to be in a relationship with her because of the reasons I mentioned, and I definitely value my friendship with my friend more than one night with this chick. I have no problem letting her down, I just don't want it to turn into a whole drama fest when it really isn't necessary. \

    I understand that I've made some questionable decisions up to this point, but I think I just really needed a good perspective on the situation and a bit of time to think it over.

    Grundlterror on
    steam_sig.png
  • VivixenneVivixenne Remember your training, and we'll get through this just fine. Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I think Blaket was just mentioning that you seem to have a very confrontation-averse personality.

    Thing is, asking a friend how he might feel if you hooked up or dated some chick isn't a confrontation, it's just asking a friend how he might feel if you hooked up or dated some chick.

    If he's a good friend and a rational individual, his reaction would be something along the lines of "yeah man it's cool you go hit that" or "you know I'm not really comfortable with that, sorry dude" and you respond with a "yeah okay just thought I'd check in with you first, thanks/no problem man" and SCENE.

    I understand that you are drama-averse (I am the same), but just talking to a friend about possibly hooking up with or dating an ex is generally not going to turn into an explosive ordeal.

    (Doing it without asking would.)

    Either way, you made your call and it's a good one, so just drop her nicely and politely, and you're done.

    Vivixenne on
    XBOX: NOVADELPHINI | DISCORD: NOVADELPHINI #7387 | TWITTER
  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Look if I was the dude and you went up to me in private and said, "You know your ex? I know you said you wouldn't care if anyone would date her, but I'm thinking of asking her out and want to ask you myself to make sure you are ok with me going out with her. It's ok if you say no though." is ok. If he says yes or no that's fine and say that you'll keep your conversation under your hat.

    He'd have to be a bit of a dick to get offended at that.

    Blake T on
  • meekermeeker Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    And not to mention the fact that you are avoiding telling him when he will most likely find out from your "chatty bastard" friends.

    He deserves to hear from your own mouth, rather than think you have been screwing his ex.

    meeker on
  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    If he hears it from the "chatty bastards", more than likely he'll get a story with parts missing and a lot of spin to make you look like the bad guy. He deserves to hear it straight up, from you, before the chatty bastards tell him. More than likely, if he still has feelings for her, he's not going to be very pleased that you did that, but as far as you know the bastards will tell him you both did it all night long and you were pushing her to do it, which will make him want to kick your ass.

    Tell him yourself.

    JaysonFour on
    steam_sig.png
  • MysstMysst King Monkey of Hedonism IslandRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    It's not his business anymore. Tell him so and then pursue this relationship with this woman if that's what you want.

    Mysst on
    ikbUJdU.jpg
    Twitter Steam Playstation- Mechaphiliac
  • Clint EastwoodClint Eastwood My baby's in there someplace She crawled right inRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    First of all, get some friends who can keep their damn mouths shut.

    More importantly, you should talk to the guy about it.

    Clint Eastwood on
    uekIEp1.png
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Why not have fun with the girl? Guy needs tougher skin and if you and this girl can have fun why worry about a third party she isn't dating? Honestly it's an A to B relationshp so this asshole and his friends need to C their way out of it.

    This girl likes you enough to fuck you, why not enjoy that?

    Preacher on
    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • KyleWPetersonKyleWPeterson Registered User
    edited December 2008
    1) Never, ever, hook up with a friend's ex without permission. It doesn't matter if it's been five weeks or five years.

    2) This girl got on you when without knowing you very well and obviously has a reputation of being somewhat promiscuous. Is this really someone worth trying to start something with?

    KyleWPeterson on
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    1) Never, ever, hook up with a friend's ex without permission. It doesn't matter if it's been five weeks or five years.

    2) This girl got on you when without knowing you very well and obviously has a reputation of being somewhat promiscuous. Is this really someone worth trying to start something with?

    Yes because she is this guys property forever, in fact she should run any future dates by her old boyfriend for fear of hurting his feelings. I swear some of you have the idea because a friend dated a woman that makes her some kind of outcast in the dating pool and you have to get your friends permission. Their relationship is over and if she wants to date/fuck/whatever with you then your friend should be adult enough to acknowledge thats what adults do.

    Preacher on
    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    My "from the personal experience file" goes like this:

    It's okay if everyone's honest and forthright.

    One of my friends is currently married to the girl one of his college roommates lost his virginity to. One of my friends from high school and I both had a relationship with the same girl--awkwardly, we both found out we were still hooking up after our respective break-ups during the same time frame and neither of us told the other because we wanted to avoid an awkward conversation that (in retrospect) was waaaay less awkward than the one we actually had to have. The best part was, six months after we both kicked her to the curb for two-timing us, she got knocked up by a third mutual friend that neither of us knew she was even dating.

    Did our friendships survive? I was the best man at my high school friend's wedding. The other three guys I mentioned in that story were all groomsmen. The trick is being forthright and honest. My best friend and I never had an issue, but it took us a year or so to forgive the third friend--and really I only forgave him because I saw ending up married to our slutty ex-girlfriend as punishment enough.

    SammyF on
  • SmurphSmurph Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    I agree with all the people who said to just talk to him about it. If he's honest with you and tells you he has a problem, then you really know where you stand and that you are choosing between him and the girl (this is most likely the situation). If he beats around the bush and doesn't flat out tell you he is upset, then he needs to learn to handle a situation like a grown man and you are in the position to teach him by banging his ex. If he seems relaxed about it and tells you he does not have a problem with you seeing her, you probably have nothing to worry about.

