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UPDATE: Car purchased! was: buying my first (used) car, general questions
Rius
Globex CEONobody ever says ItalyRegistered User regular
Globex CEONobody ever says ItalyRegistered User regular
Quick update:
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted in this thread. With your advice, I was able to find and buy a very nice 2008 Charger with 16k miles and a bunch of additional safely features like brake assist (this has already triggered once and it's cool as hell), electronic stability program, traction control, etc etc. Hopefully all that technological crap will help me learn to drive RWD in Chicago in the coming months, lol.
I got a good deal from the dealership too, and last but certainly not least, I absolutely love the car. My dad likes it too
So, I never really needed a car before. Ok, wait, that's total crap.
So, I never really could afford a car before. I suppose I could have gotten a junker, but public transit worked just fine for me. But now I've just turned 27 and a few months ago my job asked me to get my license so I could drive to the corporate headquarters for a meet and greet, and I did. Now I've got my license and about a month's worth of driving experience (my parent's car, my girlfriend's, the rental, etc) and I'm looking to buy my own car.
I pretty much have it narrowed down to two choices. My girlfriend drives a 2002 Taurus which I find comfortable. I recently test drove a 2k3 Taurus and it's basically the same thing. The newer models (2007 I think) feel a lot smaller and weren't comfortable. The older model works for me since it'll be cheaper anyway.
The other choice is what I wound up renting, which is a Dodge Charger. It's roomy on the inside (I'm 6'2" and stocky), comfortable, and super awesome. I am aware of a certain sense of teenage puppy dog love over this car, and aware that it's nowhere near as practical as a Taurus would be. I also live in Chicago, it's just starting to get all snowy and wet, and recognize that a rear wheel drive car might not be the best idea in such conditions. But I love it so much!
I can certainly afford the payments on either car. My credit is good, I would be able to secure a (to me) low interest loan of 6.5% or so over five years on either car from my bank. The payments, even on the Charger, would be 1/8th my net monthly salary, which certainly seems reasonable. So I'm not worried about affording either car itself.
My question is this. Can those of you with more car ownership experience with me (which should be just about everyone) tell me what the real expenses are dealing with car ownership? My most baffling query is about insurance. I have no idea how much insurance payments would cost me on either car, and I don't know about the levels of what sorts of coverage I'd ideally want to have. I also don't want to buy a Charger if I have to replace the $1000 flux capacitor every three months, you know what I mean?
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted in this thread. With your advice, I was able to find and buy a very nice 2008 Charger with 16k miles and a bunch of additional safely features like brake assist (this has already triggered once and it's cool as hell), electronic stability program, traction control, etc etc. Hopefully all that technological crap will help me learn to drive RWD in Chicago in the coming months, lol.
I got a good deal from the dealership too, and last but certainly not least, I absolutely love the car. My dad likes it too
So, I never really needed a car before. Ok, wait, that's total crap.
So, I never really could afford a car before. I suppose I could have gotten a junker, but public transit worked just fine for me. But now I've just turned 27 and a few months ago my job asked me to get my license so I could drive to the corporate headquarters for a meet and greet, and I did. Now I've got my license and about a month's worth of driving experience (my parent's car, my girlfriend's, the rental, etc) and I'm looking to buy my own car.
I pretty much have it narrowed down to two choices. My girlfriend drives a 2002 Taurus which I find comfortable. I recently test drove a 2k3 Taurus and it's basically the same thing. The newer models (2007 I think) feel a lot smaller and weren't comfortable. The older model works for me since it'll be cheaper anyway.
The other choice is what I wound up renting, which is a Dodge Charger. It's roomy on the inside (I'm 6'2" and stocky), comfortable, and super awesome. I am aware of a certain sense of teenage puppy dog love over this car, and aware that it's nowhere near as practical as a Taurus would be. I also live in Chicago, it's just starting to get all snowy and wet, and recognize that a rear wheel drive car might not be the best idea in such conditions. But I love it so much!
I can certainly afford the payments on either car. My credit is good, I would be able to secure a (to me) low interest loan of 6.5% or so over five years on either car from my bank. The payments, even on the Charger, would be 1/8th my net monthly salary, which certainly seems reasonable. So I'm not worried about affording either car itself.
My question is this. Can those of you with more car ownership experience with me (which should be just about everyone) tell me what the real expenses are dealing with car ownership? My most baffling query is about insurance. I have no idea how much insurance payments would cost me on either car, and I don't know about the levels of what sorts of coverage I'd ideally want to have. I also don't want to buy a Charger if I have to replace the $1000 flux capacitor every three months, you know what I mean?
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
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I only bought a car when i needed one. At the moment i don't because my commute is so short.
