I dunno how I missed so much exp on Englund. Everyone says it is so easy, but I have done everything I can find in all of the t3 areas (minus the PvP "Kill 20 IBs" type quests). I also did not find any Epic quests while zone hopping. And from lvls 26-27 I Almost did no scenarios on her, which is the only way I can figure I missed out on so much but others are saying just doing all the Qs in t3 will get you to t4 no problem.
She is 29/22rr and Harrower is 26/21. Also, Harrower has a piece of Devastator. The boots. Where are the other 4? Wardb makes me think the chest is dropped from gold keep bag and the other two i can buy somewhere?
off to stats. omgomgomg. just think about killin' stunties.
She is 29/22rr and Harrower is 26/21. Also, Harrower has a piece of Devastator. The boots. Where are the other 4? Wardb makes me think the chest is dropped from gold keep bag and the other two i can buy somewhere?
off to stats. omgomgomg. just think about killin' stunties.
The boots are a drop, the chest is indeed from the gold bag in a keep raid, and the shoulders and gloves can be bought from renown gear merchants.
She is 29/22rr and Harrower is 26/21. Also, Harrower has a piece of Devastator. The boots. Where are the other 4? Wardb makes me think the chest is dropped from gold keep bag and the other two i can buy somewhere?
off to stats. omgomgomg. just think about killin' stunties.
The Devastator chest is a Keep Lord drop, while you can buy the gloves and shoulders from renown vendors in T3 keeps as long as you have a high enough RR. You need to be at least 29/26RR to sport the whole set, though.
Edit: Beated. Beated so hard. Although FWIW, you can also buy the boots on the AH sometimes, as they are BOE not BOP. I actually have a spare set of the Devastator Thighbinds I'm going to AH, unless anyone here (and on REM) wants dibs.
Lawndart on
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GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
I've officially discovered that I DESPISE Mourkain's Temple and Stonetroll Crossing, and that Phoenix Gate will never queue while I'm logged in.
How come? Phoenix Gate is probably the most terrible game of capture the flag I've ever played. The flags are way too far apart, and there aren't a lot of interesting strategies on either offense or defense side of things. More often than not, people don't even bother going for the flag; they just meet in the middle to beat the crap out of each other, and after 15 minutes the score ends 56 to 35. As a result, the time/reward ratio is total bollocks. I hate when PG pops, because most of the time it's a disorganized clusterfuck.
I can understand getting frustrated with MT, though the meet-in-the-middle-and-kill-each-other gameplay is much more conducisive tot he football mentality. And actually, I give mythic a lot of credit for Stonetroll. With a good group, it's incredibly fun.
The trick with the Phoenix Gate flags is to remember that there is no flag. If you just run around with two other players, and gank the shit out of the poor saps on the opposing team that are haplessly guarding their flag, but never actually touch the flag, you can end up with 20k+ xp per round pretty easily.
If the best strategy for playing a scenario is not adhereing to the rules of the scenario, then it is a colossal failure.
MT already encourages beating the crap out of people and following the rules of the game. I'm sure I can get more experience/renown in 15 minutes of MT than I could in 15 minutes of PG. The reason? MT games are over in 5-6 minutes. PG games are over in 15.
Yes, but in some people's opinions, small tactical battles are more fun than ZERG TEH CENTERS. Also, the real problem with the time/reward for Phoenix gate is the queue time, it takes for damned ever to get into a PG game on the two servers I play. Otherwise, at least the way I play, a 5-6 minute game ends up being 10k xp (since it's rough to get tons of high contribution kills when your zerg is rolling the opposing zerg) and a 15 minute PG is 20k, so the time/reward would be similar if the games popped quickly.
Sure. I'm not playing this game just to optimize my exp/renown per minute played. That'd be ridiculous, and I've never played MMOs that way (at least, not my first character). Bottom line, I'm here because I want to participate in epic battles against other players.