    Also, how long ago did these two people break up? If it's been more than a year he is past his grace period and she should be fair game.

    Smurph on
  • KyleWPetersonKyleWPeterson Registered User
    edited December 2008
    Preacher wrote: »
    Yes because she is this guys property forever, in fact she should run any future dates by her old boyfriend for fear of hurting his feelings. I swear some of you have the idea because a friend dated a woman that makes her some kind of outcast in the dating pool and you have to get your friends permission. Their relationship is over and if she wants to date/fuck/whatever with you then your friend should be adult enough to acknowledge thats what adults do.
    If you value your friendship with someone at all then why on Earth wouldn't you check with them first? Is it honestly worth it to you to fuck your buddy's ex at the cost of hurting your pal's feelings?

    KyleWPeterson on
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Preacher wrote: »
    Yes because she is this guys property forever, in fact she should run any future dates by her old boyfriend for fear of hurting his feelings. I swear some of you have the idea because a friend dated a woman that makes her some kind of outcast in the dating pool and you have to get your friends permission. Their relationship is over and if she wants to date/fuck/whatever with you then your friend should be adult enough to acknowledge thats what adults do.
    If you value your friendship with someone at all then why on Earth wouldn't you check with them first? Is it honestly worth it to you to fuck your buddy's ex at the cost of hurting your pal's feelings?

    More than anything else, it falls into the category of, "should you make an informed decision, or an uninformed decision?"

    SammyF on
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Preacher wrote: »
    Yes because she is this guys property forever, in fact she should run any future dates by her old boyfriend for fear of hurting his feelings. I swear some of you have the idea because a friend dated a woman that makes her some kind of outcast in the dating pool and you have to get your friends permission. Their relationship is over and if she wants to date/fuck/whatever with you then your friend should be adult enough to acknowledge thats what adults do.
    If you value your friendship with someone at all then why on Earth wouldn't you check with them first? Is it honestly worth it to you to fuck your buddy's ex at the cost of hurting your pal's feelings?

    If a friend of mine couldn't take me dating a former girlfriend of his, then he isn't a friend I want. Women are free to make their own decisions.

    I mean remove the sex aspect from it, do you ask your friend if you can hang with a buddy of his that he no longer likes?

    Preacher on
    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • SmurphSmurph Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Preacher wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Yes because she is this guys property forever, in fact she should run any future dates by her old boyfriend for fear of hurting his feelings. I swear some of you have the idea because a friend dated a woman that makes her some kind of outcast in the dating pool and you have to get your friends permission. Their relationship is over and if she wants to date/fuck/whatever with you then your friend should be adult enough to acknowledge thats what adults do.
    If you value your friendship with someone at all then why on Earth wouldn't you check with them first? Is it honestly worth it to you to fuck your buddy's ex at the cost of hurting your pal's feelings?

    If a friend of mine couldn't take me dating a former girlfriend of his, then he isn't a friend I want. Women are free to make their own decisions.

    I mean remove the sex aspect from it, do you ask your friend if you can hang with a buddy of his that he no longer likes?

    I'm sure you would feel differently if it were your ex. Yes it is ok to date friends exes, but depending on the situation you should consider the consequences. If my girlfriend of 4 years left me today and I hear she is dating my friend next week, I will not be okay with that. If the girl I dated for a month and a half did the same thing, I probably wouldn't care.

    Smurph on
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Smurph wrote: »

    I'm sure you would feel differently if it were your ex. Yes it is ok to date friends exes, but depending on the situation you should consider the consequences. If my girlfriend of 4 years left me today and I hear she is dating my friend next week, I will not be okay with that. If the girl I dated for a month and a half did the same thing, I probably wouldn't care.

    Why does it matter? You aren't dating her? And she moved on to someone else. If your friend was a good guy wouldn't you think that was a good thing?

    Preacher on
    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Preacher wrote: »
    Smurph wrote: »

    I'm sure you would feel differently if it were your ex. Yes it is ok to date friends exes, but depending on the situation you should consider the consequences. If my girlfriend of 4 years left me today and I hear she is dating my friend next week, I will not be okay with that. If the girl I dated for a month and a half did the same thing, I probably wouldn't care.

    Why does it matter? You aren't dating her? And she moved on to someone else. If your friend was a good guy wouldn't you think that was a good thing?

    It implies that
    1) She was or was thinking about leaving you for this friend
    2) He helped caused the breakup for some poon
    3) She was wasting your time when you could've been dating other people
    4) She was dating you out of convenience (I know girls who HAVE to have a guy on their arms, and'll drop their man the instant something better comes along, sometimes ruining years-long relationships)
    That is why it is not okay with a lot of people

    Rent on
  • SmurphSmurph Registered User regular
    edited December 2008
    Preacher wrote: »
    Smurph wrote: »

    I'm sure you would feel differently if it were your ex. Yes it is ok to date friends exes, but depending on the situation you should consider the consequences. If my girlfriend of 4 years left me today and I hear she is dating my friend next week, I will not be okay with that. If the girl I dated for a month and a half did the same thing, I probably wouldn't care.

    Why does it matter? You aren't dating her? And she moved on to someone else. If your friend was a good guy wouldn't you think that was a good thing?

    It's absolutely her right to see whomever she wants to, I shouldn't even be considered in that decision. But, if that person is my friend and wants to remain my friend, I would expect them to at least consider how it would affect me. If these two had a very serious relationship I would expect the guy's friends to allow some sort of grace period for him to get over it before pouncing on her.

    Smurph on
Sign In or Register to comment.