Insurance wise for a first time driver its going to be expensive. But the costs do go down when you hit certain years in your life (18, 21, 25 etc). But insurance is always worth the cost as it can save a heap of crap and trouble if you do have an accident.
My advice would be not to go into debt over a car. Or if so get a low litre cheaper car, for your first car you don't wanna be getting something that's gonna cost more than it's eventual worth. Especially not at this time in the financial crisis.
1. since you are 27 you will be in the low or lowest risk category for most insurance providers which will make it cheaper.
2. if you buy a new car on a loan, you have to get collision (which costs more, usually doubling the cost of basic insurance) same goes for leasing or almost any other financing option.
3. you can probably get a basic insurance that will cost you between 50-75 a month for just you as a driver. it all depends on your locality the type of car and your driving history, they may charge you more based on the amount of time you've had your license. if you get collision + basic i would expect between 100-150/ mo.
about cars.
1. the ford taurus used to be unreliable at an age of 7-10 years (not sure about now thoug) so it might be worth it to make sure before you buy that it wont need an extra 1k worth of repair in 2 years.
2. the newer ford fusion has an AWD v6 if you are worried about the snow. in general subarus are roomy and most come with AWD standard, even the older models.
3. if this is your first car, buy used and buy cheaper. you will probably get into an accident or do some kind of damage to your car with your limited driving history. if i were you, i would probably hold off on buying a car until i had more than a month of experience.
here's my insight:
-The V8 Hemi is FUUUUUUUUN... but it also guzzles gas.. if gas goes back to the $4/gal range you'll be sorry if you have to use this car as a daily driver
-RWD is a bit more challenging in winter, but the car has stability control which basically eliminates wheel spin... add snow tires for winter and you'll be able to get anywhere
-Dodges have a lifetime powertrain warranty now... 3yr/36K mi warranty on everything else... pretty good IMHO
-Chrysler is up shit creek financially... so they're giving all sorts of incentives, rebates, and low APR loans... i'd be surprised if you couldn't finagle several thousand in rebates AND a 0% APR on a new purchase
-Dodges have absolutely shit resale value... your $26K car will be worth less than a cup of coffee the moment you drive it off the dealer lot (ok, that's a slight exaggeration... but not by much)
Now here's some of my wisdom about cars overall... you're basing your car purchase decision on driving two cars... a decent charger, and a completely mediocre taurus... test drive some others (especially imports) to get an idea of what else is out there
IMHO, if you're buying new, you should buy a japanese import (Honda, Toyota, and to a lesser extent Nissan or Subaru) since these brands have much better resale value when you decide to trade in
If you're buying used, go with a late model domestic since the quality is *almost* as good as the imports, and you're not paying the import used-car premium.
Finally, call an insurance agent to get some quotes for insurance... tell them that the car will be financed (as financing companies require a higher level of coverage)... insurance rates vary widely depending on how likely a car is to be stolen, whether it's "sporty", etc. etc.
Chrysler being up shit creek wouldn't mean much if I were buying a used car, right? edit: I mean in terms of discounts.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
1. I would avoid the Charger. I think they are ugly as sin personally, but you may have a different opinion. Rear-wheel drive is a huge minus for driving in the snow (doubly so since you are a new driver with zero experience in wintry driving - it will fucking suck, trust me.) Also, the Charger has several engine choices, each with their downsides I think. The V8 is going to get shitty gas mileage (and gas prices WILL go up I can promise you that.) The smaller V6 is not going to be nearly as much fun to drive.
2. The talk about reliability issues with American cars is largely a myth now. They have gotten much better since the early 90s which is when the real horror stories are from. I am not the biggest fan of American cars, I don't like the interiors that much or the floaty steering/handling. Reliability is much better than it used to be though.
3. I would buy a used car from either a manufacturer dealership or from a used car place in your area that people trust. Personally I would go for a Toyota or Honda or Subaru from around 2005 if you like them and can afford it. Keep in mind that if you get an AWD Subaru you are sacrificing gas mileage because the car is that much heavier from the extra drivetrain parts.
4. Drive a bunch of different cars and see what you like.
5. Buy used. Buy used buy used! Personally I think buying new is a waste of money.
Also, I forgot to ask how much you will be driving this car. Right now you don't have one, so will you continue to take transit to work?
I would most likely continue to take public transit to work because it is cheaper and can actually be more time efficient. A car would mostly be for after work errands, things like grocery shopping, going over to my girlfriend's place, etc. Going to the gym, whatever.
Talking about specifics for a moment.