As I said before, roving bands of skirmishers battling across the plains of PG is not the point of that particular scenario, fun as it may be. It also takes coordination to organize that; both Destruction and Order sides need to be on board with that kind of play, otherwise it's not going to happen in your favor. And again, I can see why people might hate MT, especially if you're dealing with lag issues. I just think that as a scenario option, it achieves its goals far better than PG.
Don't misunderstand me. I enjoy tactics. I enjoy skirmishes. I love the thrill of shooting through the flanks of my enemies and putting the hurt on their healers. But if I'm participating in a scenario, generally I'm trying to complete the goals of the scenario in addition to killing other players. In PG, there is nothing about the scenario that encourages you to participate towards its goals. So I don't really know what to make of that, other than to call it a pretty crappy scenario.
Sure. I'm not playing this game just to optimize my exp/renown per minute played. That'd be ridiculous, and I've never played MMOs that way (at least, not my first character). Bottom line, I'm here because I want to participate in epic battles against other players.
As I said before, roving bands of skirmishers battling across the plains of PG is not the point of that particular scenario, fun as it may be. It also takes coordination to organize that; both Destruction and Order sides need to be on board with that kind of play, otherwise it's not going to happen in your favor. And again, I can see why people might hate MT, especially if you're dealing with lag issues. I just think that as a scenario option, it achieves its goals far better than PG.
Don't misunderstand me. I enjoy tactics. I enjoy skirmishes. I love the thrill of shooting through the flanks of my enemies and putting the hurt on their healers. But if I'm participating in a scenario, generally I'm trying to complete the goals of the scenario in addition to killing other players. In PG, there is nothing about the scenario that encourages you to participate towards its goals. So I don't really know what to make of that, other than to call it a pretty crappy scenario.
Seriously though, Phoenix gate rules.
It's the one map where people just go ape shit with killing each other and don't focus much on the flags.
Plus I always end up with ridiculous experience and damage/heals.
Who gives a shit about experience/renown when you just had 15 minutes of pure carnage and you don't have to wait for more scenerios to pop. I don't know I love the map personally.
But if I'm participating in a scenario, generally I'm trying to complete the goals of the scenario in addition to killing other players. In PG, there is nothing about the scenario that encourages you to participate towards its goals. So I don't really know what to make of that, other than to call it a pretty crappy scenario.
Just watch wargames to get you in the frame of mind you need to be in to make CTF work for you in phoenix gate.
Phoenix Gate is OK, although it's been popping way too much on Badlands lately. I like it more as a break from Mourkain's than a regular thing. The thing about PG and Stonetroll is that accomplishing their goals effectively is helped a lot by organization--and since that can be hard to come by in a PUG, these usually degenerate into skirmishes. They also end up with a lot more running than Mourkain's, and that's not much fun. Especially if you run for 2 minutes, then get focus fired in your first combat.
I like to play the scenario for fun first too, although with the current setup your 'bonus' for a 42-34 victory in PG feels kind of cheap after 15 minutes of play. :P Fortunately with PG I often see at least one flag capture, wish I could say the same for Blackfire.
Stonetroll is a pain. Either you're winning and all you're doing is running after the carrier, picking off sole enemy players (because the map is so large that if people try to group up they'll never catch the runner), or you're losing and just end up running from the spawnpoint to get killed over and over.
If both groups are well organized you almost never cap all 3 in Stonetroll because, well, it's pretty easy to guess the last spot you're going to. Fortunately for my renown and xp there are often enough one-man-army wannabes that a 3 cap is possible.
Stonetroll is a pain. Either you're winning and all you're doing is running after the carrier, picking off sole enemy players (because the map is so large that if people try to group up they'll never catch the runner), or you're losing and just end up running from the spawnpoint to get killed over and over.
Compared to Pheonix gate though, at least you have a better chance of getting more exp/rp.
I'd prefer mourkain over all others since it's a kill fest.
Plus, it's usually over with before the 15 minutes is up, whereas stonetroll usually takes most the time and phoenix gate almost never finishes below 15 minutes.
Stonetroll is a pain. Either you're winning and all you're doing is running after the carrier, picking off sole enemy players (because the map is so large that if people try to group up they'll never catch the runner), or you're losing and just end up running from the spawnpoint to get killed over and over.
I don't even bother queuing for Stonetroll anymore. Winning or losing, it's just not fun.
I'm fond of Phoenix Gate, although the pathing around the bridges really fucks up my pets. I'm beginning to like Mourkain more and more, but it seems to be the most temperamental of the T2 scenarios. It's rarely close. And if you're losing, it's usually very frustrating.
Of course, I may be unusually positive, because despite a week-long streak of having my ass handed to me in Mourkain, I just came off of this match:
(I'm Raaagh)
EDIT: And now looking at the levels of people in that scenario, I'm feeling that 61k damage is quite a bit less impressive.
Both Northernwatch and Mourkain went from fun to boring to fun for me. It's amazing how a night of queuing for other scenarios changes one's opinion of them once you realize just how unrewarding a lot of them feel.
Grats on the deathblow count S3, it's always fun to see that. I have to cringe for Order though, I count 12 names with 0 healers.
They started the match with an AM and a RP, but I guess they both dropped or something. I'm not sure. I know my squig took out that AM. I was laughing quite a bit over that one.
I'd also like to extend my thanks to Siya and Artuton for kindly providing most of my deathblows.
Fucking white lions.
s3rial one on
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited December 2008
didn't see it answered, but tor anroc is inside of a volcano
Stonetroll is a pain. Either you're winning and all you're doing is running after the carrier, picking off sole enemy players (because the map is so large that if people try to group up they'll never catch the runner), or you're losing and just end up running from the spawnpoint to get killed over and over.
The trick to stonetroll games where you feel like you're just running around with the flag carrier without seeing any opposing players is to just take you and whoever you queued up with to the opposing spawn point. You'll kill a few people, then more people will start respawning, and then you'll kill them, and then more people will start respawning, until eventually you get overwhelmed in a 10 vs you showdown.
This is pretty much the case in any scenario, really. If you aren't seeing opposing players, put your little band into a vulnerable position where you'll eventually lose. You end up with tons more kills as the offensive mounts up, and it encourages the other side to keep playing since they (usually) recognize a winnable fight.
Both Northernwatch and Mourkain went from fun to boring to fun for me. It's amazing how a night of queuing for other scenarios changes one's opinion of them once you realize just how unrewarding a lot of them feel.
It's true, after doing all of them enough I tend to settle down and enjoy the ones that really feel like you get 'paid back' for playing when you queue up. I'm happy there's only one in each tier so far that I'd rather not play so far (outside of T4, where I've only really played Serpent's enough to have an opinion).
Also s3, if you hate WL now, regular helpings of pounce and fetch will bring you to new levels of rage. Heck, even a lot of WLs think fetch is cheap.
Also s3, if you hate WL now, regular helpings of pounce and fetch will bring you to new levels of rage. Heck, even a lot of WLs think fetch is cheap.
My fingers are crossed that Fetch receives the savage beating at the hands of the nerf bat that it so richly deserves. As for Brutal Pounce, my squiqs will have a disgustingly overpowered PBAE build-up debuff (+5 seconds!), an ability that knocks me back and taunts everything around the squig, and a disarm. I can dish it out, too.
In fact, Fetch aside, I really feel like WLs got the short end of the pet stick. Squigs are way more versatile.
...and cooler.
I mean, really, who would you rather have on your side? Some poncy elf that braids the hair of his over-weight house cat when he's not frolicking or shopping for stupid hats?
Or a giant, stupid, angry, bipedal mouth full of teeth and spikes that thinks white lions are food?