I'm curious about the "Auto Check" vehicle history.
http://autocheck.dealer.com/cgi-bin/autocheck.cgi?dealerid=midwaykia&vin=2B3LA43R57H740419
How detailed is this (free) Auto Check going to be compared to something like CarFax, which I've heard about but haven't tried out yet? If I recall correctly, Auto Check free links are also offered on CarMax's website for individual cars.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
You won't get any discounts from Chrysler while buying a used car, but most anecdotes report the used car market being pretty slow now as well. Especially since it's close to year-end, a lot of car lots are going to want to purge any inventory they can; if you're a decent negotiator, you should be able to do fairly well since you won't have an old junker to trade-in.
For comparison, last month I got a dealer to knock 10% off the sticker price on a used 2004 Toyota when I went in without a trade-in. I'd expect you should be able to get a similar deal.
I assume they salt the streets a good portion of the year in Chicago, so do check out for rust. Most manufacturers cover rust for decent length period (like 8yr/100K miles), but know this is for "perforation," so a hole has to rust through the frame for them to grant a claim.
Eventhough it won't be cheap, I might look at a late model used imprezza (non-turbo) if I were in your situation, but I'm down with the additional maitenance a subie tends to need. Also AWD just gets you moving on snow/ice better, it's just as shitty stopping as a 2WD vehicle.
The AutoCheck things looks decent, have only used CarFax myself though. Those "independent odometer readings" are probably taken during oil/oil filter changes.
I checked the website for a free quote. A 2007 dodge charger under my circumstances with the following insurance levels (far far beyond Illinois' minimum coverage requirements (20k/40k BI and 15k PD));
Bodily Injury: 100k per person/300k per accident
Property Damage: 100k
Uninsured Motorist BI: 100k per person/300k per accident
Underinsured Motorist: 100k per person/300k per accident
Comprehensive Deductable: $500
Collision Deductable: $500
My quote for that level of insurance is $683.60 for six months, or $117.94 per month. That monthly fee represents about seven hours of work a month for me. Is that not a good deal? Why is American Family's quote for those amounts nearly triple that amount? I doublechecked everything, it's all the same amounts of coverage.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Also, for insurance, the price goes down based a lot on how long you are driving. In Massachusetts, you will see rate drops at 3 and 6 years assuming you don't cause a major accident, drive drunk, etc.
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
it may have to do with the 'tort' coverage that they offer. basically it has to do with wether or not you can sue someone else or if you are covered if they sue you.
Geico is a top tier provider, I wouldn't have any problems using them.
That quote is pretty good, I carry the same protection levels and get a bit lower rate on a more expensive car, probably because I'm 30+ and been with them for 10+ years. The quote is in keeping with a male driver who's 25+, good credit, no accidents. I cannot say why the other insurer is so much higher (though I doubt you'll get much better rate). This is why it's good to shop around, cause sometimes the rates differ wildly. 2-3 years ago when I asked for quotes from Progressive, just to see how mine compared, they quoted me more than 3X what I'm billed by State Farm.
You could lower your rate by increasing you deductible to $1K. Also look into rental coverage (they provide a rental in case your car gets into an accident and has to be in shop for repairs, though if you ride to work you may not need this), and tow coverage (pays for having your wrecked car towed to shop in case you're in accident and car is not driveable to shop).
Basically it comes down to (for me at least) oversteer being easier to correct and avoid then understeer, even though oversteer is more dangerous.
Of course I've seen a suburu forester dogwalk right over a mail box and a stop sign before so it always comes down to the driver like usual
As another male driver who's 25 with no accident/ticket history, that's right about what I'm paying with Geico as well, allowing for different coverage options. I've never had a problem (though I haven't ever actually required anything); my parents have had no complaints about their customer service in the past
Next question is about haggling with dealerships. Let's say there's a dealership wanting 13,900 for a used Charger. What sort of discount from that sticker/advertised/asking price would be expected? What should I push for? Someone said the used car market sucks right now; does that mean I can get a bigger discount or lesser?
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Right, and this driver is 27 and has been driving for less than a year, which is why a bunch of us have recommended that he avoid it. I have driven a rear-wheel drive car in the snow after having driven in the winter a lot. It sucks. I'm sure it's fine if you have been driving them your whole life - but this person hasn't.
Front-wheel drive is superior to rear because you have more weight over the drive wheels once you're already in motion (rear-wheel drive puts more weight over the drive wheels during acceleration, hence why it's still in muscle cars) and because it makes it harder to oversteer and spin the car.
(1) You'll achieve the best results if you are willing to leave the dealership without the car. If you have your heart set on that car on that lot, then your negotiating power will be hindered. If the dealership won't meet you at a price you're comfortable with, get up and walk out. Unless your offer was completely unacceptable, they'll probably stop you before you reach the parking lot.