Both Northernwatch and Mourkain went from fun to boring to fun for me. It's amazing how a night of queuing for other scenarios changes one's opinion of them once you realize just how unrewarding a lot of them feel.
This. I am loving Khaine's Embrace now. Had quite a bit of fun rolling Blackguards in Gates of Eckrund as well.
Also s3, if you hate WL now, regular helpings of pounce and fetch will bring you to new levels of rage. Heck, even a lot of WLs think fetch is cheap.
Oh, Fetch is cheap. It is also about the only thing WLs really have going for them. I mean, being a one trick pony, who gets their trick at 40, is a bad class design. Even if that trick is OPed.
The uses for Fetch however are legion. You can peel enemy MDPS. You can pull sorcs/healers/magi/SHs into a deathtrap. You can pull annoying spawn campers into insta-gib guard deaths. Pulling people off flag runners is good too. I am sure my WL inspires his fair share of rage in scenarios now.
For the record, I also hate the abundance of CC in general in this game and the Marauder pull is pretty much just as cheap. So Fetch is one entry in a long list of things I find cheap currently.
So yeah, if they give Fetch the nerf it so richly deserves without actually making WLs not suck in general I will not be a happy camper. Levels 21-39 were pretty much frustrating as hell.
Also s3, if you hate WL now, regular helpings of pounce and fetch will bring you to new levels of rage. Heck, even a lot of WLs think fetch is cheap.
Oh, Fetch is cheap. It is also about the only thing WLs really have going for them. I mean, being a one trick pony, who gets their trick at 40, is a bad class design. Even if that trick is OPed.
The uses for Fetch however are legion. You can peel enemy MDPS. You can pull sorcs/healers/magi/SHs into a deathtrap. You can pull annoying spawn campers into insta-gib guard deaths. Pulling people off flag runners is good too. I am sure my WL inspires his fair share of rage in scenarios now.
For the record, I also hate the abundance of CC in general in this game and the Marauder pull is pretty much just as cheap. So Fetch is one entry in a long list of things I find cheap currently.
So yeah, if they give Fetch the nerf it so richly deserves without actually making WLs not suck in general I will not be a happy camper. Levels 21-39 were pretty much frustrating as hell.
I don't know, being unkiteable seems like a pretty good trick too.
The Marauder one has the advantage of not being tied to a pet that can die from incidental AOE and can pull people off walls. They both have advantages and drawbacks--even if you can say one is 'better' than the other, I think we can agree that being pulled solo into a whole group of the other side sucks
Marauder version doesn't rely on a shitty pet that is dead at least half the time and often cannot fetch if the target just keeps moving? Plus the Marauder has a non-morale CC that can be used to actually keep people briefly in place after the pull. It used to be able to pull off keep walls but I think they changed that in 1.06 (not positive on that).
I mean, they both have some advantages and disadvantages and I can even be convinced that the WL incarnation is better, if you are willing to admit virtually everything else about the Marauder is vastly superior. But they are both cheap. It isn't as though I haven't been embraced into a group of Destro countless times.
And WLs are somewhat hard to kite, but it certainly isn't impossible. Pounce doesn't land you very close to the target if they are moving and at that point you are basically praying that you have charge/root morale up and (if they are RDPS) that your root break is up as well. A good WL will probably catch a runner, but it is sort of cold comfort since pouncing at most backline targets is instant death anyhow and RDPS has a tendancy to stick together. WLs have no ability to disable people aside from arguably fetch and they have no inherent resistance to getting just nuked down.
The Marauder one has the advantage of not being tied to a pet that can die from incidental AOE and can pull people off walls. They both have advantages and drawbacks--even if you can say one is 'better' than the other, I think we can agree that being pulled solo into a whole group of the other side sucks
The difference, it seems, is that a white lion can do this without exposing himself to any damage at all. If a marauder's close enough to snag you, he's close enough to shoot.
Take a look at the last minute or so of that video I linked.
Like you said, each has pros and cons, but the range on Fetch is just out of control. It ought to be reduced to 65' too.
The Marauder one has the advantage of not being tied to a pet that can die from incidental AOE and can pull people off walls. They both have advantages and drawbacks--even if you can say one is 'better' than the other, I think we can agree that being pulled solo into a whole group of the other side sucks
The difference, it seems, is that a white lion can do this without exposing himself to any damage at all. If a marauder's close enough to snag you, he's close enough to shoot.
Take a look at the last minute or so of that video I linked.
Like you said, each has pros and cons, but the range on Fetch is just out of control. It ought to be reduced to 65' too.
First, it is pretty rare to be able to fetch exactly who you want without being exposed to damage. I mean I am sure you can theorycraft some scenario where everyone is standing in neat lines like the revolutionary war and the WLs just run up and pluck people from the front, but it just doesn't play out like that often.
And a youtube video is terrible proof. People don't tend to include the sections where they are face down because a sorc disarm/nuked them down while they were trying to get a kill.
Changing it to 65' would be almost strictly inferior to the Marauder at that point, I would take a 2s cast over dealing with the lion any day. It also wouldn't remove the problems with pulls, it would just make them slightly less apparent. They would do better to just remove them both and probably magnet as well since being pulled without any control is unfun and a recipe for frustration and abuse. And then bring the WL up to snuff as a viable class outside of a fetch-bot.
It should be reduced to 100, not to 65 or it will be useless. I think people don't quite understand how easy the lion dies, or how utterly useless it is against a decent opponent. As for cast times, the lion does not just magically appear at an enemy, it takes a few seconds (many seconds at long ranges) to reach the target, especially if you don't have your lion speedtrained. The lion also does not work with keep warfare, where the marauder version does.
The Marauder one has the advantage of not being tied to a pet that can die from incidental AOE and can pull people off walls. They both have advantages and drawbacks--even if you can say one is 'better' than the other, I think we can agree that being pulled solo into a whole group of the other side sucks
Looking at it from a design PoV, it's a great way to break a turtle. Also, it mixes things up a bit other than who has the best defended backline & the most ranged DPS firing from it. If anything the marauder version should be buffed with a 100 yd. range on it.
The Marauder one has the advantage of not being tied to a pet that can die from incidental AOE and can pull people off walls. They both have advantages and drawbacks--even if you can say one is 'better' than the other, I think we can agree that being pulled solo into a whole group of the other side sucks
Looking at it from a design PoV, it's a great way to break a turtle. Also, it mixes things up a bit other than who has the best defended backline & the most ranged DPS firing from it. If anything the marauder version should be buffed with a 100 yd. range on it.
Except if you want to break turtles, adding an ability like fetch is terrible. First, it doesn't give anyone any incentive not to clump up. They are going to get fetched whether they are together or seperate. In fact they are more likely to be fetched if they aren't together because you won't have other people to kill/taunt the lion en route. And it opens up so many potential sources of abuse.
Equalizing the ranges on WLs and Marauders is a terrible idea. You are just nerfing WLs vis-a-vis its mirror, when it is already weak, and not addressing the fundamental problems with pulls.
Equalizing the ranges on WLs and Marauders is a terrible idea. You are just nerfing WLs vis-a-vis its mirror, when it is already weak, and not addressing the fundamental problems with pulls.
It needs some trade-off for the WL being completely out of danger for an ability that's damned-near 100% fatal to the squishies on the other side.
150' range wouldn't feel bad on a 1m cooldown, but 10s is too much.
Another idea may be a time duration; if the lion doesn't get to the target in a given time, it doesn't fetch. There are just too many classes that don't have any defense to that ability even if they know it's coming. Allowing snares, roots, and knockbacks to defend against it would be a welcome change.