(2) There are two dollar amounts to keep in mind when buying a car: (i) the price of the car and (ii) the out-the-door price, which includes tax, title, license, and perhaps a few other fees. Title and license will probably run you around $100-$500, depending on your state; unless you're in a state with no sales tax, tax will probably be 4-8% of the price of the car. It is to your benefit to run a quick calculation what you'll have to pay for the car at the sticker price. Example: If the sticker is $13,900, then in Indiana the out-the-door price would be (($13,900 * 1.07) + about $200) = ~$15K.
(3) When haggling, feel free to switch between offers of price (i) and price (ii). Doing so will keep the dealer on their toes. Example: If the sticker price of the car is $13,900, make a first offer of $12,000. Then, when the dealer comes back at $13,500, make an offer of $13,500 out the door. If he rejects that, go back to offering $12,500 for the car alone. And so on.
(4) Unless you have reason to think that the dealership has the car priced well below what it is really worth, make your first offer somewhere between 80-85% of the sticker price. If you can get to a place where your out-the-door price is approximately the original sticker price, you've probably done well.
Edit: Be prepared to spend all afternoon at the dealership. They'll try to get you to lose your patience and accept any offer just to get out of there. Take a book or your DS to pass the time while they leave you sitting for 30 minutes at a time in an empty office.
I still honestly recommand you go for a different car for your first, but a few things in terms of the actual purchasing of the car
First, before even heading to the dealer, check the Kelley Blue Book for pricing.
Have the dealer print you a fresh copy of the vehicle's CarFax report.
"Knowledge is power; guard it well"
And as my father told me, one of the most important things about negotiating a deal is to know when to walk away from it. As Hedgethorn mentioned, you really want that car. Don't let your emotions cloud your judgement over a business transaction.
Edit: Also, consider the side airbag option.
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
You can also say how long you want the car loan to be for (5 years max usually) and how much you will pay a month. For example...say you get this charger and you want to pay an 8th of your monthy paycheck for it. Make your initial offer at 1/10th or 1/12th of the paycheck.
Also be wary of how much you pay in interest. Assuming your credit is ok you should be fine.
If you do go with the charger, go to a parkinglot once it snows and practice in the snow to get used to your rear wheel drive, also practice on ice if you can.
Be safe and good luck.
I understand what you're getting at, but I'm 22. I was 16 when I had the first Thunderbird. All I'm hinting at is that it might be worth learning. And I certainly wouldn't buy a Taurus over anything for that reason alone. :P Also it's good practice to keep salt in the trunk anyways, which solves the weight issue. Even a first time driver with a good head on his/her shoulders can go without any incident. Maybe my mother being a CDL examiner has a bigger impact then my driving performance then I imagine, but in the two times I went in the ditch, I was definitely fucking around and being stupid on the dirt roads in front of the ranch my mother works at. I guess you just have to "care" about driving.
Oh and don't ever pay what a dealer is asking for a used car, ever.
YES. They'll say whatever they can to sell you the car, seriously. The sales guy I recently dealt with for our used car told us that each dealership has one salesman that doesn't work on commission... and guess what... it happened to be him, so he was just here to get us a great deal. Yeah, right. You need to pretty much ignore the bullshit. There's no reason to try and call them on it, but you need to be able to recognize it for what it is.
In addition to the Kelly Blue Book, check out Edmunds.com as they have another pricing calculator. I've seen different views of which is closer to "correct" because they do differ, but it doesn't hurt to have both. And as suggested, ask the dealer for a carfax report for any car you're looking at -- or if you're going to be doing extensive online shopping first, you can get like a 1-month unlimited Carfax account for 39.99 (hmm... I swear it was 29.99 just a few months ago...).
Also, if you're seriously looking at a car, try to get it inspected by an independent mechanic before buying. Just ask the dealer before you take it for a test drive.
Trust me, I lived there for years. You want something FWD at least. The streets I lived on (Wrigleyville, and later Lincoln Park) would get plowed maybe a week after a major snowfall, if ever. I don't care how good your tires are, a Charger is going to get stuck in four inches of snow, which will come down 2 or 3 times a year.
Also, drive a bunch more cars especially if this is your first purchase.
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted in this thread. With your advice, I was able to find and buy a very nice 2008 Charger with 16k miles and a bunch of additional safely features like brake assist (this has already triggered once and it's cool as hell), electronic stability program, traction control, etc etc. Hopefully all that technological crap will help me learn to drive RWD in Chicago in the coming months, lol.
I got a good deal from the dealership too, and last but certainly not least, I absolutely love the car. My dad likes it too
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]