Equalizing the ranges on WLs and Marauders is a terrible idea. You are just nerfing WLs vis-a-vis its mirror, when it is already weak, and not addressing the fundamental problems with pulls.
It needs some trade-off for the WL being completely out of danger for an ability that's damned-near 100% fatal to the squishies on the other side.
150' range wouldn't feel bad on a 1m cooldown, but 10s is too much.
Another idea may be a time duration; if the lion doesn't get to the target in a given time, it doesn't fetch. There are just too many classes that don't have any defense to that ability even if they know it's coming. Allowing snares, roots, and knockbacks to defend against it would be a welcome change.
What? The lion already has a time limit in all practicality. It dies to a stiff wind and if it is covorting around the backline going after a runner it will frequently be dead before you can fetch, especially since there are LOS restrictions on the ability. And snares, roots and knockbacks all do effect lions. Far more than players even, since they don't have a break outside of an ability high up in a largely worthless mastery line.
The solution is not to make it 65' range. It is to remove it entirely and give the WLs and possibly Marauders something else to compensate and allow them to perform a valid, effective role. It is one of those abilities that will either be totally overpowered or pretty much useless and I don't think there is much middle ground.
The solution is not to make it 65' range. It is to remove it entirely and give the WLs and possibly Marauders something else to compensate and allow them to perform a valid, effective role. It is one of those abilities that will either be totally overpowered or pretty much useless and I don't think there is much middle ground.
I think I'd be a lot cooler with it staying if they just upped the recharge to something like 120 seconds for both classes.
But yeah, I agree. It's pretty overpowered in both cases. The marauder version at least gives you a chance to attack the marauder, though.
Posts
off to stats. omgomgomg. just think about killin' stunties.
The boots are a drop, the chest is indeed from the gold bag in a keep raid, and the shoulders and gloves can be bought from renown gear merchants.
The Devastator chest is a Keep Lord drop, while you can buy the gloves and shoulders from renown vendors in T3 keeps as long as you have a high enough RR. You need to be at least 29/26RR to sport the whole set, though.
Edit: Beated. Beated so hard. Although FWIW, you can also buy the boots on the AH sometimes, as they are BOE not BOP. I actually have a spare set of the Devastator Thighbinds I'm going to AH, unless anyone here (and on REM) wants dibs.
Sure. I'm not playing this game just to optimize my exp/renown per minute played. That'd be ridiculous, and I've never played MMOs that way (at least, not my first character). Bottom line, I'm here because I want to participate in epic battles against other players.
As I said before, roving bands of skirmishers battling across the plains of PG is not the point of that particular scenario, fun as it may be. It also takes coordination to organize that; both Destruction and Order sides need to be on board with that kind of play, otherwise it's not going to happen in your favor. And again, I can see why people might hate MT, especially if you're dealing with lag issues. I just think that as a scenario option, it achieves its goals far better than PG.
Don't misunderstand me. I enjoy tactics. I enjoy skirmishes. I love the thrill of shooting through the flanks of my enemies and putting the hurt on their healers. But if I'm participating in a scenario, generally I'm trying to complete the goals of the scenario in addition to killing other players. In PG, there is nothing about the scenario that encourages you to participate towards its goals. So I don't really know what to make of that, other than to call it a pretty crappy scenario.
PSN: Threeve703
It's the one map where people just go ape shit with killing each other and don't focus much on the flags.
Plus I always end up with ridiculous experience and damage/heals.
Who gives a shit about experience/renown when you just had 15 minutes of pure carnage and you don't have to wait for more scenerios to pop. I don't know I love the map personally.
Just watch wargames to get you in the frame of mind you need to be in to make CTF work for you in phoenix gate.
I like to play the scenario for fun first too, although with the current setup your 'bonus' for a 42-34 victory in PG feels kind of cheap after 15 minutes of play. :P Fortunately with PG I often see at least one flag capture, wish I could say the same for Blackfire.
Compared to Pheonix gate though, at least you have a better chance of getting more exp/rp.
I'd prefer mourkain over all others since it's a kill fest.
Plus, it's usually over with before the 15 minutes is up, whereas stonetroll usually takes most the time and phoenix gate almost never finishes below 15 minutes.
I don't even bother queuing for Stonetroll anymore. Winning or losing, it's just not fun.
I'm fond of Phoenix Gate, although the pathing around the bridges really fucks up my pets. I'm beginning to like Mourkain more and more, but it seems to be the most temperamental of the T2 scenarios. It's rarely close. And if you're losing, it's usually very frustrating.
Of course, I may be unusually positive, because despite a week-long streak of having my ass handed to me in Mourkain, I just came off of this match:
(I'm Raaagh)
EDIT: And now looking at the levels of people in that scenario, I'm feeling that 61k damage is quite a bit less impressive.
Oh well, it was a fun match.
They started the match with an AM and a RP, but I guess they both dropped or something. I'm not sure. I know my squig took out that AM. I was laughing quite a bit over that one.
I'd also like to extend my thanks to Siya and Artuton for kindly providing most of my deathblows.
Fucking white lions.
The trick to stonetroll games where you feel like you're just running around with the flag carrier without seeing any opposing players is to just take you and whoever you queued up with to the opposing spawn point. You'll kill a few people, then more people will start respawning, and then you'll kill them, and then more people will start respawning, until eventually you get overwhelmed in a 10 vs you showdown.
This is pretty much the case in any scenario, really. If you aren't seeing opposing players, put your little band into a vulnerable position where you'll eventually lose. You end up with tons more kills as the offensive mounts up, and it encourages the other side to keep playing since they (usually) recognize a winnable fight.
It's true, after doing all of them enough I tend to settle down and enjoy the ones that really feel like you get 'paid back' for playing when you queue up. I'm happy there's only one in each tier so far that I'd rather not play so far (outside of T4, where I've only really played Serpent's enough to have an opinion).
Also s3, if you hate WL now, regular helpings of pounce and fetch will bring you to new levels of rage. Heck, even a lot of WLs think fetch is cheap.
My fingers are crossed that Fetch receives the savage beating at the hands of the nerf bat that it so richly deserves. As for Brutal Pounce, my squiqs will have a disgustingly overpowered PBAE build-up debuff (+5 seconds!), an ability that knocks me back and taunts everything around the squig, and a disarm. I can dish it out, too.
In fact, Fetch aside, I really feel like WLs got the short end of the pet stick. Squigs are way more versatile.
...and cooler.
I mean, really, who would you rather have on your side? Some poncy elf that braids the hair of his over-weight house cat when he's not frolicking or shopping for stupid hats?
Or a giant, stupid, angry, bipedal mouth full of teeth and spikes that thinks white lions are food?
THIS IS NOT A DIFFICULT DECISION
This. I am loving Khaine's Embrace now. Had quite a bit of fun rolling Blackguards in Gates of Eckrund as well.
Oh, Fetch is cheap. It is also about the only thing WLs really have going for them. I mean, being a one trick pony, who gets their trick at 40, is a bad class design. Even if that trick is OPed.
The uses for Fetch however are legion. You can peel enemy MDPS. You can pull sorcs/healers/magi/SHs into a deathtrap. You can pull annoying spawn campers into insta-gib guard deaths. Pulling people off flag runners is good too. I am sure my WL inspires his fair share of rage in scenarios now.
For the record, I also hate the abundance of CC in general in this game and the Marauder pull is pretty much just as cheap. So Fetch is one entry in a long list of things I find cheap currently.
So yeah, if they give Fetch the nerf it so richly deserves without actually making WLs not suck in general I will not be a happy camper. Levels 21-39 were pretty much frustrating as hell.
I don't know, being unkiteable seems like a pretty good trick too.
o_O
So, same AP cost, same cooldown, but the Marauder version has a 2s cast time and less than half the range and it's "pretty much just as cheap?"
Uh... that'd be a no.
EDIT:
Fetch, for those who don't know
I mean, they both have some advantages and disadvantages and I can even be convinced that the WL incarnation is better, if you are willing to admit virtually everything else about the Marauder is vastly superior. But they are both cheap. It isn't as though I haven't been embraced into a group of Destro countless times.
And WLs are somewhat hard to kite, but it certainly isn't impossible. Pounce doesn't land you very close to the target if they are moving and at that point you are basically praying that you have charge/root morale up and (if they are RDPS) that your root break is up as well. A good WL will probably catch a runner, but it is sort of cold comfort since pouncing at most backline targets is instant death anyhow and RDPS has a tendancy to stick together. WLs have no ability to disable people aside from arguably fetch and they have no inherent resistance to getting just nuked down.
The difference, it seems, is that a white lion can do this without exposing himself to any damage at all. If a marauder's close enough to snag you, he's close enough to shoot.
Take a look at the last minute or so of that video I linked.
Like you said, each has pros and cons, but the range on Fetch is just out of control. It ought to be reduced to 65' too.
First, it is pretty rare to be able to fetch exactly who you want without being exposed to damage. I mean I am sure you can theorycraft some scenario where everyone is standing in neat lines like the revolutionary war and the WLs just run up and pluck people from the front, but it just doesn't play out like that often.
And a youtube video is terrible proof. People don't tend to include the sections where they are face down because a sorc disarm/nuked them down while they were trying to get a kill.
Changing it to 65' would be almost strictly inferior to the Marauder at that point, I would take a 2s cast over dealing with the lion any day. It also wouldn't remove the problems with pulls, it would just make them slightly less apparent. They would do better to just remove them both and probably magnet as well since being pulled without any control is unfun and a recipe for frustration and abuse. And then bring the WL up to snuff as a viable class outside of a fetch-bot.
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
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fixed
Looking at it from a design PoV, it's a great way to break a turtle. Also, it mixes things up a bit other than who has the best defended backline & the most ranged DPS firing from it. If anything the marauder version should be buffed with a 100 yd. range on it.
it would be terrible.
Except if you want to break turtles, adding an ability like fetch is terrible. First, it doesn't give anyone any incentive not to clump up. They are going to get fetched whether they are together or seperate. In fact they are more likely to be fetched if they aren't together because you won't have other people to kill/taunt the lion en route. And it opens up so many potential sources of abuse.
Equalizing the ranges on WLs and Marauders is a terrible idea. You are just nerfing WLs vis-a-vis its mirror, when it is already weak, and not addressing the fundamental problems with pulls.
It needs some trade-off for the WL being completely out of danger for an ability that's damned-near 100% fatal to the squishies on the other side.
150' range wouldn't feel bad on a 1m cooldown, but 10s is too much.
Another idea may be a time duration; if the lion doesn't get to the target in a given time, it doesn't fetch. There are just too many classes that don't have any defense to that ability even if they know it's coming. Allowing snares, roots, and knockbacks to defend against it would be a welcome change.
What? The lion already has a time limit in all practicality. It dies to a stiff wind and if it is covorting around the backline going after a runner it will frequently be dead before you can fetch, especially since there are LOS restrictions on the ability. And snares, roots and knockbacks all do effect lions. Far more than players even, since they don't have a break outside of an ability high up in a largely worthless mastery line.
The solution is not to make it 65' range. It is to remove it entirely and give the WLs and possibly Marauders something else to compensate and allow them to perform a valid, effective role. It is one of those abilities that will either be totally overpowered or pretty much useless and I don't think there is much middle ground.
I think I'd be a lot cooler with it staying if they just upped the recharge to something like 120 seconds for both classes.
But yeah, I agree. It's pretty overpowered in both cases. The marauder version at least gives you a chance to attack the marauder, though.